Go ahead....KNOCK YOURSELF OUT!

[RMulhern]

If one were to go back over all the postings that have been made here pertaining to the shooting of BPC rifles, it would probably be discovered that one of the most often asked questions would be..."How do I solve the fouling issue? Should I wipe or use a blow-tube?" My answer to that would be...maybe neither one! And now you're thinking...."Mulhern....have you blown your cork?" No....not quite...but I am a guy that is willing to listen to what someone else with more experience has conveyed to me and willing to put my pride in my back pocket to give their idea a try! Now...it's not my intention with this posting to shoot down any of the presently used methods being utilized by the dedicated long range shooting crowd or to blow off their method of wiping betwixt each round fired...if that's what they're doing. But I will relate to a little test that I conducted a couple of days back during good weather. Let me digress just a moment and say that of all the folks that visit this forum, or other BPCR sites...even though we all own like rifles....what we use them for may be totally different...which somewhat relates to how important it is toward what method/methods we may use for controlling blackpowder fouling! Some of us are both shooters in LR and gong events and others are hunters and 'home shooters' like onto myself. For the last several years I have been an advocate of wiping between shots and most of my experience has been with the 45 2 7/8 and the 50 2 1/2 cartridges shooting nothing but PP bullets. I've got a rifle that Kirk Bryan just installed another barrel on, one in which he cut a 7* leade chamber for a while back and the test I conducted two days back was seeing just how many rounds I could fire without wiping and what kind of problems I'd have in doing so. My patched bullets (BACO Money Bullet) have an OD of .4465" at 1-40 alloy and the load was 102 grs. KIK 2F using a Black Magic lube cookie of .240" thickness, with a .060" VW atop the powder and adjacent the bullet base. Bullets seated .160" into FL resized Norma cases. I was firing on the 200 yd. Schuetzen tgt., the one that has a 6" bull and I fired 34 rounds without wiping or using a blow-tube. Accuracy was pretty darn good I might add....which surprised me. I would have taken a photo but my camera is on the blink and I detest trying to use the camera on my phone; doesn't have a flash and it was getting late under dark clouds and overcast skies threatening to rain on me. But at any rate out of all shots fired I had 7 rounds which struck the 25 ring, 12 rounds hit the 24 ring, 9 rounds in the 23 ring, remainder in 22 and 21 ring which were first few fired. Now...is this average MOA?? By no means BUT.....it's way better than I expected and since most hunting shots are under 150 yards I do believe that most would have been a MOA deer or elk! What I'm getting at here is that all bullets fired were .0035" UNDER bore diameter and that when using a stiff charge of blackpowder the bullets will upset much more than many people think! For those that have a copy of 'The Bullet's Flight' by Franklin W. Mann you're well aware of the degree to which lead bullets will enlarge/upset!! For the previous two months I have been shooting this 1-40 alloy in the BACO MB configuration and it has given good accuracy all the way back to 500 yards! In short...if your ammo is loaded in the right manner it's possible to just keep stuffing rounds in the chamber and still obtain reasonable accuracy without wiping or blowing!![smilie=w::bigsmyl2:

[SharpsShooter]

That's interesting. It would seem that the under diameter patched boolit was allowing you to chamber subsequent rounds without damaging the patch while at the same time the bump up of a 40:1 was enough to push the residual fouling that remained from the previous shot from the bore.

The only part of this that surprises me is the patch staying together under the stresses imposed. I'll surmise that the soft alloy compresses the patch so tightly to the groove that the patch material cannot migrate and expose the boolit.


SS

[Red River Rick]

My patched bullets (BACO Money Bullet)..............................

NO COMMENT :sad:

Interesting conclusion though!

RRR

[Don McDowell]

Rick in my long chambered cheap Italian junker rifle, I have went as many as 15 rounds using the Old West .435 bullet wrapped in HP lazer printer paper, set atop 80 grs of Goex 1f , with a .060 fiber wad a 1/8 in lubed felt wad and another fiber wad. At 300 yds I was able to keep all 15 on the gong.
Lately that same bullet wrapped in 9# onionskin and loaded in the 44-77 with a similar wad stack on top of 75 grs of Cartridge will go a number of rounds with no loss of accuracy.
Some one asked me the other day had the bpcr shooters finally became knowledgable enough to figure out how to shoot patched bullets? My reply was no the bpcr world has finally caught up to what most 10 year olds in the country knew in the 1870's.:drinks:

[Chicken Thief]

Errrr no!
Only the wery best shooters at that time could shoot as well as we do today, so saying that "most 10 year olds" knew yesterday is a falsum of yours!

Matter of fact: The shooting we do today with BP is but a wet dream for the 1870's shooters!
If not, then why is their scores worse than ours?

[Don McDowell]

Errrr no!
Only the wery best shooters at that time could shoot as well as we do today, so saying that "most 10 year olds" knew yesterday is a falsum of yours!

Matter of fact: The shooting we do today with BP is but a wet dream for the 1870's shooters!
If not, then why is their scores worse than ours?

You may be interested to study history just a bit....
In the 1870's etc, lets take the buffalo hunt. Most buffalo outfits had a "camp tender" That camp tender was usually a young kid who's duty it was to keep the dishes done, food prepared, and the AMMUNITON loaded and bullets cast and wrapped. Yup that 10 year old kid knew more about wrappin paper around bullets and loading sharps cartridges than most shooting bpcr now days do.
In the 1880's Ideal corporation hired young girls to roll patched bullets for sale to the shooting public. Those your girls were known to roll up to 12000 bullets a day... Yup those 12 year old girls knew more about rolling bullets today than the majority of bpcr shooters.
In the late 1800's the shooting sports were the nations passion, even the New York times coverd the events at the Creedmoor range. Churches had shooting matches after services.
So it's a pretty safe bet those 10 year olds....
Last but not least my maternal grandmother and her sisters in the 1880's learned to sew by sowing two patches together, around a powder charge for their dads muzzle loader before he left on his hunting trips. The boys rolled his patched bullets and measured the powder. Then the kids placed those in the "pouches" sewn together by the girls. The patches were then later used to clean the rifle after the days shooting was done.
So yet once again we have an example of 10 year olds knowing a goodly bit more about making paper patched ammo than alot of todays shooters do.
Scores? better now than then? don't think so. If they were it would be because of the differnce in equipment and targets, not to mention match guns of the time had a 10lb weight limit, and single trigger with a pull no less than 3 lbs. Plus there were no artificial rests allowed unless you were a one armed shooter. Also there were no more than 2 sighter shots allowed and those had to be paid for in advance...

[RMulhern]

That's interesting. It would seem that the under diameter patched boolit was allowing you to chamber subsequent rounds without damaging the patch while at the same time the bump up of a 40:1 was enough to push the residual fouling that remained from the previous shot from the bore.

The only part of this that surprises me is the patch staying together under the stresses imposed. I'll surmise that the soft alloy compresses the patch so tightly to the groove that the patch material cannot migrate and expose the boolit.


SS

SharpsShooter

The reason those things DON'T HAPPEN....is because of a .240" LUBE COOKIE!!:smile:

[6.5 mike]

Mulhern, what paper did you use for your test, & is the book you spoke of still available ?

[RMulhern]

Mulhern, what paper did you use for your test, & is the book you spoke of still available ?

6.5 mike

To be exact...I'll have to get that for you tomorrow! The book I have I paid $125.00 for several years ago as it's out of print but might still be available from Amazon.com! I'll give you a rundown on the paper tomorrow. I know it's .0022" in thickness. Think I got this from Office Depot. Bought their entire store stock when I found what I wanted!;-)

[6.5 mike]

Thanks Rick.

[SharpsShooter]

10-4 on the lube cookie RM. The paper you mention is considerably thicker than I use so I am interested as well.

6.5 Mike, The book is available here (http://www.alibris.com/search/books/qwork/850184/used/The%20Bullet%27s%20Flight%20from%20Powder%20to%20T arget:%20The%20Ballistics%20of%20Small%20Arms#sear ch-anchor)


SS

[6.5 mike]

Thanks Sharpsshooter, now I know where to look for this one & a couple others I'm interested in. :Fire:

[Hang Fire]

Chicken Thief

IIRC, isn't there a 200 yard offhand record set around turn of the 20th century which still stands unbeated today,

[Red River Rick]

Mr. M.:

What percentage was the humidity, the day you did your testing?

RRR

[RMulhern]

Mr. M.:

What percentage was the humidity, the day you did your testing?

RRR

Rick

At that time RH was running around 68% as rain clouds were building and we got a good rain that night and all next day! But the way these are loaded they'd shoot just as well at 20%!

For you fellows that don't have one of Rick's KAL moulds....you're MISSING OUT! I have several....in .45 and .50 caliber and all are round and break easily from the mould once poured. Here's a few I've got loaded up now and as soon as the weather breaks I'll test with the KIK 2F. Bullet is 1.500" length and at 1-40 alloy weigh in at 548 grs.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7004/6692414415_fb5dc13311_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/6692414415/)
Kal550 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/6692414415/) by Sharps45 2 7/8 (http://www.flickr.com/people/61286670@N08/), on Flickr

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7013/6692407631_a67c36b90a_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/6692407631/)
Kalbase (http://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/6692407631/) by Sharps45 2 7/8 (http://www.flickr.com/people/61286670@N08/), on Flickr

[Don McDowell]

That bullet in a .431 dia would sure make the 44 sit up and pay attention.

[RMulhern]

That bullet in a .431 dia would sure make the 44 sit up and pay attention.

Don

These are at .441"!:drinks::castmine:

[Don McDowell]

Looks alot like the .444 bullet out of the Old West mould. Sometimes I wish I'ld of had Bernie make it .441 or 2.
But the 44 now that takes a .430-432, I'm thinking .431 would be a good compromise, but it's not easy to find a mould that diameter.
Shot some .429's and they left paper rings real bad, I'm not sure if it was the diameter or the flat base.

[Lead pot]

Alloy most likely Don

[Don McDowell]

Oh man Leadpot, now you done went and gave me something else to mull around thru the cobwebs betwixt my ears....

[Lead pot]

Sorry, snicker...snicker

[Yellowhouse]

What alloy was it you were shooting Don?

[Don McDowell]

Sam you'ld have to ask the guy that made em... and he's the one rollin on the floor laughing:bootgive:

[Lead pot]

Which bullet was it Don? If it was the elliptical flat base it was from the KAL mould it would have been a .431 diameter 1.4627 long cast with 1/18 alloy.
If it was the Brooks prolate it would be a .433 diameter 1.458 long cast with 1/15 alloy. The Brooks Sharps profile cup base is a .431 diameter the adjustable length ??? cast with 1/40 alloy

[Don McDowell]

Kurt these were the .429's from the BACO mould you gave me quite awhile back.
The Brooks Sharps bullets are great. Really liked the way the few I've used so far shoot.

[Don McDowell]

Mr. Mulhern, those's .441's arrived in the morning post. Thanks I really like the looks of that one.

[RMulhern]

Mr. Mulhern, those's .441's arrived in the morning post. Thanks I really like the looks of that one.

Don

Shot a few of the 1.500" length this morning and from 400 yards they made a 'silver splat' in the middle of the clanger! Was in an 18 mph direct crosswind also! These shoot like the proverbial 'house on fire' outa the other 110 but this was first time through the new rifle with powderburner's barrel!:holysheep:drinks:

[Lead pot]

Come on now Rick! I know you dont shoot when the wind is blowing[smilie=l:

[RMulhern]

Come on now Rick! I know you dont shoot when the wind is blowing[smilie=l:

Range is drying out....and I used it!:razz:

[Don McDowell]

[smilie=l: Leadpot you know the wind is always "blowin" at Mulhern's.:kidding:

[Lead pot]

:drinks:

[John Boy]

and the load was 102 grs. KIK 2F Rick, herein lies the key to the long shot strings. Especially the FFg KIK which burns the best between the Fg and 1 1/2 Fg.
How's 1 wet and 3 dry cotton balls to clean the bore after a 50 shot string in 66% humidity. :) And they were GG rounds

[RMulhern]

John Boy

I've been using 1 damp 1 dry with good results but that monkey may not dance in hot temps!

[RMulhern]

[smilie=l: Leadpot you know the wind is always "blowin" at Mulhern's.:kidding:

No...such is not the case! In June/July/August it's absolutely DEAD CALM.....and so damn hot most folks with any degree of intellect don't venture outside until maybe 1900 hrs. and then it will still be 98F or hotter!!:x:takinWiz::groner:

[Lead pot]

I would take some of that mid summer temp about now.
I been looking for a load for this new .45 PP MB and have a time with cold fingers and the glare from the snow. It's not cold but the 18-20 MPH winds aren't helping me find a load.
Best I found so far is 2.5" at 130 yds.

[Red River Rick]

That bullet in a .431 dia would sure make the 44 sit up and pay attention.

Don:

You need to get a hold of Powderburnerr (Dean). I was talking to him the other day...........he has an idea in the works! Since you both have 44-77's..........

RRR

[Don McDowell]

Well I just may do that? You think you can duplicate the original sharps nose or at leasst close at .431?

[RMulhern]

RRR

The KAL .441" with flat meplat likes the KIK 2F! I had a good string going today but I got run off the range by one of my son's Ag planes as they started to burn down the vegetation on the bean ground adjacent to the range so I had to leave! Was shooting from 200 yds. on the NRA HP target with 3" X ring and after 5 shots I had 4 X's and 1 10 which was the first shot slightly out of the X at 9 o/clock! I got to get my dang camera fixed!!:x:x

[cajun shooter]

Rick, Anyone on this forum knows what your target looks like because you told us. When men like yourself, Don, Leadpot, KW,SS say that they had so many X's, 10's and one 9 then the picture is quite clear in my mind. No visual aid is needed. Your word is your camera.
If you really want to punish someone, send them to South Louisiana from June through September. My wife's brother and his wife and two teenage sons came down to see us from Pa. one 4th of July.The first day they were here they wanted to take a walk as we live in the country. They laughed when we said we were going to stay inside and watch the tube. The second day was the same as the first as they walked about three miles. When the third day rolled around they were still sitting inside at the usual time of the walk. I asked why they had not left for the evening walk and they looked at us as if we were nuts. Her brother Jimmy said they became so hot that they could hardly breathe and was worried that they may have to call for help to make it back. They stated that Louisiana was the hottest place they had ever seen! Ha!! Ha!! Later David

[RMulhern]

Thanks for the vote of confidence David!