45 acp & Herc 2400 don't mix?

[singleshot]

Ok. Here it is. I've seen several questions about 2400 in the 45 acp and nobody seems to have tried it. Answers have ranged from "you'll blow yourself up" to "you'll stick a bullet in your barrel."

Well, I've loaded up several "test" rounds with what should be starting loads of Herc 2400 with 260 grain cast boolits. When working up loads with unfamiliar components I've had the easiest time using loads measured by volume, then converting to weight, so that's what I've done.

I'm starting with .7 cc's of 2400, 260 grain cast swc 1.21 OAL, and a few different primers...3 cases of small rifle primer that I found at the range and wanted to experiment with.

Any thoughts, comments or questions before I test?

Oh, I should mention that AA#9 was the closest powder I could find to 2400 with published load data for a 260 grain boolit, so that's the load data I used as a basis for my starting loads.

I'll be testing the loads in my Laama Max-1 1911. It's seen plenty of abuse and about 10k rounds thru it, so I completely trust it. I expect about 750-800 fps, so we'll see...

[44MAG#1]

I've used it many times. No problem. Who said not too?

[singleshot]

Results? What load did you start with? What load do you use?

[Houndog]

I don't think you will blow up anything using 2400, I think it will prove VERY dirty because of low pressures and velocity won't be what it should. In my own testing I've got better results with powders between Unique on the slow side and Bullseye on the fast side. My own general purpose do anything load uses Winchester Super Target and a cast 200Gr boolet. (Lyman 452460) Accuracy has been good in several 45's I've used it in, and it's fed well in everything I've tried it in so far. It's a clean shooting load, accurate as I am, easy on the gun, and it's cheap! What's not to like?

[odfairfaxsub]

i would be one of the don;'t do it but what was your result...........teehee

[singleshot]

I don't think you will blow up anything using 2400, I think it will prove VERY dirty because of low pressures and velocity won't be what it should. In my own testing I've got better results with powders between Unique on the slow side and Bullseye on the fast side. My own general purpose do anything load uses Winchester Super Target and a cast 200Gr boolet. (Lyman 452460) Accuracy has been good in several 45's I've used it in, and it's fed well in everything I've tried it in so far. It's a clean shooting load, accurate as I am, easy on the gun, and it's cheap! What's not to like?

I'd never try something as slow as 2400 with a 200 gr boolit, sheesh. That's why I'm loading up 260 grainers. The heavier the boolit for caliber, the slower powder you will need. At "some" boolit weight, 2400 would be ideal. Not sure what that weight is, which is why I'm posting and testing. :) Since there is published load data for AA#9 and 260 grain cast, I'm guessing that's "in the ballpark."

[44MAG#1]

I started with 10 gr using a Magma Eng. 250 gr RNFP that cast at 255. using Win cases and Fed 150 primers. I stopped at 11.5 gr. 11 is enough. Vel was fairly consistant. Vel was in the high 800's. Don't have my book but if you start at 10 gr you will be more than safe. I am very careful looking at pressure signs and that doesn't mean looking at primer flatning either.
My loads weren't as hot as Buffalo Bore +p with the same bullet though.
Also I have a 22 pound spring in mine though

This is what I have done. I cannot guantee any results you may have. If you try these loads you do so at your own risk.

[btroj]

Why?
Why use 10 grof powder to do a job quite well done with 5 or 6 gr of a different powder?

To me it isn't as much a safety thing as much as a why thing. I tend to like powders that use a reasonable charge weight for the desired result.

Just because is never a very good reason to me. If you chose to see what can or can't be done, go for it.

[jonk]

As a point of clarification, are you actually using an old can of Hercules 2400 or are you using current Alliant 2400?

[Char-Gar]

I would not do that, but you need to do what you want to do. I don't think you will be happy with the results.

[Rocky Raab]

Considering that the 45 ACP was designed to use Bullseye, I'd think that 2400 would be a rather ludicrous choice. As mentioned, you will certainly see very dirty and incomplete burning, with unburnt flakes in your action. Velocity will be low.

Adding small RIFLE primers to the mix makes me question whether you really have any idea of what you're doing. I'm sorry if you take that badly, but if causes you to re-think this ill-conceived experiment, that's my purpose.

[405]

So I'll jump on too- so one or two questioning posts don't get lost in the wilderness. Since the 45 ACP is one of the HIGHEST expansion ratio cartridges around, using something like 2400 in a 45 ACP semi auto handgun doesn't make a lot of sense. Using CCs as a common reference for charges is another huh?. The last and maybe biggest, huh?, would be trying to use small rifle primers in a semi auto handgun. That is asking for trouble. Seriously, get a couple of good reloading manuals and read them! The devil is in the details with reloading and shooting.

The only thing I can think of, because of the use of CCs terminology and the thoughts of a slower powder like 2400, you may be using some Lee data. I know that Lee references some slower powders for their heavy bullet loads in the 45 ACP like Accurate # 9 which is similar to 2400.

[machinisttx]

Call Sierra or Hodgdon and ask. I burn more 2400 than anything else, but to be perfectly honest, .45 ACP is not a cartridge that I would even consider using it in. It just won't burn well enough at the lower pressures.

[44MAG#1]

New Alliant 2400. If we all did everything that made sense we all more than likely be in a better position in life that what we all are.
Lets not pick this subject to death.
I have a quantity of 2400 so I worked up some loads with it and used some of it. My powder, my money.
I use Bullseye mostly along with Unique and Power Pistol also.
That should be more in line with the thinking of the "average Joe".

[Rocky Raab]

Goodness knows I have no quibble with honest, sensible experimentation. But just because one can dream something up does not make it practical or prudent. Some things "don't make sense" for good reasons.

[44MAG#1]

Another thing is 2400 was not near as "dirty" as I would have thought. At 10 gr it was but not hovering around 11gr working up .2 gr at a time.

[btroj]

Engaging in potentially risky behavior is not a sign of being cool, it is a sign of immaturity. That has no place in reloading in my opinion.

I hope you don't get hurt but I won't shed a tear if you do.

[44MAG#1]

Thank you I am sure singleshot and I really appreciate the thought. At one time Accurate Arms had #9 listed as a 45 ACP powder. Similar burn rate as A2400. I have also tried H110 in the 45 ACP at the recommendation of Veral Smith of LBT molds too.
Did not like it though. #9 and A2400 will do just as well.

[USSR]

...2400 would be a rather ludicrous choice. As mentioned, you will certainly see very dirty and incomplete burning, with unburnt flakes in your action. Velocity will be low.

Adding small RIFLE primers to the mix makes me question whether you really have any idea of what you're doing.

+1. Just an all around dumb idea.

Don

[singleshot]

44MAG#1,

Thanks for the info. Obviously, you're the only one here with the EXPERIENCE I seek. Not just ridiculous speculation. I'll test my loads this weekend and report back with results, although, I've been reloading long enough that I'm pretty confident of my results ahead of time. Another obvious point others didn't catch and just wanted to be negative on, I'm testing 260 grain boolits which contradicts the idea of using fast powders. 'Nuff said.

[44MAG#1]

Remember when testing "out of the box ammo data" you are on your own. I have done it off anfdon for years. I still favor right now Alliant Power Pistol even with the Speer 260 gr jacketed hollow points and the 250 gr Magma Eng bullet.
2400 will be okay. Surely not the best powder or the most efficient but it will still do fairly well.
Start at 10 gr and go up 2/10's grain at a time.

[canyon-ghost]

The only thing I'd worry much about is the amount of 2400 it would take to make 45 acp work. I use 2400 in everything from 32-20 to 41 magnum, I like it. Even though, it takes up some space in a brass case, just a little bit bulky.

Experimentation is a good thing sometimes.

[parisite]

18gr is your sweet spot for best performance with 2400 with a 260gr bullet.


Ignorance can be cured, stupidity can't.

[singleshot]

18gr is your sweet spot for best performance with 2400 with a 260gr bullet.


Ignorance can be cured, stupidity can't.

Are we talking about the same case? 45 acp only has a case capacity of just under 1cc of anything. If you put 13 grains of 2400 in a case (just under 1cc), there would be no room left for the boolit. Or is that your point? Are you saying you can't get enough 2400 in a case to get to the best performance?

I'm confused.

At any rate, I was overcome by events this weekend to get on with my testing. Hopefully this weekend will be kinder, and gentler to me.:smile:

[Alan]

Are we talking about the same case? 45 acp only has a case capacity of just under 1cc of anything. If you put 13 grains of 2400 in a case (just under 1cc), there would be no room left for the boolit. Or is that your point? Are you saying you can't get enough 2400 in a case to get to the best performance?

I'm confused.

At any rate, I was overcome by events this weekend to get on with my testing. Hopefully this weekend will be kinder, and gentler to me.:smile:

That has GOT to be referring to .45 Colt. Using 2400 in .45 ACP, it may burn dirty, it may not function the gun, but as long as you don't compress it, you probably won't run into pressure problems.

If you want to use a slow powder, Blue Dot shoots ok, and beats out EVERYTHING else for velocity w/ standard 230gr bullets at standard pressure for velocity, according to Lyman.

The thing w/ slow powders is that they PUSH. In a gas gun, it can lead to high port pressures, and in recoil guns it can batter the frame. .45ACP was built around Bullseye - it does very well w/ Unique, but I think it is at it's best w/ the faster BE/Titegroup/W231 class of powders. Red Dot is my goto powder for boolits and accuracy in .45 and 9mm.

[Bwana]

Singleshot,
Every time someone brings up something"outside the box" it always brings out the hand wringers and the naysayers. At first it used to irritate me and now I just wonder what they're going to say. Kind of amusing to see into their small world.
In regards to your post I have worked a little bit with 305gr lead boolits in my 1911. It has a fully ramped Clark bbl and I used AA5 to get (gr/vel) (4/492)(4.5/531)(5/645)(5.5/690)6/738). That was using WLP primers and R-P brass. Anyway, I would like to recommend that you, and anyone else working with "off the books" 45 ACP loads, use R-P brass as I have found it to have the thickest web and best able to handle pressure. I have run loads from 2000 fps with 103gr to 1495 fps with 185gr (through my supported bbl) using R-P brass and it has done well. Let us know what you find in your work with the 2400 powder.

[44MAG#1]

I stated I have a 22 pound spring in my 1911 45 ACP.
Buffalo Bore has +P ammo that will exit the barrel of a 5 inch at 970 ish and a 4 inch Jerry Michelek 45 ACP S&W at 970 fps chronoed. This is with a 250 gr bullet.
Power Pistol by Allient is a powder to be given serious consideration. It gives good velocity and good burn.
If I had to chose a single powder for 45ACP and 45 Colt Power Pistol would be first with Bullseye second as of now.
But this thread was about A2400 not other powders.

[9.3X62AL]

Well, best of luck to Singleshot. This is outside my experience with a self-loader, but I've used older 2400 with 250-260 grain boolits (and bullets) in a S&W Model 25-2 in the past. Elmer Keith was alive at the time, and I think an article he published inspired the venture. I can't recall the powder weights, but these were put up in Auto-Rim brass (R-P) and shot all right. Recoil was healthy, accuracy was acceptable, but no chronograph back then.

[leadman]

The reference to the Accurate Arms loading data reminded me of the following. When Western powders bought Accurate shortly after they released a memo to not use any data from the Previous loading manuals published by Accurate. They had found many problems with the load data.
This could be why there is no #9 data now.

[44MAG#1]

We don't know if the inaccuracies were with #9. That would be an assumption. Many loading companies have pared or trimmed their data. Look at speer many powders they used in earlier books are not in newer books. Does that mean that the older data is kaput? Or does it mean that heyr trimmed data because of space, some powders are not made now or maybe some other reason.
Do we really know the reason or are we just assumning?

[Alan in Vermont]

Considering that the 45 ACP was designed to use Bullseye,

I don't have a dog in this scuffle but I tend to doubt that Bullseye was around when the 45 ACP was designed.

[Alan in Vermont]

I don't have a dog in this scuffle but I tend to doubt that Bullseye was around when the 45 ACP was designed.

Rocky I owe you an apology. AFTER I ran off at the fingers I did some research and found that Bullseye does indeed predate the 45 ACP. It was introduced in 1898.

[35remington]

Alan, that's backward. The 45 ACP wasn't around when Bullseye was designed, as it dates before the turn of the century, predating the 45 ACP. (On edit; Alan corrected himself right before I printed this post).

The slower powders do not tend to "batter" a recoil operated pistol like the 1911 45 ACP any more so than a faster powder that obtains the same velocity, assuming that pressures are within normal levels. Reason being the slide receives its impulse to drive it to the rear while the bullet is still in the barrel. Regardless of powder type, the pressure driving the bullet drops to zero as soon as the bullet exits the muzzle.

The barrel cannot and will not unlock from the slide until bullet exit has occurred. So residual pressure, whether it be a slow or fast powder, is the same.

The determining factor in whether a particular load is "battering" the slide and frame is how fast it is going out the muzzle. Momentum forward is momentum backward, and that's what the moving force to the slide is obtained.

The problem with 2400 in 45 ACP cases is that when the space below the bullet (230 grain) is completely filled, in the vicinity of 13 grains, velocity is the same or less than any number of faster powders. It's difficult to obtain a whole lot more than 900 fps with it using a 230 RN. While this exceeds factory ball velocity, a number of fast powders can beat that velocity.

I've found better use for 2400 when the bullets are heavier than 230 grains and when used in a revolver; then 2400 has a bit of a niche, but it's very small and limited. With common 45 ACP bullet weights used in autoloading pistols there is nothing 2400 can do that the faster powders like Unique, Universal, Herco, and Power Pistol or Longshot cannot do better.

[singleshot]

Thanks for the additional input guys! I started using hs-6 in 45 acp with heavy boolits and moved to 800x. So far, I've not used a powder that gave me more velocity than 800x, but I have a lot of 2400 so I figured it was worth the experiment. Should be able to get out and test tomorrow am, so will post results.

[lead chucker]

I have a ruger Blackhawks convertible with a 45 acp cylinder it can handle more pressure than say a 1911 so I would like to know you're results. I love 2400 and use it a lot especially in my 44 mag.

[35remington]

Lead chucker, look up data for 2400 in the 45 Auto Rim posts. What will occur in the Auto Rim case will also occur in the ACP case. 13 grains of 2400 is the cat's pajamas for the 250 grain bullet weights, but it is somewhat inferior to the faster powders with the lighter bullet types. As in higher extreme spreads and no more or lesser velocity.

Also look up the heavy bullet article for 45's by Beagle in castpics.net "articles by members." He uses the faster powders in the same revolver as yours.

[Char-Gar]

18gr is your sweet spot for best performance with 2400 with a 260gr bullet.


Ignorance can be cured, stupidity can't.

This is a good example of why taking load data off the Internet is a bad idea. This guy was not paying attention to the thread. Somebody else not paying attention will be confused to say the least, and could head down a bad path.

[44MAG#1]

Here are two posts I mad above stating that or (alluding to) that 2400 isn't the most efficent powder for the 45 ACP.
Of course do we do everything that makes sense in our lives? More than likey no we don't.
I don't recall the OP asking anything about efficent powders as I assume (there is that word again) he knows that 2400 won't be efficent. I would hope he does.

"Remember when testing "out of the box ammo data" you are on your own. I have done it off anfdon for years. I still favor right now Alliant Power Pistol even with the Speer 260 gr jacketed hollow points and the 250 gr Magma Eng bullet.
2400 will be okay. Surely not the best powder or the most efficient but it will still do fairly well.
Start at 10 gr and go up 2/10's grain at a time."

"I stated I have a 22 pound spring in my 1911 45 ACP.
Buffalo Bore has +P ammo that will exit the barrel of a 5 inch at 970 ish and a 4 inch Jerry Michelek 45 ACP S&W at 970 fps chronoed. This is with a 250 gr bullet.
Power Pistol by Allient is a powder to be given serious consideration. It gives good velocity and good burn.
If I had to chose a single powder for 45ACP and 45 Colt Power Pistol would be first with Bullseye second as of now.
But this thread was about A2400 not other powders."

[singleshot]

Finally made it to the range today! 9.4 grains (.7cc) with small rifle primers performed almost identically to the same charge with LPPs: fairly clean, accurate, with slight muzzle flash. The 10.7 (.8cc) loads with LPPs performed better: clean, recoil similar to my 8 gr HS-6 loads with the same boolit, but with about a softball-sized muzzle flash. No leading in any loads.

I'm going to continue to work up loads slowly to see where things begin to top out, or if I run out of case capacity first.

I don't know what the differences are between Alliant 2400 and Herc 2400, but this test has been with Herc 2400.

So far, so good!

[35remington]

"I stated I have a 22 pound spring in my 1911 45 ACP."

Please consider taking it out. You're going to damage your pistol.

Try a standard spring and a small radius stop instead for less battering of the gun from the slide impact on the frame and on the barrel's lug feet on the slide stop pin.

[singleshot]

This is a good example of why taking load data off the Internet is a bad idea. This guy was not paying attention to the thread. Somebody else not paying attention will be confused to say the least, and could head down a bad path.

Agree will all. The silver lining in this cloud is the first indicator of somebody using this info will be powder running over the top and everywhere. #2 clue (if that didn't do it) is the inability to seat a bullet with powder heaped over the brim. If those factors don't clue somebody in, they're going to blow themselves up eventually anyway.:roll:

[44MAG#1]

"I stated I have a 22 pound spring in my 1911 45 ACP."

Please consider taking it out. You're going to damage your pistol."

The reason I have a 22 pound spring in my gun is I was running a 255 at roughly 950 fps.
I don't know about you but with the slide speed going rearward with a load like that it seems to me the battering of the frame would be worse with a weaker 16 pound spring than the battering received by a 22 pound spring battering the frame as the slide going forward into battery would.
Until someone can concince me otherwise I will stick to a 22 pound spring. Besides tim sundles recommends a heavier recoil spring with loads like that.

[Char-Gar]

I for one won't try and convince not to use 255 grain bullets and a 22 lb. spring although I think both are a bad idea.

My old gunsmith/mentor in all things "gunny" when I was a kid once told me when talking about loading a 1911A1 with heavier bullets and loads..."If you want to drive a bigger nail, get a bigger hammer.". He was right, so I bought a Colt New Service in 45 Colt to drive the bigger nails. For a number of reasons, it was and is good advise.

[44MAG#1]

"I for one won't try and convince not to use 255 grain bullets and a 22 lb. spring although I think both are a bad idea."

I am sure it is probabaly a bad idea. I never intended to shoot many of these rounds. It was an experiment. The loads I used were very close to Buffalo Bores with a 250 at 970 which I am sure is a bad idea too.

..."If you want to drive a bigger nail, get a bigger hammer.".

I have several bigger hammers. Much bigger hammers at that. I wanted to experiment with the 45 ACP in a 1911 platform. My bigger hammers are not that type of launch platform.
If a few rounds with my 255@950 will hurt the gun than it probably is not much good to begin with.
I realize that loads like that are not good on the longevity of the gun and never indicated they are.
I hope I have cleared that up.

[35remington]

Let me convince you otherwise, because "otherwise" is better than what you are doing now in using a 22 lb. spring.

A lighter recoil spring and a small radius stop give equal to better prevention against the frame impact of the slide going rearward, and superior prevention to damage from the slide going forward. Works well with 10mm, etc. in the more powerful calibers.

950 fps with a deeply seated 255 isn't really advisable anyway. No matter what spring you've got, but at least you're not shooting it that often. My suggestions will result in a better setup for this infrequent use, and will still function with standard loads without compromising anything.

The 1911 was designed to take slide/frame impact in the area of the VIS and recoil spring guide rod. Concern about that area is relatively overblown. What it wasn't designed to do is take impact on the tiny barrel lug feet, nor the relatively small cross sectional area of the slide stop pin and its hole in the receiver.

A heavier spring also increases the tendency of the gun to malfunction. There is no reason to install a 22 lb. spring in this enlightened age of the 1911. The gun is run more properly when it is set up as I've suggested.

Sundles sells bullets. He doesn't know 1911's. Just because he recommended it does not mean it is the right way to do things.

[quasi]

one thing is for sure, you can never double charge a .45 acp using 2400.

[44MAG#1]

Well I may be doing it wrong but as I said if the gun is damaged by no more shooting as I do with it than it is what it is.
I am not doubting you at all.
I will take heed to your words of wisdom and will absorb them deeply.
Thanks for your kindness.
PS: Just for the record how do you know what Sundles knows. Do you know him personally? I don't know him.
You may very well be correct. But if one doesn't know him it may be premature to assume he knows nothing about which he speaks of.