Lee 45 pistol bullet shape

[roysha]

Can someone tell me if the Lee 45 TL RN with the 2R nose has a shoulder or if it is straight from the ogive to the diameter like the regular lube groove 1R nose bullet?

The reason I ask is that I have finished my Mauser conversion except for a couple minor things but it absolutely refuses to reliably feed anything but round nose! The slightest bit of a square edge and it hangs up on the chamber mouth. I have lightly beveled and polished the mouth as much as I feel comfortable with, so that is not an option and shooting jacketed is not an option because that destroys the whole concept of this gun for me.

Either bullet would work but I like the more slender RN profile of the TL 2R nose bullet and I think it would feed marginally better than the 1R nose profile.

The TC bullet feeds into the chamber well enough but has a tendency to hang up on the fed ramp once in a while, not often, but often enough to be a pain.

[rsrocket1]

My old Thompson AO 1911 reliably feeds RN lead, plated or jacketed and chokes every once in a while on SWC lead and plated rounds no matter where I seat them.

I picked up the Lee TL-452-230-TC and they feed perfectly 100%. This is with the bullet seated right to edge of the cone. These shoot fine unsized, but I'm picking up a Lee .452 sizing die to see if I can seat them higher. Right now the OAL is 1.170" and I'd like to see if I can get the vertical part exposed a little more to be able to get a higher velocity without maxing out in pressure. The widest part of the boolit is right at that last lip just before it transitions to the cone. Yes that is a light taper crimp on the case. Something I've never done with commercial bullets, but definitely makes the "plunk" test in the barrel a lot more certain.

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj96/rsrocket1/LEE45ACP_loaded.jpg

P.S.
You can see from the Lee diagram the 2R does have a shoulder. The 1R does not.

http://leeprecision.com/xcart/Bullet-Mold-6-Cavity/

[Bullwolf]

Here are some pics of the Lee TL452-230-2R. Hopefully they zoom in close enough to answer your question.


- Bullwolf


(click on the image for a closer view)

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_187904f01765873e2c.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=3270)

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_187904f017263cae10.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=3267)

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_187904f01728b0d8c0.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=3269)

[zuke]

My old Thompson AO 1911 reliably feeds RN lead, plated or jacketed and chokes every once in a while on SWC lead and plated rounds no matter where I seat them.

I picked up the Lee TL-452-230-TC and they feed perfectly 100%. This is with the bullet seated right to edge of the cone. These shoot fine unsized, but I'm picking up a Lee .452 sizing die to see if I can seat them higher. Right now the OAL is 1.170" and I'd like to see if I can get the vertical part exposed a little more to be able to get a higher velocity without maxing out in pressure. The widest part of the boolit is right at that last lip just before it transitions to the cone. Yes that is a light taper crimp on the case. Something I've never done with commercial bullets, but definitely makes the "plunk" test in the barrel a lot more certain.

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj96/rsrocket1/LEE45ACP_loaded.jpg

P.S.
You can see from the Lee diagram the 2R does have a shoulder. The 1R does not.

http://leeprecision.com/xcart/Bullet-Mold-6-Cavity/


I use that exact same boolit in my 45 Win Mag,unsized and lubed with the LEE/Johnstons paste wax/oil mix.
No leading in over 1000 rds so far.
I seat mine out just a touch futher and crimp a little more so there's no edge's to catch on anything in my M-1 Carbine.

[geargnasher]

To answer the question, YES they do have a pretty significant step at the base of the nose to the first driving band. This aids greatly in clearing the slide lock lever in 1911-style pistols, which can be picky about the blunt, two-groove round-nosed Lee design.

What you need is a Lyman 452374. It's basically a multi-radius ogive copy of military Ball ammo and has been a standard for generations. There is no step. Lee doesn't make a decent .45 auto boolit in my book.

Gear

[paul edward]

What kind of Mauser?

[Recluse]

Lee doesn't make a decent .45 auto boolit in my book.

Gear

I'm probably the only guy on this entire forum that not only likes their (Lee) 200SWC, but loves it.

That boolit has outperformed every other SWC (185gr/200gr class) I've ever cast, loaded and shot--so much so that I sold my other two SWC molds several years ago.

The TL230RN? Eh, so-so. I tumble-lube it and push it with a low charge (4.3) or W231 and get one-ragged hole, but the boolit doesn't give me a tingling feeling running up my leg. Will probably buy that Lyman (ugh) mold at some point in the near future.

:coffee:

[roysha]

I guess I should have made myself a little clearer in regard to the gun in question. This is the Rhineland 45 ACP conversion for the 98 Mauser.

Indeed, I had looked at the Lyman 452374 but was hoping not to have to invest $100 or so for experimental purposes. However from what you say, it may be exactly what I'm looking for.

I use the TC (non-TL) in my SIG and it has run 100% reliable since I throated the barrel. Very accurate and drops 95% of the brass in a 3 foot circle so it is very easy to recover.

[Sonnypie]

Blaming the boolit for a mechanical failure.
I have an original Colt 45 ACP Government Model. Actually 996 of 1000 made in 1929.
I should clarify that I did have to replace the extractor last summer. Other than that, it is completely original.
It was fed a diet of FMJ Military Ball ammo for most of it's life. Now it is fed two Lee RNCB bullets in reloaded 1931/2 brass, and range pick-ups.
One is: 452-228-1R (http://leeprecision.com/xcart/6-CAVITY-452-228-1R.html) http://leeprecision.com/xcart/images/P/p-25.jpg The other is: TL452-230-2R (http://leeprecision.com/xcart/MOLD-DC-TL452-230-2R.html) http://leeprecision.com/xcart/images/P/p-68.jpg

I modified the TL mold before it ever saw hot lead to make HP rounds. The 2-groove is as original in a 6-banger mold.
I have had Zero failures to feed from either of these boolits.
Blaming the FTF on that smidgen of a lip on the lead is, in my book, goosing butterfly's.
Realize that your brass casing actually protrudes more than that lip.
Lookie here: http://home.earthlink.net/~pie/Sonny%27s/P8300220.JPG

That slight protrusion is flush when properly seated to Ball ammo (Factory) depth.
And the head-space is set by the casing's mouth in the chamber.
Search for the young man who built a 45 for his Marine Dad to commemorate his retirement. There is some Good Meat in the stew of that post concerning your clips and FTF.
He was getting flustered with his build, until his buddy handed him the clip from his 45... :shock: Problem solved!
Also the ramp might need a bit of polishing... But the clip is one of the first things to create misfeeds.

Think. Before you go goosing butterfly's while a bear lurks nearby. ;)

Three little bears...

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa382/Sonnypie/P1060202.jpg

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa382/Sonnypie/P1060203.jpg

(See that middle one? See what's wrong about it? It has a very slight roll crimp. That's a No-No with the ACP. But it will get shot out one of these range trips... :roll: )

And if you would like, I can send you some cast boolits to load and try for yourself, before you go buying molds and stuff. ;)
And that offer isn't butterfly balls. :drinks:

[geargnasher]

Roysha: There's a thread in the special projects forum about some of these conversions, might be some info on helping the feeding issue, but I haven't read the whole thread. It seems that these conversions rely on the extractor and rim retainer to grab and hold the cartridge against the bolt face so it can poke into the chamber, but if the rim is too thin the cartridge can droop and hit the barrel face. Have you found any differences in function with different brands of brass?

Sonnypie: I've been roll-crimping my .45 ACP for years with a chopped-off RCBS .45 Colt crimp die, I don't see what the problem is. I do "roll crimp" less than in your pic, but I found my taper crimp die would swage the boolit down under the brass before it removed the bellmouth completely (which is all I want it to do), and the roll crimp die will do that without damaging the boolit. I don't over-bell, I guess my taper-crimp die sucks.

Recluse: Go the Accurate Molds website and look in their catalog for "45-230L", that's my favorite .45 ACP design ever. I based it on the Lee TL452-230-2R, but got rid of the bevel base and added two real lube grooves spaced correctly for Lyman sizer holes so that if you line the center driving band up with the center of the lube holes in the die, it lubes both grooves at once and doesn't leak lube under the base. The only downside is it uses more lead than a 200-grainer. I don't mind that Lee SWC, and neither do my guns as long as I use quality magazines, but my brass Mihec H&G 68 clone is SOOOO much nicer to use than the Lee.

Gear

[Sonnypie]

Hi Ya Gear,
Yep. I got chastised for roll-crimping my 45's. Merely setting the die too tight did that.
That berating led to some research. And in checking my original loads, I changed to my RCBS dies, and adjusted my die to achieve the original factory shape.
Either way, I still had no FTF of any of my rounds.

Different story:
I did have trouble with my Browning High Power for a little while. I was loading TC (Truncated cone) cast boolits in it.
With it, a little hotter load fixed the FTF. If I remember Correctly (IIRC), I got up to a 5.0g load in it, but it was getting brutal on the wrist, slamming the action back.
I settled back to a 4.6g powder charge, and stayed there for the duration of the 1600 boolits I was given by a friend.
I do not recall the eggzackt powder though.:sad:
And as a side note, Dad got me 6 aftermarket magazines for that pistola~.
None of them ever fed right. Fact.

Epilog:
That was sure a nice gun! Gone now. Gave it to my youngest Son, who used it to defend his Family. Since it stopped 2 of the 3 home invasion robbers (as in dead), the investigators confiscated it. Ruled as self-defence.
Probably in a cops collection now. :roll:

Real Happiness:
Anyhow, I'm back to making factory copy-cat 45's, with taper crimp. 5.5g of W231 gives me a load that bangs the gong all day long.
The Grand Daughter even liked it. Surprised me! The Grand Son, eh, not so much.
One shot and he decided it was, ahem, a tad too lively for him. :lol: I wish I had got the look on his face! :lol:

14.... & 10 years old.
http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa382/Sonnypie/PA070262.jpg http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa382/Sonnypie/PA070263.jpg

Please say HI to the Mrs.'s for me. [smilie=s:

[williamwaco]

I'm probably the only guy on this entire forum that not only likes their (Lee) 200SWC, but loves it.

That boolit has outperformed every other SWC (185gr/200gr class) I've ever cast, loaded and shot--so much so that I sold my other two SWC molds several years ago.

The TL230RN? Eh, so-so. I tumble-lube it and push it with a low charge (4.3) or W231 and get one-ragged hole, but the boolit doesn't give me a tingling feeling running up my leg. Will probably buy that Lyman (ugh) mold at some point in the near future.

:coffee:

NOPE. Here is one more.

[roysha]

Well, I'm not sure what feeding a auto pistol has to do with my situation but if it works for you, great.

Gearnasher: Indeed I have been following the threads in regard to the conversion on the special projects forum. As to the different brands of cases, that does not seem to make nearly, if any, the difference compared to the magazines. I have a Wilson that feeds very nicely and an OEM Colt mag that is only about 50% reliable. When comparing the feed lips, one has a shorter "support" area and oddly enough, is the one that works the best.

The other thing is the clearance between the extractor and the bolt face, because as you stated, the round needs to be aligned nearly perfectly to feed straight in since it does not ramp directly into the chamber. The tighter the case is held the better the alignment. Therefore, the reasoning behind the reliable feeding of ammo for the 1911 platform, or any other auto loading pistol for that matter, is not fully applicable in this instance. The least misalignment and a bit of a shoulder and you have a hang up. At least I do. I suppose there are some for whom there is never a problem, unfortunately I am not one of those so chosen.

[geargnasher]

Let me suggest something, not having one of these but somewhat getting the idea of your issue: If possible, seat your boolits so they engrave the rifling with reasonable firmness, and roll-crimp the case mouth. Use the Lee round nose and roll the case mouth into the side of the boolit slightly, but use the overall length to control headspace rather than the extractor or case mouth so you can roll-crimp it for easier chambering. The only hickey would be if your overall length to headspace is too long for the magazines, but the fat, short, round nose on the Lee boolit will give you the best shot at achieving that.

Unless there is something that can be done to the rifle to aid feeding. Maybe taper the base of the chamber like a funnel? I don't know how much unsupported case head sticks out when these chamber, but there's a pretty large fudge-factor there with standard pressure .45 ACP as far as how much chamber support it has to have, just look at a 1911 barrel sometime. Perhaps there isn't enough bevel cut on your chamber.

Gear

[roysha]

gearnasher:

Thank you for the thoughts. I actually (by accident) did that with the TC bullet because this barrel has virtually no leade and the sized diameter of the bullet outside of the case, ahead of the crimp, ran into the rifling creating the condition you suggested.

I have beveled and polished the chamber mouth as much as I am comfortable with.

The problem for me with misalignment is side to side, very seldom up and down, If the cartridge is not picked up "perfectly" by the extractor, the nose will shift a bit to the right causing the bullet to hit the mouth of the chamber. In the RN configuration, the round will more or less self align and continue into the chamber. Almost any other shape will catch enough of the edge to create a stoppage. Occasionally the round will pop out from under the extractor and when this happens the nose will drop causing the bullet shoulder to hook on the chamber mouth. The cartridge can sometimes be forced into the chamber but more often than not, it will be so angled that it will not enter the chamber.

I do have one of the NOE "pointy bullet" molds and have not yet cast any. This may be a solution also.

I know, about now you thinking "WHY"?? and I fully understand the question. My answer is "just because" I believe you will understand that.

[geargnasher]

Same reason a hound dog licks himself. It's because he CAN.

Gear