Malfunctions with 1911's

[ColColt]

Guys, having a problem with two pistols today. I did not have fun at the range this morning. I took my two favorite buds out for a run(XSE Commander and SW1911SC) to try different mags and loads and got several malfunctions with both. I got so disgusted I left early and didn't even finish the 200 rounds I'd brought with me.

The first problem was with the Commander. I had read of how the 7 round GI mag from CM was so highly lauded that I bought two. I loaded them up last night and tried them first thing at the range. The first seven went ok but the second time I got a nose straight up on the next to last round. Thinking it was just a fluke, I loaded another mag with five rounds, no problem. The next time I got the same jam again-straight up. I abandoned those two magazine in favor of the CM with hybrid lips and no further problem. This was with 230 gr hardball. I still don't know why the GI mag would have caused such a jam as it was more or less "made" for hardball.

Next up for malfunctions was the SW1911SC I had two early lock backs in five magazines using either GDHP's or Federal 230 gr HST. I don't think it was ammo related as it happened with the same mag-a Tripp Cobra. I don't now if that's the cause or whether it's the new EGW slide stop I put in a week ago. I suspect the slide stop.

Stil the same pistol, I had yet another problem, a double feed, sort of. With the next to last round using GD's and the CM hybrid mag, a jam occurred and looked like the last pic shown. There was one round left in the magazine and the nose was right against the feed ramp of the frame with the bullet on top just sitting there. It wasn't under mag spring pressure or even in the beginning of the throat. It was just laying on top the round in the magazine and in fact, I turned it upside down and the round just fell on the table.

It still blows me away that none of the 50 200 gr SWC's I shot with both guns using three different mags didn't cause nary a problem-only with hardball and hollow points. I don't know where to put the blame. The CM with hybrid lips did great with the Commander and didn't cause any jams with hollow points from the GD's or the HST ammo. The one problem the Commander had was with hardball and the GI mag.

This was the jam with the Commander with GI lips.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x220/ColColt/Malfunctions/_DEF4260a.jpg

This is the jam with the SW1911SC.
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x220/ColColt/Malfunctions/_DEF4261a.jpg

This was not a good day. Aggravated I just came on home. Could an analysis of the photos and my description give you a hint as to where/what to do here?

[JayinAZ]

How old is your Cmdr? I have one of those and it sure took a lot of breaking in and some polishing before it got to be reliable. It's a great shooter today. The only magazines it will not tolerate are McCormick 10 rounders.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bullet Caster]

The magazine is usually the culprit in most auto loaders. I had the same thing happen with an out of the box Norinco .45ACP. It wouldn't chamber a hard ball round no matter what I did. I then bought some magazines from a friend, some were colt and some were of some other brand. After putting up with the problem for a while, I took it to a friend of mine who was a gunsmith. He polished the feed ramp and then it would chamber a round from the mag that came with the pistol. After firing about 100 rounds, I changed to 230 grain hollow points and they chambered fine. I also did a little adjusting of the feed lips on several magazines and after the break in period the old Norinco will chamber and fire just about any ammo I want to use. Haven't tried it with cast boolits but that will be my next project after I get some cast with my "new" mould. Will be using the Lee 230 grain non tumble lube mould. Can't wait to get some cast and reloaded. Will see how cast chambers in my Norince .45acp. BC

[Char-Gar]

The Browning 1911 pistol is very reliable. It is when folks start trying to improve it that problems. Jams most often can be traced to the ammo or the mags, but having the wrong springs in the pistol can ALSo be a problem.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

ColColt; I remember offering my 2 cents worth as you were considering purchasing that Smith. The remedy to most 1911's problems is usually found in the springy things that pushes the boolit up and other springy thing that takes the slide from back to battery. Factory mags get tossed over the berm on day one. Use Wilson Combat or Metalform seven (7) round mags, not 8 rounders. Combine your upgraded mag with a recoil spring from Wolff or Wilson Combat of 16 to 17 lbs specifically made for your model’s barrel length. Start out with factory pressure 230 round nose jacketed and tackle any further problems specifically under the ejector and extractor category. Be very caution of the guy who offers to polish your feed ramp, most smiths go overboard on this job leaving you with a pistol that has been stepped on. To further perfect the recipe of the 1911, stick with 5” barrels, carbon blue steel, and shun anything with a firing pin disconnect safety designed by lawyers.

[ColColt]

A 1911 shouldn't require a break in period. You should be able to take it out of the box, clan and oil and off to the range. If it's not worthy of that, it's not worthy of carrying or being used as a SD gun, which is what these two were intended for but have yet to meet that criteria. My 4506, that's 21 years old has never failed regardless the ammo or age of the spring. I expect nothing less from Colt nor less from another auto loader from S&W-especially what these two cost.

Neither is old. In fact, I bought both of them within a month of each other and that was about 2-3 months ago. The SW1911SC has had 300 rounds through it before and the Commander about 150 not counting today's count. Today was the worse I have experienced with any auto loader. I could see maybe one causing one problem but to have problems with both in not tolerable. Something's not kosher somewhere.
The GDHP's and Federal HST were both 230 gr-what the pistol was designed to shoot. Nothing has been done to either of the pistols other that a change out of slide stops. I don't like MIM slide stops and changed that to a 10-8 Performance G2 made from bar stock. That's all that's been done.

The CM GI mag has a Wolff 11# spring in it and should not have caused the jam in the Commander but, it happened twice within 21 rounds using hard ball. The CM mag with their hybrid lips has a strong spring and shouldn't have caused the problem it did in the SW1911SC. Last time I shot this pistol(two weeks ago) it jammed with a round nose up into the upper part of the barrel hood with a Tripp Cobra mag and Gold Dots. I'm about ready to go back to the 4506 and Glock and just get rid of the 1911. I can't afford eight boxes of factory SD ammo on and on to see if it may work with a given magazine. My 4506 would and still does eat any and all ammo-even the Flying Ashtray with it's short nose it never failed out of hundreds of rounds with that boolit. This has been most disheartening.


To further perfect the recipe of the 1911, stick with 5” barrels, carbon blue steel, and shun anything with a firing pin disconnect safety designed by lawyers.


You're a little late with that adivice as both of these are Commander length barrels and should feed just as good as the 5" models. I have that too but have also had Commanders before in the Series 70 and don't recall a problem with it. What does having one in carbon steel or a Series 80 matter?

[Silver Jack Hammer]

ColColt, I don't think I'm late in offering my advice, if memory serves me correctly I did offer my advice before you purchased the Commander length Smith. My 1911 gunsmith tells me there is a reason John Browning made the 1911 with a 5" barrel. The shorter barrel has a more critical pivot angle and the slide time is less. An example is given for the difference between the Gov't and the Commander ias the comparison between the Impala and the Camaro. When you cut, shorten, and stiffen and soop up there are consequences. The Camaro requires more maintenance than than the Impala, so prepare yourself for a greater challenge with a Commander than a Gov't, generally speaking. I have three carbon steel 5" Colt 45's, I follow my 'smith's advice and have then all working. Of course my 4506 did come out of the box and commence shooting for a decade now without any of the labor my 1911's have required to get right. These are SD guns and are reliable with HP +P ammo. Stainless steel is harder, stiffer, and does not absorb petrolium based lubricants as a carbon steel gun does. The 4506 was designed as a stainless gun, the 1911 was designed as a carbon steel gun. I tend to shoot, clean, oil and carry sometimes for weeks before pulling and shooting demanding nothing less that 100% reliability. My 1911's did require switching out of factory mags and springs, and by following the advice I've passed on, my guns are working.

[35remington]

ColColt, I hope you did not change out the Colt slide stop. It is truly a forged part, not MIM, and is higher quality than any you may buy. It is superior to your 10-8 G2 slide stop made of bar stock. Your aftermarket stop doesn't measure up to Colt's OEM slide stop.

If you did take out the Colt stop, put the darn thing back in. Save the lower quality 10-8 stop to replace a MIM stop in another pistol brand, not a Colt. Please shoot the Colt with the original stop in it for any further reliability testing from here on.

Col, what recoil spring are you using? Hopefully no Shok buff?

Some reading for you:

http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=91831&page=1&pp=10&highlight=Bolt+base+misfeed

In most instances, the live round stovepipe (what the bullet up in the ejection port jam is called) is caused by either an over energetic recoil spring, or a weak magazine spring. Has the OEM spring in the Commander ever been replaced? How many rounds does it have on it?

Since the GI has Wolff 11 lb. springs, we can rule out the magazine spring being a problem. Time to swap out your recoil spring. If you don't know what poundage it is, go with a 16 for the Commander. Yes, I know, standard is 18 lb. for the Commander, but most 1911's in five inch and 4.25 inch are oversprung somewhat. The 16 lb. spring, combined with a strong magazine spring, should minimize bolt over base misfeeding.

The Commander has somewhat less breechface overtravel past the magazine well than a five inch 1911 and is a bit more prone to live round stove pipes for that reason. Time to double down on the prevention.

The second issue looks to be what is called a double feed. Does this magazine involved have the stronger spring? It matters.

It may also be time to investigate your firing pin stop and get one a little more suited to what you intend to do with the pistol, which is, I presume, to fire warmer than standard self defense loads at least part of the time.

[M1A4ME]

I guess I've just been really lucky with my 1911's as I've used any/every magazine I can find for over 30 years. No issues in my 1911, Combat Commander or Series 80 in stainless steel. The Series 70 likes to dent the brass (getting better about that after a spring change and the installation of a commander style ejector) and the Series 70 also likes a longer OAL length than the other pistols require.

Heck, for that matter the P14 and the Springfield Armory guns both work fine, too.

I played with HPs years ago in the Combat Commander and don't remember any issues but I've stuck mostly with either jacketed hardball or the cast lead equivalents in weight/shape. I've shot some of the SWC bullets but not much since I figure I might as well practice with what I carry.

I hope I never get into feed/ejection issue with one of mine, I wouldn't know what to do to fix it.:sad:

[35remington]

These jams can be proofed, incidentally, with lead bullet reloads closely approximating the factory loads in velocity and bullet weight, since both jams have to do with forward and backward slide speed and impact momentum.

Not bullet shape or brand. To be sure the fix holds initially, break out the reloads first and bang away to your heart's content.

[ColColt]

I thought it may be easier to address your questions in bold below.


ColColt, I hope you did not change out the Colt slide stop. It is truly a forged part, not MIM, and is higher quality than any you may buy. It is superior to your 10-8 G2 slide stop made of bar stock. Your aftermarket stop doesn't measure up to Colt's OEM slide stop.

If you did take out the Colt stop, put the darn thing back in. Save the lower quality 10-8 stop to replace a MIM stop in another pistol brand, not a Colt. Please shoot the Colt with the original stop in it for any further reliability testing from here on. I did replace it with the 10-8 stop as it was easier getting in and out without scratching
Col, what recoil spring are you using? Hopefully no Shok buff?
I'm using what was factory suppied and no shok buff. I quit that long ago.

Some reading for you:

http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=91831&page=1&pp=10&highlight=Bolt+base+misfeed

In most instances, the live round stovepipe (what the bullet up in the ejection port jam is called) is caused by either an over energetic recoil spring, or a weak magazine spring. Has the OEM spring in the Commander ever been replaced? How many rounds does it have on it? Nope-its the one that was factory installed. This is a new pistol and counting today, has only had about 200 rounds.

Since the GI has Wolff 11 lb. springs, we can rule out the magazine spring being a problem. Time to swap out your recoil spring. If you don't know what poundage it is, go with a 16 for the Commander. Yes, I know, standard is 18 lb. for the Commander, but most 1911's in five inch and 4.25 inch are oversprung somewhat. The 16 lb. spring, combined with a strong magazine spring, should minimize bolt over base misfeeding.

Funny you should mention that about the 16# spring. My SW1911SC was hard as the dickens to retract sling shot method so, I replaced it with a Wolff 16# spring. I didn't replace the one in the commander as for some reason it was easier to retract the slide-maybe the grooves instead of the fish scale version on the S&W, I don't know.

The Commander has somewhat less breechface overtravel past the magazine well than a five inch 1911 and is a bit more prone to live round stove pipes for that reason. Time to double down on the prevention.

The second issue looks to be what is called a double feed. Does this magazine involved have the stronger spring? It matters.
That magazine was the CM with Hybrid lips and I can't recall if that particular one had the 11# replacement spring or not. The top round never made it to the chamber. It was just lying on top the bottom round in the magazine which was the last round.

It may also be time to investigate your firing pin stop and get one a little more suited to what you intend to do with the pistol, which is, I presume, to fire warmer than standard self defense loads at least part of the time.

[35remington]

Since I'm being so verbose, I figured I would add that any new pistol I shoot for the first time gets shot with reloads extensively, to high round counts. This addresses any issues that have little to do with bullet shape, which is most of them.

With cast bullets, it is possible to duplicate factory ammo shape in some instances so it can help adress problems to a more limited extent in that respect. At the very least most casters have a design that approximates ball like the Lyman 452374 or the Lee 230-2R.

Right now my most recent 1911 has been shot a whole lot with cast including HG 68 clones, the Lyman and Lee cast ball duplicates and the RCBS Cowboy 230. GI mags with the first three, hybrid tapered lip with the last. I have been able to afford a reasonable but not large quantity (200) of the WWB 230 HP's to try, but that's a small fraction of what I've shot in cast so far.

I have enough shooting through it for reliability confidence with only one type of bullet and that's not one with a jacket. Even when I have enough testing to trust the WWB HP 230, it is foolish not to carry a more penetrative cast bullet to supplement the hollow points. I travel in a pickup outdoors a lot and this seems to make sense to me.

Before someone criticizes me for not choosing one of the bonded dollar fifty a shot defense rounds, I must say I have a budget to meet and trust high round count to be more certain of feed reliability. Cheaper ammo makes this possible. It has more importance than the latest high tech minutiae, and I know from some testing and a little research that the WWB 230 HP expands well and has a good rep via many sources.

[JayinAZ]

A 1911 shouldn't require a break in period. You should be able to take it out of the box, clan and oil and off to the range.

Maybe in a perfect world. I've never bought a new one that didn't need some break in though. These CC/defense pistols are built tighter than the original G.I. 1911s after all.

[35remington]

Col, I can detect a difference between standard magazine springs and extra power very easily.

Known Wolff in one hand, unknown in other. Depress front of both followers downward with thumb at same time. Noticeable difference can be felt if springs happen to be of different ratings.

[shovel80]

Magazine lips too Wide??

Terry

[Char-Gar]

The only comment I have, is the fellow who believes a 1911 pistol should not require a break in periodl lives in la-la land.

[ColColt]

Speer 2320 gr Gold Dots and Federal HSt ammo is not cheap. However, you can't get boolits to use as reloads for these. GD's are always back ordered and HST's are not available. That's the two I rely on for SD ammo. I use to use Ranger T in 230 gr but felt the former two may be better. I've already expended nearly four boxes of the GD's and two of the HST and still don't have an idea if they'll be reliable in either pistol as there's still unanswered questions about the problems I experienced today. I have three 45's I can rely on besides these two that I know will feed anything-two in particular but, I had given consideration on carrying one of the two I had problems with today and am now having second thoughts until whatever the problem is gets ironed out.

I don't' have a mold for any 230 gr RN. Perhaps I should add that to my ever growing multitude of molds. One good part is that 230 gr FMJ boolits can be had from Speer, Hornady, Winchester, etc and that's what I used in my reloads I shot today. They were loaded with 8.2 gr of HS-6 and that has always been my staple with this weight/style of boolit. Odd that the one boolit that gave no problem today or any other time with these two pistols has been the 200 gr #68 from Miha. Of all boolits I would have thought the SWC would have given the most problem.

I'm still perplexed about the CM GI mag. I felt sure it would feed hard ball best since that's what it was designed for. That's the one that gave the "standing ovation" twice with the Commander. I've had stovepipes before long ago with a SA but never one that stood boolit up like what happened today. It was as if the boolit was released too soon and that magazine has the latest of all release points to it.

I can't spend #300-500 for expensive factory SD ammo. I've spent enough already on this. If things don't get better and get resolved I'll have to consign these two expensive SWC pistols to just that and rely on others I have.

Well, Char-Gar, maybe I need airline tickets to Fantasy Island because to me a pistol $1000-1200 should work right out of the box.

[waksupi]

When you get a new semi-custom or custom pistol, you are paying for tight tolerances. Then you need to shoot the beejeebers out of them, to loosen them up like they should have been in the first place.

[35remington]

The malf with the live round stovepipe had little to do with the magazine's release point and more to do with breech face contact with the extractor groove rather than the rim. The other issue was not release point related either.

What velocity does the HS 6 load obtain?

Do look into a 230 mould as it will help you duplicate the SD loads in a better way than a 200 SWC will. The will help you resolve many issues more cheaply. As I mentioned, these jams you've posted about are slide speed and momentum derived. Many if not most 230 factory loads, I presume, are probably heavier loaded than your 200 SWC's which explains the difference in function. Less slide momentum and speed derived fom shooting the lighter bullets does not cause the same issues.

Many of the factory 230 SD hollow points, even if not Plus P, closely approach and often well exceed 900 fps. More slide momentum and speed.

[MtGun44]

I have never seen the stovepipe with a live round, ever, in many years of observing and
doing IPSC competition where a majority of the guns were 1911s in .45 ACP.

+1 on more rounds. IMO, 200 rds is a good starting point.

Agreed on ammo costs, I reload my own with 230 GDs to make practice ammo that I can
afford. Chrono the 'real thing" and match vel and LOA with handload.

Sorry about the issues, very strange failures with ball. IME, ball ALWAYS works.

Bill

[ColColt]

The loads with HS-6, according the Hodgdon and 8.2 gr is about 825 fps. Speer's manual says a max load of 8.5 gr will yield 863 fps. So, we're still talking about 850 fps or less which is what most 230 gr ball ammo would give.


As I mentioned, these jams you've posted about are slide speed and momentum derived.

Are you saying the recoil spring may be too weak...too strong?


I have never seen the stovepipe with a live round, ever, in many years of observing and
doing IPSC competition where a majority of the guns were 1911s in .45 ACP.

Neither have I. That's why I was so surprised. I've see stove pipes, 3 point jams, double feeds, nose into upper part of barrel hood but not like this one....and, it happened twice and with GI mags of all things.

Now, one caveat on this is that my OAL of the ball rounds was 1.245". I know that's a bit short by someone's standard but, I've used it for years. Although probably not part of the problems or shouldn't be, I'm going to change that next time to 1.265" as I've already determined the case rim will still be flush with the barrel hood using that OAL so, I'm going to eliminate any possibility of that being a factor.

[GT27]

The only comment I have, is the fellow who believes a 1911 pistol should not require a break in periodl lives in la-la land.

I second that!!!!!!:popcorn:

[felix]

Race engines are built loose so they can be broken in completely for the race on the dyno. The same engine for pure passenger service will be built with much tighter tolerances, and then sorta' broken in on the dyno adjusted for much lower rpms and much higher torque at those rpms. The real eye opener is these tighter engines are not broken in for street drag racing until about 12,000 miles, and several starters replaced. So, if military operations are desired, then go for the loose gun. Keep away from the target models. ... felix

[ColColt]

The Commander is not a Gold Cup-neither is the SW1911SC. They should both run reliably after 200-300 rounds and both of these don't.

[35remington]

I've experienced live round stovepipes trying to shoot factory ball through McCormick Shooting Stars in a full size Govt. model. Every other magazine would have a live round stovepipe on the last round.

Yours is a bit more curious than what I'm experiencing.

What I'm saying is the recoil spring could be too strong when a pistol malfunctions with a live round stovepipe, or the magazine spring could be too weak. Since you said the magazine that had these malfs has Wolff 11 lb. springs, that leaves the recoil spring as suspect.

I'm not sure any magazine spring extant is stronger than a Wolff with an 11 lb. spring. The seven shot Tripps have a pretty darn strong spring, as do eight shot Tripps to a bit lesser degree, but I don't know that they're better in terms of strength than a 11 lb. Wolff in a seven shot original style magazine.

The fact that you've had malfs with strongly sprung magazines suggests that you've done all you can do in that department. If you're worried about release point for some reason, that should occur when the round touches the front side of the dimple when inserted from the front or very very slightly forward of it.

If those things check out, then spring strength and release point of the magazine are both within spec, and better than average in terms of spring strength.

So by a process of elimination, that leaves the recoil spring. Perhaps for some odd reason this one was stiffer than average, and with the low round count (200 shots isn't all that much) it may not yet have taken a set.

I don't know for sure. All I know is that fixing a 1911 is like fixing a car........you line up the likely possibilities first, like battery, battery connections, solenoid, and alternator in your car when it doesn't start.

In a 1911, you look at the magazines, magazine springs, recoil springs, followers, extractors, and the ammo first. Dimensionality might come next.

As far as the recoil spring goes, the only way you can approximate what it's doing it with an accurate bathroom scale (only after you calibrate it with a known weight like a couple of gallons of milk, which should be close to 16 lbs) a wooden dowel to rack the slide to the nearly fully to the rear position, and your Commander to check on actual recoil spring poundage.

Col, I am like you in that I have been snakebit in getting things to run right in 1911's, but a lot of that was my fault in choosing the wrong magazines, the wrong ammo in terms of shape and power to go with those magazines, the wrong recoil springs, and other reasons.

Once I started to get wised up a little, things improved greatly and there is now all kinds of faith in my pistol's reliability on my part, especially since I shoot a 1911 better than the other types of autoloading pistols.

I think eventually, and sooner rather than later you will get to the point you want to be at in terms of that reliability. In my own opinion a Commander is as short as I want to go in terms of the tradeoffs between carryability and reliability, but expecting very good reliability is still a reasonable desire in a pistol of this size.

[Cap'n Morgan]

My best explanation for the live-round stovepipe is that momentum pulls/strips the round from top of the mag during recoil when the slide is all the way back and the gun is tilted at an angle above the line of sight. The heavier 230 gr bullet simply has more momentum than the 200 gr - Enough to partly overcome the spring force in the front of the lips. This will also explain why it happens when the mag is nearly empty as it takes less force to pull the nose of the round up when the upwards pressure from the underlaying rounds lessens.

If I was into fixing auto loading weapons for a living I would invest in a Casio Exilim EX-F1 or similar "cheap" high speed camera: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BIi-bSFM1Q

[ColColt]

All my magazines are top rated. I've been careful about that. I've taken advice here and on the m1911.org fourm and seen others recommend CM mags and the Wolff 11# spring or CM's own XP spring. Comparing those two side by side, I can't tell any difference. I have both and in the CM7 round mag, which is the one I had the jam with in the Commander, It has a stronger spring. All my mags are either Tripp(7 and 8), Check Mate(7 & 8 round) or Wilson. The Wilson's weren't taken to the range yesterday so they're out of the quotient.

For some reason the SW1911SC doesn't seem to like the Cobra mag. The Colt doesn't seem to have a preference. Week before last when I took it out for the first time I shot SWC, hard ball and GDHP...no jams. Why it did this time is a mystery-especially with the GI mag.

I looked for the Lyman 452374 but they liked it too well. Midway has a better price at $65 but it's on back order till the end of the month. I got on the list to email me when it's in. Hopefully, it won't be like the other Lyman's I have and be undersized.

I can deal with one pistol giving problems but to have two at the same time has been a challenge, to put it mildly.

[35remington]

Cap'n, that explanation fits having the last round fly out of the ejection port instead of being fed, or the cartrige lying on top of the magazine with the slide locked back or ejecting the second to the last round while feeding the last round.

All these are usually due to a weak magazine spring allowing inertia to come into play, or no speed bump on the follower.

The live round stovepipe has a similar genesis in that a weak magazine spring can cause it, but so can a too strong recoil spring. It is caused by something different than you describe.

Instead of being a result of slide/frame impact and inertia, a live round stovepipe is caused by the breech face hitting the cartridge in the extraction groove rather than the back of the rim. It's a variant of the bolt over base misfeed in that it's not as extreme as a complete ride over BOB misfeed.

The base of the cartridge gets shoved downward into the magazine, the loaded round tries to stand straight up, and the forward travel of the breech face pushes the base of the cartridge either to the front of the magazine or completely free of it.

The final result is a vertical cartridge, bullet up, pinched between breech face and barrel.

That's the sequence of events, and how it comes about. It's not an inertial issue, it's a slide return speed or speed of cartridge elevation issue.

[35remington]

Col, it has been said that the Checmate XP spring is a Wolff 11 lb. spring. Since Checkmate buys their spring from outside sources, this seems reasonable and possible.

[ColColt]

Although the mag I was using in the Commander was a CM GI with the dimpled follower, it doesn't have the 11# Wolff spring. It has whatever came with the mag. I don't know that changing it would help or not. So many 1911's seem to work with that style magazine now and in the past and especially with ball ammo, I have to wonder why this one is so picky about spring strength.

Would you consider the fault with the SW1911SC is also a type of BOB issue?

[35remington]

The fault with the Smith is not a BOB issue.

I've explained several times here on this forum that the reduced breech face overtravel past the magazine well of shortened 1911's makes magazine spring strength more critical. You have a short 1911 that is giving BOB misfeeds when using a standard sprung magazine. The light bulb over your head should be shining brightly by now. A short 1911 give less time for the round to rise into position to be caught correctly by the breech face.

Noticed my comments about smaller radii stops? This is a reliability aid as well in that it reduces inertial feeding issues, and those issues resulting from incorrect or insufficient magazine and recoil spring strength.

Point is, you are not out of remedies for your issues yet.

[MtGun44]

Most people are completely oblivious to the effect that the firing pin stop bottom radius
has on the funtion of the weapon.

Bill

[35remington]

Agreed.

JMB intended that the pistol should have this feature, and it was a mistake that something else is now standard.

[btroj]

I was ignorant about the small radius stop until I was educated here. Sure makes a difference in where the brass lands and it changed the feel of the recoil.

I am very happy I changed mine.

[ColColt]

Oh, boy-I needed another monkey wrench thrown into this...but, I'm not going to ask more questions as it's past my bedtime and my dog wants to go upstairs. However, I did look at the two pistols in question that started this thread and they're not the same. I'll get into that tomorrow. I'm waiting on someone to say hex grip screws could be part of the problem instead of slotted ones.:bigsmyl2:

[btroj]

Oh man, slotted screws? So wants those old fashioned things?

Each gun is an individual. Key is to find what makes yours tick. General rules help but sometimes it is the little things that make a big difference.

[sailinon]

I'm very interested in this thread, just took 25 minutes that I'll never get back reading it. Very curious as to what solves the issue. I've got a Combat Elite that's.....loose as a goose and hasn't given me any issues with any mags or different rounds. A good friend has a compact Kimber that has given him issues with LSWC 200 grain. Very curious thread, I look forward to reading more.

[MtGun44]

I do not claim to know what is causing this problem. I have never seen the loaded
round straight up jam EVER. I have watched and participated in literally MILLIONS of rounds
of .45 ACP going downrange from 1911s since 1980, and thought I had seen at least one
of every kind of failure that the old slabsides could do.

Let's walk through the normal feeding cycle and see what SHOULD happen. Once that is
clear, perhaps hand cycling may give a clue to what is going wrong.

Start with the slide all the way back - too strong or too many coils in the recoil spring could
mess this up. The spring on a 1911 is nearly solid at full slide travel, so the wrong spring
with too many coils could stop slide travel early, possibly creating a BOB failure. Spring strength
is controlled by wire diameter (mostly) and you can have the right strength spring with too
many coils and have the coils going solid. It is critical to know how far aft the slide can
move before it hits a hard stop.

As the slide moves fwd, the round in the mag must be presented high enough to easily
be picked up by the bottom edge of the breech face. Then the round starts moving fwd.
There are three kinds of magazines and each controls the round differently. Original tapered
lip GI mags let the round slide forward and upward, with the rim sliding under the extractor
well before it is released by the mag. This is a true controlled round feed. With hybrid lips,
there is some upward motion of the round while still in the mag lips, but the early release
may or may not release the round before it is really under the extractor. The modern
straight lipped early release mags hold the round low until it is released, giving more chance
to have the round rattle around until if "finds the hole". Maybe this holding the rear low may
increase the chance to get the nose so high.

A weak mag spring can leave the round low (slow to lift the round) and cause a BOB type of jam.
With a normal round and the rear low (GI mag) the nose of the round is not prevented from
going up steeply. A ball round has the nose of the bullet strike the top of the chamber at a
fairly low angle, forcing it forward into the chamber reliably. The short round can hit the top
of the chamber so steeply that it just stops. Roof jam. This is why they started making the
early release designs, to get the rear up to keep the nose angle into the roof flat enough to
feed.

Trying to imagine what forces will flip the loaded round straight up BEFORE it gets to the hood
and top chamber area to stop it, I am wondering if the mags are slightly too wide in the lips
and releasing the round to pop up freely rather than stay under control

Getting a force to rotate the round up like that is very odd. The breech face force against
the top of the rim would normally be pushing the nose downward, into the feed ramp of the
frame and barrel. I can't see anything that will hit the top round on the bottom front to force
the nose up so steeply. As I said, I have never seen another one of these. Seems like the
rounds are just rattling around, not under control somehow. Dirty or sticky followers? Rounds
hitting the inner corner of the slide stop? Is there any mark on the case from the vertical
jammed round that would indicate that the breech is catching fwd of the base? Is the bottom
corner of the breech sharp cornered or chamfered?

Just thinking out load here, maybe this will trigger something in somebody else's mind.

Bill

[35remington]

The breechface striking the round in the extractor groove is what forces the nose up, since it pushes the rear down and does not let the nose of the bullet strike low enough on the frame ramp. Actually it probably doesn't strike it at all.

It's possible to see this for oneself. Take a dummy round and place it in the magazine, remove the recoil spring from the pistol, and hold the slide's breechface a bit forward of the edge of the magwell. Take a magazine and insert it under the breechface so the rim is missed and the extractor groove is engaged when the magazine is seated. Now move the slide forward quickly and see what happens.

I suggested a method to test if the feed lips are releasing the round at the proper time. Just touching the dimple or the barest hair past is correct. It should not release the round when the rim is behind the dimple.

The only difference between the tapered lip hybrids and tapered lip GI's as far as release goes is in the abruptness of the release. As long as the rim is nearly under the extractor, and it is given both types of magazines and suitable ammunition, the magazine can release the round abruptly or gradually with an equal chance to get under the extractor. Distance from rim to extractor determines the odds of the rim making it there.

The more abrupt releasing hybrid is better for shorter rounds than the GI to some degree. The abruptness of the release and very slightly earlier release than a GI let a short round straighten out while it is breaking over.

A GI doesn't release anything abruptly, and as mentioned is the truest controlled round feed of any firearm, be it pistol or rifle. It never hands the round off before something else has a solid hold on it, assuming everything is working as it should. These tend to let shorter SWC's "stand straight up" instead of feeding as the release is too late and too gradual. The shorter the OAL the less the GI magazine is likely to feed the round. A too blunt bullet nose too far forward also reduces the chance the round can clear or pivot off the chamber roof as it is fed. Ideal for this type is a rounded ogive for the bullet.

Since this BOB happened with the GI, and since I'm presuming the release point to be correct, the only thing that can be causing it is the breechface hitting the round in the extractor groove. Not getting the round up in time, in other words.

[ColColt]

Dirty or sticky followers? Rounds
hitting the inner corner of the slide stop? Is there any mark on the case from the vertical
jammed round that would indicate that the breech is catching fwd of the base? Is the bottom
corner of the breech sharp cornered or chamfered?

No dirty or sticker followers. There is no evidence of any brass on the slide stop lobe. There is an indent on the brass where it was caught between the breech and the barrel hood as would be expected. The bottom corner of the breech is "radiused" or chamfered.

I double checked, since I've made spring changes to several magazines lately, and it seems the spring in that CM GI mag is the one that came with it-not the 11# spring. I have put the 11 pound Wolff spring in today but won't know if that does any good until next range visit.

You know, if manufacturers know there is an inherent problem with their springs why don't they just put in a stronger spring to begin with so customers won't have to get an after market spring strong enough to function as designed? I often wonder what guys did during WWII, Korea and Viet Nam who carried and relied on 1911's. There were no extra power springs back then and even if there were I feel sure Uncle Sam wold not have went to the extra expense and time to change the springs out. Why did they ok then and not today without a spring change? I also, am thinking out loud.



Since this BOB happened with the GI, and since I'm presuming the release point to be correct, the only thing that can be causing it is the breechface hitting the round in the extractor groove. Not getting the round up in time, in other words.

Release point seems to be correct as designed. So, why would the breech face be hitting the extractor groove?

BTW-I checked with Tom at Accurate Molds about a 230 gr mold and the closest he had to the Lyman was his 45-230M...not rounded on the end but a close copy. I'm a little reluctant to try Lyman as I've had several undersized molds which required beagling or a trip to Erik's.

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-230M-D.png

[35remington]

I can lead you all the way there, but tou have to make the connection yourself. I cannot connect all the dots for you.

Extractor groove strike, standard spring in magazine. You didn't have Wolff extra power spring in magazine. Short overtravel of Commander breech face needs stronger spring in magazine.

This should be 100 percent clear by now.

Go to 16 lb. recoil spring for Commander. You also need slower forward travel of the breech face for double redundancy.

Full size 1911's have fewer problems with BOB issues. More breech overtravel, more time for cartridge to rise to magazine lips. So a regular spring in the magazine will work just fine in nearly all instances.

I have a very strong suspicion, given your inertial issues, that things will not be 100 percent resolved until you fit a fifteen dollar small radius stop. Purchase one if inertial feeding issues continue in the Smith and one for the Commander just in case. If you have the Series 80 type firing pin safety you will need the stop for that model. It's a few bucks more, as is a stainless variant if you want a color match.

[Bulltipper]

loose lips sink ships AND cause cartridge flips...

[35remington]

For a cheap mould that throws a 230 RN of correct nose profile, get a Lee 230-2R. Loaded to 1.265" it is a good ball duplicate. You will have to use LLA, and the design doesn't suit it for a lubrisizer, but dusting the bullets with mica will reduce the objections to the sticky LLA and at least it's easy to crank out the bullets in large volume.

[35remington]

Bull, we've already established the feed lips aren't loose.

[M1A4ME]

I've used the Lee 230 (or is 225??) grain lead round nose bullet mold for two of my .45's (1911 and Combat Commander) and they worked just like hardball = Great!

As I read more on 1911 problems I realize how lucky I've been over the years. I've used every cheap magazine I could buy/use until I bought a bunch of McCormick shooting stars a few years back. No issues (except for the one that dumped the rounds, the spring, the follower and 3 or 4 rounds in the dirt one day with the welds on the bottom of the magazine failed.)

[MtGun44]

Not sure if everyone understands the firing pin stop issue. The initial contact point height
between the firing pin stop bottom radius and the hammer is a significant factor in initial
opening of the slide. If you have a large radius the contact point is high, giving the slide a lot
more leverage against the hammer, so unlocking quicker. Early unlocking means higher
residual pressure in the case, so higher forces on the slide, so fast slide stroke and
an earlier return of the breech face. Possibly beating the round rising in the mag.

With a small radius, the contact point is lower, the leverage is less, meaning the slide has
a harder time cocking the hammer, so the slide opening force is much higher.

The change in the force to rack the slide with the hammer down can be readily felt between
different radius firing pin stops. One imporant thing to remember for anyone that has
difficulty racking the slide of a 1911 to load the chamber -- manually cock the hammer first,
it substantially reduces the effort required, more in some than in others - due to variations
in the firing pin stop bottom radius.

So - the smaller radius firing pin stop will make the slide unlock later, so the pressure in the
case is lower, so the force pushing the slide is less, so the slide slows down a bit and may
permit the round to rise up in time.

As to what the GIs did - their guns worked. Why? Because they were made by Colt, and
contractors, to the EXACT GI specs, which were laid down by Browning. Nowdays everybody and his
dog is building and redesigning the details of the 1911 (intentionally and A LOT unintentionally)
because most of the folks at the factories know VERY, VERY little about 1911s. The accidentally
change certain critical dimensions and suddenly the guns are not reliable.

I know a well known and very knowledgable gunsmith that was called in to consult for Colt a
number of years ago, to solve some of their problems. He tried to get them to buy a part that
I hold the patent on to fix the breakage problem on recoil spring plugs for Officers ACPs. Colt
wouldn't pay what it took to make the parts, they dropped the Officers ACP and redesigned the
whole recoil spring system in the Defender. There is precious little space for a recoil spring in
the Officers ACP. However, set one up correctly with the single spring and our plug and it will
run perfectly. I have a lightwt Officers ACP and my business partner has a SS one, and both
run like watches. Many of the super short guns, do not.

Try to think of ANY design of a gun which has been in production this long and has been redesigned
and modified by so many companies? The Mauser 98 and variants is the only one I can think of and
a lot of the modern ones have difficulty feeding different cartridges, and there are gunsmiths out there
that know the M98 well enough to fix these things.

If anyone out there has an original Officers ACP, I sell a replacement recoil spring plug that will not
break, guaranteed. Ed Brown reviewed it years ago for Am Handgunner and said it was a good fix,
and Steve Nastoff used them in his guns when he was building Officers ACPs for the FBI- special
squad, although I haven't talked to Steve in years. He and I were commiserating on the companies
in the gun biz that steal patented parts all the time, as a matter of course.

Bill

[ColColt]

Sorry guys if I don't understand all this. I'm not a seasoned 1911 gunsmith and haven't worked much with them before other that disassemble/re-assemble, mag cleaning, recoil/magazine changing etc. All I know is I've spent in excess of $2000 on two brand name pistols that are giving problems. I've spent the better half of the past several days trying to figure it out. I've bought half a dozen magazines I didn't have before, springs that needed to replace the ones in the new magazines and now another part. Something seems wrong with all this.

You shouldn't have to go through a barrage of components and tweaking to get a pistol to function that cost what these two did. I'm just aggravated and disappointed with it all

[35remington]

"You shouldn't have to go through a barrage of components and tweaking to get a pistol to function that cost what these two did."

Given MtGun's lengthy explanation, I'm afraid that sometimes you do. Notice the plethora of different magazine designs for the 1911? This is a factor as well. As are all of the superfluous widgets everyone tries to get you to put on the pistol......mostly so they can make some money. A lot of these "improvements" are detrimental to reliability.

The intent of all the suggestions here is to get the pistol closer to the state it was in when John Browning designed it.

It's yet to be disproven that if you run it according to how the designer intended, and feed it the way it is meant to be fed, and the parts are in spec, it will be reliable.

We're just trying to return you to that point. The small radius stop isn't that big of a deal to fit. Even I can do it.

We're also trying to make you understand how some of what you have differs from that which was intended. With understanding comes acceptance of how everything is supposed to work.

Rather than "turn us off" to the design and how it works, this just makes us appreciate it more, and quite frankly marvel at how so many are getting it to work despite doing everything the wrong way.

That says something about the inherent reliability of the design. The rest is up to us to make sure it works as it is supposed to, and a large part of that is to put back in the pistol what so many have ill advisedly taken out.

One more thing. Since the small radius stop reduces slide/frame impact, the last round in the magazine is less likely to be yanked out of the magazine from inertial forces and misfeed.

Along with the spring being strong enough, and a dimple on the follower, it's triple redundancy to make sure the gun functions as it's supposed to.

[ColColt]

35remington-From all I've understood about the small radius stop, it's sole good point was to lessen felt recoil-little more other than increasing the difficulty of retracting the slide. That's what I gleaned from some reports about it but as you and Bill noted, that apparently is not all.

I remember buying a satin nickel Commander in the late 70's-a no frills no bells and whistles 4 1/4" Commander with no flared and lowered ejection port and no beaver tail safety. Not to mention the barrel wasn't throated and yet that little gun didn't give any problems. I have to wonder what happened to it over the decades as I expected this one to be even better that that one but it hasn't. Moreover, this one cost a heck of a lot more than that one and has all the above goodies added like the flared and lowered ejection port, etc. I only knew of one magazine when I bought that early one and that was the one(s) that came with the pistol. It seems we've regressed.

I have one standard 5" 1911...the SW1911 that hasn't given the problems these two have. I have to wonder if all I've seen reported that any time yo go below 5" in this model you can possibly look for problems. However, The commander has been around a long time and if it had inherent problems, I would think Colt would have addressed it long ago.

It was Bill that turned me on to the CM GI mag as he indicated how well it shot with his Commander using GDHP ammo which is what I wanted mine to do. Obviously, mine has some quirk about even hard ball and that's what puzzles me since I was using the magazine originally designed for all practical purposes by JMB. I could have understood more it causing problems with a wad cutter mag but not the USGI mag. I'm not opposed to fitting a small radius slide stop and think I could handle the small cutting/honing on one edge but I don't know if hat alone will cure it's problem. I've tried several magazines and spring strengths so I guess on other factor wouldn't hurt things any. I'm still amazed that a pistol of this caliber and cost isn't more reliable out of the box that it has been.

[btroj]

Reliability is the owners problem, not the manufacturers. They only have to sell the pistols, not make them work reliably.

I can feel your pain. Nothing is worse than a fun you want to make work yet it fights you.

[Russel Nash]

Mtn44 wrote:


...I hold the patent on to fix the....

Do you have a patent number?

I want to look this gadget up.

[35remington]

Col, in all fairness, most are reliable out of the box. You just hear more often about the ones that aren't.

The small radius stop was never intended to reduce recoil. That isn't its function. It's to reduce the impact of the slide striking the frame and reduce or eliminate inertial misfeeding issues, especially on the last round. It's a backup to a strong magazine spring and a dimple.

The reduction in felt recoil is a side benefit. Some advocate slanting the front face of the firing pin stop to make it even more effective by obtaining complete contact all along the hammer face. .

The shorter you go, the twitchier a 1911 is.

Same is true of a Glock or anything else, and it's not too hard to find all kinds of misfeeding issues with shortened variants of pistols originally intended to be bigger. Just surf some of the forums for the various autoloaders, and you'll notice complaints about function go up the more "compact" these pistols get.

[ColColt]

I have the G19 and G30 Glock. Many have had problems with FTRTB issues with the earlier models but mine has been 100% right from the start...as has the G19. I guess my luck ran out with the 1911. Well, I ain't whooped yet. These are too nice to consign as range guns or expensive paper weights. I'm going to get the EGW slide stop, hone a small radius on it and try it in the SW first. It's given more failures that the Colt. I'm of the belief that the weird jam with the Colt could be traced to the magazine. First time out with it I used primarily the Hybrid CM's with no XP spring. I had the same loads(8.2 gr of HS-6 and 230 gr FMJ) then as this past time. The one difference was this past Friday I was trying the USGI CM mags with their factory spring. First seven, no problem, second mag I had the first stand up jam. Next mag full, no problem, the fourth time another stand up jam. I quit at that point with that pistol and mag combination.

[35remington]

If you address the spring issues and fit a proper stop I think you'll have it whipped.

[MtGun44]

Another thing to check. Take out the recoil spring but leave in the spring guide. Do these
guns have guide rods? Not a fan of guide rods, but mostly because they make takedown
harder.

Pull the slide back until it hits a hard stop and make a pencil mark on the frame top where
the breech face reaches. Then put the spring back in and do it again. If the slide still goes
the same distance to the rear, this is good - it means the spring is not going solid on you.
If the stroke is shorter, you need to consider cutting a turn off of the spring to see if you
can get the travel back. This will slightly lower the spring force, but that may be less important
than getting full travel to the rear.

This could be the whole thing - shortening the slide travel critically due to too many coils and/or
too thick of wire. Thinner wire (softer spring) will stack up shorter. About 20 some coils
times .003 smaller wire is .060" travel reduction, potentially.

As to the Glocks, the guys that designed them are still alive and still know exactly what dimensions
and features are critical. See if some other company making a Glock in 100 yrs would make them
as reliable?

Bill

[Char-Gar]

Well Col. are you having fun yet? I am 50 years deep into 1911 pistols and those 50 years have taught me the following for what it is worth.

1. The farther you drift from the 1911A1 design, the more problems you have.
2. The vast majority of the gew-gaws and gadgets that folks come up with to improve the design, do not improve anything, are not worth the money and quite often reduces the reliability of the pistol.
3. I have owned a dozen or so, Commander length 1911s. and have never had the reliability in them I did in a full size 1911. So, I don't own them anymore.
4. Paying more money does not buy reliability. I own 2 1911A1 Norincos which cost less than $300 each. I changed the sights, replaced the Chineese springs with Wolf 1911 service pack and both are 100% reliable with both factory and handloads.
5. I have bought about a half dozen new autopistols in the past five years, both Sig, Colt and Glock. The only ones that did not require a break in period are the Glocks.
6. I have not found the need for magic magazines or magazine springs. Stock Colt, Metalform and Springer mags function in all of my 1911 Pistols.

If I owned your pistols, I would put back all of the factory parts, shoot each one a minimum of 500 rounds and they still malfunctioned, I would send them back to the folks who made them with a nasty letter. I would not waste my time with all of the convoluted, different and often contradictory advise I get on these gun boards.

Thle original 1911 design has a well deserved reputation for being a top notch combat pistol. When folks start trying to turn it into something it was not designed to be, $^*( happens.

[376Steyr]

I'll throw in one more factor for consideration. ColColt, do you currently have "average" strength in your hands/wrists/arms? Any injuries or the like that may cause the guns to recoil in odd directions and mess up the timing of ejecting and feeding?

[ColColt]

The shorter you go, the twitchier a 1911 is.


The thing that bugs me about this is what are the SA 3-3 1/2" barrel 1911's doing these days? I forget the model number...ETM or something like that. Also, Kimber makes short barrel 1911's and a host of others. Are all the owners of these two having similar problems? This Commander, and for that matter, the 4.25" barrel on the SW1911SC, has been around nearly as long as me. Again I say, if there's an inherent problems with the short barrel, looks like Colt would have either addressed it's shortcomings or have taken it out of stock.

Bill-Both of these pistols have the steel guide rod. I'm a fan of those and have no problem with them. I had a 16# spring in the SW when it malfunctioned last time. The first time it jammed with the 3-point jam a few weeks back and then the double feed(sort of) problem this past Friday. I have the standard spring in the Commander-probably 18# or whatever currently Colt is putting in them.


Well Col. are you having fun yet?

No, I ain't-not one little bit.

I have what I consider average strength in my hands-no arthritis yet but those hands aren't 30 years old anymore either. I don't believe that to be an issue.

I'm going to try it again either this Friday or next.I've got more magazines now that I've ever had before(about 12-14) but all are quality mags and not the $7.50 ones you find on sale on ebay or gun shows...CM, Tripp in 7 and 8 round and Wilson ETM's. Also, I have the mags that came with the Colt, which I think both are CM-one 7 and one 8 rounder. I have two of the CM USGI mags along with their 7 round Hybrid mags and have put the 11# Wolff springs in them. That's a LOT of spring to try and push down in a 7 round magazine!! You've got about 3" poking out the top of the mag when you're trying to get the follower in, and it's plenty strong.

Bill-I wanted to try what you recommended but searched high and low and no pencil to be found here. I'll get one from work tomorrow. Surely someone has one. They're almost a relic.

[Ronbo256]

Col Colt, I think you live near me, maybe we could get together and see if we can figure out what the problem is. PM me if you want to try, I usually shoot the tl230 Lee boolit in my .45's so we can even try my ammo if you want.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

ColColt, I found this article in the current Feb 2012 Shooting Times; Dick Metcalf’s article page 32: “…you can encounter a bolt-over-base misfeed, where the slide runs past the edge of the case rim but still pushes the cartridge forward by pressure on the slightly upward-tilted case body. This usually results with the cartridge standing straight up between the barrel hood and the slide.”

Mr. Metcalf is describing problems in super short 1911’s with 3 and 3 ½” barrels which the Commander is not, but this sounds like it addresses what you encountered.

[btroj]

Like I said before, the manufacturers make guns to sell, not to shoot. How many guys buy a short barreled 1911 for a carry gun but never shoot it much? How many have no clue how reliable there is, or isn't?
Most gun owners are just that, gun owners. Most are not shooters in the sense that most of us are.

Selling guns is like selling fishing tackle. It only has to look pretty and sell, it doesn't need to actually be better or work. It is all about the marketing.

[FN in MT]

Been reading this since the start...Hoping the original poster gets it straightened out. This is NOT meant to add salt to HIS wound.


I have gotten **** in the past when I mention my Ed Brown or Wilson combat 1911's. "How can you spend THAT MUCH money...when my _______ (fill in the name of any cheap 1911) , works just fine".

Or... "How can your Brown or Wilson that costs three or four times more than my _____ truly be...three or four times better"?

I can not recall a malfunction with either the EB or the Wilson this past IDPA season despite firing 6K+ rds.

I carry another EB a Commander length gun as my EDC. Again...despite 1K or more rds down the pipe so far...can not recall a malfunction.

Hmmm.....

FN in MT

[ColColt]

FN-I think it's all how we live. Apparently, I haven't been living right. I have a $516 SW4506 that I've had for 21 years and never...never has it given me one minutes trouble. The springs in the SW magazine aren't near as strong as the ones in my Wolff sprung CM mags yet there's been no bullet shape it hasn't fed with equal aplomb. I don't know.

Maybe it the combination of certain guns, feed ramps and barrel ramps and magazines along with other factors that makes one more reliable than another. These are all man made machines-prone to error and malfunction like two different people buying the same car. One runs like a sewing machine, makes nearly no sound while idling and gets 40 miles to the gallon while the other guy with the same car can't get better than 35 mpg and it sounds like a valve constantly knocking. Some are lucky and some aren't. You, apparently, have been lucky. I don't think the price of the machine has much to do with it. I've read of folks that own Norinco's that haven't given the problem my two have and they were twice or better what a Chinese Norinco cost.

[slide]

ColColt , I 'm with you. Man, it ticks me off when something doesn't work. All these problems should not happen. Brand new guns should not have to be worked on out of the box. I hope you get this resolved to your satisfaction. Hang in there brother! Just my two cents.

[gew98]

As noted NO shorter than an issue length 1911/1911A1 will be 100% reliable. That's just the reality of it. On the flip side I have never had a problem with my GI ( original ) 1911's or A1's that I shoot. I have friends with numerous modern day incarnations of the 1911 that are either too tight in tolerances and or just are real PITA to find a reliable load for them.
KISS... closest to the original deal always has worked for me with the 1911 pistols.

[waksupi]

I can't agree with that. My Combat Commander is absolutely dependable, but I have done quite a bit of work to it. I would not go with any smaller model.

[MtGun44]

My Ltwt Commander has never jammed once on Gold Dot factory, Gold Dot handload copies,
and my std H&G 68 IPSC load, either. There is something wrong with those guns, and
the CAN be fixed.

I have a Kimber Classic Custom series one that has had MANY rounds through it and
the ONLY "malfunctions" have been a few failures to close with extremely dirty
chamber, maybe 5000 rds between cleaning. Original springs everywhere,
shooting since 1990s, whenever they first came out.

Bill

[Char-Gar]

FN-I think it's all how we live. Apparently, I haven't been living right. I have a $516 SW4506 that I've had for 21 years and never...never has it given me one minutes trouble. The springs in the SW magazine aren't near as strong as the ones in my Wolff sprung CM mags yet there's been no bullet shape it hasn't fed with equal aplomb. I don't know.

Maybe it the combination of certain guns, feed ramps and barrel ramps and magazines along with other factors that makes one more reliable than another. These are all man made machines-prone to error and malfunction like two different people buying the same car. One runs like a sewing machine, makes nearly no sound while idling and gets 40 miles to the gallon while the other guy with the same car can't get better than 35 mpg and it sounds like a valve constantly knocking. Some are lucky and some aren't. You, apparently, have been lucky. I don't think the price of the machine has much to do with it. I've read of folks that own Norinco's that haven't given the problem my two have and they were twice or better what a Chinese Norinco cost.

Col Colt... I think you have broken the code and it is about how we live. I have two Norinco 1911A1s and they are stone reliable. But I do have a pure heart!

[MtGun44]

ColColt -
If you are sick of dinking with it, send them back with pix of the failures. Maybe they
will do something useful.

Bill

[ColColt]

Col Colt... I think you have broken the code and it is about how we live. I have two Norinco 1911A1s and they are stone reliable. But I do have a pure heart!

That's it. I'm paying for the sins of my youth through aggravation with pistols. I knew it would happen some day. And, there I thought it was ex-wives.

Bill-Wasn't it a Commander you had problems with using GD's until you switched to the CM USGI mag? Maybe it was a steel model. No, I'm not tired of messing with them I'd just like to figure why two guns at the same time with similar problems with different manufacturers. I bought those two within a month or so of each other (being single has it's advantages) and didn't think I'd have trouble with either of them. Well, as Gomer said, surprise, surprise, surprise.

My EGW firing pin stop will be here tomorrow and that'll give me something to do before next range trip next week. I'm hoping that with the changing of the springs to stronger ones and this tweak I'll be ok. If not, I'll sell both of them and get a Glock(kidding of course). I have one of those, too.

[MtGun44]

The only problems was that in hand loading the first round, I felt a perceptible hitch
in the feeding. It never malfunctioned, but I wondered if that rough spot may eventually
end up with a hangup. It runs smoother with GI mags.

Did you ever check to see if the recoil spring is going solid and limiting rearward travel?

Bill

[ColColt]

Did you ever check to see if the recoil spring is going solid and limiting rearward travel?

Bill

I'm not sure what you mean here. I did take the recoil spring out and mark the slide when I first felt a "bump" and reinstalled the spring and did likewise. It was at the same mark as before without the spring.

[BD]

As noted NO shorter than an issue length 1911/1911A1 will be 100% reliable. That's just the reality of it. On the flip side I have never had a problem with my GI ( original ) 1911's or A1's that I shoot. I have friends with numerous modern day incarnations of the 1911 that are either too tight in tolerances and or just are real PITA to find a reliable load for them.
KISS... closest to the original deal always has worked for me with the 1911 pistols.

I haven't found this to be true. I have seen far more match malfunctions in 5" 1911s than in the shorter guns. Generally newer shooters using new reloads in new 5" 1911s. To be fair, I have seen many more 5" pistols at matches than the shorties, and in my experience, the guys shooting their shorter carry guns in matches are generally more experienced, and less concerned with winning the match, than with making sure their rigging runs well.

Like MtGun I have a Kimber series I Custom Classic that has been very reliable. It had a failure to eject at 50,000 rounds due to a broken ejector, and it started having last case three point jambs at about 75,000 rounds before I rebuilt it. I also have a 4" Pro Carry that has never missed a beat and a Kimber a 3" series I that has been flawless except for premature slide lock back with BD acps. I broke the extended ejector off of the 3" pistol slamming 10 round mags into it at a match one day and it still ran 100%. It's never has failed with any JHPs, but it only has 10,000 rounds through it. I'll be curious to see how that aluminum frame holds up over the long term.

Oddly enough I've had much worse luck with revolvers.

BD

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Dick Metcalf says in his Shooting Times Feb 2012 article that “On full-sized 1911s the breechface of the slide begins its return forward from a position approximately 3/8 inch behind the rear of the magazine well; a 3-inch slide starts right up against it. There is no “run-up” time with the 3-incher…” The Commander is not a 3 incher but I measured one of my 5” Colts from the most rearward position of the slide, the distance from the breechface to the rim of the top cartridge in the magazine was ½”.

I have seen far more malfunctions with Glock than with 1911’s. Oh, wait I see a lot more Glocks being fired than I do the 1911.

Limp-wristing is a term created by the firearms manufacturers to deflect blame from their poor quality control. If you have a malfunction caused by limp wristing, then you should be able to duplicate the same malfunction by intentionally limp wristing the pistol. This has not been the case in my experience.

ColColt, your character has been called into question as the cause of your reliability troubles. If you claim to be able to walk in the light of day with righteous men, yet continue to have reliability issues with your 1911, perhaps your forefathers dabbled in the occult, tarot cards or a Ouija boards. Do you really want to try your 1911 at the range on Friday the 13th?

[ColColt]

ColColt, your character has been called into question as the cause of your reliability troubles. If you claim to be able to walk in the light of day with righteous men, yet continue to have reliability issues with your 1911, perhaps your forefathers dabbled in the occult, tarot cards or a Ouija boards. Do you really want to try your 1911 at the range on Friday the 13th?

No problem Jack-It's been called into question before and I'm sure it won't be the last. I know little about my ancestry and have questioned it with my sister before. Perchance some of our ancestors were burned at the stake or put on the rack for less than I've done.

I'm planning on another trip next Friday if it hair lips every aborigine in the Congo. I may need to go when the doors open as to not put fellow shooters in jeopardy. Personally, I think it's a curse from one of my ex-wives...probably the one before last. In her former life I think she was tried and convicted at Salem.

Many thanks to those for the recommendation of getting an EGW FP stop. I received it today and spent about an hour with it. Side to side measurements of my old one was .477 and EGW's was .483"-quite a difference. I filed and honed with an Arkansas hard stone until I got both sides lessened and side to side measurement was .479. Still a bit snug but fit well. Thankfully the firing pin hole seemed to be well centered. I put an ever so slight radius on it as recommended and primarily did that with a stone after a few passes with the file. The stone cleaned it up smooth and while the slide is a bit different when racking back, there's not a world of difference in the actual feel-a tad stiffer but it won't take Hercules to rack it back. I'm hoping this in conjunction with the extra power springs int he 7 round magazines will clear up this problem. If so, I may add another EGW stop to the SW.

[35remington]

Despite varying experiences, statistically the function of a 1911 will be more compromised the shorter you go. As has been noted by myself and by others elsewhere on this thread, the shortest 1911 variants.....those approaching 3 inches, give very little time for the round in the magazine to be fed because the breechface stops and returns forward only a very slight distance from the back of the magazine well.

This isn't good.

This isn't a guarantee a given pistol will or will not function. But that's the way to bet in terms of reliability for a given size of 1911. If you increase the odds that a malfunction will occur, it is likely to happen more often than when those odds are stacked more in your favor.

Col, what you're going to do is certainly a step in the right direction. I would see how the stop works as is, and an additional benefit of a more closely fitted stop is reduced clocking of the extractor.

The stop can be tapered to reduce any gap between hammer and stop to ensure that the fulcrum point starts out as low on the hammer as possible. As normally fitted the hammer touches the stop just above the firing pin hole while leaving a gap between the lower part of the hammer and the stop.

A fitted stop is said to provide the maximum benefit. But shoot it as you've fitted it with only the side to side work and we will address a taper later if it is needed.

FWIW none of the 1911's supplied for the 1911 trials or for WWI had fitted stops; they just had the small radius.

[ColColt]

I saw on another 1911 forum today where they were discussing the installation of the EGW FP stop and someone was concerned that "the increasingly forward position of the hammer could cause the hammer strut to lose firm contact with the mainspring cap, become loose and thus fail to keep the hammer in firm contact with the FPS. Thinking this condition is undesirable, the easiest remedy would be a longer hammer strut - but I don't know if longer hammer struts are available."

They sort of lost me as I thought there was no problem, only benefit with adding this tweak. Another point of interest is how do you know, and is there a was to test, whether you have full hammer contact or not?

If anyone's interesting about this, it's discussed in the link below. I followed everything until later in the thread, then they lost me.

http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=97939&page=1&pp=10

[MtGun44]

If the slide is going back to the same point with and without the spring, then it is fine. It is
possible to have a spring where all the coils compress until there is no space between them
and this is like a solid tube - "going solid" - which could limit the rearward travel.

Have you checked the extractor tension? I have found many guns with little or no extractor
tension. Pull the firing pin stop, then the firing pin and pry out the extractor with a tiny
screwdriver. If it comes out and goes back in to flush, smoothly with little or no force, then
it needs to be bent to provide proper tension. I don't think this is an issue, but maybe if
the round is not being properly controlled by the extractor, as intended. . . .

You want the extractor to require a good, firm thumb push to get it flush with the rear of
the slide. If not, put the butt end of the extractor into the slide (install backwards) and use
the slide as a lever to bend the extractor a tiny bit by bearing against a plastic or wood
surface (it may mar the surface, choose wisely). Increase tension by bending towards the
hook (more pressure on the rim). Sadly, many new 1911s come with little or no tension.

Bill

[35remington]

Col, I don't think I'd be worried about strut contact. The hammer strut still contacts without the FP stop in place (check for yourself with the stop out, moving the hammer back to see if there's any gap) and if any amount of stop remains in place, as it most assuredly will, the hammer strut will remain in contact.

[ColColt]

The extractor tension seems ok. I also put a 230 gr dummy round under the extractor and against the breach face and turned the slide every way possible and the round still stayed put-not stiff but moved only a little but didn't fall out.

I think the proof will be next week when I can get back to the range. With the addition of 11# springs either from Wolff or CM and the new firing pin stop that should tell me more than before.I took one of the 8 round Colt(CM) mags and put a 7 round spring kit in it from Tripp and anxious to see how that one will perform as well.

[MtGun44]

Have you tried the tension the way I mentioned - by how much force it takes to seat the
extractor into the slide? This is the way that I have always checked them. I have no idea
if your method is useful or not, no offense but I just don't know if it tells you anything
useful.

Bill

[ColColt]

I did, Bill. My method is supposedly "tried and true" by folks like Bill Wilson and others. I read about checking that way long ago. Somewhere around here is a book on the 1911 that shows/tells about that way of checking the extractor. Brownell's even sells a gauge to check, also.With your method it's sort of hit and miss in that most novices won't know the difference between "I've got it right" and actually being too tight. Maybe there some credence to the gauge for a more scientific approach but I'm open to suggestions. Is there only one way? I don't know.

I do know that excessive extractor tension can also cause the extractor to dig into the cartridge rim. That could cause inconsistent feeding or an intermittent feeding problem but I really don't think the problem my two pistols have are extractor related. Two new guns with the same problem? I lean more toward the magazine(s)/springs.

http://www.m1911.org/technic2.htm

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/lid=10261/learn/1911_Auto_Extractor_Adjustment

[MtGun44]

The biggest problem I have seen that is extractor related is failure to extract reliably. How
surprising! I have seen the gages, never bothered with them. If the extractor pushes
in firmly, it will work fine, IME.

Well - occasionally the hook breaks off after 50-100,000 rds. At that point, the tension
is not helpful, of course.

Best wishes, hope you get this sorted.

Bill

[ColColt]

I'll be long gone before either of those 45's get 50,000.