Reamer makers

[Nobade]

I keep reading over on the Shiloh forum about the custom PP reamer designs those guys are using. I can't log in over there to ask, they never seem to get around to activating my account so I am asking here. Anybody know who is making the reamers those guys are using? I have been talking with Dave Kiff and he doesn't seem to have any awareness at all of what one of these PP chambers needs to look like. I am going to see Dave Manson at the SHOT show in 2 weeks, but while I'm here I thought I'd ask around...

[kokomokid]

I cant get on there as well. Think most of the Dan T money designs were done by manson but dont know about PP.

[Don McDowell]

Those "pp" chambers aren't much more than just copies of original chambers.
Pacific makes reamers for alot of those guys.

[Lead pot]

I use the Pacific Tool and Manson. The design of the reamers are from chamber casts of the original chambers used in the 1870's

Here is a print that you can design what ever you want.
http://www.pacifictoolandgauge.com/images/store%20catalog%20images/chamber%20reamers/Blank%20Belted%20Mag%20Reamer%20Print.pdf

http://www.pacifictoolandgauge.com/reamers2.htm#blankprts

Lp.

[Gunlaker]

I used Dan Theodore's chamber designs which are based on chamber casts of an original rifle, but with a 0.3" cylindical section at the case mouth IIRC.

I bought my two PP reamers from Dave Manson as he had Dan's drawings and Dan was more than happy to let me use them.

EDIT: I should also add that I think I get about the same accuracy out of a "standard" chamber so far. But it sure is nice to be able to just clean the brass and reuse it. No case resizing necessary.

Chris.

[Seth Hawkins]

You could PM Kirk thru Shilo's Web site, and ask him about the reamers. He usually replies within 48 hours. Or even better, just give him a call. I'm certain he'll answer all your questions. Those folks are really nice.

[montana_charlie]

I have been talking with Dave Kiff and he doesn't seem to have any awareness at all of what one of these PP chambers needs to look like.
It looks like this ...

A 45/70 chamber is cut to 2.1 inches deep, but the diameter at the neck of the case is .472" instead of .482".
Then, the leade is simply a cone which begins at the .472" diameter of the chamber neck and tapers down to bore diameter (.450").
The angle of that taper can be anywhere from 5 degrees to about 15 degrees.

If you really want an exact taper angle, I can try to research Orville Loomis' threads to find out what he uses.

CM

[Lead pot]

Charlie.

All of the original Sharps chambers I have a cast from had a taper from the chamber neck wall to the land about 3 degrees or 3.5 degree into a 1 degree 30 min. as near as the reamer maker could measure it and the case neck diameters where.021 larger then the depth of the groove diameter except the Borchardt I found had a steeper angle of about 15 to 18 degrees.
The .44-100 Rem. straight reamer I'm having made now for my new barrel has a 5 degree 1 min 30 sec. and the cast was a lot flatter then I wanted.

[Nobade]

Thanks guys, I do appreciate all the responses. It looks like this will be easier than I thought since according to the SHOT show map, Shiloh and Dave Manson are both going to be right around the corner from my booth. Looks like I'll get to spend some time talking with both of them. This could get expensive though, if I convince my wife I need to order a new Shiloh while I'm there!

Now that I am getting good results out of my C. Sharps rifle I am seeing that a dedicated PP chamber would be a good thing to play with, so as to not have to resize the cases or deal with blowby around them. Especially after seeing in the above thread how .448" wrapped boolits are working for long strings of fire! I never would have thought that would work. I was pleased I could fire 10 rounds with blowtubing and have it work so well.

[montana_charlie]

Nobade,
If you are still reading this thread ...

Dan Theodore is selling a group of reamers. At least one of them is the kind you want.
http://bpcr.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4320

CM

[Nobade]

That's the deal! Looks like I want one at just the right time. Hope he still has it. I've never talked with him that I know of, he sure seems to know his stuff.

[Yellowhouse]

I believe Kirk, Lucinda etc is headed to the Shot Show. Be a good time to talk to them.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

Nobade,

who are you repping for at the show?

See you Monday at the range?

Rich
look for the gray Jag convertible

[Nobade]

Nobade,

who are you repping for at the show?

See you Monday at the range?

Rich
look for the gray Jag convertible

I'm with Score High Gunsmithing. Table 2016, just down the aisle from Shiloh.

I won't be at the range, we'll be setting up the booth then. We're not normally part of the shoot, just the show.

[windrider919]

:bigsmyl2:

http://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-results_schedules/documents/Reamer-Design_Dan_Theodore-Jan-2007.htm


BPCR Match Reamer Design Issues

>>Reamer-Design_Dan_Theodore-

There has been much cussing and dis-cussing concerning reamer design over the years I've been designing them. The first was designed in 1980 for an XP-100 used in the pistol silhouette game. I still have that JGS wildcat beauty based on RWS 5.6 x 50 brass. Can you say 7-TCU on steroids?



I've put this reamer primer together as a result of seeing too many friends spend good money, time and effort to have a top quality BPCR built only to have it all for naught due to an inappropriate chamber for top-notch match accuracy.



Most of the hubbub was and still is focused on the chamber's front-end: case-stop step-down, freebore and leade angle. For those of you not familiar with those terms, here is a picture as one is said to be worth a 1,000 words.



Reamer/Chamber Front-end Diagram
(see original complete article/ web link)


Much has also been made of chamber-body design. But, it is trivial in my opinion, as well as from experience, compared to the chamber's front-end. For the chamber body we just want a snug brass fit that does not interfere with round loading or case extraction and at the same time does not contribute to out-of-alignment issues when a round is chambered. There is, however, one area to focus on, especially for BPCR, and that is designing the chamber for the brass to be used given the range of original chamber dimensions and reloading dies for a given cartridge, can you say, no SAMMI spec? Simple, no? So, let's get to the meat of the matter.



The design parameters concerning front-end chamber specs focus on the three above mentioned chamber sections:



Case-stop Step-down: Angle, starting diameter & ending diameter



Freebore: Length and diameter, cylindrical or tapered



Leade angle: Angle and starting diameter, ending diameter is bore diameter



Let's address each design parameter in turn and then put the whole package together by addressing what it is we should be trying to accomplish with front-end reamer design.



First, let's discuss the case-stop step-down. It is the transition from the chamber's neck diameter down to either the freebore start or leade angle start. Not too much to discuss except that some BPCR reamers out there have only a case-stop step-down at a shallow angle that acts like a leade. It starts at the chamber-neck diameter and ends at the barrel's bore diameter; not my choice for a top performing match chamber as there is way to much slop and bullet bump-up that must be squeezed-down as the bullet hits the bore/groove diameters. From research to date, it seems that style of reamer was used to "butcher" the paper patch match chambers of original rifles and have somehow come to be accepted as match chambers in this day and age. .....................

[RMulhern]

Thanks guys, I do appreciate all the responses. It looks like this will be easier than I thought since according to the SHOT show map, Shiloh and Dave Manson are both going to be right around the corner from my booth. Looks like I'll get to spend some time talking with both of them. This could get expensive though, if I convince my wife I need to order a new Shiloh while I'm there!

Now that I am getting good results out of my C. Sharps rifle I am seeing that a dedicated PP chamber would be a good thing to play with, so as to not have to resize the cases or deal with blowby around them. Especially after seeing in the above thread how .448" wrapped boolits are working for long strings of fire! I never would have thought that would work. I was pleased I could fire 10 rounds with blowtubing and have it work so well.

Nobade

Really no secret as to why or how you're able to shoot 10 rounds WITH BLOWTUBING being as how if you're wrapping your patched bullets to an overall diameter of .448"....you're backing the bullet up deeply into the case and just bumping the front of the patch touching the lands! Lots of folks use this method; loved by some....loathed by others, including myself! However if it works for you above all else...by all means use the method! In a standard chamber with 45* shoulder the problem is getting a paper/lead ring shaved off on the *** end of the bullet because the bullet is seated so deeply into the case; again if this doesn't bother you....go for it! The benefit of a 7* tapered throat is that the 45* shoulder isn't there to carve off any paper or lead and the patch isn't harmed at ignition. I have this 7* chamber in both of my 45 2 7/8 Shiloh rifles and the accuracy with PP has been greatly enhanced since Kirk did this for me up at Shiloh. I don't like compressing blackpowder to any large degree; the benefit of shooting bore diameter PP as for myself is that I only seat the bullet into the mouth of the case around .125" to .160" which gives me higher powder capacity (102-112 grs.) without having to compress the powder much over .200" using a .240" lube cookie. I use an alloy of 1-40 and a finished patched bullet diameter of .447"! I can also fire up to 40 rounds WITHOUT wiping or using a blowtube and still maintain decent accuracy! If shooting for a group or LR....I do wipe![smilie=l::coffeecom

[montana_charlie]

From research to date, it seems that style of reamer was used to "butcher" the paper patch match chambers of original rifles and have somehow come to be accepted as match chambers in this day and age. .....................
http://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-results_schedules/documents/Reamer-Design_Dan_Theodore-Jan-2007.htm
A good explanation of how he looks at chamber design, but strictly focused on shooting grease grooved bullets.

He said, "Paper Patched chamber design is another discussion for now."

Unfortunately, that 'other discussion' was never added.

CM

[RMulhern]

A good explanation of how he looks at chamber design, but strictly focused on shooting grease grooved bullets.

He said, "Paper Patched chamber design is another discussion for now."

Unfortunately, that 'other discussion' was never added.

CM

CM

Maybe it's 'fortunate'.....in that just possibly he didn't know as much as he would have wanted to convey!!:smile:;)

[Nobade]

Nobade

Really no secret as to why or how you're able to shoot 10 rounds WITH BLOWTUBING being as how if you're wrapping your patched bullets to an overall diameter of .448"....you're backing the bullet up deeply into the case and just bumping the front of the patch touching the lands! Lots of folks use this method; loved by some....loathed by others, including myself! However if it works for you above all else...by all means use the method! In a standard chamber with 45* shoulder the problem is getting a paper/lead ring shaved off on the *** end of the bullet because the bullet is seated so deeply into the case; again if this doesn't bother you....go for it! The benefit of a 7* tapered throat is that the 45* shoulder isn't there to carve off any paper or lead and the patch isn't harmed at ignition. I have this 7* chamber in both of my 45 2 7/8 Shiloh rifles and the accuracy with PP has been greatly enhanced since Kirk did this for me up at Shiloh. I don't like compressing blackpowder to any large degree; the benefit of shooting bore diameter PP as for myself is that I only seat the bullet into the mouth of the case around .125" to .160" which gives me higher powder capacity (102-112 grs.) without having to compress the powder much over .200" using a .240" lube cookie. I use an alloy of 1-40 and a finished patched bullet diameter of .447"! I can also fire up to 40 rounds WITHOUT wiping or using a blowtube and still maintain decent accuracy! If shooting for a group or LR....I do wipe![smilie=l::coffeecom

Hi,
I have tried loading the existing rifle both ways. I don't like deep seating the bullet because it uses up too much powder room and it isn't any benefit over just shooting grease groove bullets. Loading much as you do, with a bore diameter bullet (after wrapping) seated about .100" into the case with a stack of card wad, lubricated felt wads, and another card, shoots the best so far. Actually usable accuracy. But Still not all that impressive, and not as good as grease groove bullets. BUT I did get a reamer from Dan T., and when I get the time I am going to rebarrel my rifle with a barrel cut with that reamer and start working with this all over again. I suspect I will have much better luck this time!