Powder choice & leading

[Shuz]

Yesterday I shot 3 of my .44 mags with 7.5g of NM-04 and a Saeco 8(Bhn 14-15) Lee 225 RNFP sized to .430.
The cylinder throats on all 3 are less than .429". I got very severe leading in the forcing cone on all three guns.
I cleaned the leading out by using a .431 diameter Saeco 8 429215 gas checked and 18g of 2400.

I then fired a few rounds of Saeco 7 429421's at .431 and 8.6g of Green Dot thru 2 of the guns.
I got some minor leading in the forcing cone and a few streaks down the bbl.

Here's the interesting part......I fired 10 shots out of each gun with a Saeco 7, 429421 @ .431 with 18g of 2400, and it completely removed all leading out of both guns! Remember, both these guns have -.429 throats.

Looks like I won't have to worry about using gas checked boolits anymore for bbl cleaning when I phart around with fast powders and experience leading in my .44 mags! YMMV

[williamwaco]

Shuz,

I bought my first .44 Mag in 1956/57.
Since then I have traded for and traded off at least two dozen of them.
I have never used a gas check for anything other than curiosity.

Use a gas check if you like. I use them for "cleaning out leading" They are very good at that.

However, if you are getting leading it is not because you are not using a gas check.
Leading is almost always caused by:

1) Bullet doesn't fit.
2) Lube is failing.
3) Problems with throats or bore.

You don't mention the lube you are using.
You didn't mention your bore diameter.
This would be helpful information.

By the way.
I have never owned a .44 Mag: Smith, Ruger, Tarus, Thompson Contender that did not work perfectly with bullets sized .430.
( I have also never owned a .44 Mag rifle - I can't comment on them. )

[stubshaft]

You forgot, alloy is too soft.

[geargnasher]

You forgot, alloy is too soft.

:groner:

:killingpc

Gear

[williamwaco]

:groner:

:killingpc

Gear

Should you tell him, or should I.




.

[btroj]

Not too soft. Alloy must be balanced to the powder burn rate and max pressure.
I prefer a soft bullet that fits over a hard one that doesn't every time.

Fit is king and balancing the alloy to the pressure/burn rate is right there with it.

That "hard cast" Koolaid aid must taste great. Luckily I didn't develop much of a taste for it.

[geargnasher]

Yes, I think the dude that used to do the Slap Chop infomercials must have been plugging the "granite cast" and crayon lube commercial boolits.

Shuz, check out this thread and see if you aren't having exactly the problem that Kweidner was (forcing cone restriction causing leading but only with slower powers). http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=138614

Gear

[Sonnypie]

Yes, I think the dude that used to do the Slap Chop infomercials must have been plugging the "granite cast" and crayon lube commercial boolits.

Gear

I just saw that commercial the other night!
I had to stop and watch him, one more time!

Best line: You're gonna love my nuts!
Then he chops up some nuts for Ice Cream.
Always makes me laugh.

Wild tail son of loose woman! :lol:

[918v]

It could be you measured your cylinder throats incorrectly. Did you use your caliper jaws? That's not the way to do it.

A softer bullet will fill out the bore better than a hard bullet, so even if you shot a .430" bullet through a .429" cylinder throat, a soft bullet will expand back to .430" while traveling through that no man's land inbetween the cylinder face and the forcing cone.

[Shuz]

Perhaps some of you missed my main point which is----Saeco 7 and Saeco 8 boolits driven by faster powders leaded my guns, while Saeco 7 boolits driven by 2400 cleaned the leading out regardless of the "too small" throats of all 3 guns, and the .431 diameter of the boolit used to do so.

The throats were measured by trying various sized boolits to see which would pass throught the throats with minimum hand pressure. The boolits were then micked. Boolits that miked .429 would not pass through the throats. I have never slugged a Smith bbl because of the difficulty of measuring a 5 groove design. I wuz always gonna send some to O.F. McKagan(sp),but he quit offering that service before "I got a round toit".

The lube used on all boolits was Lars Carnauba Red.

[btroj]

So the softer bullet driven by the slower powder didn't lead. Maybe because after it got sized down by the throat there was still enough pressure to slug it back up and seal the barrel? The faster powder didn't have enough umph left to do likewise.
This is what I meant about balancing pressure and alloy for the situation.

I had a Ruger BH in 45 Colt that was like this. Throats so tight the bullets were undersized for the barrel. I opened them all up and no more leading. Best thing I ever did.

[Shuz]

[QUOTE=btroj;1535569]So the softer bullet driven by the slower powder didn't lead. Maybe because after it got sized down by the throat there was still enough pressure to slug it back up and seal the barrel? The faster powder didn't have enough umph left to do likewise.
This is what I meant about balancing pressure and alloy for the situation.

I think you are exactly right.

I've been shooting cast boolits in the .44 mag since 1963. I really enjoy shooting loads around 950 to 1050 fps. Easy on the guns and easy on the shooter. However my use of powders for these loads is usually on the faster side of the spectrum. Green Dot is my favorite, but I've also used Unique and recently NM-04. What I've noticed down thru the years is that slower powders in the .44mag;like 2400,H-110/296 and WC820 are much less likely to lead with most alloys in the Saeco 7 to 10 range(Bhn 11-22) than the faster powders. What I found out the other day is that powder choice is more important than boolit size or hardness when it comes to reducing leading. At least that's my conclusion! YMMV.--Shuz

[felix]

Your conclusion is good, Ray, because you have solid knowledge of your guns-boolits situations. However, if you were the experimental type over the years with a bunch of crazy combinations, the truth will come out as stated by Btroj. ... felix

[runfiverun]

i'd just fix the cylinder throats.

[tuckerdog]

I have found that the powder that gives the best vel. with the lowest pressure and a fairly soft alloy and properly sized boolit give the best results in most firearms. alot of people think stainless steel boolits and gobs of h110 is the berrys but after lots and lots of experimenting, this has never worked for me.

[44man]

So the softer bullet driven by the slower powder didn't lead. Maybe because after it got sized down by the throat there was still enough pressure to slug it back up and seal the barrel? The faster powder didn't have enough umph left to do likewise.
This is what I meant about balancing pressure and alloy for the situation.

I had a Ruger BH in 45 Colt that was like this. Throats so tight the bullets were undersized for the barrel. I opened them all up and no more leading. Best thing I ever did.
And maybe the faster powder "slumped" the boolit, made it skid to open severe gas channels along the boolit while the slower powder eased the boolit into rifling with no skid.
How would we know? By catching boolits undamaged to read the rifling marks.
I hate to guess these things. Smaller throats are always a problem but even a 5 groove bore can be measured and if the grooves are the same as the throats all is good. S&W usually has a smaller bore.
I also will never say a GC will remove leading, it is hardly ever true. I would say the slow powder and reduction of skid cleaned out the leading. Just like a slow, softer boolit will remove lead.

[felix]

5-groove barrels with wide lands can be measured when treading lightly across the corner peaks of the lands. The lands must approach the width of the grooves for this to be true, like the Smiths' revolters I have. ... felix

[btroj]

You could be right 44man. To a certain extent does it matter if we find a load that works well in that particular fun for the desired purpose?

Personally I would lap or ream the throats to a uniform .431 or so, depending on the barrel dimensions. Make them all a thou larger than the biggest barrel and then size bullets to match that throat size or a hair bigger.

Many way to skin a cat. Find one that works for you and run with it.