I hate

[Boerrancher]

Today I was at the rifle range with a friend of mine and his son. The range was fairly empty, and we were shooting our muzzleloaders at some clay birds I had put on the 50 yard back stop making them about 60 yards away. There were 4 left and we was taking turns loading our guns and letting his boy blast away. The 22 range is right next to the 50 yard range, and some jerk showed up with an AK and watched the boy who is 12 shooting at the clay birds. He fired a few rounds at the a target on the 22 and pistol range then decided to shoot diagonally across both ranges spraying down the berm and breaking the last 4 birds the boy was shooting at.

Needless to say, I was hot. Had the boy not been there I think the fella would have got a taste of a brass butt plate. Why do people have to be like that? Is that what we have become as a people? I told Bryan (the boy) that the next time he is out of school that his dad can bring him to my farm and we will shoot there where we won't be bothered. I had to leave because the longer I hung around the madder I became. The way this guy was dressed, with his haircut and neatly groomed mustache, he looked like an off duty cop, right down to the piece in the ankle holster. That is the last thing I need is to go all PTSD on a ******* cop.

Sorry for the rant guys but I had to vent somewhere, and was wondering if anyone has had the same experience?

Best wishes,

Joe

[Reload3006]

that would have gotten him banned from any range I have ever been a member of.

[Frosty Boolit]

That is probably the most dooshbag thing I've heard happen on a range and provacative to say the least. You did a good thing by letting it go though and you'll be feelin' better tomorrow!

[John Boy]

Today I was at the rifle range ...
All the clubs I belong to:
** One's membership badge must be worn.
** The Safety Officer's telephone number is posted if he is not on site

[jonas302]

Good on you to walk away and set a good example for the boy

[Aloxite]

Lousy behavior for sure. My guess is that he is an idiot. Probably because his parents were idiots.

Just remember to use such situations to give the boy a positive lesson. "That my boy, was a douchebag move. Don't do anything like that." Don't let the situation draw you down to his level.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

So because he looked and acted like a d-bag you assume he was a cop???

Hmmm... hopefully you didn't say that in front of the youngster....

And people wonder why the police are shown no respect nowadays....

[smoked turkey]

+1 on your example for the boy. He probably will not forget the incident and the way you handled it made it a positive experience for you and the boy.

[Reg]

Best use for an idiot like that is as a bad example.

[Ernest]

I know that you are mad and RIGHTLY SO. On the other hand you have to feel a little sorry for the silly turd bag that did that. He obviously didn't have a Dad. Probably the closest thing he ever got to that was Mama's boy friend of the week coming in and out of the house. Feral children just don't grow up to be very responsible as adults.[smilie=b:[smilie=b:

[gutthooked]

Sorry for your misfortune at the range.

Was that a public range or your local club?

[Dan Cash]

So because he looked and acted like a d-bag you assume he was a cop???

Hmmm... hopefully you didn't say that in front of the youngster....

And people wonder why the police are shown no respect nowadays....

No need to make assumptions, the cops earn their respect or lack thereof.

[Boerrancher]

So because he looked and acted like a d-bag you assume he was a cop???

Hmmm... hopefully you didn't say that in front of the youngster....

And people wonder why the police are shown no respect nowadays....

First off I never said a word to the boy about who I thought he was, but the neatly groomed hair and well groomed mustache, along with the ankle holster, and the Large St Louis County PD patch on the jacket he had folded up on the bench, told me he was probably a cop. I am sorry I failed to mention it earlier. The boy saw the jacket as well as his father and I did.

And people wonder why the police are shown no respect nowadays...

As a career Army officer and an NCO before being commissioned I learned that respect is a two way street and something that has to be earned.

All of this took place on a public range and I still have yet to figure why a St Louis County Cop would be at a public range out in the middle of no where one a hard to find back road, unless he was there to stir something up in the first place. How am I and the rest of us suppose to teach the next generation of shooters proper etiquette on a range when they see adults that have none? In all honesty It will be the last time I go back there. I have plenty of room to shoot here on the farm and I think I will just from now on have all of my friends come here, instead of meeting them there.

Best wishes,

Joe

[subsonic]

I've been on the wrong end of stuff like that before. My favorite is when you put out a few targets for yourself and someone show up and shoots at them for you, while you are shootin at them. Makes it hard to sight in a deer rifle. Usually the guy shooting at them has something like an AK or SKS and with no scope or spotting scope would never know if he was hitting the target anyway.

Then there are people who don't understand the difference between a hot and cold line...

[Reload3006]

First off I never said a word to the boy about who I thought he was, but the neatly groomed hair and well groomed mustache, along with the ankle holster, and the Large St Louis County PD patch on the jacket he had folded up on the bench, told me he was probably a cop. I am sorry I failed to mention it earlier. The boy saw the jacket as well as his father and I did.

And people wonder why the police are shown no respect nowadays...

As a career Army officer and an NCO before being commissioned I learned that respect is a two way street and something that has to be earned.

All of this took place on a public range and I still have yet to figure why a St Louis County Cop would be at a public range out in the middle of no where one a hard to find back road, unless he was there to stir something up in the first place. How am I and the rest of us suppose to teach the next generation of shooters proper etiquette on a range when they see adults that have none? In all honesty It will be the last time I go back there. I have plenty of room to shoot here on the farm and I think I will just from now on have all of my friends come here, instead of meeting them there.

Best wishes,

Joe

Wow local to me. I assume you were at one of the conservation area ranges ... Reifschneider or the one up by troy? Yes I mainly shoot at my farm now because of similar occurrences. I do however go to the public unsupervised ranges to pick up brass.

[Boerrancher]

Reload3006,

I was at the Little Indian Creek range, and it is one of those that is way out in the boonies in Washington County. The range is closed on Mondays for maintenance and I go there to pick up bullets off of the berm.

Best wishes,

Joe

[DODGEM250]

Sounds like a few of the young stupid yah hoos from our local range. Got more ego than brains with a gun and friends close by.

[blasternank]

guys like that are the reason people post their land no hunting! They don't care about others or what they are doing--only themselves.

[felix]

Typical of folks having shoot-first mentality and ask questions later. These are folks who should not have guns, and give us all a bad name. I combat this line of thought every chance I get when I meet such a person. Such folks have such defensive personalities that it is difficult to have an instructive conversation with. Witness several folks on this board. ... felix

[zuke]

You shoulda just started to shoot your smoke pole's on both side's of him.
Wait for him to set up a target and shoot at it.
Did you get a licence plate?
Stunt's like that probablt got him kicked out of the range he belonged to.

[Boerrancher]

I had I have known which vehicle was his, (there were two vehicles there besides Dave's and mine) I would have gotten more than a license plate number. I would have taken all of the valve cores out of his tires and taped them to his door handle so he wouldn't loose them. You never know when one of those little suckers might vibrate loose and get away.

Best wishes,

Joe

[Alan]

Uh, guys, it was probably handled the best way it could have been, short of notifying RO's of what was going on - Let the range owner deal with it. I would hope that jerk would have been banned for life - he certainly would have been at the range where I shoot.

[bigted]

walking away with dignity is always the hardest thing to do and the example to the boy will last a lifetime where as your bruised ego of turning your back properly to a bismal human being will only hurt for a day or two.

thankyou for doing the rite thing whether this oxegen thief deserves it or not. life is not a Clint movie and we are not responsible for bad behaviour even and especially when we want to teach a poor soul a valuable lesson

[2571]

Totally diagree.

Your failure to confront the guy sent poor messages to both the shooter and your young friend.

Your actions would instruct your young shooter that one ought suffer abuse without so much as verbal protest and you teach the shooter destroying your property that he can insult strangers with impunity.

I assume you are a mature male. You surely could have protested this gross breach of shooting etiquette without engaging in fisiticuffs.

[Lucky Joe]

I appreciate your resolve, however you never shoot across lanes. Don't think I could have had your demeanor in this case. I would have at the least had a talk with him and explained the rules of the club and common sense then the penalty for such actions.

[FL-Flinter]

I'll give you credit for walking away rather than doing something worse than what the other guy did ... however, you should have at least went info-fishing. Curb your anger/disgust and start some small talk and see what you can learn about him which will also let you gauge his attitude/intention. From there you can decide if you're dealing with someone who just doesn't know any better or total jackwagon. If he's just ignorant, it'll be apparent and you can go with the "just making you aware of the rules of this range..." talk. If the latter, bite your tongue and keep info-fishing without giving it away that your interrogating. Make mental notes of the pertinent details then return to your party and take some photo's to remember the day ... use the zoom function which works well to grab pic's of a vehicle/license plate while you're moving around "searching for signal". If it turned out he was an LEO, or just a dirtbag, best to file an official written complaint with the local LE agency as well as Fish & Game if they've got jurisdiction over the range and get a copy of the complaint(s) so if there's any subsequent issues, you have the records.

[curator]

Boerancher:

A good response would have been:

"Wow, good shooting! We'll have a cold range while you set up some new targets for my boy."

Then stand back expectantly waiting. While it is usually difficult to embarrass people with no personal honor it would have been a good lesson for your boy on how to deal with turd-heads.

[canyon-ghost]

I agree with these guys. My Dad always told me that it takes a bigger man to walk away from a fight than to start one.

[Cornfused]

Congratulations on just walking away.

This brings up a 'Dirty little Secret'. Some people, a small minority, have guns who shouldn't - this guy is one of these people.

I never go to a public range anymore because of just this problem - you don't know who is shooting. A private gun club would kick this guy out.

[Boerrancher]

Fellas you can bet that had I been there with anyone but Dave and his son, I would have said something. Even though the boy is only 12 Dave is in his mid 60's and has no business in an altercation. I doubt if it would have gotten heated I would have had any problems with the guy, but when you are dealing with people with that attitude you never know when they are going to pull their hideaway piece and go to shooting, even over something as simple as, "hay man, the boy was shooting at those, you need to replace them." This guy had the look of wanting to start trouble. I have no desire to get shot over a couple of clay birds. Hot metal at high velocity piercing the skin hurts, I have the scars to prove it. I honestly think this jerk was trying to start something.

Best wishes,

Joe

[cajun shooter]

Boerrancher, First I would like to say that I've always liked you and the many exchanges of information we have shared on this forum.
I do however completely disagree with your assumption that this jerk was s bona-fide cop.
I served my country from 65-67 with the Army and was in the 4th ID.
Once back in civilian life I met many police officers while being employed in a gun store that had many police accounts across southern Louisiana.
I was asked by a few if I was interested in doing a ride along and I jumped at it. It was my long road to taking Criminal Justice classes at LSU to completing the Academy and becoming a full time Deputy Sheriff.
They have many people who like to make people think they are real officers and I arrested more than one for doing this.
The display and placing of the jacket is one clue. Real cops who have to put up with the job and all it's problems try their best to not display who they are for many reasons. While in plain clothes which I worked for many years as both a detective and Narcotics agent we had orders to never display a gun or badge. The main reasons are that you don't know who the people are around you and they could take you out so that they killed a cop. Another reason is that if some bad guys are around they will not take you down first and you may have a chance to help other people.
I found that those who went around flashing badges and patches were either want to be cops, reserve officers, or brand new wet behind the ears cops.
I think that it is wrong for your assumption and is no difference than when I came home and was wearing my uniform on a Greyhound bus and was spit on and called baby killer by people who did not know me or what I did.
The word and action of assume is taught to every new recruit and I'm sure you are aware of it's meaning. Your Black Powder Friend Cajun shooter

[Boerrancher]

Cajun Shooter,

I am glad that you brought this to my attention, and he could have very well have been a mall cop with a county jacket, which is what my wife suggested. I come from a long history of law men in my family, and my favorite uncle was Chief deputy for a long while in Fremont County Wyo, he later moved back here to Mo to be a police chief for one of the local towns, and then went back out wast after 3 years to take a better paying job as a chief in a tiny Wyo town on the Co border. I use to do ride alongs as a kid in the summer when Dad and I would go out west. I saw how the other Deputies were, and how they acted. They were all first rate professionals. All of the Missouri Highway Patrolmen that I have ever met in both good and bad situations were top notch. I have over the last 10 years or so started running into a lot of city and county officers who were dirt bags. That was the main reason my Uncle left the local small town and went back out west, half his officers were dirty and were working for a crooked mayor and there was nothing he could do about it so he quit. I have an acquaintance who is a deputy US Marshal, and he told me that the local Sheriff and a half a dozen deputies are about ready to be indited for drugs and racketeering. SO, with what I see and hear from the streets locally gives me a pretty low estimation of the LEO's that are in the area, especially when I know first hand how LEO's are suppose to act. I know that there are a lot of good cops out there in other parts of the county, and there are some damn fine cops and sheriff's deputies around here as well, but they have to lay low because of the crooked ones. If I need a LEO I don't call the Sheriffs Department I call the Highway Patrol or the Local Game Warden.

Best wishes,

Joe

[Bret4207]

Boerrancher, First I would like to say that I've always liked you and the many exchanges of information we have shared on this forum.
I do however completely disagree with your assumption that this jerk was s bona-fide cop.
I served my country from 65-67 with the Army and was in the 4th ID.
Once back in civilian life I met many police officers while being employed in a gun store that had many police accounts across southern Louisiana.
I was asked by a few if I was interested in doing a ride along and I jumped at it. It was my long road to taking Criminal Justice classes at LSU to completing the Academy and becoming a full time Deputy Sheriff.
They have many people who like to make people think they are real officers and I arrested more than one for doing this.
The display and placing of the jacket is one clue. Real cops who have to put up with the job and all it's problems try their best to not display who they are for many reasons. While in plain clothes which I worked for many years as both a detective and Narcotics agent we had orders to never display a gun or badge. The main reasons are that you don't know who the people are around you and they could take you out so that they killed a cop. Another reason is that if some bad guys are around they will not take you down first and you may have a chance to help other people.
I found that those who went around flashing badges and patches were either want to be cops, reserve officers, or brand new wet behind the ears cops.
I think that it is wrong for your assumption and is no difference than when I came home and was wearing my uniform on a Greyhound bus and was spit on and called baby killer by people who did not know me or what I did.
The word and action of assume is taught to every new recruit and I'm sure you are aware of it's meaning. Your Black Powder Friend Cajun shooter

A good point and my first thought too. Mall cop, campus cop, rent a cop, maybe some sort of key board commando. Either way he had no manners and Joe did far better than I would have.

[cajun shooter]

Joe, I thank you for your kind reply but it seems that a few bad ones are giving you the wrong idea about who to direct your anger at. It was this one jerk and he was just that for sure. I also commend you for your handling of the situation as I may not have been able to not react when this fool shot the clay targets that were not his.
Let me say that I had contact with a few bad cops. But they were maybe 5 out of the 600 we had on our department.
I'm sure that the department that you said is all bad is just not so. I don't know the size but if it's small then they most likely have some good ones that are being thrown in because they have not spoken up.
Most civilians do not understand in any way what it means to be a cop in a large department. It was easy for me to make as many as 10 arrests on a 12 hour shift. If you see another cop do something wrong you stay quite about it until you can be sure that the person you talk with is clean also. If you happen to point out the wrong person then you are known as a snitch and avoided by all the others.
You have military service, what if while on patrol your entire squad opened up on civilians.
Do you think you would live very long if you went running back and reported them at that time?
Don't misread what I'm saying. I don't like a crooked cop one bit because it takes one and the public thinks they are all guilty. What I'm saying is that the department you are talking about can't be doing things wrong everyday or the Federal Government would not allow them to operate one more day.
When you believe that an entire department is dirty then that is wrong.
If it some country department with only 6 members then that is quite possible. If it is a regular big city force of 500 or more then I think that a lot of rumors are being spread as the truth.
We did a test while I was attending a DEA school. The subject matter was just this and to prove his point the instructor had a written rumor that he verbally gave to the first student of 50 that were present.
The last student had to stand and tell the class what was said. We all had a huge laugh as it was nothing like what was said to the first person.
This was making a point about believing what we hear and then pass it on as the truth.
I feel that this is what has happened to your local department. I don't live there as you do and I'm not saying that I know more than you. I'm just saying to think how hard it would be for any large department to be corrupt from top to bottom. Your Friend David

[eljefe]

I manage an indoor gun range, and often find myself
having to correct unacceptable behavior. Sometimes,
it is just downright stupid behavior.

I find that when I approach and explain in a calm
rational voice, that I get the results I want. Not
correcting the behavior is not an option...we have
many folks in the range and I cannot afford to have
an unsafe environment.

The last thing I want to do is lose my temper...but
since I am human, it does sometimes happen.
The way I see it, if I lose my cool, the other guy wins.

I have only had to give one person the Heave-Ho.
Not bad, considering we are going on 5 and a half
years in business.

Yes, I am armed at all times!

PS What the other guy did is completely unacceptable.
It would get me thrown out of any club I have ever
belonged to, and is unsafe as well as discourteous
behavior.

[Boerrancher]

David,

Most of the departments once you get out of St Louis County, St Charles County, and Jefferson County, here in the East Central part of the state are small. They range from 3 or 4 men to maybe 20. Heck a couple years ago in one small town about 40 min away the feds came in and Locked up the entire force, mayor, and 3 counsel members on 15 charges. It is something that we around here have gotten use to. It doesn't make it right but there you have it. When I was in high school the best drugs in town came from the back of a police car. I know this for a fact as I was with people when they were buying.

On the flip side of that I can take you to another small town where the officers are the best people you could want to meet. I stop at the local gun shop every time I go through just because that is where the on and off duty officers hang out and I enjoy their company. Plus it is a gun shop, so what do you expect, for me to drive past? Also the local game warden is a very close acquaintance, bordering on friend. If I am deer hunting on the property line with the state forest, Tod will swing by my stand and help me drink my coffee. He has given me rides when I was at one end of the property and needed to go to the house or to the other end. Great officer and top notch guy wish all of them were as good. Same with my neighbor the highway patrolman, who lives a couple miles up the road from me, salt of the earth.

I was raised to treat all men equal, until they proved to me that they were not deserving of equal treatment, no matter what their race, religion, or choice of employment. A badge and a gun doesn't make anyone any better than anyone else. If anything it should make them more respectful of those they serve. I will give anyone the benefit of the doubt but once it is obvious and apparent, they have lost me. The same thing went with Sr Officers. I had to follow their orders if they were lawful, and I had to show proper respect to the rank, but there were a few Majors and Lt Colonels, that I had no use for, and a few that were arrogant enough that they got my men Killed, and I couldn't prevent it. I later set them up so that they destroyed their own careers. I believed in policing my own, and think every organization ought to do the same.

We as a nation are living in a culture of corruption, because we are being taught relative morality. It has become the norm for those in power to say, "well yes, I did do that, but I didn't think it was wrong because it wasn't as bad as what so and so did." The public then says, "well you're right it wasn't as bad as so and so," Bill Clinton was the master of relative morality in my life time, and BHO is pretty good, "I don't want them to be punished with a baby." Until we as a society once again embrace real morality and treat our neighbor as we would like to be treated we are going to continue to spiral down as a nation.

This is the last post I will make on this issue because it is venturing into the political realm and I don't wish to go there with it. I do thank each and every one of you for your comments and for allowing me to vent. The guy was a Jerk that is for sure, be he a LEO, or a want to be is of not much consequence, and does not change the fact that he was a Jerk. It was never my intention to offend anyone in any way. I know there are lots of great folks here on the board and there are also a few Jerks that pop up from time to time. That is life. Ten percent of any given population is deviant to the expected norm. This guy was one of those 10%.

Best wishes,

Joe

[mjones1579]

You did well my friend. It's hard enough trying to win the hearts and minds of the non shooting public to preserve our sport without a jerk like that giving us all a bad name. Kudos to your attitude, and thank you for your service to our country.

[El Bango]

My experience was a little different,my old (78) friend and I were at the local Gun Club range all alone and enjoyng a nice day when two cops came out with their "duty" rifles.Black plastic ,fulll auto, you know the drill.Anyway they were laughing between themselves at our outdated junk etc.Well our heroes proceeded to set up targets at 50 yards and commenced to let 'er rip.When the smoke and dust had cleared Lo and Behold .....nary a hole in the target.My old pard and I laughed and punched out a few more bunny targets at 100 yards and said loud enough for the heroes to hear "all that noise and lead is impressive but I coulda led my horse through that fussilade and neither of us would suffered a scratch"they packed up and left.

[RMulhern]

A really good reason I don't go to public ranges and why I have my own range!!

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6149/5928200662_5aa49f765b_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/5928200662/)
Icywinmorn (http://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/5928200662/) by Sharps45 2 7/8 (http://www.flickr.com/people/61286670@N08/), on Flickr

The first target frame on the left is one I just made and I haven't pulled it down range adjacent the impact mound yet.[smilie=w::swagemine:

[Jim]

.....A really good reason I don't go to public ranges and why I have my own range!!

Amen, brother! Amen to that!!

Thank you, Lord, for my little ridge!

[Reload3006]

While I would have been Livid. I hope I Could have kept my Cool as Boerrancher did. I know that many of you you aren't picturing what the range is that I believe BoerRancher is talking about. In Missouri there are a lot of unsupervised ranges owned by the State Conservation Commission. There are Range rules Yes and they are posted. But the range is unsupervised. (no one to enforce the rules) I Can see where things could get out of hand really quick. So just walking away was the best option. There are Private and Public ranges in the area. Bush wildlife being a public. Arnold Gun club and Bench Rest Rifle club. Being private all of the Last three the person would have been immediately with out question ejected from the range LEO or not. The unsupervised ranges well they have their perks but this is one of their down sides too. I go to a lot of the unsupervised ranges to pick up 22 hulls to make bullets out of and will start mining the berms too. At these unsupervised ranges I have met some of the nicest most courteous shooters and I have met some of the most ignorant *****s God let live. I guess it just goes with the territory.