Lil' Gun, forcing cone erosion, & M92s

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

I've recently read that Lil' Gun has developed a reputation for eroding forcing cones on revolvers. My Blackhawk definitely shows signs of it.

I was wondering if this problem can translate into lever actions though. The lever guns don't have the cylinder gap letting gases out, but the SAAMI chamber dimensions have a "forcing cone" shaped throat.

Has anyone heard of Lil'Gun causing problems in the .357 lever actions?

[454PB]

I'm a Lil'Gun fan, and use it in all my .454's (three revolvers and a Puma 92 rifle). Yes, I have some erosion of the forcing cones, but I had it before I ever used Lil'Gun. H-110, WW296, and AA#9 all cause some erosion too.

Do a search here and you'll find lots of discussion about erosion, as well as some pictures of mine and others guns.

[stubshaft]

I usually use LG in my 500 S&W Encores there is no indication of any erosion in the throat.

[303Guy]

I don't know about revolvers but Lil'Gun in my hornet is damn powerful stuff. It would heat the barrel something awesome until I upped the charge by a tiny amount and the heating went away. It's weird stuff. But in a revolver I'd have thought it behaved like other powders with no extraordinary velocity gains.

[bobthenailer]

I have used LIL GUN in the 22 hornet , 357 mag , 38 super , 44 mag & mostley in the 454 casull
with great accuracy and in the 22h & 357 mag & 38 super , higher velocity than whats obtainable with other powders within safe pressures.
The only problem ive had with it is in the FA 454 casull after a while i was getting erosion & pitting of the cyl face on 2 guns and one started leading severly out of nowhere ! i tracked it down to a rough bore midway down the barrel . I firelapped the barrel to smoothe it out and its been fine for 2 years now . & have went back to 296 & H110 for full power loads even after i bought a 8 lb keg of lil gun
There was alot of talk on some different fourms & from freedom arms about useing lil gun in the FA 454 casull and ruineing barrels, AND IT IS CONSIDERED TO BE A NO NO IN THER GUNS AT LEAST. i havent seen any bad reports in other calibers though , or experinced any problems in the calibers i load it in.

[felix]

Heat is always the culprit. ... felix

[44man]

I tried it in a nice Freedom .357 and with 12 shots I did not want to touch the barrel. I swear I could solder with it.
It was accurate and fast but is so hot the flame might erode steel. I saved the rest for the .410. My revolvers are worth too much to me.

[Paulinski]

I used it in stout 700gr 500S&W loads.

However I only shot a few of those and I did not notice any significant heat nor forcing cone erosion. My hand can't handle a lot of those :)

[gasboffer]

I read the report by the owner of Freedom Arms. He stated that they had tested Lil Gun in one of his revolvers and had gas-cutting in just a few rounds. They replaced the barrel and had the same results. I checked my Ruger BH .357 which had probably fifty rounds through it using Lil-Gun, Sure enough! The forcing cone was pretty well shot! Used the rest of the Lil-Gun for fertilizer!

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

It would heat the barrel something awesome until I upped the charge by a tiny amount and the heating went away.

That is truly weird. Can you post some more details? Was this near max charge and you upped it to maximum? or beyond maximum? How much is a tiny amount?

I first got into reloading about the time Lil' Gun threads first began hitting these boards. As a result it was the first ball magnum powder I went with and never really bothered to try H110.

Do my guns heat up too hot to touch using Lil' Gun? You betcha. But I just thought this was normal from shooting lots. I never thought to compare the heat generated from different magnum loads.

I will have to pay more attention to which loads generate the heat. I've found that 13 grains of Lil' Gun produces 1" groups at 50 yards with a '92 and Lee's 358-158-RF boolit. But that might be the load that gets the guns so hot.

Am I correct in thinking that without the cylinder gap, the heat won't erode much in a lever action because there's not gas blowing by?

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

The forcing cone was pretty well shot!

How bad does the erosion have to get to totally ruin the barrel/cone? My gun just has the erosion on the edge of the cone. When I pull the cylinder out and put a bullet into the cone, sides of the boolit don't even touch the eroded part. The rest of the cone appears fine.

[mroliver77]

I. The lever guns don't have the cylinder gap letting gases out, but the SAAMI chamber dimensions have a "forcing cone" shaped throat.



Erosion might be a good thing to "soften" the funnel shaped "throat" in these guns! lol :kidding:

[Char-Gar]

It takes allot of hot gas to cause erosion of forcing cones. If you have it, you are shooting loads way hotter than a person needs for normal shooting. Throttle the loads back, and save your wrists, elbows, hands and forcing cone. Shooting is supposed to be fun and not a puberty test.

If you REALLY NEED some serious smack down when the bullet hits, then load up some full snort stuff and flail away. Don't worry about the toll it takes on your pistol or your body.

I have come to understand that shooting is as much about what is between a fellows ears than it is about what is in his hands.

[44man]

It takes allot of hot gas to cause erosion of forcing cones. If you have it, you are shooting loads way hotter than a person needs for normal shooting. Throttle the loads back, and save your wrists, elbows, hands and forcing cone. Shooting is supposed to be fun and not a puberty test.

If you REALLY NEED some serious smack down when the bullet hits, then load up some full snort stuff and flail away. Don't worry about the toll it takes on your pistol or your body.

I have come to understand that shooting is as much about what is between a fellows ears than it is about what is in his hands.
Not really true. I never use full snort stuff and Lil'Gun loads were at start, not near max, but the stuff burns with a hot flame.
That flame is hotter then the melting point of steel. Of course most powder fire is and the steel transmits the heat away but Lil'Gun has too much.
I compare it to a propane torch verses an oxy torch.
What would you like better, a propane torch down the bore or a welding torch?

[357maximum]

I lengthened and burnt the leade on my 357Max Encore with LilGun. Most of the blame lands on my shoulders but the stuff just burns hot and it also gets funky at upper end loadings. I quit using it in my max because I could only shoot a few shots before the barrel got waaay hot. Anyone that has been to the range with me can attest that I am no slowfire wizard.;) I needed a powder that could be shot in longer volleys. LilGun is NOT that powder.

[fecmech]

I tried some LilGun in my .357 levers summer before last and it seemed to really heat up the barrels. I normally shoot 15/820/296 behind a 358429 as my magnum load when shooting steel and while the barrel gets warm with extended shooting it doesn't get real hot. After 10 rds of LilGun downrange my barrel felt like I had just fired 10 rds of .308 jacketed rounds, that baby was hot! It didn't do anything better than 296/820 did so that was the end of my LilGun experiment, gave the rest to my buddy who shoots .410.

[Char-Gar]

Not really true. I never use full snort stuff and Lil'Gun loads were at start, not near max, but the stuff burns with a hot flame.
That flame is hotter then the melting point of steel. Of course most powder fire is and the steel transmits the heat away but Lil'Gun has too much.
I compare it to a propane torch verses an oxy torch.
What would you like better, a propane torch down the bore or a welding torch?

I should have been more clear, but I was not thinking ahead to the inevitable challenge which takes place on this board. I was not speaking to the issue of the powder in question, but to general principals and practices. With that said, I will stick by my original post.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

It takes allot of hot gas to cause erosion of forcing cones. If you have it, you are shooting loads way hotter than a person needs for normal shooting. Throttle the loads back, and save your wrists, elbows, hands and forcing cone. Shooting is supposed to be fun and not a puberty test.


I was not speaking to the issue of the powder in question, but to general principals and practices.

Since when is a .357 Mag in a 6.5" Blackhawk gonna raise grief with your wrists? I'm not talking hot loading - just max loading.

For what it's worth, I don't shoot a whole lot of Lil'Gun loaded to the max - the vast majority is loaded way down. But one poster here has suggested that increasing the powder dose actually caused things to cool down which I find baffling.

[felix]

Not unreasonable to expect something like that during possible SEE conditions. An extreme velocity spread going nuts for various powder volumes, plus or minus, is one of the tell-tale signs. ... felix

[Char-Gar]

Since when is a .357 Mag in a 6.5" Blackhawk gonna raise grief with your wrists? I'm not talking hot loading - just max loading.

For what it's worth, I don't shoot a whole lot of Lil'Gun loaded to the max - the vast majority is loaded way down. But one poster here has suggested that increasing the powder dose actually caused things to cool down which I find baffling.

I don't know how old you are or how long you have shooting, but I will 70 real soon and have been shooting handguns for 50 years. The result is bad arhritis in my hands, bad tendons in the elbows, and zero high frequency hearing. In a recent conversation with John Taffin he in the same shape. We both stick to handguns like the 38 Special and factory level 45 Colt loads. John has had surgery to keep shooting ans uses wrist braces for any heavy six gun loads.

Most senior hand gunners will tell you the same story. It is the repeated shock to the hands and arms that does the damage. Some of us try and warn the younger shooters, but most often the counsel is scoffed at. The old guys just cant know anything of value...or so it would seem

[jandbn]

Most senior hand gunners will tell you the same story. It is the repeated shock to the hands and arms that does the damage. Some of us try and warn the younger shooters, but most often the counsel is scoffed at. The old guys just cant know anything of value...or so it would seem


Sure wish I would have listened to my elders when I was young!

[44man]

I don't know how old you are or how long you have shooting, but I will 70 real soon and have been shooting handguns for 50 years. The result is bad arhritis in my hands, bad tendons in the elbows, and zero high frequency hearing. In a recent conversation with John Taffin he in the same shape. We both stick to handguns like the 38 Special and factory level 45 Colt loads. John has had surgery to keep shooting ans uses wrist braces for any heavy six gun loads.

Most senior hand gunners will tell you the same story. It is the repeated shock to the hands and arms that does the damage. Some of us try and warn the younger shooters, but most often the counsel is scoffed at. The old guys just cant know anything of value...or so it would seem
Me too, just made 74 on Dec 18. But I have no problems and shoot the .475, .500 JRH and have shot much larger. I just limit the amount shot at any time however I can shoot the .44 mag all day.
I learned long ago to hold the gun tight, never let any gun "roll" or impact your hand. I love the hog leg best of all. All they need are Pachmeyer grips to get my knuckle away from the guards. I need something under or on my elbow from the bench or Creedmore. Rug burns are nasty. Now I have shot handguns with nasty recoil for over 56 years and do not even need a glove for the JRH or .475.
But we are all built different and some might get hurt with a .357.
Showing my friends how to shoot the big ones has shown they have a very reduced barrel rise and reduced wrist whip, they actually enjoy the guns. When they shoot the JRH, the barrel does not rise any more then the .44.
Then I hate light guns too, guns MUST have weight. Use very short barrels or alloy guns that are meant to be shot little and used for carry will ruin a man if you shoot a lot.
Why shoot a 6# .460 Weatherby? Contenders in large calibers are deadly, only recoil bragging guns! [smilie=1:To take a friend out to shoot and laugh at him with his recoil reaction is so wrong.
I do everything I can to make shooting fun and instruction with the right gun that does no damage to a friend is important. I promote shooting, I never scare anyone and will NEVER let certain people shoot a big gun. Even when a friend is big and strong and refuses to shoot a gun, I respect that.
I do not like anyone that thinks they are tough, I prefer they respect the gun and to refuse to shoot one is the correct way.
I am guilty! :( Had a friend over I thought had experience but he split his head and got a nasty shiner. He told me he likes to hold a revolver "loose." I sure did not know that and failed to instruct him---NO MORE! We shot IHMSA together for years so I thought he knew. A harsh lesson, mostly for me and it made my instructions better.
Yes, you can shoot big guns without pain or damage with the right gun and instruction. If you tell me a hog leg should "roll" to get you closer to the hammer, you will not shoot my gun.

[44man]

We need to talk loads. Lil'Gun has a following because it has reduced pressure and more velocity. Overlook the HEAT for a moment and look at why the powder is chosen----VELOCITY! :brokenima
I refuse to work loads with a chronograph I look for accuracy FIRST. Some guns and boolits will need close to max, others do not.
There are two bad words---HOW FAST?

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Char-Gar,

Please forgive me. These message forums just ain't the same as hanging 'round the old woodstove at the hardware store. You can't "see" who you are talking too.

That said, the way the .357 is touted as weak in comparison to what is currently available I seldom hear of it being referred to as a "big gun".

I respect your experience and wisdom, so what would you and Taffin recommend to a younger shooter as the upper limit of power to avoid your situation?

And is it possible that a guy can shoot a bigger gun if he shoots less often and still suffer no ill affects?

And what do you think a guy could get away with if he were using a heavier shooting iron?

I'm in my early 40s and have only been shooting handguns for about 10 years. If I shoot 1000 rounds/year I'm lucky. And the handgun I shoot is a .357 mag Ruger Blackhawk w/ a 6.5-inch barrel. I've honestly never felt like it was abusive. I do a lot of one-handed shooting and let it "roll" too.

[44man]

I need to step in too. The .357 is not weak and I have shot many that HURT.
Your BH is a fine gun but stop the "roll" and you will find better accuracy. Just hold it tighter. Don't reach the shake point, just get a better grip.
Bigger calibers need bigger and heavier guns. There is no way out.
Yes, you can shoot a larger caliber but don't pick a 2# gun.
Letting a revolver "roll" can let the hammer slam into your web. It is better to let the gun raise your arm. The important thing for accuracy is that you can not control where the muzzle is at boolit exit.
To let a .500 "roll" can be a trip to the hospital. 8-)
"Roll" is such a false old wives tale it is silly. It is why the Bisley was developed so the grip pushed back. Yet the Bisley is sensitive to hold and can actually hurt more with the big guns. It is a fix not needed and can damage you more if recoil is high. The Bisley was made for low recoil, one hand shooting.
Sorry, I had ONE, sold it fast, shot many, many more and will never own another.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Well I don't plan on getting a .44 much less a .500.

Why is it that the "roll" is a wives tale? I'm guessing that this may have come from the day and age when the .45 Colt was as potent as handguns got. Honestly, I don't remember feeling any pain when shooting my .357 this way.

Yes I know that this method is not the most accurate, I can hit smaller targets when I hold two-handed. But, there are times when I'm just trying to see how quickly I can pop milk jugs from less than 25 yards - in which case I'm interested in getting the gun cocked and ready ASAP.

I agree with your comments about accuracy. The first thing I look for is what I consider acceptable accuracy. Lil' Gun meets those requirements. As long as the accuracy requirements are met, why not get more velocity?

[Char-Gar]

Black Jaque... I don't think any scientific studies have been done on the subject, just a bunch of old shooters hurting and sharing. I have no idea where the cut off point for damage is. I will only say, use all the horsepower in a handgun you need. If you don't need the horses, consider cutting back. I realize full well, that some folks just plain enjoy the big blasters, then they should do what they want to do. They just need to realize they will pay the price down the road.

For most of us, all of the injuries and insults to our bodies will come back to haunt us. On a cold day, my right shoulder hurts because I fell out of a tree on it, when I was about eight years old. It didn't hurt for 50 years and then one day, it showed up again. That is just the way of life and getting older.

There is nothing wrong with getting older and I am still having a blast, but we do learn some things on the journey from the womb to the tomb.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Char-gar,

OK. I'm going to guess that I'm probably in the safety margin then. I don't shoot all that often. Most of my loads are not full .357 power, but are certainly better than .38 spl. My gun is not an eensy-weensy concealed-carry snubby.

[44man]

[QUOTE=Black Jaque Janaviac;1531476]Well I don't plan on getting a .44 much less a .500.

Why is it that the "roll" is a wives tale? I'm guessing that this may have come from the day and age when the .45 Colt was as potent as handguns got. Honestly, I don't remember feeling any pain when shooting my .357 this way.

Yes I know that this method is not the most accurate, I can hit smaller targets when I hold two-handed. But, there are times when I'm just trying to see how quickly I can pop milk jugs from less than 25 yards - in which case I'm interested in getting the gun cocked and ready ASAP.
Cast Boolits - Dedicated To The World Of Cast Bullets! (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/index.php)
I agree with your comments about accuracy. The first thing I look for is what I consider acceptable accuracy. Lil' Gun meets those requirements. As long as the accuracy requirements are met, why not get more velocity?[/QUOTE
Gun damage is why. You never need velocity for accuracy. You need what the gun and boolit needs, never more.
Roll is to get the hammer close for cocking the gun faster. Not a thing in the old west where fast draw was a false movie bunch of junk. Most guys were shot from behind, no quick draw in the street things.
You talk "fun" shooting and that is different then group shooting or hunting. Enjoy it, it is fun. Yet a better gun hold will let you hit better. Never let the gun take control.
The hog leg is great but a Bisley was thought to be better. Then the double action grips and the wonderful 1911 grip. The Ruger Mark I and the Luger grip angles. Each can have a problem and a few will never be made better.
A single action hog leg was not made to "roll" and every other grip design was made to get away from it. Some still fail for accuracy. Control of the hog leg still works. I find it the most forgiving of all.
I also love the Ruger Mark I and II grips. The 1911 can not be improved.

[mpmarty]

Absolutely the most painful handgun I've ever owned was a "little" 357 Magnum with a two and a half inch barrel made by Ruger. That little spitfire was flat out nasty with factory ammo. Got rid of it after a year or so and replaced it with a Detonics 45 for carry.

[44man]

Absolutely the most painful handgun I've ever owned was a "little" 357 Magnum with a two and a half inch barrel made by Ruger. That little spitfire was flat out nasty with factory ammo. Got rid of it after a year or so and replaced it with a Detonics 45 for carry.
Yep, even small calibers can be painful.
I have an MOA, 10" in 7BR. It has a grip very close to the Bisley. It weighs 3-3/4# and still beat my knuckle into submission. I had the closed loop lever. I sent for the open loop and it was worse. I got some stainless and made my own with a smooth transition at the guard. Pain is gone. It is surprising how such a little cartridge can hurt.
Anyone shooting these in .308 or larger will not last long.
That is the main thing I don't like about a Bisley, it gets my large knuckle so it makes me shift my grip and that ruins my accuracy. A set of Pachmeyer grips will work wonders.
It is why I always tell a guy to shoot a gun or one like it first before making weight or grip decisions.
I never recommend anything, I just tell what I get with certain guns, my hands are different and so is everyone else.
I hate any gun that hurts, it can be fixed even if you have to sell it.
I can take a lot of recoil and don't gloat over my big calibers because they don't hurt me. If you are hurting, change something.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

This has done a tailspin into major thread drift.

[44man]

This has done a tailspin into major thread drift.
I agree, yet it is all connected. I never found a way to separate information about the revolver.
But I hope your questions have been answered about the powder. Things can stray and it is OK, our great mediators understand because if anything helps in any way, it is still right.
Think of it as friends with plates of ribs. You would not discuss the one funny rib you found for a day! :veryconfu
Just think of it as friendly discussions, it is why I love it here. I don't think it would work so well with a pigeon hole for everything.
Give me your best deer steak recipe here and if you think I would complain, your CRAZY, just also put it the recipe forum.
Maybe I am too loose but I feel as if I am with real friends, not tight butts.

[376Steyr]

There are four things you should avoid discussing with strangers: Sex, religion, politics, and whether Lil' Gun is erosive. Something about this powder has the same effects on posters here as the full moon does on lycanthropes. You should probably move on to something less controversial, such as "Which is better, hard lube or soft lube?":kidding:

[cbrick]

That is the main thing I don't like about a Bisley, it gets my large knuckle so it makes me shift my grip and that ruins my accuracy. A set of Pachmeyer grips will work wonders.

Truer words were never spoken, doesn't matter if it is a Bisley or a plow handle . . . Grip is everything with revolver accuray. Change your grip even slightly from shot to shot and forget putting the next shot where the last one went, the longer the range the more the effect. Revolvers are the most grip sensitive firearm types ever made. It's lock time and barrel time, both very slow in a revolver and your grip tremendously effects where the muzzle is when the bullet exits, it takes a very small change in grip to have a huge effect on where the muzzle is at bullet exit.

A big plus 1 on the Pachmeyer grips, they turned my OMSBH 44 from . . . do I really want to pull the trigger into a joy to shoot.

I've been following this thread because I've been playing with Lil Gun a bit lately but not yet enough to know of any forcing cone wear. Interesting thread.

Rick

[fecmech]

"Which is better, hard lube or soft lube?"
Now there's something we can all agree on!

[Bullet Caster]

I have considered Lil' Gun powder but now it is not even a consideration. I love this site and have learned a lot about how different powder choices effect accuracy and pain. Do you guys who shoot revolvers always aim at your target? Not me. I enjoy shooting from the hip and have thought that reloading would increase my accuracy shooting from the hip 'cause I could shoot more and with practice comes accuracy. Now mind you, I don't ALWAYS shoot from the hip, depending on what I'm shooting at. It's fun to put plastic jugs, bottles, etc. out in front of you and fire at them from the hip. I must confess that I'm getting better at it.

From all that I've read on this forum and others that powder choice is a variable and can change the amount of felt recoil. I plan on using W-231 for my Colt .45 clone as well as my .45ACP and 9mm. I've seen more recommendations for this powder than anything else. I've noticed that Unique leaves some unburnt powder and shoots "nasty" to quote a few. I want complete powder burn and I've heard that W-231 used in these calibres gives optimum results. Thanks to this thread I've completely rulled out Lil' Gun. I don't want any erosion of my forcing cones thus my decision not to use Lil' Gun powder. Also I don't want my bbl. to heat up. I choose not to have a welder's torch down my bbl. and I want to practice more with standard loads. I'm not out to prove to anyone that I can handle a "hot" load. My .45ACP sometimes hurts my hand with the recoil from factory ammunition and I've come off the range with a bruise on the web of my right hand. Someone suggested that I change the grip safety to a beavertail one and thus eliminating a bruised hand. I will change to a beavertail grip safety when $$ becomes not a problem. Just cannot afford one at the present. Just a few thoughts on this thread. BC

[Shawn2571]

I have never used it in revolvers, but i use it in my 500 S&W handi rifle. Do you think it's ruining my gun?

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I don't think so...but my opinion about this, isn't real important.

I use Lil'gun in 22 hornet and haven't noticed any problems. Single shot Rifles are not likely to be shot with the frenquency of a revolver...at least mine aren't.

If you seat your boolits to touch the lands, like I do...then you will have a 'base point' to could check your rifle's throat, by loading some dummy rounds, to see if the throat/lands are eroded.

[MT Chambers]

I've never used Lil gun in a revolver and never will but I was getting serious pressure excursions when trying it in a .300 B.O., all were recommended loads and not max.

[Minerat]

I use it in a 17 Hornet, and is great for that. Haven't tried it in handguns. No problems noticed in the rifle.

[blue32]

This is the first time I've read about Lil Gun and forcing cone issues. I've recently developed a 14.1 gr. load under a cast 180 gr. for my 686. I've only put a few hundred through it at this point and haven't noticed any discernible wear. My '12 vintage gun has ~8k magnums on it so if I burn the cone/leade, S&W will just replace the barrel for free. Heck, they've already replaced my broken 642.

[odfairfaxsub]

Used it in my 50 beo. No unusual heat

[marek313]

I've never used Lil gun in a revolver and never will but I was getting serious pressure excursions when trying it in a .300 B.O., all were recommended loads and not max.

I dont remember having any pressure issues with LG in my 300AAC but I got better accuracy with H110 and with less heat so I've been using 16.5gr of H110 under various 150gr FMJs with good results.

[Green Frog]

OK, although I had been advised that I might want to try Li'l Gun in my 32 S&W L Model 16-3, along with some of my more rowdy 32's, with what I am reading here tonight I've come to the conclusion that at my age and with all of the other really neat powders I haven't tried as well as the classic ones that I want to revisit, I can safely cross that one powder off of my bucket list and probably not miss it. JMHO. YMMV. :coffeecom

Froggie