Choosing a seater and crimp dies for 30-30

[Dannix]

I'm getting the RCBS X-die for sizing and the Lyman M-die for expanding. Now just got to choose seating and crimping.

Crimping
Can a roll crimp ruin/distort/mar a soft boolit e.g. 1:30 or 50/50 aircooled? Would I be better off purely deflaring like some of us pistol guys do; if so would a taper crimp die be more appropriate than roll crimp?


Seating
I wondered if, like the Lyman M-die, it would be possible to just get one or two die bodies and then just change the plugs. It appears Hornady offers such a beast as they have "stems" for sell at MidwayUSA. Thoughts on going that route?

[jimkim]

I use Lee dies. I replace the seating stem with the top punch used to lube/size the bullets. I also us the Lee FCD. It's a different animal than the Lee FCD for handgun cartridges.

[462]

Hornady's New Dimension seating die uses a sliding sleeve, ala Lyman's out-of-production Precision Alignment die, which keeps the boolit/bullet aligned with the case mouth. You may have to enlarge the sliding sleeve to accept a fat-for-caliber boolit, but it's easily done. Hot-melt glue or epoxy can be used to make the seating stem conform to the boolit's nose design -- again, easily done.

Lee's rifle Factory Crimp Die is the cat's meow. It uses a four-section collet to apply a crimp anywhere you like.

[Mk42gunner]

I'm getting the RCBS X-die for sizing and the Lyman M-die for expanding. Now just got to choose seating and crimping.

Crimping
Can a roll crimp ruin/distort/mar a soft boolit e.g. 1:30 or 50/50 aircooled? Would I be better off purely deflaring like some of us pistol guys do; if so would a taper crimp die be more appropriate than roll crimp?

As long as you are crimping into a groove, and don't overdo the crimp you shouldn't have any problems with a roll crimp. Just pay attention when setting the die for seating and crimping.

The thing I don't like about the Lee rifle FCD is that most of the pictures I see of brass that it has been used on doesn't look like the crimp irons out upon firing. Maybe it is just adjusted for too much crimp, but it seems that everybody does it.

I do have a FCD in .38-55, but haven't used it for real, (I don't have the rifle built yet).


Seating
I wondered if, like the Lyman M-die, it would be possible to just get one or two die bodies and then just change the plugs. It appears Hornady offers such a beast as they have "stems" for sell at MidwayUSA. Thoughts on going that route?

I don't have any problems with using an RCBS style seating die to both seat and crimp, but I really like the sliding sleeve on Hornady's New Dimension dies. If I have a choice, for close to the same money, I buy the Hornady's now.

Just like everything else: It isn't the tool, it is the craftsman that does good work.

Robert

[MtGun44]

Agree that Hornady die sets are excellent with the sleeve for seating the boolit straight.

The Lee RIFLE FCD is wonderful, love it, recommend it. Use minimal crimp with soft cast
boolits.

Bill

[williamwaco]

Agree that Hornady die sets are excellent with the sleeve for seating the boolit straight.

The Lee RIFLE FCD is wonderful, love it, recommend it. Use minimal crimp with soft cast
boolits.

Bill


Whoa. Hold on here!

I just finished readuing up on that X die. It sounds like a great idea. My .30-30 cases stretch about 0.003 each time they are resized. I would love to avoid all that trimming.

The first step in using the X die is to trim your cases 0.020.

I recently made up 100 .38-55 cases from .30-30s. They came out 0.020 short. I knew they would because the other .38-55 shooters said they would.

What nobody told me was that the Lee Factory Crimp die works off the case length and will not work at all with a case .020 shorter than "normal". A case that short will not enter the die body far enough to activate the crimping clamps. I could grind .020 off the bottom of the die but I didn't want to do that so I just retired it until I could get some "real" .38-55 cases. It works great on full length cases.

I believe the X resizing die and the Lee Factory Crimp die are not going to play nice.



.

[Dannix]

I'll likely pick up both a Lee RGB (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/729369/lee-rgb-2-die-set-30-30-winchester)setup for the seater for roll crimping then, in addition to picking up the LFCD, to ensure successful crimping until the brass length has stabilized and the LFCD may be utilized.

Am I correct in assuming all roll crimp dies essentially work equally well, kind of like how full length sizers often give the same results regardless of brand/price? Might the RCBS Cowboy Roll Crimp Seater (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/194719/rcbs-cowboy-roll-crimp-seater-die-30-30-winchester) better route to take for roll crimping than the cheap Lee seater roll crimp die due to what are presumably more generous dimensions for cast boolits?


Thanks for all the comments with regard to the Hornady New Dimension Seater. I'll plan on going that route, and I may pick up the Microjust Seating Stem (http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/394708/hornady-microjust-seating-stem) as well.

....Actually, the Hornady New Dimension Seater has a roll crimp for crimping. For some reason I thought it was a seater-only. I'm still curious if all roll crimpers essentially work as well as others though.

[Mk42gunner]

I don't honestly know, I never crimped any rifle calibers with anything other than RCBS dies (it just worked out that way, I have plenty of other makers' dies on the shelf). I have used the Lee roll crimp on .32 H&R and .45 Colt and they worked fine.

RCBS advertises the heck out of their Cowboy dies being better for lead; maybe they are but I have loaded .313" boolits with my plain RCBS .30-30 dies from the 70's with no problems.

I'm not really sold on micrometer seating stems although I have a couple of them *, it isn't that hard to accurately adjust a regular seating stem.

* I bought a set of RCBS Cowboy dies and a Lee FCD in .38-55, a Redding set in .40-65, Redding competetion seating dies for both and two Lyman taper crimp dies, .40 and .45 cal for soemthing like $100 at a local gunshow a few years ago. There was a form die for .40-65 too. Alas, the only thing I have done with them is make a few dummies; my disposable income went way down and I haven't managed to build rifles for either caliber yet.

Robert

[462]

I wonder about the necessity of a micrometer seating stem.

Regarding a roll crimp: If the cannelure is located such that the cartridge's over all length is the correct fit for your gun, it will work just fine. If not, get the Lee collet crimp die.

[williamwaco]

Regarding roll crimps on cast rifle bullets.


If you have a groove to crimp into at a seating depth that your rifle likes. Roll crimps are fine. I mean lightly rolled crimps. .38 special crimps, not .44 magnum crimps.

I shoot mostly single shots and seat my bullets out so far that the first lube groove is likely to be exposed. Way too far out to use the crimp groove.

On these loads I "crimp" with the resizing die. ( minus the decapping rod )

After seating the bullet, I run the loaded cartridge back into the resizing die just far enough to take out any flare at the case mouth and reduce the case moutn mouth diameter about .002 less than it would be with zero crimp. This results in a crimp that is invisible to the naked eye but can be seen biting very slightly into the driving band using an 8x glass. Another way to describe this is that about one fourth the thickness of the case wall is pressed into the bullet.

Most of my most accurate loads are assembled in this manner.

I can determine no significant difference in accuracy between loads crimped into the crimping groove with the roll crimp and the Lee FCD. Both are inferior to the sizing die method described above. I don't think that has anything to do with the crimp. I think it is due to the much shorter jump to the rifling.



.

[popper]

I'm about to give up on the Lee N/S die for 30-30. The pole for the Lee is .305 but I'd break the die trying to get < .310 sized cases (.310 and .311 CB drop right in - NO neck tension at all). I'll just pull the plug out of my Hornady sizer and then use the M die. The FCD is nice, just put the case in from the top and you can crimp anywhere. You can also SEE the crimp fingers tighten. The Hornady set does roll-crimp but you can get an 'almost' taper-crimp if you adjust to get a light ring at the mouth. Works fine for my .311 bullets and accuracy is good.

[hk33ka1]

I think the Lee RGB and FCD will have you covered.

I have been using the Lee Loader (hammer type) for neck sizing some rounds and I like it. All the other operations I still do on the press. I also have a Lee Collet Neck Sizing die but haven't played with it too much.

[Dannix]

I put in the order the other day.


RCBS X-Die Full Length Sizer Die
Lyman Neck Expander M Die 31 Caliber Long. Also known as the .303 expander, (A rose by any other name...), i.e. M-2 die body, 31R plug.
Hornady Custom Grade New Dimension Seater Die 30-30 Winchester, 300 Savage, 308 Winchester. As per Hornady's site, this is the 3.75" 30 cal die. They also have a 4" version; I guess for 30-06 et al? I'm not sure if one die is a fits-all 30cal option, like how the Lyman M-2 M die is vs the M-1 M die. I'm planning on having one of the members here make a custom plug for RanchDog's LFN. I skipped the Hornady micrometer add-on as I saw a negative comment with regard to it's preciseness. I would have gone with a Foster or Redding die if the micrometer was ruled of value for my purposes.
Lee Factory Crimp Die 30-30 Winchester. I'm not sure if this is cartridge specific or not, or if it is identical to other 30cal dies e.g. .308 LFCD.
Lee Universal Shellholder #3 (219 Zipper, 30-30 Winchester, 32 Winchester Special). I went this route as I saw a positive comment concerning it with regard to 7.5 Swiss, which may be applicable for me in the future. I don't like the looseness of the Lee 9mm shellholder, but that is likely purely because they sized it to accommodate 40cal/10mm as well.


I also picked up a Competition Electronics ProChrono Digital Chronograph ($20 bucks off!) and a L.E. Wilson Case Trimmer Case Trimming Kit ($70. I couldn't justify the extra $100 for the Sinclair Wilson Ultimate version).


On these loads I "crimp" with the resizing die. ( minus the decapping rod )
That, sir, is brilliant. I've thought about ordering a custom die that existed purely of a slight taper for "deflaring" / "debelling". I actually deprime before the brass ever makes it into the reloading room, so losing the deprime stem is no loss. Thanks!

[Char-Gar]

I seat 30-30 cast bullets with a Vickerman seater or a chamber type hand seater I made from the breech end of an old Winchester barrel. I have an old Lee 30 cal crimp die I picked up at a gun show 20 years ago for $3 bucks. I use it to remove the bell from all 30 cal loads and add a crimp if necessary.

[r1kk1]

I would take a chamber cast or use the Sinclair chamber gauge to see how long the chamber is:

http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/pid=32925/Product/Sinclair-Chamber-Length-Gage

I did this in a 45-70 and found that the brass didn't need to be trimmed every shot, but it finally stabilized. It seems as the chamber on this rifle was a little long. SAAMI is what reloading books state but sometimes the guy running the reamer. . .

If I have to trim frequently, I investigate if it's something I did. Pressures and shoulder angles figure into things. I shoot quite a bit and seriously haven't had to trim a lot of stuff to get it into spec unless I did something.

just an observation,

r1kk1

[Char-Gar]

I would take a chamber cast or use the Sinclair chamber gauge to see how long the chamber is:

http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/pid=32925/Product/Sinclair-Chamber-Length-Gage

I did this in a 45-70 and found that the brass didn't need to be trimmed every shot, but it finally stabilized. It seems as the chamber on this rifle was a little long. SAAMI is what reloading books state but sometimes the guy running the reamer. . .

If I have to trim frequently, I investigate if it's something I did. Pressures and shoulder angles figure into things. I shoot quite a bit and seriously haven't had to trim a lot of stuff to get it into spec unless I did something.

just an observation,

r1kk1

I was not aware of those Sinclair chamber gauges and went to the site. I did notice that it said, these guages won't work with the 30-30. I will get one in 30 caliber anyway and check the chamber length on my other 30 calibers. Could give some useful information and the guages are cheap enough.

[r1kk1]

did they give a reason why not? I opened the action on my father in laws 32, place the cartridge, closed the action, and when I opened it, removed the cartridge. It appeared to work for me in this application and for single shots.

I could see a problem cycling the round from the magazine.

just curious,

r1kk1