solution ofr 9mm 125gn lswc tipping bullets

[southerncomforthemi]

I have a problem.

I am trying to develop a bulleye load for 50 yards.

At 50FT! I am getting 90% of bullets tipping.

My 1911 New Kart NM barrel, with no leading is .355 bore and my bullets are .357.

I am using minimal to no taper crimp.

N320 powder 3.8 to 4.2 gn .....still tipping

MY 125gn LRN do not tip but dont group to well enough.

Any thoughts or suggestion on load?

I am currently using Missouri bullets for testing.

All my other reloads...45 and .38 work just fine.

[Artful]

Go higher velocity or Go to a shorter length bullet. What twist is your Kart barrel?

[GabbyM]

Something isn’t right. Tipping bullets is 90% of the time undersized boolit for the grove diameter.

My first look would be at swaging down the bullets with a crimp die. You say little to no crimp but zero crimp is what you are looking for. The taper crimp on auto cartridges like 9x19mm and 45 acp are to turn back the case neck flare.
How sure are you that your grove diameter is .355". Are your bullets truly .357" or are you just going buy what the box says?

[GabbyM]

What die are you using to expand the cases?
See that it's deep enough and fat enough. 9mm cases are generally tough and will swag down #15 BHN alloy bullets with ease as I've proven to myself on many occasions.

[fecmech]

I would suggest one of the truncated cone style 9mm bullets such as the Lee 120 TC or RCBS of similar design. They feed as well as rn and have shot them at lower velocities with no stability problems at all and excellent accuracy. I don't have a "Bullseye" capable 9MM currently but both the Lee and RCBS TC bullets will consistently shoot less than 2"@ 50 yds out of my K-38 revolver. Here are a bunch of indoor 50' groups shot with those bullets, this is what less than 2"@ 50yds looks like at 50'. Targets were shot left to right top to bottom. The battery compartment on my dot sight had loosened up on the lower left target and I must have had a bad bullet in the next group for the flyer. At any rate it's obvious the TC bullets shoot!

[Bullet Caster]

Boolit fit...boolit fit...boolit fit. A properly fitted boolit to the bore is the most necessary item in reloading 9mm. If the boolit doesn't fit the groove then you are going to get tumbling and sideways hitting boolits. This has been shown to be true for almost all cast boolits. The boolit must fit the bore or .001 to .002 over bore size. You should slug and remeasure your bore with a micrometer to obtain correct results. I don't think boolit design plays that important of a role in shooting 9mm if the boolit is "matched" to your bore. Just my 2 cents worth. BC

[moptop]

All of the above posters are giving good advice but don't forget about case length. I have a BHP the is picky when it come to that. Mine likes cases
.749" - .750", anything shorter and they are all over the place. My little Lee case trimmer thingy trims them way too short, .746" IIRC. If you have reloaded your brass more that 3x then you will want to start measuring them the next time around. They get shorter each time they're shot. Ihave also found that Remington brass is longer from the start and is more consistant in length than WWB.

Hope this helps.

[southerncomforthemi]

Hi,

Thanks for the input.

Yes I have checked the bore and bullet size by slugging....the bore is .355 and the unfired bullet is .357

I tested and round all if the barrel ok.......though I did have some failure to fire even though I had primer strikes.......again this never happens with the same sized LRN...strange.

I am getting some leading when I go over 4.0gn of N320. and a touch of primer cratering.

I have got some different powder to try, Bullseye, Titegroup and W231.........any load suggestions you have found accurate and reliable?

[bobthenailer]

I use .357 dia cast bullets in all of my 9mms & 38 supers , even though the bores run .355 to .356 ,and one super has a Kart Barrel .
IME med fast to med powders work best for target loads , my favorites are WSF , Power pistol & HS6 in the 9 & super. and have also found that the TC nose profile are more accurate than rn in my guns. also use the same brand of brass and only those that measure at .750 to .755 after there resized, the shorter ones use for plinking or as i did sold them so i would not get them mixed up.
With CAST BULLETS in the 9 or super it is going to take alot of work to get constantant 3" or better groups at 50 yards, if its even possible ? but it can be done with jacketed bullets though.
the 45 acp is alot more forgiving with cast or jacketed.

'

[Shiloh]

Did you slug the bore? Is it really .355?

Mine get run through a .358 sizer. The 9mm's gave me fits to get shooting. The ONLY mold that drops big enough is the LEE 125 gr. Round nose from a six banger mold. I have three LEE molds.

Shiloh

[southerncomforthemi]

Hi Shiloh....yes I did slug the bore its .3553.

I am using a length of 1.065 with little or no crimp and the bullets are coming out at .379

I cant see why LRN and factory loads work perfectly, all be it inaccurately to various degrees, but LSWC keep tumbling even at 50 ft.

Anybody got a good working bullseye load for 125gn LSWC for N320, Bullseye, W321 or Titegroup.

Thanks once again for all your assistance

[Shiloh]

I can't either.

I bought an extra LEE 140 gr. SWC mould that I was going to have the back band milled off.
This was to give me a 120 gr. or so boolit that would be large enough for the nine. I have an old P-85 that slugs at .3564. Thats why I asked.

The LEE 105 SWC does not feed well. So I never proceeded with milling on the 140. One has to force it shut as it hangs op on the rim of the wadcutter part.
A heavier recoil spring may be part of the solution.

Factory cast 9mm boolits would tumble and even miss an NRA 50' Slowfire Bullseye target. They were .356+. Same with the LEE TC boolit and the LEE 9mm TL
boolits. Too small.

Shiloh

[MtGun44]

Measure a boolit with MICROMETER, not caliper.

Seat in case exactly like you do when loading.

Pull the boolit.

Measure diameter.

My bet is that the boolit will be smaller, resized by the case.

Keyholing with 9mm is very common, and is usually too small and too hard boolits. Yours
are STARTING the right size, so let's make sure that they STAY the right size after seating.
If you have a .38 Spl die set, try expanding and flaring a few with the button from the
.38 Spl die, and repeat the above test.

Bill

[GabbyM]

Doesn’t seam like my first post #3 and 4 were clearly written.

You may have a .357” bullet going into your 9mm case but if it gets swaged down in the process it will not be .357” coming out. IMHO this is why many shooter think they need a .358” boolit in a 9mm. Gives you .001 plus to sacrifice before going under. Expanding a case with a boolit is a very poor set-up. Specially with a 9x19mm case which is very tough and thick compared to most revolver cases. 9mm cases will absolutely size down a bullet. Boolits will not expand a 9x19mm case. Doesn’t matter how hard your lead is. I keep hearing , for the last thirty years, stories of how hard it is to shoot lead in a 9mm. Not true. You just can not expand a 9mm case with a lead bullet. Does not work that way. The bullet gets swaged down to the case. You must expand the case to no more than .002” under bullet size and preferably .001”.

If you are using a Dillon get the die for the 38 Special. Dillon is ignorant. I’ve tried to talk to them but they are a bunch of dumb asses. They say if your bullet does not start just bell the case more. DUH. I have the emails here. Unbelievable.

A Lyman M die in 9mm will generally fit any 9mm bullet with success. I’m not a big Lyman products fan but the M die is a great cast boolit item.

I’ll tell you right now that if your bullets are tumbling you are swaging them down in the loading process. It’s either due to lack of case expanding or crimping them down.

We aren’t flying to the moon here. Or breaking any new ground. Your bullet is undersized.

[GabbyM]

Measure a boolit with MICROMETER, not caliper.

Seat in case exactly like you do when loading.

Pull the boolit.

Measure diameter.

My bet is that the boolit will be smaller, resized by the case.

Keyholing with 9mm is very common, and is usually too small and too hard boolits. Yours
are STARTING the right size, so let's make sure that they STAY the right size after seating.
If you have a .38 Spl die set, try expanding and flaring a few with the button from the
.39 Spl die, and repeat the above test.

Bill

Well Bill you beat me to it before I finished my post.

As usual you can say in five lines as much as I say in five paragraphs.
Mastery of English language has never been my strong point. Unfortunate as that’s the only communication I have with the rest of humanity.

[williamwaco]

Measure a boolit with MICROMETER, not caliper.

Seat in case exactly like you do when loading.

Pull the boolit.

Measure diameter.

My bet is that the boolit will be smaller, resized by the case.

Keyholing with 9mm is very common, and is usually too small and too hard boolits. Yours
are STARTING the right size, so let's make sure that they STAY the right size after seating.
If you have a .38 Spl die set, try expanding and flaring a few with the button from the
.39 Spl die, and repeat the above test.

Bill


Thanks Bill. I didn't think anyone was going to mention that.

In my experience this is the single most frequent cause ( after undersized bullets. )

southern, This is good advice. heed it.



.

[Artful]

My other thought is powder choices - I've used Red Dot with some success with 9x19 but Unique actually seemed more friendly with getting a load to shoot.

[MtGun44]

I have also had very good results with Unique in 9mm. I used the Lee 105 SWC in
my Browning HP as my first ever mold and first ever pistol reloading. Worked fine.

Bill

[southerncomforthemi]

thanks guys.

The bullets are .0002 over size so that is not the problem....measures a slugged bullet to check dimensions of barrel with micrometer.


I AM THE PROBLEM>>>>>>>>G

The seating die was seating the bullets , without shaving any lead, really tight ion the case.

It tool 10 hits with a kinetic hammer to get them apart.

I expanded the case further and then was able to get a a 0001 taper crimp.

Now they tap out with 2 good hits.....

Let you know Tuesday at the range if this solves the problem.

[noylj]

In most cases, the problem is boolit fit. In other cases, it can be a barrel so leaded up that the bullet can't grip the rifling.
The problem many have, particularly those new to loading lead bullets, is NOT using a large enough expander. In fact, many simply use a case mouth belling/flaring tool and do not expand the case ID at all. This can work for a jacketed bullet, though it will often cause a bulge in the case where the case wall is thinnest and seat the bullet crooked.
For lead bullets, this will cause the bullet to be unevenly swaged down in diameter and the other problems mentioned.
For a 0.357" bullet, you should, at the very least, be using a .38special expander that is 0.356-0.357" in diameter. You want the case ID to be 0.001" less than bullet diameter (and no more than 0.002" less than bullet diameter).
Measuring things, including pulled bullets, will quickly point out where the problem is.
Case expansion is VERY important and most new reloaders seem to know nothing about it.

[southerncomforthemi]

Thanks NOYLJ....I am using a Lyman M1 Expanding die .38 spl and it looks like you have , as others here, have hit the nail on the head.

This has never been an issue for me with .45 and .38 special so I was surprised to find I was getting all wrong.....now I know...G

I have expanded the case further.

Tomorrow is testing day at the range so we will see........I have left all other parameters the same.

I cant see why 3.8 N2320 would not work just fine but we will see.

Thanks

[mstarling]

I think you may have located the problem. I ran into this with major Super. Had to control the taper crimp to just enough to hold the bullet with minimum distortion. Long range accuracy immediately improved.

[southerncomforthemi]

Went to the range today.....there was some improvement about 50% key holed, better that the 90 before.

I am going to reduce the crimp even further.

Still using 3.8gn N320.

I am also going to try w231 .

Its not in nature to quit on a problem but I shot 90 rounds of 124gn LRN without a single problem and they grouped quit well.........its just that lswc, I have been tols will give a smller group when I get it right.

[MtGun44]

It is not a reasonable expectation to assume that a SWC will be more accurate than a RN
design as any sort of a general rule.

Try Unique.

Bill

[noylj]

It has been my experience for 45+ years that the average well-cast SWC will be more accurate than a similar well-cast RN. In fact, for target accuracy, and not action pistol work, I doubt you will find a RN any where on the line.
I rate bullets in terms of benchrest accuracy for handguns as:
JHP
L-SWC
L-CFN
FMJ-FN
JSWC
FMJ
L-RN
I have been continually disappointed in the accuracy of JSWCs over the years--from very light target loads to full-power magnum loads, they have been very disappointing.
YMMV, but that is the result of working with over 50 handguns over the years.

[noylj]

When you slugged the barrel, did you feel any areas where the slug moved easier? This could be an area where the bullet will lose the seal on the bore and you will get flame cutting on the bullet.
I am still scratching my head. I have never gotten "keyholing," where the bullet passes through the target sideways, with any lead bullet, properly cast.
I do not know if this was covered, but are you getting leading in the barrel? Was this barrel used with J-bullets or only cast lead? Are the bullets' bases all filled out completely without any knicks or other faults where escaping powder gases could knock the bullet into a yaw?
Again, without re-reading everything, have you pulled a couple of seated bullets to measure the post-seating bullet diameter and to look for any lead shaved off the driving bands?
Crimp is just NOT the issue. You keyhole from bullet or barrel problems.

[southerncomforthemi]

I have micrometer a slugged bullet...it is .3553

The Missouri LSWC are .3568 to .3571.

The bullets are cast to a high standard and I use them for .38 &.45 with no problem.

Bases are fine.

The Kart barrel is new...the lands in the barrel are on the shallow side...but that is the way they make them.

[MtGun44]

Shallow lands can contribute to poor accy, without harder or bigger boolits. So far my
Sig, Beretta, Walther, Browning and Astra 9mms are very happy with straight wwts or
range lead at 8-12 BHN approx., but .357 or .358 diam with NRA 50-50 or LBT soft blue lubes.

Bill

[southerncomforthemi]

I have the solution...at last thanks for all your help.

Today I shot 100 rounds with no keyholing.

I used 3.8 - 4.0 of W231.

All bullet oal from 1.0625 to 1.125 worked a ok..............mixed brass

The secret was to make sure that during the seating and taper crimping process the lead bullet diameter was never reduced to less than +.3565 form its original measurement of.357.

I was not expanding the case wide enough so when crimping the bullet was getting reduced too much.

The taper crimped edge case at the very lip was .378

Next week I will try with my N320, again, to see if it was the powder or the careful expanding and crimping that was the solution.

One quick question which produces the greatest accuracy.......loading long or short?.

Thanks once again for helping with this.

[Grandpas50AE]

thanks guys.

The bullets are .0002 over size so that is not the problem....measures a slugged bullet to check dimensions of barrel with micrometer.


I AM THE PROBLEM>>>>>>>>G

The seating die was seating the bullets , without shaving any lead, really tight ion the case.

It tool 10 hits with a kinetic hammer to get them apart.

I expanded the case further and then was able to get a a 0001 taper crimp.

Now they tap out with 2 good hits.....

Let you know Tuesday at the range if this solves the problem.

With semi-autos, which headspace on the case mouth, frequently the problem using SWC style boolits (whether jacketed or cast either one) is a matter of headspacing, especially with FTRB or feed anomolies. From the sound of it, you are hitting the shoulder of the SWC boolit just before the case mouth contacts the chanber end. This can give feed and FTRB problems (been there already) and can occasionally cause booit skew when finally going into battery or firing. Try seating your SWC boolit a little bit deeper (give it about .005 or .010 freespace when in battery), and it is probable your results will improve. The SWC design, having that full caliber shoulder just under the ogive, makes semi-autos a little more finicky on seating depth.

[southerncomforthemi]

I have no reliability issue with any oal from 1.0625 up to 1.125 I was just wondering which produces the best accuracy for bullseye.

[southerncomforthemi]

Problem totally cured.

I was not expanding the cases with my Lyman M1 die enough and was getting over crimping.

Now the Taper crimp does not reduce the bullet size below .3565 when I slug a bullet.

This gives me just over .001 inch compression of the bullet in the barrel.

Now shoots 3.6 - 4.0 of W231 with no problems with a wide range of OAL.

Still getting some leading in my new kart barrel.

Next problem will be to find an accurate load at 50 yards, w231, bullseye. Tight group, or N320.

[southerncomforthemi]

Tried N320 today...70% of bullets keyholed....3.8gn

100% of W231 did not keyhole..............had some problems with reliability seems that W231 is temperature sensitive...we live and learn

[Philngruvy]

Measure a boolit with MICROMETER, not caliper.

Seat in case exactly like you do when loading.

Pull the boolit.

Measure diameter.

My bet is that the boolit will be smaller, resized by the case.

Keyholing with 9mm is very common, and is usually too small and too hard boolits. Yours
are STARTING the right size, so let's make sure that they STAY the right size after seating.
If you have a .38 Spl die set, try expanding and flaring a few with the button from the
.39 Spl die, and repeat the above test.

Bill

Bill, do you mean the Lyman M die in .38 special?

[southerncomforthemi]

Yes, the 38spl work great...

[MtGun44]

Not M die, just a larger than 9mm size of expander nose.

9mm jacketed bullets run about .355-.356, .38/357 jbullets run about .357, so usually
the expander for a .38 Spl die set is a bit bigger than a 9mm expander. This may
help keep from resizing the boolits in the case.

Bill

[noylj]

Since all one needs to know about bullet diameter is 0.00x, a caliper will work. If you need the ten thousandths, then a dial caliper will at least get you in range.
With keyholing, was the barrel leaded up? Where was leading?
Don't be afraid to use a .357" bullet in 9x19, but as said, measure the case ID and bullet OD before and after seating. For lead bullets, most expanders are barely adequate. Nice thing about the m-die is that there are lots of inserts one can buy or have a custom insert made.
If someone knows, please tell me how powder can affect keyholing, other than a FAST powder and a SLOW powder. In this case, the burn rates are just not the different.

[dsol]

I get to go back to the drawing board myself... I am experiencing the same @$^$%^@! problems with Lee 358-125 RF boolits sized to .357. I would have swore that I loaded some dummy rounds and pulled a few to make sure the cases were not swaging the boolits. I loaded up 100 or so rounds with varying amounts of W231 to find the sweet load. Boy was I off base.

25 yards, the things patterened like a shotgun out of my KelTec sub2k carbine. Over half the ones that hit the stuipd target were sideways. I amm going to go and load up a few more dummy loads, pull and see if they are swaging down. If so, I will try an expander from one of my extra sets of 38 spl dies and see what happens.

I do my volume loading on a Dillon Square Deal but a trusty single stage for development. I guess if the expander fixes the problem, I will just use the Dillon expander from my 38/357 die set in the 9mm for the SDB press.

I tried using the boolits as cast (.358) but my KelTec has too tight of a chamber. I am sorely tempted to take some fine emery cloth and "smooth" it out a bit... my cheapo Hi-Point carbine is going to get its "planet of the apes" stock back since it did not like the new super cool looking ATI stock and the shorter cast boolits combination. Then I can see how it shoots as well. I am starting to hate 9mm casting and loading! It is sooooo simple with my 357's and 45 Colts.

[Balta]

I use only N320 powder to reload 9 mm,38,45lc.....3.8 gr of N320 for cast bullet is HEVY charge.you ar pushing that bullet to fast.Start from 3.2 graina! I reload cast 9 mm from 125 to 152 grain,and heviest charge is 3,4 gr N320.When i start to devolepe my charges of N320 difrence betwen exelent results and bad was only 0.1 grain.my COL is 28.8 mm...
Good luck.
It will work :)

[Balta]

I forget to mention that N320 3.8 gr charge fills 9 mm case arround 60% so if you Set shorter COL with SWC bullet eich ussualy go diper indide the case you will and you have get powder charge compresed.Thats results with overpresure and devolepts higher speed of bullet and thats speed cause the bullet fail to obture.result is keyholing and bad accuracy.....RN bullets dont go so deep inside case.

[popper]

A short piece of PVC pipe and wire strippers will sure make pulling those CB easier. Put the pipe around the ram, grab the CB with the stripper and lower the ram. Not nearly as messy as impact pulling. Can't reuse the CBs anyway, even if impact removed (they WILL be undersized). You CAN reuse the powder and resize the cases without depriming, just pull the pin from the die.

[MtGun44]

Dial caliper is only accurate to +/- 0.001". NOT good enough for this situation.

You can wish as much as you want, but you do not have enough accuracy to be
certain of what you have unless you can measure to 0.0001" reliably.

I will rarely be so adamate, but this is not negotiable. Facts are facts. Do whatever
you like and you can imagine that you are accurate beyond the capability of the instrument,
but it does not make it true.

If you measure .357 with a caliper, it can be anywhere between .356 and .358. Measure
.3572 with a micrometer and it can be anywhere between .3571 and .3573.

Bill

[dsol]

Now I am completely confused! I just loaded up some dummy rounds, my boolits measured (with a micrometer) .357 going in and after seating then pulling, .357, so I am not swaging them down any.

I could use some other ideas on why the things fly sideways at 25 yards! I used several loads of W231 between 4 grains and 4.5 grains, all did the same thing. I have a hard time beliving it could be the powder, I have used W231 for so many other loads with 9mm jacketed, 38 spl and 45 ACP rounds and never had anything like this happen.