C-Sharps 45-70 Pyrodex

[Papa Jack]

I was curious what ratio tin/lead you guys are using in your Sharps rifles or are you shooting pure lead ?

I have a Lee 405 Grn, HBRN mold, sizing to .459" using either NASA or SPG lube, cast from 1:15 (tin/lead).

I have loaded Pyrodex FFG as well as Triple 7, loaded so the powder has slight compression and no air space. Using a 24" Drop Tube....


Thanks Guys !! Papa Jack

[bigted]

welcome here papa jack. you would do well to recieve unto yourself some reading material...such as paul mathews books or lyman cast book...mike venturino has written some interesting books as well on the subjects you inquire about.

simple answer is 20 or 30 to 1 lead tin mix. kinda soft but not pure lead such as needed for muzzleloading projectiles. also while there is a few that will confess to using other then pure black powder...you will prolly do well on this particulat portion of the cast boolits forum to ask and descuss real black powder as there are some horror stories about the aftermarket powders such as you have mentioned.

other then that you sound like your on the rite track...no air space under the boolit and size the boolit to the bore. for accuracy find out where your rifle wants the boolit launched from...meaning how close to the rifling does it shoot the best. always use a natural lube that is froendly to blackpowder as the patrolium products ussually will gum up the bore and be very hard to clean.

have fun and brace yourself for the onslought of info here both positive [mostly] and some chastizing for even mentioning the OTHER powder...LOL

again welcome.

[cajun shooter]

PaPa Jack, First Welcome Home and Thanks for your service from a 4th ID man.
Second, Please don't use Pyrodex or 777 in that wonderful C-Sharps. We are all free to make our own choices but that rifle and caliber will never show you what it can do with out the use of Black Powder.
It's only a e-mail away from Powder Inc and the new lot of KIK that sells for $156.00 for 10 lbs to your door for 2F. This price includes your Hazmat and shipping charges. If you buy a full case of 25 it gets even better.
The subs will rust a gun 10 times as fast as any BP made.http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_59204d711c5f5bb33.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=98) This is a picture of my new at the time TTN shotgun that was fired with Pyrodex test rounds and then shipped to me with out cleaning with just a four day trip.
Do a search of this forum and look for postings about what the new KIK powder has done so far. Postings by W30wcf (VIDEOS), John Boy, Don McDowell and others.
Real black will not only give you the same feeling as those that came before us but once you settle in there is no going back.
There are some of the best black powder shooters on this earth that will help you in any way possible to have that Sharps shooting one hole 100 yard groups which is very possible.
I will tell you this, anneal all of your cases before you do any loading. This will improve groups by inches to start with. Use a large bullet in the 500 or more grain weight and if you don't have a compression die, purchase one from Buffalo Arms. You will need it. Take Care and the best of luck. Later David

[August]

There is iron in Cajun Shooter's words.

[Papa Jack]

Thank you for your input guys !! I have to say that I was mistaken in my post, I am using 30:1 lead /tin alloy. I have the SPG load book as well as the Mathews 40 years with the 45-70. Lyman and some other B/P load books. We have 4 B/P rifles.
1 58 cal Hawken , 1 56 cal smooth bore,1 58 cal H-R Huntsman, and the sharps.
B/P is not available locally so I been loading with Pyrodex and triple 7....
I guess I better bite the boolit and order some B/P ... Several years ago I bought my son (it's his Sharps) a couple boxes of the GOEX black Powder loaded ammo. Just haven't fired any of em yet....
Thanks again !! "PJ"

[oldred]

I could not agree more about using Pryodex or T7 and I fail to see why this stuff is so popular, it will do nothing that real BP won't do and in several other respects ii comes up short against BP-in addition to being far more corrosive! If BP is a problem there are several good smokeless powders available that would be a better option than either Pryodex or T7 and these will duplicate BP pressures and provide excellent accuracy with no worries about bore fouling and corrosion. But of course you would miss the fun of shooting BP and if you want the smoke, smell and nostalgia factor of BP then the real stuff is the only way to go!

[montana_charlie]

But of course you would miss the fun of shooting BP and if you want the smoke, smell and nostalgia factor of BP then the real stuff is the only way to go!
And ... you will get a different kind of bumping up of the bullet. That's why smokeless shooters MUST have bullets that are one or two thousandths larger than groove diameter.

CM

[wgr]

one reason pyrodex is so popular is the fact it is sold most any place. were black powder is hard to find

[oldred]

And ... you will get a different kind of bumping up of the bullet. That's why smokeless shooters MUST have bullets that are one or two thousandths larger than groove diameter.

CM

I was suggesting smokeless as a better alternative if real BP can not be obtained, besides there are far and away more 45/70 rounds, both in cast and jacketed, loaded with various smokeless powders than with BP and folks get excellent results with it. I shoot BP sometimes even in my Marlins because it can be fun but 5744 and Varget when properly loaded to BP levels yield the same results with no noticeable loss of accuracy.

[Papa Jack]

one reason pyrodex is so popular is the fact it is sold most any place. were black powder is hard to find

I agree.... We had a Black Powder Gun Shop in town, had lots of everything needed to shoot BP, but no black powder....Had Pyrodex,and had That stuff Jim Shockey shoots..
I;m not against BP, I just didn't want to pay the hazmat.. No big deal, I will put together an order in the spring.
I have an OLD can of Hodgdon 3F , But I don't have Data for the Sharps except for bullets that I don't have....
I have some Commercial cast .458" 300 Grain pointed .
Lee 340 grn. and the Lee 405grn HBRN, and the Lee 500 grain pointed bullet.

Just trying to get the rifle to hit a 3 ft square cardboard target at 150 ft is all we are trying to do here.. Had the rifle for about 10 years and can't hit the side of a barn with it. Rather frustrating so it gets cleaned up and put back in the safe and 5 years later we take it out and shoot a few thru it and repeat.... LOL
Hopefully Friday we will try it again (twice in 5 years !!) and try to move the sites so we can hit something.... Thanks guys ! I'll order some BP, "PJ"

[Chill Wills]

I agree.... Just trying to get the rifle to hit a 3 ft square cardboard target at 150 ft is all we are trying to do here.. Had the rifle for about 10 years and can't hit the side of a barn with it. Rather frustrating so it gets cleaned up and put back in the safe and 5 years later we take it out and shoot a few thru it and repeat.... LOL
Thanks guys ! I'll order some BP, "PJ"


Wow!
Papa Jack, Ouch! Missing a 24 moa target at 150 yards would really get me going too! Some rifles are more accurate than others BUT someting is amiss here. That C Sharps rifle most likely will shoot ten times better than that.
Black or smokeless, it should be giving you a big smile every time you shoot! These rifles are made to be accurate.

Cast some of your LEE 500 gr pointy bullets. Should be large enough. Your other molds are poor choices compaired to this one, and you have this one! This is not a great mould either but really not bad. Use it.

Use something like your 1 in 30 alloy. Do not size them.

Lube? Something for BP, forgot what you say you have. DGL, SPG, Eagle ... many others will be fine. Seat the bullet into the rifling about 0.050" so just thumb pressure will complete the chambering of the round. You want to put some rifling marks on the front band of your bullet.

For a load of BP
Either Wipe with one wet and one dry patch. Even plain water is Great!
Or, Blow tube 5-6 long slow breaths. You can shoot all day this time of year with good accuracy. Refine the load as you go. Plenty written on that.

If smokless powder is used there are so many great choices but something like SR-4759, AA- 5744, 4198, 4227, Light loads of Reloader-7 or IMR 3031. The fast Unique and Trail Boss type powders can work but much easer and safer to go with the mid-burn rate clasic 45-70 powders

Do this and you will be happy and that rifle will stop living in the safe!

[Don McDowell]

Is this rifle a C Sharps from Big Timber? or is it one of the Italian imports labeled C Sharps?
If you order KIK in from Powder Inc it's $156 and change deliverd to your door,they also sell powder in 5lb lots.
You can also order 1b at a time from Grafs.
4$ gas to make a trip to a "local" store and buy powder and the hazmat on shipping doesn't amount to much.

You may want to go into that barrel and do some serious lead mining, then see if accuray may want to improove.

[Papa Jack]

This is a C Sharps made in USA.... I hate to sound like a whiner:violin: but this rifle is about 10 years old, my son bought it ,saved up for it and was really proud to own it.
I have a .45-70 Handi Rifle, and we also have .450 Marlins.... So I loaded up some Pyrodex loads using load data that I have, and molds that I had for the other 45-70.
He thought he may hunt Elk with it so he ordered the rifle with a Buck horn sight.
We set up a 3 ft sq. piece of Cardboard at about 75 yards... I only loaded 10 rounds, not knowing if they'd work or what.... No holes.
Puzzling , not only no holes, but we couldn't tell where they were impacting.
took the gun home and cleaned it up, put it away discusted.
A couple months later we try it again.... No target this time, just a great big rock pit with dirt banks, Picked out a rock and started throwin lead....Had to raise the elevater, stand the sight up to get close to anything. Not knowing much about these sights we retreated to the house, cleaned it up and thought about it...
I really hate to get out a file and a hammer and brass drift on a fancy rifle...$$$$$$ his money, I hate to waste it and ruin somethin.
New Years day he decides to take it out again, snowin and blowin, he sits up a target at about 40 ft, just to see if lead really does come out the barrel...
Good group he says, could cover em with a pop can. About 6" high and a little to the left.
Moved the target out to 150 ft, no holes....
So I guess the sights need to be hammered to one side or the other .
The loads don't seem to be real bad, other than they are NOT black Powder... We clean the barrel and action really good and oil it up, I haven't had any corrosion from Pyo or T7 in any of my guns... YET.
Thanks for the help and comments guys, we'll get this thing figgered out sooner or later.... Just kinda frustrating .... LOL. "PJ"

[NickSS]

Fromm your last post I would think that your sights are off. First the buckhorn sights on a C Sharps are good sights when sighted in but I will say that on all five or Six C sharps rifles as well as most other rifles I have owned the factory sights have never been on target without adjustment. If I were you I would load up some loads with either smokeless or black powder that would give me around 12 to 12 hundred fps and set up a target at 50 yards. Lay the rear sight flat and fire one round from a bench rest with one of you spotting for the shooter. If you hit left or right of the target drift the rear sight in the direction the point of impact needs to go until it is centered on the target firing a round now and then to determine this. Once centered, note where the bullet is striking. At 50 yards you want the bullet to hit about six inches or so high as the trajectory of bp loads is hight. If it is shooting about six inches high move your target to 100 yards and fire a round of two and see where it hits. If high you need to either add hight to the front sight or file down the rear sight. If low file the front sight a little at a time until the rifle is hitting where its pointing. Once you do this the rifle will shoot reasonably close with similar loads. I however, would recommend getting a good tang sight for it with windage and elevation adjustments and a globe front sight with inserts would not be amiss either. This will allow you to adjust for varying loads easily as well as for different ranges. I personally own six C sharps rifles at this time and all of them shoot much better than I can but I put good sights on all of them. However, if all you want to do is hunt with it then the barrel sights it came with can be zeroed as described and used for hunting purposes as long as you are not constantly changing the load used.

[cajun shooter]

PaPa Jack, I'm so glad that Nick and Don have given you the info that you need.
You did post one thing that has me worried. You said that you have these Lee moulds that you cast from for your muzzle loaders and other intended to be fired with BP even though you use something else.
The first thing I will say is that everyone here is biting at the bit to help you shoot that rifle and receive the results that you should have.
LEE DOES NOT MAKE ANY MOULDS THAT ARE GOOD BP BULLETS!!!
There moulds do not have enough of the proper sized lube grooves to stop any leading when fired with BP or even some subs. You should at least find a Saeco mould that is correct. The best that I know is the 745. It drops a 535 grain bullet that shoots as well as a lot of custom built moulds.
You keep talking about 300 grain and so bullets. They are not what you need to see the rifle perform. I would look on flea-bay or gun broker and find a 745. If you can't find one then the 645 will work in it's place even though I think it's not as good.
You also need the proper lube. What kind of lube and machine do you have? I will send you some SPG or NASA to get you started with the proper lube as it makes a huge difference.Send me your info.
Now tell me how and what you use to clean your bores with.
I can't remember if I told you but if your cases have seen a lot of firings they need annealing. I'm in no way saying that you don't know what to do but just trying to cover all the bases so that you may have that huge grin that comes from firing a good BP rifle. Take Care and I'm looking forward to have the information I requested.
David

[Papa Jack]

Thanks again Guys for all the help !!
A couple years ago I made up a shootin box for my son for Xmas, I filled it with all kinds of cleaning solvents, oils, patches, what ever. I bought some commercial B/P bore cleaner, I can't recall the brand off hand. He uses it as soon as he gets home and the gun is in good clean condition.
I use Soap and hot water on my front stuffers, pump em with a rag on the end of a cleaning rod, bores are dried and well oiled...
I was wondering about buying a new mold just for the Sharps, I just haven't bought one yet or figgered out which one to purchase, everyone seems to have an opinion. Some are saying that a 500 grain bullet is too much for a .45-70, so I just kinda digest the different info and I haven't stepped up to the plate, kinda like the Black Powder...
OK, while we are talkin Black..... Which Granulation do I want to load these cases ?????
2F ????? Should I order GOEX or the the other brands ?????
I have and use SPG Lube.... I also recently bought NASA I just haven't loaded the Lyman 45 Lubricator . I have used the NASA by hand, until I run out of SPG..
I have two Lyman Lubricators, a used #45 machine that is loaded with SPG . I use this machine only for the 45-70 and use a .459 sizer.
I also have a Lyman 450 lubricator that I have loaded with Bull Shop Speed Green, I use this machine for all my other Cast bullets....
Thanks for the recommendations on the Bullet molds, I'll see if I can make a purchase. This rifle will be used just for Elk Hunting (Kinda Heavy to pack around LOL ) here in the Oregon Coast Range we have heavy brush and steep ground, seldom will we get a shot of over 150 yrds unless we shoot across a draw or canyon into a clear cut patch.....
Getting the sights adjusted is a priority,I thank you for the instruction !!
I'll let you know what happens next trip to the woods .... Thanks Again !! Papa Jack

[Don McDowell]

2f (70 weighed grains) is the powder you want.Take your pick either Goex of KIK, if you go with Scheutzen or Swiss then you need to drop the charge to 65 grs as those powders are finer grained than Goex so are more similar to goex 3f.Also adding a .030 fiber wad between the bullet and powder will make life more gooder.
For a pure hunting bullet that will also transfer over to target application, the 500 gr government bullet from Lyman, Saeco, or Buffalo Arms is the way to go.

[Papa Jack]

2f (70 weighed grains) is the powder you want.Take your pick either Goex of KIK, if you go with Scheutzen or Swiss then you need to drop the charge to 65 grs as those powders are finer grained than Goex so are more similar to goex 3f.Also adding a .030 fiber wad between the bullet and powder will make life more gooder.
For a pure hunting bullet that will also transfer over to target application, the 500 gr government bullet from Lyman, Saeco, or Buffalo Arms is the way to go.

Thank's Don, I looked at the Saeco molds, I realize they are good stuff, but kinda pricey. I was looking for a useable sub....
Just Hunting (Maybe ) and fun shooting....

I have a can of OLD Hodgdon 3F (Scotland) Can I use this powder in the 45-70 for a few sight in loads ????
I could cast up some of the LEE 500's that I have ( I know they are not acceptable here) but it's all I have except the Lee Hollow Base 405 grn....
I been scanning another forum, some guy is shooting a Pedersoli 45-70 and listed a "Long Range" loading using GOEX 3F and a 500 + grn bullet....
Thanks for the Advice !! "Papa Jack"

[Don McDowell]

Yes that Hogdons powder is just the old Curtis and Harvey that Hogdon imported and repacked, so 65 grs ought to be about right. 3f will foul harder and faster than 2f, so you'll want to be on the stick with the blowtube or wiping rod.
If that 500 gr lee bullet you have is the 3r it will carry enough lube and shoot alright to about 400 yds beyond that it'll get a little dicey if it's windy. You could also use a lube cookie under a smokeless design bullet and get by.
But there's not many better greaser hunting bullets than that old government bullet.

[gandydancer]

Just for fun plinking & no fuss no mess I use a 405 lead cast bullet 5744 powder28.5 grains for 1375 FPS and move it back and forth and find what you like. get it working and shooting good and then go to BLACKPOWDER I said BLACKPOWDER. WORK WITH THE RIFLE. find out what it likes and works for you. the guys here will help you all they can. call C SHARPS or email them they will help also. good luck. GD


REMEMBER BLACKPOWDER THE REAL DEAL.

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[Chill Wills]

Is this the Lee bullet you have? If so it will work to get you going and it does carry enough lube. I will admit it is not a great design but not bad if you own it now and want to see your rifle shoot groups. This bullet is up to the task.

You have available resources that will meet your needs. Spend money after you know what you want. Until then you can use what you have and make a very good load for that rifle.

[Papa Jack]

Thanks for the Load Data.... I'll work on getting some new bullets cast Thurzday and see if I can put some loads together.
I may try some of the 5744 loads too, Just need something to get us on the paper. I hate running out of rounds when I get real close to dialing something in.....
It's storming pretty good here tonight so we may wait for better weather , I'll be ready.
YES, the 500 Lee I have is the 3R, They beat me to death in my handi-rifle.....LOL...
Thanks again Guys ! PJ

[Don McDowell]

23 grs of 5744 with that bullet (no crimp) should shoot pretty fair, if it's at or above .458 diameter. I don't think it would be much of a hunting bullet, but I know it'll shoot wowserwoo type groups out to 300.

[bigted]

cant resist an answer here...i was in your shoes just a short time ago and i know the overwhelming amount of advise and the dificulty of sifting thru it all to find a starting place so ill add this for a suggestion.

start with 1 good boolit...[lyman # 457125]...this is a middle road boolit that has done very well for itself and most that shoot it.....

then drive to the nearest town...not that far away if your on the west side of oregon...and purchase 2 pounds of goex 2 f powder...[black powder]...

now get hold of 100 remington or winchester cases and keep them with this rifle only...

i find that the cci 200 large rifle primers work well for starting out and maybe for the long haul as well

follow the rules for black powder loading to wit...allow the powder to continue to trickle into the case till it is going to be compressed into the case around 1/8th inch to 1/4 inch...top this with a heavy cardboard wad to protect the base of your boolit.....use your belling die for now to compress your powder charge and wad so it is down to the point that your boolit will not have to do the compressing...[remember here that ANY air gaps will not be tolerated...bad medicine] so meassure carefully the column before seating your boolit....spark it with the afore-mentioned cci #200 primers and go forth and have a ball.

as for shooting and getting fair to good results...i shoot 1 round with these blackpowder loads and then take the spit infested patch from your mouth and scrub the bore back n forth then out the front it goes...i follow this with a clean dry patch doing the same...up to the muzzle then back to the breech then out the front it goes as well...now load another and after the shot...repeat the scrubbing procedure.......the end results will make you grin and the final group for hunting will be there....im sure.

finally for the cleaning there is nothing better to cut the blackpowder fouling then plain ol warm to hot water. there is plenty of brews that are here and out there ...[ and i have my own as well] but the real solvent for the powder fouling that works best is WATER. leading is another question and there are plenty of brews for this as well...[such as good ol fasioned terpinetine of which there is an abundance where you live] ...follow your swabbing with a good oil for perserving and life is groovy.

im from the west side and i know that where ever you happen to be on the west side of the cascades ther is probably blackpowder in reach to you within 150 miles or less....as for the rest you should have what you need in your own yard prolly...the moulds will be handy from mid-usa...track of the wolf....buffalo arms... kinda on-line places and the mould n handles should come in a bit under 100.00 dollars or thereabouts for a lyman settup. sounds like you already have a furnace of some sort to melt n cast so this investment is already down for you.

finally i do know about your elk there on the west side and id want a 400 + grain boolit to shoot em with. got one one year that had reverted to a very tall spike and he weighed in at 760 gutted. so i know the size ability of those rosevelt elk and even the cows can tip a hefty scale at times. WATCH THE VINEY MAPLE ...ive had to crawl thru those groves on such steep ground that your nose rubs the ground when your climbing uphill.

have fun and dont get discouraged friend...it will work out and when it does just thumb yer nose at em when yer doin yer jig with happiness.

[Papa Jack]

Today I cast up more of the Lee 3R 500 boolits....Used the rest of my 30:1 alloy. The Boolits came out not too bad, I used a new Lyman Mini-Mag melter (had it for several years never opened the box) , so today I dedicated it to the Sharps so I don't have to empty my other pot .
I had cases ready to load, so I hand lubed the boolits with NASA and my fingers... I got out a Volume measure from by B/P box and set it for 65 grains Vol.... I loaded 3 rounds and got to thinkin about that measure..... So I took another look. Then I put on my glasses !!!!
I hate those things, all those little lines stamped in there, It looked like I had it set on 70 Grns Vol instead of 65...
So I adjusted it again and loaded a few more til I ran out of time today....
Maybe Friday I will try to shoot those I loaded today in my Handi -Rifle ( I don't have the Sharps here..) just to see if they go boom , if I blow up the Handi ,I'm out a couple hundred bucks, cheaper than the Sharps....
I loaded 65 grains Volumn 3FG....500 grain Lee 3R ( As Cast ) used a .025" card over the powder, compressed the powder with the bullet....(About 1/8" or a little more).
I have dedicated WW cases for B/P, and I use a 50/50 mix of Vinegar and Water to soften up the fouling before I clean. I usually squirt the bore and run some patches thru it before I drive home.
I have been to every gun shop in this county and other places I visit in this state and I have yet to find ANY shop that sells B/P.....I ask and they look at me like I'm some kind of Terrorist.....
I'll keep looking but I always get the same answer....NO ! No Black Powder ! Because the BATF requires a MAGAZINE to store it and they don't have a magazine....
I;ll keep you guys informed !! Thanks for the Help ! "PJ"

[Papa Jack]

Big Ted, Thanks for your Help !
I killed a nice bull Elk about 26 years ago.....It was a 3 point ( Forked horns with eye guards) I shot that bull with a borrowed .338 Min Mag. at about .....40 ft. Two bulls standing side by side, the BIG bull behind the smaller one on my side. The big bull had a rack that laid back to his hind quarters ! I took the shot at the smaller Bull as I couldn't shoot the bigger one.... I made a lung shot, he died in his tracks, the big bull turned and ran up the hill behind me. Later as I was taking the hide off the big bull came back down the trail on the run like a freight train !! Ran right past me not 20 ft away....
That bull I shot was about 150 ft from the truck !! A nice mossy trail to pack him out, slightly down hill.
I had it butcherd and boned out , I got 386 lbs of meat no bones... So tender you could cut it with a fork.
All my friends said I'd never get that lucky again.....I guess they were right so far I haven't taken another shot at a bull......Been close but that don't count. I do love to chase em around ..... "PJ":drinks:

[405]

I hear ya. It's frustrating when you have the gun that should shoot well, everyone around is showing targets that they shoot with that same gun and your results leave you scratching your head!

That Lee bullet looks good to the eye BUT I tried a very similar Lyman bullet... over and over. Looks can be deceiving. I kept thinking long range ballistics trying to make a square peg fit in a round hole. Never got the bullet to shoot for beans!

I went back to basics, forgot about the ballistic efficiency thing and started loading for my rifle instead of my brain. The only thing I can figure is while those aerodynamically slick looking designs may be slick they may have a design weakness. I think it is the high ratio between unsupported nose and supported shank. Compare the design of the long nose bullets with something like the RCBS 405 FN or 500 FN. Exactly the reverse- high ratio between the supported shank and the unsupported nose.

In your Sharps, I'd almost guarantee fine results, to gain confidence in the rifle, try a bullet like the RCBS 405 FN loaded on top of a mild charge of 5744 loaded to BP type velocity. Then try the same bullet with BP. Then maybe work up to the big 500 grainers. But, you may find the 400-425 types shooting so well no need to get into the bigger bullets.

[bigted]

pappa you gotta not do that anymore...its been so long since i had a mug full of elk roast that i nearly drowned my poor computer with the slobbers i got reading bout the best elk you coulda gotten...good choice with the small bull!!! our moose are the same here...id rather have a skinny 2 year old bull with an embarassing rack then a 80 inch rack and meat ya gotta hack with an ax to cut the gravey.

sure hope you can come to grips with your sharps and if ya ever get an elk with it we would sure like to see photos of it and naturally we lust after photos of your sharps as well.

good shooting to ya and i really dont think you will ever blow up any sound rifle when stoked with black powder...cant get enough powder [black powder that is] in a 45-70 case to harm it in any way.