My new reloading video .44 WCF

[Sixgun Symphony]

I really need to get a lamp for more light. I also need to get a powder measure for blackpowder to speed things up. I should not need a drop tube for the .44 WCF cartridge, but maybe I can get in 35gr of FFG rather than just 30gr?

Anyway, here is the hyperlink. http://youtu.be/Ba_FMb71NLM

[cajun shooter]

I would first like to say that your video is not correct in that you start off by saying that black powder measures by volume. That is incorrect and has been passed down by many persons over the years since the advent of the sub type powders such as Pyrodex.
I have been loading and shooting black powder since 1970 and this subject has been discussed many times on several forums including this one.
The original 44-40 was loaded with the bullet that is today the Lyman 427098. It started as the 42798 and the lube grooves were deeper and wider with square shoulders and not the rounded style made today.
If you will take some time to study the subject you will see that the original cases were called balloon head cases and could hold the 40 grains of black powder that the cartridge received it's name from. This is also the same as the 45-70,45-90,45-110 and 32-20 which are just a few.
The modern cases like the Star Line may hold 40 grains by the use of a drop tube and then a .30 vegetable wad followed by about .31 compression with a compression die which is sold by Buffalo Arms or others.
This will allow the seating of bullets in the 200-220 range which is as heavy as want to go with the cartridge.
I'm in no way putting down on your work or your posting just trying to stop a young man from starting out wrong by misinformation.
If you take time to read your history about black powder you will find that all ammo boxes of the 1800's had the statement that said these cartridges are loaded with 40 grains of black powder. They had no statement that said these cartridges were loaded by volume.
In the early 70's when Pyrodex first arrived on the market they had to come up with the proper loading technique for the market.
Since the Pyrodex was not a real Black Powder and had a burning rate that was the same as smokeless powders bit could not be swapped with the same amount or the BP guns would have blown up. They found that if you take 70 grains of 2F and then pour the Pyrodex to the same mark that it would be a safe load. The grains were larger and took up more space so you would not have the same grain measurement. They started using the term load by volume meaning the Pyrodex.
Many Gun writers and shooters ended up swapping these terms and took it to mean that the BP was loaded by Volume just like the Pyrodex.
Go back to the 1960's to the middle 1800's when the metal cartridge case came about and show me the loading term of load by volume.
The first 22's said they had like 4 grains of powder(Not sure of exact amount).
Research this forum and the books written by Mike Venturino and others that shoot the large cartridge rifles. They have each load listed by grains in all printings. Best of luck and I'm happy to see that the younger shooters have decided to shoot the real powder. Later Cajun Shooter aka Fairshake

[Sixgun Symphony]

I have shot muzzleloading firearms for years with blackpowder and no one uses a scale. We use powdermeasures (volume).

[Sixgun Symphony]

Yes, know about drop tubes, balloon head cases, and that ".44-40" means .44 caliber and 40gr blackpowder. But from my reading, it is 40gr volume, not weight. Maybe you can show me a source that says weight?

I know that smokeless gunpowder is measured by weight. But then many smokeless powder loads have alot of empty space in the cartridge. You can't have that in blackpowder.

[Hang Fire]

I have read of old 45-70 government cartridges where boolits were pulled and the powder charge was, 70 grains of black powder by weight.

[Hang Fire]

Yes, know about drop tubes, balloon head cases, and that ".44-40" means .44 caliber and 40gr blackpowder. But from my reading, it is 40gr volume, not weight. Maybe you can show me a source that says weight?

I know that smokeless gunpowder is measured by weight. But then many smokeless powder loads have alot of empty space in the cartridge. You can't have that in blackpowder.

As the black powder subs are loaded by volume, with the comparison volume being that of black powder. So, if black powder is loaded by volume, it begs the question, the volume of what?

[John Boy]

So, if black powder is loaded by volume, it begs the question, the volume of what? Hang Fire, your question is going to get interesting. I'm going to hang back and see what the posts are going to be. On other forums, we have discussed this subject ad nauseam

[Chill Wills]

Hang Fire, your question is going to get interesting. I'm going to hang back and see what the posts are going to be. On other forums, we have discussed this subject ad nauseam

Man-O-Man, I am with you on this one! I will add to the fire this much...

"As the black powder subs are loaded by volume, with the comparison volume being that of black powder. So, if black powder is loaded by volume, it begs the question, the volume of what? "

H2O - Water
The volume BP measures for ML BP are based on the weight/volume of water. The poor ones are based on whatever the maker wanted to do.

Round Ball muzzle loader does not need a very accurate measure of powder shot to shot. A few grains one way or the other does not show up very large at 25-50 yards offhand. Loading a cartridge with Black, espesialy for target work will be by weight. The longer the range the more critical. The old sharps rifle in the buffalo fields -reloaded by campfire used scoop and some practice is needed to pull the scoop through the powder the same each time. In this way some charges vary in weight. Could not be helped.

Ok, your turn.

[Sixgun Symphony]

How about a source that BP is measured by weight?

What if the proper weight does not fill the case? Does one fudge a bit to get the proper volume so that the case is full?

[Chill Wills]

Yes. You are on the correct track. It does not matter one hoot what someone else’s load data is. The only thing to use weight for is so you can get it the same amount next time you load. Fill the case with the same weight of powder next time. Or change it as you are working on the accuracy of your load.

Here is something else to think about: when I change to a new case (25lbs) of powder, it may have a different density so to fill the case to the same point, or compression, which means I have to make changes to the weight for this new lott of powder.

[John Boy]

when I change to a new case (25lbs) of powder, it may have a different density Ah Yes, a key word,density, about the subject asked ... the volume of what? :idea:

Let me throw in a hint ... the density of the grain equivalent by weight to water based on - note the yellow wording ...
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Odds%20and%20Ends/balances-history_Page_1.png

[gandydancer]

Cajun shooter is right. listen to him. Take a powder measure set it to say 70 grains of blackpowder and then weigh it on a scale. then take the same powder measure of pyrodex and weigh it on the same scale and see what you have. 45/70 is a 45-405-70 grains of BP 44-40 200-40 grains of BP 45 colt-45 250 40 grains of BP bullet weights may not be correct Blackpowder is always used by weight. GD

[Sixgun Symphony]

Suppose I weigh that 70gr volume of blackpowder, will the same weight come out to the same volume every time? Suppose I start weighing the charges and don't get the same volume? What if it don't fill the case and leaves airspace in the case?

[gandydancer]

that's why you use wads & grease cookies in cartridge firearms. Hey we all are just trying to help. do what ever floats your boat. GD

[Chill Wills]

Suppose I weigh that 70gr volume of blackpowder, will the same weight come out to the same volume every time? Suppose I start weighing the charges and don't get the same volume? What if it don't fill the case and leaves airspace in the case?

Sixgun Symphony,
You have some really good questions. These would be many of the same questions that we all have when we start to get into some area of interest beyond the basics, in this case early cartridge development along with reloading using the original powder. It means you are thinking. That is good.

We are not trying to argue with you but support you and I would suggest that the fun you will have researching and reading the wealth of written information about this era in firearms will keep you occupied and interested for the rest of your life. It has for me anyway.

There are MANY myths and wife’s tails, often repeated in this realm. I do not (or try not) to challenge them here on this forum. I do some times I guess but this is a place to read and have fun and I am not the keeper of the faith but just try to add my nickel’s worth here and there. For those that get something out of what I offer – great – for those that do not – great too. However, I am not short on opinions nor experience on this subject. And then some things I don’t have a clue about. That is what keeps me interested.

Have fun with your quest! Keep posting!

[cajun shooter]

Let me first say that I'm going to make this last point and then you are on your own.
First I started out with BP in 1970 while working in a gun store that stocked it and sold BP guns.
The owner became my mentor and took me out for my first experience with this wonderful product.
We shot a T/C 50 caliber Hawken rifle, and a 1858 and 1860 replica revolvers that day. I understood why many of the frontiersman were known to carry several guns and not just one like today.
There is no way to load a percussion revolver if a bad guy is just feet away!!
I ended up buying a set of 1858 revolvers and a 50 Caliber T/C Hawken.
The manual for the guns had a recommended charge for that gun. Every load listed was given in "GRAINS".
The powder measures that we were able to buy at that time came in two forms. One was just one very long brass tube that screwed into the measure or several spouts that were precut to deliver different loads of a certain BP in "GRAINS".
If you purchase a powder measure from T/C today it is marked in "GRAINS"
If you purchase a T/C rifle it will have loads listed for all the calibers and they are in "GRAINS".
You ask that I show you where it states that the ammo of old was loaded this way.
If you look back at your postings, it was only a short time ago that you posted a question about the 44-40 round and it's loading.
I answered that question for you and now you dispute what I'm telling you about that very cartridge.
I will say that if you are intent on posting about any subject that it is best that you do your own research.
I'm sure that you have only the interest of doing things correctly and it would do you no good for others to do your research.
If you want to be a person who has knowledge about the different uses of BP then they have tons of written material to go over. Some of it bears the best information that is around and some of it bears nothing but the continued passing of once heard old myths that should not be continued.
That is why I printed my first posting and this one also.
I shoot nothing but 100% BP and have some good mentors to thank for my current knowledge and the reading of all that material that I referred you to.
I wish you the best and hope that you become a leading and TRUE Follower of the BP shooters that enjoy this wonderful sport. Take Care David

[Sixgun Symphony]

That brass tube says grains, but it is a volume measure like the one I used in the video. It's not a beam scale.

Your point that BP must be weighed goes against everything I read and against all the advise on the subject that I got when I started out. So it's reasonable to ask for a source.

[Chill Wills]

[QUOTE=Sixgun Symphony;1535792]That brass tube says grains, but it is a volume measure like the one I used in the video. It's not a beam scale.

That brass tube says grains
Yes, grains of water, which does not vary. The density of black powder varies all over the place. Water was used a standard for a volume equivalent, nothing more. With round ball muzzle loaders nothing more is needed most of the time. You can load your 44-40 that way too and the rifle will go bang. That is not the point. In long range shooting weight becomes more critical.

I hope this helps.

[Sixgun Symphony]

[QUOTE=Sixgun Symphony;1535792]That brass tube says grains, but it is a volume measure like the one I used in the video. It's not a beam scale.

That brass tube says grains
Yes, grains of water, which does not vary. The density of black powder varies all over the place. Water was used a standard for a volume equivalent, nothing more. With round ball muzzle loaders nothing more is needed most of the time. You can load your 44-40 that way too and the rifle will go bang. That is not the point. In long range shooting weight becomes more critical.

I hope this helps.

Ok, that explains it in a way that I can understand. Thanks for your patience.

[Sixgun Symphony]

that's why you use wads & grease cookies in cartridge firearms. Hey we all are just trying to help. do what ever floats your boat. GD

I want to know if there is a way to get uniform volume when measuring by weight to make sure that works out.

[MBTcustom]

Volume will be uniform within a certain lot of powder. When you change lots, you must reassess the volume. If you get lucky, it will be close but you will have to tailor your load to the powder every time.
By the way, I too was taught to weigh BP charges. I was told to use a powder measure to get the first charge, and weigh it, from that point forward all charges were weighed on a balance beam scale to insure consistency. The volumes were consistent too, extremely so. You just cant depend on a volume measure to give precise charge to charge accuracy.
I was taught how to load them but never got around to actually using that knowledge. I was told the same thing that cajun shooter is telling you and it makes sense when you think about it.
By the way, I liked your video very clean, sharp equipment and work area.
Take care!

[Wayne Smith]

This is part of a post on Chuckhawks.com by Randy Wakeman

Gun manufacturers and powder sellers have been generally ignorant, lackadaisical, and sloppy about referring to “volumetric grains” and volumetric equivalents of blackpowder and blackpowder synthetic replica powders for decades. It is not what you might think, and not only not are there no “universal standards” for volumetric grains, there never were. Yet, some manufacturers dodder on, suggesting that blackpowder is supposed to be measured by volume, or was designed to be. This is absolute rubbish.

You won’t find any definition of a blackpowder volumetric grain from the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), or any other source that I know of. The reason is simple; there is none. Blackpowder has always been measured by weight, not by volume; just like breakfast cereal. You buy blackpowder by the pound, and that is weight, not a “volumetric pound.”

The "grain" has always been a measure of weight, not volume.

[Tracy]

As someone else pointed out, the whole "volume" thing in BP started when Pyrodex was introduced. Pyrodex was designed to give ballistics equal to black powder when loaded with the same volumetric measure, since nobody weighed their charges in the field. Because Pyrodex doesn't weigh the same as BP, a substitution based on weight doesn't work.

A secondary concern is that the projectile should always be in contact with the powder in BP loading. No problem with a muzzleloader, but in a cartridge where the bullet has a uniform seating depth, the powder should be of a proper volume to achieve 100% load density. If the powder you have been using gives 100% density in your .45 Colt with 37 grains of powder and a new batch of powder weighs 41 grains at 100% density, you should still use 100% density. Reducing your load to 37 grains of the new powder will probably raise pressure.

I've been shooting BP for 35 years, and this has worked for me so far.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Thing about "always measured by weight".

When did any frontiersman or any shooter for that matter carry a beam scale in his possibles bag to weigh out his loads for his front stuffer? For that matter, did the bufallo hunters keep a beam scale in their saddlebags with the common nutcracker type reloader? I really doubt it.

I think you are overstating your case. I can see target shooters weighing BP loads to get utmost accuracy from his cartridges, but thats about it.

[Springfield]

All powders we use for our firearms have a volume AND a weight. Find a way to consistantly come up with the same all the time and you are good to go. I personally use a volume dispenser for all my SMOKELESS rifle and pistol rounds. It's called my Dillon powder measure. It doesn't weigh anything, just dumps a predetermined volume, which I adjust to fit the cartridge. Since my measure doesn't have any way to return to previous amounts I WEIGH the powder and adjust the measure until it is correct. I adjust the volume by checking the weight. I do the same with BP except it is backwards. I determine the amount of volume the fills the case properly for the bullet being used. I could weigh it if I felt like it but that info is of no use to me unless I want to "get close" faster than trial and error. If I was into shooting that needed more accuracy/consistancy I probably would weigh it. I did not know that the BP powder measures were calibrated to grains of water, that makes a lot of sense. Learn somethin' every day. Also, anybody here ever load with a LEE Loader? Used a powder scoop, didn't you? No scale in sight. Use the chart and scoop. Sounds like "volume equivalent" to me. But what do I know, I use the Dillon 550 for BP also, plastic powder measure and all.

[UNIQUEDOT]

When did any frontiersman or any shooter for that matter carry a beam scale in his possibles bag to weigh out his loads for his front stuffer?

They didn't because blackpowder has always been measured by volume AFTER THE WEIGHT WAS DETERMINED. It was loaded by volume in the ammunition factories in the 1800's AFTER THE WEIGHT WAS DETERMINED BY VOLUME. Quite simply some people just don't understand what "measured by volume" means.

[cajun shooter]

Those Buffalo Hunters and frontiersman used a scale to make up all the little dippers they carried into the field.
You seem to be so stuck on what you are saying that you flat refuse to do your own research on this matter.
If you will take the time (I doubt it though) to read the current Cabela's Shooting Catalog you will find some information that may open your eyes. If you want to learn that is.
I explained this to you in my first posting but you just ignored what I said. In the 70's when we purchased a powder flask it came with one over sized in length brass tube.
You could then measure what load worked in your rifle and cut it to that length.
Back to the Cabela's catalog. Look at page 155 in "THE BLACKPOWDER SECTION". At the bottom of the page and read about the brass item being sold for the shooting of BP firearms.The picture shows several different sizes of brass tubes. The article says it all.
When the buffalo hunters purchased a new gun in town they were helped by the town's gunsmith who had scales to set the powder measure for them.
You can't load any round that is intended for target or hunting that requires top accuracy without weighing the charge.
Why not go to a muzzleloading competition as you say you are only interested in that type of BP shooting. Watch as each competitor loads his rifle and tell me what you see on the loading bench.
Write a letter to the National muzzle loaders association and ask them if they just load by volume to determine the correct load to use. Good Day

[Wayne Smith]

Thing about "always measured by weight".

When did any frontiersman or any shooter for that matter carry a beam scale in his possibles bag to weigh out his loads for his front stuffer? For that matter, did the bufallo hunters keep a beam scale in their saddlebags with the common nutcracker type reloader? I really doubt it.

I think you are overstating your case. I can see target shooters weighing BP loads to get utmost accuracy from his cartridges, but thats about it.

True, at that point powder was measured by volume - firing over snow and reducing the load until all the powder was burned, or covering the ball with powder in the hand to determine the load. The point is that at that point in history it was experimental and specific to that rifle.

Prior to weight measure it was measured by volume, that measure was drams, not grains.

[UNIQUEDOT]

Those Buffalo Hunters and frontiersman used a scale to make up all the little dippers they carried into the field.
You seem to be so stuck on what you are saying that you flat refuse to do your own research on this matter.
If you will take the time (I doubt it though) to read the current Cabela's Shooting Catalog you will find some information that may open your eyes. If you want to learn that is.
I explained this to you in my first posting but you just ignored what I said. In the 70's when we purchased a powder flask it came with one over sized in length brass tube.
You could then measure what load worked in your rifle and cut it to that length.
Back to the Cabela's catalog. Look at page 155 in "THE BLACKPOWDER SECTION". At the bottom of the page and read about the brass item being sold for the shooting of BP firearms.The picture shows several different sizes of brass tubes. The article says it all.
When the buffalo hunters purchased a new gun in town they were helped by the town's gunsmith who had scales to set the powder measure for them.
You can't load any round that is intended for target or hunting that requires top accuracy without weighing the charge.
Why not go to a muzzleloading competition as you say you are only interested in that type of BP shooting. Watch as each competitor loads his rifle and tell me what you see on the loading bench.
Write a letter to the National muzzle loaders association and ask them if they just load by volume to determine the correct load to use. Good Day


I used to have a large collection of books on these subjects and have read a good deal on the subject in the past. Cabelas is not a reliable source to get info from as i recall many years ago they sold guns as replicas of x when they were replicas of y and others were said to be replicas when they replicated nothing from the past and they have reported wrongful information. BTW are they still calling their revolvers replicas?

If some one is given advice to contact a company on this subject it should be to contact dixie gunworks. From the books i have read over the years (some reprints from the mid 1800's) the gunmaker would come up with a weighed load for each gun he built for the purchaser and then he would construct a volume measure for that amount.

The trading companies that sold different grades of gunpowder also had scales and the purchaser could have them weigh a charge from a certain can of powder (the cans were sheet lead and could be used for bullets when empty) from his volume measure, but after that it was always measured by volume...even in the ammunition factories when cartridges came to be.

Sam Fadala is stated to have written more on the subject of blackpowder than anyone living or dead and i do not recall how many pounds of black he said he burned every year, but it was alot! and at least in muzzleloaders several grains one way or another did not make one bit of difference on paper and I'm not talking about diminishing returns. I'm talking about accuracy. I know that cartridges are more easily affected though, but a properly set up volume measure and properly used will yield the same accuracy as weighing every single charge when it comes to blackpowder.

[UNIQUEDOT]

True, at that point powder was measured by volume - firing over snow and reducing the load until all the powder was burned, or covering the ball with powder in the hand to determine the load. The point is that at that point in history it was experimental and specific to that rifle.

Prior to weight measure it was measured by volume, that measure was drams, not grains.

These were nothing more than old wives tales and was simply proven by the fact that the only way to get a workable charge by covering the ball in the palm with bp was if the caliber of the ball was in a certain diameter. Firing over snow may have helped in coming up with a load to help determine diminishing returns though. There is also the tale about the Kentucky rifle and the proper load was reached when it made the cracking sound.

It was actually drachms and when termed drams was in fact used to determine the velocity of a load of shot with a certain GRAIN weight of powder. correct? I'm a bit rusty on this one. :mrgreen:

[cajun shooter]

Uniquedot, First I did not receive my information from Cabela's. If you read all my postings you will find that I read history books and studied the making of Black Powders. I'm 64 and first started with BP in 1970 while employed in a gun store that sold the powder and guns to fire it in. I still have my T/C 50 caliber Hawken and the pictures are from the manual that came with it I was also working when the factory brought in the first can of pyrodex and gave use the instructions on how to use it. He advised that we hand out the pamphlets that came with each can explaining that the powder was so much more powerful than BP that you could not swap out the loading information. He stated that they had found that if you use the same measure in grains that the T/Cmeasure was marked in and load by volume that would be the correct loading. It was even printed in the T/C manual at that time. My T/C measure is marked in grains from 50 to about 100 or so. If you need to see that for further proof That can be furnished. There is a man by the name of Bill Knight that was one of my mentors in the study of BP. He is in his 70's now and has amassed so much info on the study of BP that if fills a DVD. If you have never heard of him he is on the same level as Elmer Keith and Skeeter Skeleton are to the cartridge world.Later Davidhttp://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_59204f0d79fe405df.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=3400)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_59204f0d7a4f0b602.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=3401)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_59204f0d798cdf58b.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=3399)

[cajun shooter]

To post further information about your posting on weight information. The word dram was the way that the English used to describe the power of a shotgun shell. It has lasted until this time period.
When I was young and sent to the store to purchase Shotgun shells for hunting, I was told to buy the 3 1/2 Dram ones.
Dram is a apothecaries weight that is equal to 60 grains, 3.89 grams or 1/8th of a ounce.
When used as a avoirdupois measure it is equal to 27.34 grains, 1.77 grams or 1/16th of a ounce.
Although most ammo makers of today have done away with the placing of the Dram equivalent on the boxes, I still have a box of Remington buckshot that reads 4 dram eq.

[Wayne Smith]

To post further information about your posting on weight information. The word dram was the way that the English used to describe the power of a shotgun shell. It has lasted until this time period.
When I was young and sent to the store to purchase Shotgun shells for hunting, I was told to buy the 3 1/2 Dram ones.
Dram is a apothecaries weight that is equal to 60 grains, 3.89 grams or 1/8th of a ounce.
When used as a avoirdupois measure it is equal to 27.34 grains, 1.77 grams or 1/16th of a ounce.
Although most ammo makers of today have done away with the placing of the Dram equivalent on the boxes, I still have a box of Remington buckshot that reads 4 dram eq.

I'm gonna have to go back and re-read W. W. Greener. I probably miss-remembered from reading him about five years ago.

[UNIQUEDOT]

To post further information about your posting on weight information. The word dram was the way that the English used to describe the power of a shotgun shell. It has lasted until this time period.
When I was young and sent to the store to purchase Shotgun shells for hunting, I was told to buy the 3 1/2 Dram ones.


I know what dram is... for instance 12 ga. 1 1/4 oz 3 1/4 dram = a 12 gauge shell with 1 1/4 ounce of shot at a velocity = to that achieved with 89 grains weight of blackpowder 1220 fps. 3 1/4 might actually be the equivalent of 70 or 75 grains weight with 1 1/4 oz @ 1220fps. As i said i am rusty on the subject. To be clearer if i purchased a box of smokeless shotshells that info would let me determine the velocity as being the equal of a certain grain weight charge of blackpowder with the weight of shot i had chosen.

What i was saying about drams is was that it was actually drachms that the English used and we or some one else (don't recall) used drams which is the equivalent of a certain grain weight (60?) anyway we were still using this and probably still are to determine what the velocity of our shotshells equal with a certain grain weight charge of blackpowder when we changed over to smokeless. I have not purchased factory shells in years.


The warning on pyrodex containers and every other substitute in the past few years are there because of the fear that someone would weigh their charges whereas the powders were designed to be thrown by volume using the same volume equivalent that one would use with the equivalent grade of blackpowder.

If i have misunderstood anything in your posts, you are correct... i have not read through them all and i apologize for that.

[John Boy]

Sixgun, you will never graduate The BPCR Reloading Class asking one question at a time on a forum. And based on the basic questions your asking, I strongly believe your reference library of black powder reloading text books has empty shelves

This being said - read this and then study it - Introduction to Black Powder Cartridge Rifle Loading By Chuck Raithel
http://www.wahsatchdesperadoes.com/Intro_to_BPCR_Loading.pdf

Plus, Brain Print this ... black powder is a weak powder unlike smoke needing to weigh and charge to 1/10 of a grain. You will see no abnormal pressure or velocity when there is a 1/2 gr difference among powder charges

[John Boy]

3 1/4 might actually be the equivalent of 70 or 75 grains weight with
1 1/4 oz @ 1220fps. UNIQUEDOT, Will Never Be or Happen! :roll:
70 or 75 grs of powder is substantially less than 3 drams equivalent in a 12ga 2 3/4" hull
A 92 grs avoirdupois of FFFg with 1 1/4 shot charge will only have a velocity in the neighborhood of 1050 fps. And the highest velocity of any of the gauges would be a 24 ga - 2 1/2" with 58gr FFF & 3/4 oz shot at 1120 fps

[UNIQUEDOT]

You will see no abnormal pressure or velocity when there is a 1/2 gr difference among powder charges

Of course not, but using .5 grains is totally meaningless when discussing blackpowder anyway. There would be no difference in 1 or 3 grains either. All you have to do is look at the composition of BP and how the chemicals are combined to realize that. The fact that something like 70% of the ejecta is burned and unburned powder should be an eye opener for most bp shooters.

[UNIQUEDOT]

UNIQUEDOT, Will Never Be or Happen! :roll:
70 or 75 grs of powder is substantially less than 3 drams equivalent in a 12ga 2 3/4" hull
A 92 grs avoirdupois of FFFg with 1 1/4 shot charge will only have a velocity in the neighborhood of 1050 fps. And the highest velocity of any of the gauges would be a 24 ga - 2 1/2" with 58gr FFF & 3/4 oz shot at 1120 fps

As i said i am rusty on the subject and figures as they are pretty much meaningless to me now. I do know many of the 10, 11, 12, and 13, ga. loads i used in front stuffers were average loads over 1200 fps using card and cushion wads. I do have a chart here somewhere showing the exact dr eq's vs weights and standards of velocity...again it's all meaningless to me now that i have sold off decades of collecting these things and the desire went with them.

[John Boy]

There would be no difference in 1 or 3 grains either. All you have to do is look at the composition of BP and how the chemicals are combined to realize that. The fact that something like 70% of the ejecta is burned and unburned powder should be an eye opener for most bp shooters.
UNIQUEDOT, you are just having a terrible morning with your facts![smilie=b:
From my range loading tables, shooting the same 45-70 Sharps at 1000 yds:
457132 - 536gr: 68gr of Goex FFFg Sifted = 166MOA
457132 - 536gr: 70gr of Goex FFFg Sifted = 164 MOA
Shot the same day with the same temperature - humidity and wind conditions

Now, since you post that a 1 or 3gr difference would be no difference, tell me why a 2gr decrease of the same powder & bullet necessitated that I had to have 2 MOA difference (that's 20" @ 1000yds) to be on target?

Believe you better get to the range and start shooting some long distance targets and I don't mean 100yds (with your front stuffers) before you come up with statements such as you did

And if you really want to know how much foul remains in the bore shooting black powder, read this as an example ... http://www.schuetzenpowder.com/forum/index.php?topic=108.0

[UNIQUEDOT]

Believe you better get to the range and start shooting some long distance targets and I don't mean 100yds (with your front stuffers) before you come up with statements such as you did

Believe me i tested enough over the years. All powder is not created equal either. With some powder i could reach D R before the velocity could be matched with another powder. One example was with certain lots of elephant in comparison with goex. I don't follow a single writers opinions or that of a manufacturer although i do pick favorites, and as i said have no further interest so I'll let some one else click the link. I do know this... anyone that believes the writers of old are way off base when it comes to this subject. Some not so old stuff is misleading as well as can be seen in Lyman's first edition BPH.

As i said am rusty on the subject and no longer use dram equivalents as guides for shotshells either. The last time i did comparisons was with 3 3/4 dram loads with 1 1/4 oz. of shot @ 1330 fps and that's if I'm even remembering correctly on this one. I have even read older articles by "experts" that believed after D R was reached there was no danger of an overcharge since it would all be blown out the muzzle unburned. Wasn't it the U.S. navy that proved in testing that BP could reach pressure over 100,000 psi?

Anywhoo if i were the op i would get my hands on every thing i could find on the subject from the 1800's to date and then finish up with my own testing to see what affects my shooting with each lot of my powder before i followed all the internet experts. Checking my personal library i have sold off most of my literature and my notes went with my collection and my memory is not so great, but there is plenty of good info, knowledge, and testing equipment out there.


457132 - 536gr: 68gr of Goex FFFg Sifted = 166MOA
457132 - 536gr: 70gr of Goex FFFg Sifted = 164 MOA

I take it you not only weighed your powder in these tests, but also your bullets and cases?



And if you really want to know how much foul remains in the bore shooting black powder, read this as an example ... http://www.schuetzenpowder.com/forum...hp?topic=108.0

Ejecta is not bore fouling... only a small amount is. Perhaps you would do good to study the subject.

[John Boy]

Wasn't it the U.S. navy that proved in testing that BP could reach pressure over 100,000 psi? Yes, there was a British Royal Society treatise by England's Able and Nobel that were able to generate pressures of over 100,000 psi and follow up by the US Navy in 1874 & 1878. But your statement is totally misleading. These pressures were measured shooting 6" artillery rounds - not BPCR rounds! Another bad [smilie=b: statement!

I take it you not only weighed your powder in these tests, but also your bullets and cases?
Yes, powder and bullets. Don't weigh cases but the are nearly all out of the same 500 case lot from Starline , Lot 7-025 J7 P7-31. PS, don't throw around case weights that nearly all top ranked long range smokeless shooters do. I don't know of one BPCR top ranked national & regional shooters that weigh their cases within a 2 gr variance. And you were a muzzle loader shooter not a BPCR shooter :veryconfu


Ejecta is not bore fouling... only a small amount is. Perhaps you would do good to study the subject. Maybe you should find your front stuffer notes or quit posting non complete and wrong statements about black powder subjects. Yes 'ejecta is not bore fouling... only a small amount is.' The foul test WAS the small amount. Maybe you should re-read the test.
BTW, explain to the readers in strict internal ballistic words what you mean by 'ejecta', if you can!

My friend, I have studied more about original gunpowder than most folks that shoot it. If you have any factual tests/facts that refute what I have posted - post yours. If not stop trying to be a BP 'expert' confusing readers by posting wrong and and incomplete statements because you don't have true facts - evidenced by a string of them in one day :groner: