Lead vs FMJ... Reloads vs Store ammo for fighting?

[Karen]

My pistol likes FMJ more than lead. I want to buy a mold for round nose 230 grain. But lead sometimes sticks on the ramp. How do I fix this?

I have taken several classes and they all say to use store ammo for fighting murderers/rapists blah. But I can reload fmj and they work fine. Much cheaper. And I want to start making hundreds of my own. They said for legal reasons and for safety reasons, I should always buy ammo. So I won't get sued or arrested for having home made bullets. That sounds ridiculous because I can buy very powerful 45 ammo with hollow points. So why should I get arrested for having lead bullets? Makes no sense to me. Please explain.

[mooman76]

The use only store bought ammo is a myth someone started. I'm not saying it can't happen but there has never been a documented case. A couple things you can do for the feed ramp is to polish it and you can also water drop your bullets hot from the mould. They will come out harder and slicker. No reason you shouldn't be able to (with some load work) get you lead to shoot as good as jacketed ammo or at least real close.

[Duckdog]

I read somewhere that it really doesn't matter if you reload lead or FMJ. You'll be under scrutiny regardless. In my state, they just passed a castle doctrine to protect the shooter in your home or car. Some people make a big deal out of nothing. You can buy lead ammo, so there is no difference. I'll continue to carry with what I cast and load.

[Karen]

Yes, it does sound like a myth. But instructors like saying that.
Do I need to pay a gunsmith to make the ramp angle change?

Oh, my pistol is 1911 Kimber ultra carry II

[454gene]

Karen the feed ramp only needs polished, little to no material removed. I'm sure there are some good articles in the gunsmithing section.
With a little elbow grease this job is easily done.

[AndyC]

My pistol likes FMJ more than lead. I want to buy a mold for round nose 230 grain. But lead sometimes sticks on the ramp. How do I fix this?
There are typically plenty of fine horizontal machine-marks running across the frame feedramp - polish these out by using a dowel and some fine paper.

Now, a mirror shine is nice but not necessary - as long as you flatten down those marks, you should be good.

A few words of warning:

1. Do NOT change the feedramp angle - you're polishing it, not making major changes.
2. Do NOT round off or change the sharp angle at the top of the feedramp where it breaks over to the horizontal plane.
3. Try not to use a Dremel unless you know exactly what you're doing.

As for the "no reloads" wisdom - well, there was one recorded incident. A wife died from a gunshot wound, the husband claimed she committed suicide - but because there were minimal powder-burns, it looked like she was shot from further than contact-distance, indicating murder. However, the husband's defense was that the gun was loaded with light handloaded ammo (hence minimum powder-burns) - and it was impossible to recreate the effects distance-wise of some unknown powder charge. I believe the guy went through 3 trials over a number of years before finally being sent to prison.

The bottom line in that case was not that handloads are bad per se, but that their use could cast doubt on a person's innocence in certain circumstances.

Edit - found it: Handloads for self-defense: The Daniel Bias case (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_181_30/ai_n26806104/)

[Karen]

What number sandpaper?

[AndyC]

Karen, I start with 600 and then go up to 800 then 1000 grit, depending on how much I want it to shine.

You'll be polishing up and down the ramp (vertically).

[garym1a2]

My Kimber 1911 TLE/RL does fine with my 200 grain SWC. If I check rounds thru the barrel on setup it also runs 100% good with Wilson mags.

Some guns don't like Wilson mags with certain types of boolits.

What I like about cast boolits its it affords me the chance to practice my skill and shoot USPSA matches. Once you run 5K or more thru the gun you will get the skill to properly place rounds will you want them and I rather have the skill with the gun than have the ultra bullet. .My cast boolit is not the strongest or most powerful round but it has a high probality of hitting its target.

I would try different mags before sending it to a custom gunsmith. The polish job sounds reasonable also.



Yes, it does sound like a myth. But instructors like saying that.
Do I need to pay a gunsmith to make the ramp angle change?

Oh, my pistol is 1911 Kimber ultra carry II

[Karen]

I would try different mags before sending it to a custom gunsmith. The polish job sounds reasonable also.[/QUOTE]



Mags are perfect. I use only stainless steel Kimber and Colt.

[Karen]

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/bullet-casting/mould-details.php?entryID=29

I wanted 230 grains but Lyman only has 220. hmmm

[35remington]

Pertaining to the self defense shooting:

"and it was impossible to recreate the effects distance-wise of some unknown powder charge."

I wonder why it was impossible to duplicate? Simply load his claimed charge and have at it.

Karen:

Let me be the first to suggest that "sticking on the feed ramp" nearly 100 percent of the time has absolutely nothing to do with how "polished" the feed ramp is.

This is the single most oversold fix ever suggested for a 1911.

Most problems involving the "feed ramp" involve the overall length of the cartridge (whether the cartridge is loaded to the proper overall length) the timing with which the magazine releases that cartridge, a spring issue with the magazine, a lack of proper taper crimp, insufficient barrel ramp/frame ramp gap, or an issue with the extractor.

Leave the frame's feed ramp alone for now. Please. It is very doubtful any roughness is the cause of your issues.

Describe, in considerable detail, exactly how the round hangs up. Exactly.

Rim under extractor? Breech nearly open or closed? Nosedive? Bullet against top of chamber? What bullet are you using? What overall length?

Please don't polish anything until you get this run down more specifically. Lead bullets of the proper shape, loaded correctly, are very reliable.

[Karen]

But it's only lead bullets that have a problem.

[AndyC]

Pertaining to the self defense shooting:

"and it was impossible to recreate the effects distance-wise of some unknown powder charge."

I wonder why it was impossible to duplicate? Simply load his claimed charge and have at it.
They did - problem was, it wasn't a consistent charge in each cartridge. Read the link I posted.

[leadedguy]

my 1911 had the same problem a quick polishing and now it is fed a steady diet of homemade 230 lead round nose boolits with great accuracy

[Pb2au]

I am currently having great success in my Kimber Compact with Lee's 230 truncated cone mold. Karen this might be an avenue to pursue.

[leadchunker]

No need to get scared. Feed problems have specific causes. Once clearly identified the problem can be eliminated, hopefully.

[35remington]

Andy, sounds like the shooting was already questionable. If the charges were all the same, would that have decided the issue in his favor, for certain? If so, that doesn't necessarily decide the issue for or against a handload being used. It just suggests he was a careless handloader that did questionable things in a shooting.

Karen, it's also how you load those lead bullets, and how they deviate from the FMJ you are using.

Please be specific.....which bullets are they? What style? What overall length are they loaded to?

Very, very, very few 1911's leave the factory with insufficient feedramp polish such that it causes a problem. A Kimber is very unlikely to be shipped with a rough feedramp.

Is this a short barrel 1911? These have issues related to slide travel, so telling us your barrel length would be helpful.

More specific information than "it jams" is needed. Exactly how does it jam?

The specific location of a cartridge in that jamming event often gives valuable clues as to the cause of the jam. Please tell us the location of the cartridge in the gun when it jams, whether the rim is under the extractor, and other pertinent details.

Simply advising you to "polish the feedramp" does you no favors, and your attempt to correct the issue may make it worse. The feedramp likely is not the issue.

Be extremely leery of the "polish the feedramp" advice.

[AndyC]

Andy, sounds like the shooting was already questionable. If the charges were all the same, would that have decided the issue in his favor, for certain? If so, that doesn't necessarily decide the issue for or against a handload being used. It just suggests he was a careless handloader that did questionable things in a shooting.
The case is what it is - I'm not going to argue it with you, I just posted it for reference value.

[Karen]

The jam occurs when I use round lead bullets only, ammo bought in store with round lead. The pistol works fine for a few shots. But there is lead on the ramp immdeiately. Then the lead bullet sticks on the ramp and the whole cartridge is perfectly straight. Level with the slide. The lead just gets stuck on the ramp. But even with lead on ramp, FMJ bullets go right in. So I think the spring is strong.

[35remington]

Andy, just giving you a "heads up" that the issue of handloads is debated here with great vigor. In other words, we're not sure it's all that cut and dried.

Karen, any further comments? What material is the frame of the pistol made of? Steel or aluminum?

[Karen]

3 inch barrel, aluminum or titanium frame
Kimber Ultra Carry II. I love it. But I dont like the sights. Just black metal

[35remington]

If I recall correctly, Ultra Carry II's have aluminum frames.

Aluminum, as you know, is soft. "Polishing" an aluminum frame ramp removes the hard anodizing on the frame, leaving a very soft aluminum under the hard coat. This soft aluminum under the anodizing is a very poor surface for the bullet to glance off of. It would deteriorate to the point of destruction in a short period of time after being "polished."

If you had polished this, even with sandpaper, the consequences could be disastrous.

Leave the feed ramp alone.....period. Never, ever modify a gun simply on someone's say so. Here you were being advised to modify a pistol when the posters never bothered to even find out what model of 1911 you had. I think I've made my point.

Short 1911's have reliability issues related to a great many things, most of which involves reduced slide travel. Now that we've made clear that polishing the ramp is disastrous, and is not an option unless you want to ruin your 1911, we are properly, and thankfully, resolved to look elsewhere.

I know I'm being demanding, but next time, pay attention to exactly how the pistol jams. Is the breechface hitting the feeding round in the extractor groove rather than the rim? How far is the nose of the bullet in the chamber?

Whose "lead bullet ammo" are you using, exactly? Is it a brand name or some shade tree reloading by someone you know?

Could you please post a picture of the exact ammo you are using, and take a picture of the position of the cartridge in the pistol when it jams?

In this case, a picture is worth more than 100,000 words. It will show us, more specifically, the exact problem. "Lead bullet ammo" is often loaded incorrectly, and a short 1911 demands everything be nearly perfect or issues arise. How hot is this lead bullet ammo loaded?

[btroj]

Must be a full moon. Two threads in one weekend with the "no reloads for defense ammo" thing.

When will that just go away.

Karen, listen to what 35 Rem has to say, he knows what he speaks of.

[Karen]

One box was orange with "police ammo" written on it. Another was maybe "Western"? These looked old, but were factory made.
FMJ I have tried - Remington, Winchester, "F&B"?. Even old military stuff works fine.

I don't mind paying a good gunsmith to fix the ramp. But I do mind having to wait months to get it back. Then I have to carry my .38

Hmm. I will call Kimber this week and sent it back to them to fix. I don't want to mess up the aluminum ramp.

Thanks for all the help gentlemen. I learn so much from this site. I have done many searches here, I just normally don't talk.

Happy New Year everyone. Peace & love. :)

[35remington]

I'm trying to recall, and failing to recollect, any recent big name factory ammo in 45 ACP that had lead bullets, rather than jacketed bullets, in it.

There's remanufactured, like Black Hills, but that's quality stuff. Here I'm thinking you have reloads, and there's no guarantee that the person reloading them knew what he was doing.

Do you have any remaining that you could show us a picture of?

How do you know that they were factory made? The very fact that they are lead roundnose ammo suggests that they were not.

Drop the idea of modifying the ramp for now. It's likely that is not the problem, and few gunsmiths are capable of re anodizing a frame ramp after it's been modified. That's a factory issue, and we do not yet know that you have an issue caused by the pistol. It very well could be the ammo.

A picture of the ammo, even the fired ammo, headstamps, and box, would be helpful.

[Karen]

sorry, no boxes left of lead ammo.

ok, one last thing, I am fine using home made cartridges for self defence right? No legal issues? I have 38 ammo that was made for me by my Dad.

Sending 1911 to Kimber tomorrow.

[35remington]

I don't yet think sending the pistol to Kimber is advisable, especially given you were likely using handloads that may have been poorly produced.

You're likely going to confuse them.

Is it possible you could try ammo from a better source, or a better handloader, before sending it off? You likely could be returning a pistol that has no issues to the factory.

[35remington]

If you planned on using home made ammo from this same source, it could very well be the worst choice you ever made.

The first and most important characteristic ammo of any type must have is to go "bang" every time, and given the information you've provided I'm not convinced you have a source available to you that is capable of producing ammo that works reliably.

Stick to real factory. Not lead bullet "factory loads" like you've found, until you do some serious reevaluation of where you're getting your ammo. Handloading ammo that might be used for self defense is not for amateurs or the ill informed.

[Karen]

Are you saying that no company makes 45 ammo with lead bullets?

[35remington]

Pretty much, yes. Lead roundnose bullets with no jacket are unknown from the big name manufacturers. I can't think of any.

Small handloading firms do that are "local." But not the big names in 45 ACP. Unless I miss my guess, you're shooting handloaded ammo.

And probably not handloaded very well. I cannot yet see blaming Kimber for that.

[Doble Troble]

Those little 1911s are right at the bleeding edge of reliable design. Browning didn't design the Officer Model.

If you've found that cast bullets aren't reliable, but jacketed are - you are ahead of the game as there are plenty of those guns that won't shoot a magazine of anything.

If you're carrying it for defense, load it with what ever has never shown a feeding problem.

If you're shooting it at the range, shoot it with whatever you want, as long as it will be reliable with what you really carry when you're done, and if shooting it with lead fouls it to the point of unreliability, MAKE SURE you clean it before carrying it again.

And shooting it A LOT is always helpful for reliability - you learn what it shoots reliably.

You've got a gun that most people don't shoot very much, and this is a problem. Any gun you're going to carry should be shot regularly and to the point of absolute confidence.

[runfiverun]

the orange is hmc as i recall [has a picture [outline in black] of a cop or soldier on the box] and is reloaded ammo just with a name brand on it.
i'd bet they [the boolits] are/were just too soft.
ultramax and others reload and resell also in factory like packaging.
if you are looking to cast your own the mold weight is just approximate. a 225 gr mold is more likely to weigh 232 grs as anything specific.
if you are buying to reload i'd bet that most commercial cast are harder than what you were getting and would work much better right off.
you can also change the seating depth so they will work for your situation.
you have gotten some good solid information from the others already.
the only other thing i would add is to try some plated if you are uncomfortable with the lead or re-working the gun.

[Karen]

Pretty much, yes. Lead roundnose bullets with no jacket are unknown from the big name manufacturers. I can't think of any.

Small handloading firms do that are "local." But not the big names in 45 ACP. Unless I miss my guess, you're shooting handloaded ammo.

And probably not handloaded very well. I cannot yet see blaming Kimber for that.

Interesting. I found a box, made by HSM Missoula, MT.
So this box is from a person making ammo at his home and not an actual factory? You are right, looking at the cases, they are mixed. Win, FC, WCC.

[KYCaster]

Lots of people with good intentions giving you conflicting advice. How do you know who to believe?

I'd say listen to 35Remington, he knows what he's talking about.

Did you buy the gun new or used? Is it possible that a previous owner worked on it?

If the gun is unaltered then Kimber will most likely tell you it's within specs and not to use reloads or lead bullets...right back where you started.

If you're not happy with the sights, why not send it to Kimber to have hi-viz sights installed and ask them to check the feeding problem while they have it?

I'll also suggest that you find a club in your area that shoots USPSA or IDPA competition. Go to a couple of their matches and you'll find people there with lots of experience reloading and diagnosing feeding problems.

Good luck
Jerry

[35remington]

Bingo.

Reloads. Just what I thought.

Still want to send it in to Kimber tomorrow?

What Doble said is truthful, as unkind as it may seem. The shorter the 1911, the greater the tendency to malfunction. But right now we can't definitely say it's the gun rather than the handloads.

When I see that someone's shooting handloads, and they claim they don't work, the first thing to suspect is the handloads. They can be made extremely well or very poorly. And with Mr. Murphy in the mix, somebody's incompetence in handloading is the way to bet.

[Karen]

I love my little 45, I bought her new. I waited a year before deciding what 45 to get. I didn't want a foreign made pistol, so no Springfield. I actually wanted a Colt. But I decided on the kimber. I have not changed a thing on her. I am a member of a range, so I shoot her once a week.

So I think FMJ only for defense. They always work. And I shoot them every week. I was hoping to same money on ammo. Oh well. I never imagined the Aluminum frame would be a problem. I love how light it is, but steel would have been better.

[AndyC]

I have to completely agree that if it's an aluminum frame, definitely don't try and polish it - 35remington is spot-on with regards to the danger of going through the anodizing to the soft metal below.

That said, the bottom line thus far is that that particular cartridge / lead bullet combination - for whatever reason - doesn't feed in your pistol. I wouldn't send it back to Kimber yet - try some other loads/bullets and see if you can find one that it does like, because I doubt that Kimber is going to want to modify the pistol specificially for handloaded ammo; most manufacturers advise against handloads as a means of CYA.

[35remington]

There's no blame associated with anything yet. Not for certain. This hasn't impugned the reliability of lead bullet ammo one iota, as I bet we can line up five hundred guys here who regularly shoot lead bullets through their 1911's with no issues whatsoever.

What should be learned from this is not all handloaded ammo is good, just as not all handloaded ammo is bad.

And next time, if it happens again, take a picture of the event and post it here. We will do our best to help.

Final hints:

Absolutely, positively NO shok-buffs in shortened 1911 pistols.
For frequent practice, roundnose ammo is kinder to frame ramps of the aluminum kind than hollowpoints with aggressive, sharp jacket edges.
Weak magazine springs are the number one cause of malfunctions in short 1911's, as it is common for the slide to outrun the magazine, producing a bolt over base failure to feed that looks very much like a "frame ramp" jam.

Frequent spring changes are necessary on short 1911's as they function on the razor's edge of reliability. To discover why, observe how far the breechface goes past the magazine well when it is drawn fully to the rear. Now you know why shortie 1911's must have strong magazine springs. If you have "extra capacity" flush fit seven round magazines, you may well be better advised to switch to six shot variants with a stronger spring if bolt over base misfeeding starts to occur.

You want to stack the odds in your favor that your pistol will function correctly. These things will help it do so.

FWIW, an all lead, roundnosed or SWC bullet will be the kindest of all to your aluminum frame ramp, even if hard anodized, and will be reliable if they are handloaded correctly. This is a point in favor of frequent practice with handloads using lead bullets.

But again, only if they're handloaded correctly!

[waksupi]

Interesting. I found a box, made by HSM Missoula, MT.
So this box is from a person making ammo at his home and not an actual factory? You are right, looking at the cases, there are mixed. Win, FC, FC.


If you have Hunters Shack ammo from Missoula, I think they burned down around 20-25 years ago. I don't now if they ever re-opened or not. They had a commercial type loading machine set up in the back of the shop, and reloaded for the MPD.

[Bullwolf]

Looks like HSM, or Hunters Shack ammo from Missoula is still around, or perhaps they set up a new shop. At any rate they have a website up.

http://store.thehuntingshack.com/themes/default/images/layout/no_image.gif

http://thehuntingshack.com/aboutus.htm

They seem to be a company that processes fired brass, and sells reloaded ammunition.

I would try a few of the different major manufacturer brands of 45ACP in your Kimber until you find one that works well in your gun. There's nothing wrong with a lead 45ACP boolit as long as it feeds reliably for you.

As others have said, magazines, springs, and even the length or shape of the boolit can all affect how well it will feed in a particular gun. It's all about finding the right combination that works for you.

I have a Colt Officers model 1991A1, (3.5 inch barrel) and the shorter slide is real fussy about what it will, and won't feed compared to my full size guns. I was lucky that my Officers model likes Federal Hydra shocks, so those became my factory carry rounds.

My Colt Officers model really doesn't like to feed short boolits and can be downright fussy about some factory ammo, but it will feed my cast lead round nose boolits just fine. I use a somewhat hard (1 part Lino, to 2 parts wheel weight alloy) 230 grain round nose boolit, and my overall length is a bit on the longer side at 1.265 - The same OAL as factory 45ACP hard ball.

- Bullwolf


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_187904f01765873e2c.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=3270) http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_187904f017263cae10.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=3267)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_187904f01727988215.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=3268) http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_187904f01728b0d8c0.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=3269)

[Grandpas50AE]

Yes, it does sound like a myth. But instructors like saying that.
Do I need to pay a gunsmith to make the ramp angle change?

Oh, my pistol is 1911 Kimber ultra carry II

Karen, my carry pistol is also a Kimber Ultra-carry II. I have shot plenty of the Laser-Cast 200 gr. LSWC in it seated at 1.245" overall length and have no problems with feeding or chambering. I cast the same boolit and it works just as well. They are very accurate, and out of the 3" barrel are running at 900 fps, so they will do the job for self defense if that is what you want to use them for. The nice thing is, they are also cheaper to make and shoot than purchased boolits, so you really don't have to go with FMJ or RN either one. My Ultra is original factory condition, no modifications. The key to shooting these SWC's is to find the right seating depth. Hope this helps.

And listen to 35remington, all his advice is spot-on. From the factory, it is rarely the pistol that is the problem - most of the time it is the particular load.

[Jammer Six]

Point one, smaller 1911s are not as reliable as government size. My range sells Kimbers, people seem to love the ultra carry. Shiny, shiny. Guess how I know they're not as reliable?

Point two, I've never seen a feed ramp that needed polishing. Ever.

Point three, I wouldn't bet that your magazines are perfect. Proper function on one type of ammo and jams on another type is indicative of magazine lip issues. * They might be new, but that doesn't really mean anything.

Point four, same as point three, proper function for handloaded rounds is a function of magazine lips. *

* Jerry Kuhnhausen, The Colt .45 Automatic, A Shop Manual, (McCall: Heritage-VSP Publications, 1990), 154-159.

[ColColt]

From all I recall reading, the boolit nose should never hit the feed ramp. Once stripped from the magazine, the throat is just an open door to have it "shoved in". If it's bouncing off the feed ramp it sound like more a magazine/spring problem...depending on what magazine you have(Wilson, CheckMate, SMC, etc and the type of follower.

I have an aluminum(Scandium as S&W calls it) framed 1911 and there is zero lead on the feed ramp. I use the H&G #68 style at a hardness of a bout what ww's are...BHN12 and have no feeding problems in three 1911's. In fact, they feed the SWC better than hollow points and for sure there should be no problem feeding round nosed boolits whether lead or jacketed.

[moarkman78]

Hey guys im new here but i also shoot a kimber with cast bullets with no problem. My pistal is a custome II and the only feeding ishues i have had ware contributed to bad mags. Im not a 1911 expert but i would look at the magazine lips and the seating depth of the bullets, from what i have seen with the 1911 thies are the two main causes of feeding ishues .

[35remington]

The 1911 was designed to have the bullet nose glance off the frame ramp. If the bullet does not, the reliability of the pistol is compromised. The original magazines allow this glance off the ramp while also reducing the angle of approach of the cartridge.

That's how it's supposed to run.

The barrel ramp is not the same as a feed ramp. It's a clearance, not a feed path for the bullet.

[mpmarty]

Karen quit guessing and wondering. Spend a few dollars and buy one each of Chip McCormick and one each of Les Baer magazines and see if that doesn't solve your problems. Kimber and Colt magazines have been made in China, Mexico, Pakistan and elsewhere in the past few years and they are known to be unreliable.

here's a link:

http://www.climags.com/products/1911-.45ACP-LES-BAER-8ROUND-MAGAZINE.html

[Russel Nash]

first, do no harm.

second, if you have to file, sand, scrape, hammer, mill, polish, peen, whatever to a gun part to get it to work, do it on an easily replaceable part that's cheap.

there are basically two types of frame cuts for 1911's. the para clark and nowlin/wilson :

http://www.38super.net/Extra%20Figures/feed-ramps.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/a1acp/DSC02863.jpg

If I was you, I would load up some dummy rounds, and load those in a mag, and cycle the gun by hand and carefully watch how the slide pushes the top round off the mag and up towards the "mouth" of the barrel.

It could be that the mag feed lips are too open and let go of the round too soon.

Or it could be the springs in the mags too. I have a 1911....had it for the longest time actually when it started jamming and somebody at a match goes, "Have you swapped out the mag springs?"

Huh?

You're supposed to do that?

I ordered in some that were made by Wolf. WOW! what a difference that made, and I was amazed how much shorter the old mag springs were compared to the new ones.

And the gun started working right after that.

[rupe01]

Just remembered I bought some Magtech lead RN .45ACP last year before i started casting my own, so they are still around in plain lead

[Karen]

[QUOTE=Russel Nash;1528301]first, do no harm.

second, if you have to file, sand, scrape, hammer, mill, polish, peen, whatever to a gun part to get it to work, do it on an easily replaceable part that's cheap.

there are basically two types of frame cuts for 1911's. the para clark and nowlin/wilson :

http://www.38super.net/Extra%20Figures/feed-ramps.jpg

OK, I found the problem and fixed it. My 45 has the conventional type of ramp. There is no ramp welded on the barrel itself, just a opening of the barrel. Sorry I don't know the proper names to use here.

There was a small piece of steel on the barrel that pointed up. I could not see it at first, until I put my finger in the barrel and it cut me. My uncle gave me a wet piece of black sandpaper and I rubbed the sharp point off of the barrel. Now it is smooth. I will try to post some pics later.

I went through my pistol box and found a mold. :smile::smile: Lee #452-228-1R
YAY :smile: I have only loaded .30 Carbine before, so this is new. I have the little plastic cups on a stick, you dip them in powder and pour it into the case. I have 4227 & 296 I used for carbine, And also old can of bullseye. So I will look them up in the Lyman guide. Thanks for all the help. :smile:

[Iron Mike Golf]

Karen,

When you start loading your cast loads, keep this in mind. An underpowered load can cause a nose-dive, too. What happens is the underpowered round fails to move the slide all the way back. It might move it far enough to get successful ejection, but the slide doesn't get a running start at stripping the next round in the magazine like it should.

My guess is that your remanufactured ammo would be fine in a full sized 1911, but is underpowered for a compact (which really needs every bit of slide travel). You can address that when you load your own ammo.

[Josh Smith]

Karen,

If you're serious about carrying this, I would highly recommend a steel ramp:

http://spinstage.http.internapcdn.net/Spinstage/userdocs/products/p_296000112_1.jpg

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=26868/Product/1911-AUTO-FEED-RAMP-INSERT

If you have typical split followers in your chosen magazines, they tend to follow the last round forward and ding up the aluminum feed ramp, eventually causing the problem you describe. Kimber usually uses split followers as does Colt.

For carry, please consider Wilson Combat or Tripp Research magazines. Chip McCormick modified with Tripp's upgrade kits will work also, as long as they drop free. (I've owned some that didn't they didn't mic to spec. All CMC mags were relegated to practice only.)

As for carrying handloads for defense:

YES, it has been brought up in court. I've studied the couple cases (defensive shootings) I'm aware of. In one, it was an issue for a couple days. In the other, it was a non-issue. Ultimately didn't effect the outcomes of the trials but did waste time.

I completely rebuilt a Rock Island Armory pistol into my defense pistol largely using MEU(SOC) specs. The pistol is in no way original. I kept the frame and slide because I like their hardness, and the barrel because it shot well, but everything else was chucked. I'm a lefty and ran through danged near all ambi safeties until I found one I liked, and cut the frame for the beavertail grip safety, put all the internals in using CNC parts, etc. You get the idea.

It is fast, accurate, and I'm good with it. Trigger pull is 4.5# and crisp, the grip safety isn't pinned but it's fitted for very easy deactivation, etc.

Point is, the pistol itself will have more of an effect in the outcome of a trial than will what I feed it. I made each mod with safety in mind, and can counter anything a lawyer might think up for it.

However, a prosecutor wanting a conviction badly enough will go to any lengths. My conclusion is that if I don't do anything blatantly negligent, all will probably end well if I was in the right.

Ammo I use and why:

For social occasions, I carry two Wilson Combat #47, seven-round mags. Eight in the pistol and one in the carrier.

I load with Federal Hydra-Shok because they like to clog when used against a thickly-clothed aggressor.

You're likely saying, "huh?" Yep, I want them to clog. You see, it's a .45acp. Great at stopping but it's not a penetrator. If it's going to be used in the Indiana winter, I want something that will act like ball and give me that much more penetration. That means something that will clog.

Against light clothing, say inside or during warmer months, it doesn't clog and gives expansion.

Good thing all around.

Now, out here in the country I keep a couple surplus mags filled with handloads. They are truncated cone tumble lube bullets, proprietary 230grn but actual 240grn, coated with my own graphite and copper suspension lube. This works better than anything I've found.

When I load these over 4.6 to 5.2 grains of BE or Win231 (charge depending on powder, of course), they are death on critters. They actually work better on raccoons than the Hydra-Shok, probably because of a longer dwell time due to slightly reduced velocity.

Just some thoughts and experience developed over several years of carrying this thing. I dove into the 1911 after trying many, many other handguns and finding them wanting. Found an old gunsmith gent, somewhat famous maybe regionally, and apprenticed for about a year.

I've come to believe in the superiority of this platform for most defensive needs.

But I digress.

I hope this helps!

Regards,

Josh

[Jammer Six]

YES, it has been brought up in court. I've studied the couple cases (defensive shootings) I'm aware of. In one, it was an issue for a couple days. In the other, it was a non-issue
May I have the legal citations, please?

[Josh Smith]

May I have the legal citations, please?

Give me a couple days to dig them up. It's been a couple years since I looked at them.

If you don't hear from me shoot me a PM and remind me, please! I'm relaxing today as life is getting ready to be busy again!

Regards,

Josh

[Jammer Six]

Okay, looking forward to it.

I'd relax, too, but I'm a Seahawks fan, and we're spending this week apoplectic with rage.

[sqlbullet]

I can help Joshua out with that link.

One of the best write up's (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2129976&postcount=140) I have seen is at the high road, where Joshua is also a member. It was written by Massad Ayoob.

I currently care "factory ammo" in my defense weapons. Buffalo Bore currently, although in the past I have carried Double Tap as well as Federal.

Some questions still nag me.

How can anyone tell, short of analytical comparison rounds from my gun with original factory ammo? I reload plenty of cases from Federal. Both the Buffalo Bore I currently carry and the Double Tap that preceded it is loaded in brass with a Starline headstamp and carries a generic 180 JHP. I have 2000 brand new Starline brass in my stores and could order up some JHP's in no time.

Clearly the argument is that the factory is an impartial third party, and ammo from the same lot should behave the same and therefore be valid for testing and evidence. I do not see why the same could not be said for handloading data and components. This would be a reason to stick with documented load data and components from major mfg's for defensive components.

Next, the applicability of these cases.

NH v. Kennedy - Most applicable. This case also shows that the argument that handloading is to get "more deadly ammunition" is defeated with a credible expert witness. We do not suggest that people arm themselves with under-powered rounds lest they be accused of selecting "more deadly weapons", although that argument has been made in court as well.

NJ V. Bias - The case itself is not applicable at all.

First, allegedly not a defensive shooting.

Second, while this was the defendants defensive weapon, it was not on his person. The wife could have reloaded the weapon with non-factory ammo before attempting suicide. In fact, the way the write up reads it sounds as if the wife loaded the weapon for the attempt. This could only be countered by not possessing reloaded ammo.

Third, NJ. Nuff said, and glad I don't live there. Apologies to any from the Garden State, but your gun laws and use of force standards are more than a little nuts IMHO. I won't go there armed, so unless I have to go for work, I won't go there.

Despite that this case generates the most compelling arguments for the use of factory ammo, namely that factory ammo comes from an impartial third party with ammo and mfg records suitable for evidential needs. But, again these arguments come from the anti-gun climate of New Jersey.

This does not address the possibility of a light load in factory ammo that made it thru QC. Had that been the case for Mr. Bias he probably would have been convicted of murder, and almost certain aggravated manslaughter if the murder charge had been tossed.

TN v. Barnes - Applicable, but a null result.

The core issue here according to Mr Ayoob is that the evidence was not properly handled. Once that was straightened out, an acquittal was one. However, this case could have just as easily been the prosecution failing to distinguish between lots of ammo, rather than between factory and handloaded ammo. Since the real problem was a lack of education by the prosecution about ammunition, it should be pointed out that it is only Mr Ayoob's formidable opinion that handloads were at issue here.

The final case doesn't include handloaded ammo and is apparently included as an illustration of something that doesn't occur. It illustrates again the value the rules of evidence do place on factory ammo that they do not afford handloaded ammo.

At the end of the day, the basic rule is you will be in for a truckload of unpleasantness if you ever have to defend yourself using a handgun. In some cases handloads may contribute to that unpleasantness. You have to determine for yourself where the balance lies.

[mpmarty]

And my carry ammo is factory "Taurus" 45acp. It is loaded in PMC cases with Hodgden powder and uses a Barnes solid copper flyin' ash tray of 185 grains.

[Bret4207]

As sql post shows- no convictions ever from handloads being used. Bias is as close as it comes and I still cannot understand why the evidence was allowed that was. In the end they convicted Bias based not on the handloads or gunshot residue but "...that he had pointed the gun at his wife and pulled the trigger, believing the hammer would fall on an empty chamber." (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_181_30/ai_n26806104/pg_2/?tag=content;col1)
Good Ol Mass fails to explain how that all happened, but it apparently did.

If you read through Ayoobs stuff, IMO at least, it comes across as a guy trying to justify his position. I enjoy his writing and other than his claims of being a street cop (he's not, never was) I have no real argument with him. But note that he ignores some important real word facts- even factory ammo changes from lot to lot. Auto loaders tend to throw brass and not recovering all the brass at a crime scene happens, a lot more than you'd be lead to believe actually. So if you fire and not all the brass is recovered then it's possible someone could say you had handloads mixed in with your factory stuff, isn't it? It's as real a possibility as the handloads thing coming up at all. And what if you get rounds from different lots mixed? Or what if you do get a squibb or overly hot round? Or what if you get a box like some years back did that had 49 HP's and 1 solid TC? What if you don't notice and that happens? What if, what if, what if?!!! If you add all the what if's up you're as likely to have problems with factory as handloads. Please note that I support that claim with Ayoobs own evidence that of all the shooting cases out there he could find only 3, 1 actually, that and anything to really do with handloads.

Of course the answer to all this is to hire Ayoob to be your expert witness I guess...

[idahoron]

Karen, I have been reloading for over 30 years. I have only been reloading for 45ACP for the last week. I can tell you as a new reloader to this cartridge it was intimidating for me. Seating depths are critical. Too far out and they won't work too far in and you can blow up your gun. I am not going to give you advice on reloading other than get a good powder scale. I am going to say read everything you can find about your mould your going to use. Make sure it pertains to the cases your going to use and powder. Read and reread several times then if you have a question ask first. You will start to see that some guys are experts at the 45 auto. I am not one. Since I have started to reload for it I am happy so far. Just do your homework and don't get in a big rush. Good Luck. Ron

[Jammer Six]

Thank you, I'll need to read the citation in that post.

[idahoron]

I would also comment about using reloads for self defense. If the situation has boiled down to me vs a two legged varmint The first and foremost thing on my mine is to protect me and my family. After the threat has been squelched, I doubt that reloading will be an issue.
If I have made the determination that i must use my gun to protect my family or home I will take the responsibility for using a reload to keep my family and home safe. I seriously don't think that will be the first question asked by the cops that are on the scene. But if they ask I will gladly give them the load data. Ron

[Jammer Six]

At first glance, there is only one potentially valid legal citation anywhere in that post.

I'm still looking for 142 N.J. 572, 667 A.2d 190, which is the only potentially valid legal citation in that post.

[MtGun44]

RE: Idahoron:

"too far in and you blow up your gun"????? I have no idea how you got this notion, but
it is very wrong.

IMO the .45 ACP is one of THE MOST forgiving rounds to load, ideal for the newbie.

Slightly too deep seating will NOT blow up the gun with anything remotely like a sane
load from a reloading manual. Too long and the round might not chamber. No harm unless
you load up a ton without checking a dummy round, and ANY cartridge in ANY gun will
do this same thing - - - well, there are a few 7x57s out there with such long throats that
you can pretty much use any LOA, but for about 90+% of the guns our there - too long and
it won't chanber. Pretty basic first step in reloading.

I have loaded in the area of 250,000 rounds of .45 ACP in the last 33 years. Down to only
around 6-7000 rounds in that caliber per year these days.

OH - and stay away from the McCormick mags for self defense purposes. IMO, if you are going to
use FMJ ammo - get Checkmate's "GI LIPS" mags.

Bill

[35remington]

Karen, this post really has legs, doesn't it?

FWIW:

No McCormick Power Mags or Shooting Stars with your aluminum frame gun. These ding the frame on the bottom of the aluminum frame's feed ramp on the last shot. Not good. The follower moves from inertia after the last shot is fired and strikes the frame.

Really, we don't need to overload you with information, but it's worth knowing the very short 1911's cannot tolerate weakly sprung magazines and their most common affliction is the slide outrunning the magazine. This is the bolt over base misfeed.

The breechface does not go very far past the magwell before it returns forward on the shortie 1911's, making this more likely.

Should this start to happen to you, go to the six shot magazine if your pistol has the reduced length grip with the Wolff +10% extra power spring, which is available aftermarket.

Colt magazines are currently made by Checkmate, which are high quality.

I'm sorry to say that a great deal of information on this thread is not well advised, considering your situation.

[Jammer Six]

142 N.J. 572, 667 A.2d 190 is Baird v. American Medical Optics.

It is an appeal of a case about an operation that inserted an interocular lens into Bairds left eye.

It has nothing to do with weapons or a shooting.

This is a link: http://lawlibrary.rutgers.edu/courts/supreme/a-103-97.opn.html

Mas Ayoob is famous for either not providing valid legal citations (note this example) or providing false citations. None of the rambling in the post on The High Road constituted a valid legal citation except this one, and this one had nothing to do with the case Ayoob claimed he was talking about.

If the case happened, in this world, (as opposed to Ayoobs) this is not a record of it.

He counts, for some reason, on the idea that no one will bother to actually follow up his citation. The most valuable thing I learned in college was how to track down and read citations.

As it is on point to this thread, that is, handloads vs. commercial ammo for carrying, I wish to point out that when asked for a legal citation, (and he has been asked, again and again, across the nation, since the nineties) Ayoob et al. has never provided a valid legal citation in which who loaded the ammunition was a factor in guilt, innocence or damages.

Karen, I would warn you against Mas Ayoob and the cult he has generated. His followers do not question what he says, but I say to you that he has no clothes.

Question everything.

Rogues, liars and buffoons are everywhere.

[Josh Smith]

Thank you, sqlbullet, and by extension Mas Ayoob. The Kennedy case is one which I read. The other two I sort of dismissed, though I read them years back. Not pertinent to handloads in self-defense IMO.

The other one was more recent and I have to remember exactly where to kick it up. When I say "recent" I mean about two years ago. That's when I decided to load with what I thought would work best for me and figured I'd work out the legal problems in court.

I never did say these led to convictions. In fact, I said they didn't. What I did say was that they complicated the issue and put more time (= money!) into the case than was needed.

I prefer to keep my money and keep things as simple as possible. In a lot of ways, I view modern forensics as a bad thing. I know it's just a tool, but that tool is misused, often with the backing of the government, and probably ruins more lives than illegal firearms ever will.

Regards,

Josh

[Karen]

[QUOTE=Joshua M. Smith;1528706]Karen,

If you're serious about carrying this, I would highly recommend a steel ramp:

http://spinstage.http.internapcdn.net/Spinstage/userdocs/products/p_296000112_1.jpg

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=26868/Product/1911-AUTO-FEED-RAMP-INSERT

Wouldn't adding a cap to the frame like this make the gun less reliable? Like if it came loose? I will look into this idea.

[Karen]

Karen, this post really has legs, doesn't it?

FWIW:

No McCormick Power Mags or Shooting Stars with your aluminum frame gun. These ding the frame on the bottom of the aluminum frame's feed ramp on the last shot. Not good. The follower moves from inertia after the last shot is fired and strikes the frame.

Really, we don't need to overload you with information, but it's worth knowing the very short 1911's cannot tolerate weakly sprung magazines and their most common affliction is the slide outrunning the magazine. This is the bolt over base misfeed.

The breechface does not go very far past the magwell before it returns forward on the shortie 1911's, making this more likely.

Should this start to happen to you, go to the six shot magazine if your pistol has the reduced length grip with the Wolff +10% extra power spring, which is available aftermarket.

Colt magazines are currently made by Checkmate, which are high quality.

I'm sorry to say that a great deal of information on this thread is not well advised, considering your situation.

So if the slide goes forward and doesn't grab another cartridge, after firing, then the magazine springs (or slide spring?) are too weak and need to be replaced?
I was given a box of magazines today by my uncle, some are shooting stars. I can't use those? How about if I buy plastic followers for them, would that help?

How about wolff and metalform magazines? I have lots of metalform now and one wolff. Will they cut the aluminum frame?

Thanks

[Josh Smith]

[QUOTE=Joshua M. Smith;1528706]Karen,

If you're serious about carrying this, I would highly recommend a steel ramp:

http://spinstage.http.internapcdn.net/Spinstage/userdocs/products/p_296000112_1.jpg

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=26868/Product/1911-AUTO-FEED-RAMP-INSERT

Wouldn't adding a cap to the frame like this make the gun less reliable? Like if it came loose? I will look into this idea.

It would make it more reliable.

I believe most of the reason this doesn't come as a factory option is because it would just cost too much. It's not a cap; it has to be machined into the frame and pinned.

The rough spots you're describing come from the wrong type of followers impacting the aluminum ramp.

Bad for aluminum ramp:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=161&pictureid=2355

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk146/Iowegan_photo/1911followers.jpg

Good for aluminum ramp:

http://www.impactguns.com/Data/Default/Images/uploads/wilson_combat/wilson_47_b.jpg

http://spinstage.http.internapcdn.net/Spinstage/userdocs/products/p_124070008_1.jpg

Different followers:

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b191/WabashShootist/Followerexamplesfor1911mags.jpg

The split followers, as well as many hollowpoint bullets, will gouge an aluminum feed ramp.

I would not carry an aluminum framed 1911 without a steel insert. As designed, the round is driven forward into the feedramp where it starts riding up and enters the barrel.

As soon as the magazine releases the round, the extractor takes control.

This is controlled-round feeding and is very reliable.

Unfortunately the stock magazines were designed for steel frames, and when the last round is pushed forward into the feed ramp, the follower kinda' follows. This is why you need either the insert I posted or stay with ball or flat points and a round-top, closed-front follower.

Regards,

Josh

[Grapeshot]

Deleted

[Karen]

So do I need to change out my magazines with plastic followers to protect the aluminum? Will that make the magazines more likely to jam now, because it's no longer factory issue?
I wonder why Kimber doesn't send a magazine like that with the pistol?

And if aluminum frames are this weak, why doesn't Kimber add a steel plate on the aluminum frame? Or only use steel frames? Kimbers are not inexpensive.

[Josh Smith]

Aluminum can only be surface hardened (anodized). Once you wear through that, it's problematic.

I do not know why Kimber sends standard mags. Most other manufacturers use closed-front followers. I thought Kimber made these as well.

It doesn't need to be plastic, but it does have to have a closed front. You might try Tripp Hybrid followers.

Honestly, though, I've tried Kimber mags and don't like them. They gave me malfunctions in an otherwise excellent pistol.

Aluminum framed 1911s are meant to be carried a lot and shot a little.

Regards,

Josh

[Russel Nash]

142 N.J. 572, 667 A.2d 190 is Baird v. American Medical Optics.

It is an appeal of a case about an operation that inserted an interocular lens into Bairds left eye.

It has nothing to do with weapons or a shooting.

This is a link: http://lawlibrary.rutgers.edu/courts/supreme/a-103-97.opn.html

Mas Ayoob is famous for either not providing valid legal citations (note this example) or providing false citations. None of the rambling in the post on The High Road constituted a valid legal citation except this one, and this one had nothing to do with the case Ayoob claimed he was talking about.

If the case happened, in this world, (as opposed to Ayoobs) this is not a record of it.

He counts, for some reason, on the idea that no one will bother to actually follow up his citation. The most valuable thing I learned in college was how to track down and read citations.

As it is on point to this thread, that is, handloads vs. commercial ammo for carrying, I wish to point out that when asked for a legal citation, (and he has been asked, again and again, across the nation, since the nineties) Ayoob et al. has never provided a valid legal citation in which who loaded the ammunition was a factor in guilt, innocence or damages.

Karen, I would warn you against Mas Ayoob and the cult he has generated. His followers do not question what he says, but I say to you that he has no clothes.

Question everything.

Rogues, liars and buffoons are everywhere.

100% in agreement.

I/we have be down this road before discussing Ayoob on this forum and his so called evidence for not using handloads for self-defense.

He is a gun writer. Like any other writers, he is trying to sell you something. This is not necessarily pointed at Ayoob, but I have had other internet run ins with gun writers. One gun writer was on a forum asking about a particular pistol match. All these people were chiming in with their thoughts about the match and then they started catching on. This guy was going to write an article about the match like he had been there and shot it himself. He was letting all the other forum members do the leg work for him.

If you're getting paid to write articles, the least you can do is actually go to the match.
:groner:

[Russel Nash]

Karen wrote:


So if the slide goes forward and doesn't grab another cartridge, after firing, then the magazine springs (or slide spring?) are too weak and need to be replaced?

well...hey...that depends.

Is the slide, when it is being fired traveling back far enough to pick up another round, the top round, off the ....well....top of the magazine?

If the slide is not traveling far enough, that could be for a number of reasons:

1. ammo is not powerful enough

2. the recoil spring is too heavy or too strong

3. the main spring (aka the hammer spring) is too heavy or too strong

4. too much friction between the frame and slide

5. limp wristing???

????

[Iron Mike Golf]

On what Russel said above, 1, 2, and 3 are about having your gun and ammo in tune with one another. You'll read ab out folks who swap recoil springs for target vs carry ammo.

I'd replace followers in the mags your uncle gave you. I'd want plastic skirts and followers that I can't tip forward while in the mags. I have not had issues with plastic engaging the slide stop.

Many writers and trainers have referred to aluminum frame guns as "shoot seldom, carry often". It's not a luxury all can afford.

[ColColt]

The 1911 was designed to have the bullet nose glance off the frame ramp. If the bullet does not, the reliability of the pistol is compromised. The original magazines allow this glance off the ramp while also reducing the angle of approach of the cartridge.

That's how it's supposed to run.

The barrel ramp is not the same as a feed ramp. It's a clearance, not a feed path for the bullet.

Thanks for clearing that up. I meant well but my fingers got ahead of my brain. I meant the barrel ramp as the boolit shouldn't touch it below the top corner, mostly.

Question about the preceding info about metal followers. I recently ordered two GI mags from Check Mate that have metal followers with the dimple . Are these a no-go for the Scandium framed SC1911SC? I have others by CM that are metal but have the skirt and I assume they're ok and won't damage the alloy feed ramp. I've only used the GI mags a couple times and haven't noticed any marks on the ramp.

http://www.checkmatemagazines.com/cart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=11&idproduct=27

[idahoron]

RE: Idahoron:

"too far in and you blow up your gun"????? I have no idea how you got this notion, but
it is very wrong.

IMO the .45 ACP is one of THE MOST forgiving rounds to load, ideal for the newbie.

Slightly too deep seating will NOT blow up the gun with anything remotely like a sane
load from a reloading manual. Too long and the round might not chamber. No harm unless
you load up a ton without checking a dummy round, and ANY cartridge in ANY gun will
do this same thing - - - well, there are a few 7x57s out there with such long throats that
you can pretty much use any LOA, but for about 90+% of the guns our there - too long and
it won't chanber. Pretty basic first step in reloading.

I have loaded in the area of 250,000 rounds of .45 ACP in the last 33 years. Down to only
around 6-7000 rounds in that caliber per year these days.

OH - and stay away from the McCormick mags for self defense purposes. IMO, if you are going to
use FMJ ammo - get Checkmate's "GI LIPS" mags.

Bill


I don't know where I read it but I do remember that I read it in the last week or so. It might have been with bullets in excess of 250 gr and max charges I don't remember. I DO remember that that the PSI listed for this mix up was something like 60,000 psi. SO your saying that seating depth makes no difference and will NOT increase the PSI of the load at all?
Ron

[Bullet Caster]

I disagree with JammerSix. He stated that he'd never seen a 1911 that need a feed ramp polishing. If you'd seen my feed ramp on my Norinco you'd say it needed polishing. It would NOT chamber a round out of the box. That goes for hardball as well as hollow points. Now that the feed ramp has been polished by a qualified gunsmith, it now readily feeds anything I load into the mag. The very first hardball I tried to chamber got wedged between the slide and the feed ramp. This pistol wouldn't chamber anything until the feed ramp was polished. The gunsmith also clipped a round off of the hammer spring to lighten the trigger pull and I can now rely on this pistol for CCW.
As with any autoloader, the magazine is the weakest link. I've got about 12 mags everything from Colt ones to the factory mag that came with the pistol. After polishing the feed ramp no magazine lip problems were encountered. However, in my 9mm Hi-Point I did, in fact, have to adjust the mag lips because I kept getting a round stuck between the slide and feed ramp. I took both of my 9mm magazines apart and the mag spring in my 8 round mag had been twisted. After I put it back in and adjusted the feed lips, I had no more failure to feed. I also bought a 10 round after market magazine and it would not feed properly so I took it apart and found that the manufacturer had put the spring in backward. After I turned the spring around I had no more failures to fee. Hope this will help with your failure to feed. The magazine is usually the most suspect if you encounter failure to feed problems. BC

[garym1a2]

They say the oal is a big factor in 9mm and a little bit makes the psi go way up.

I don't know where I read it but I do remember that I read it in the last week or so. It might have been with bullets in excess of 250 gr and max charges I don't remember. I DO remember that that the PSI listed for this mix up was something like 60,000 psi. SO your saying that seating depth makes no difference and will NOT increase the PSI of the load at all?
Ron

[MikeS]

This is an interesting discussion about magazine followers! Having a few different brands of magazines I checked, and only 2 of my magazines have a metal follower of the type that would be bad for an aluminum framed gun. Both of those magazines are ones that I got used, and don't have a clue who made them, but one I suspect is a McCormick 10 round magazine. The factory magazine (Taurus) has a metal follower that looks like the Metalform 7 round follower (that would be good for aluminum).

One reason that manufacturers use the style follower that's not good for aluminum frames is that they're cheaper to make, and work perfectly fine with steel framed guns, which is the way they were originally designed. Considering that Kimber makes several different models with aluminum frames I'm surprised that they're still using magazines with the stamped steel followers. Taurus which also makes versions with aluminum frames uses the aluminum safe metal style followers for all their magazines, regardless of if the gun they're being sold with is an aluminum framed gun, or steel framed (as mine is). While the metal followers that are safe for aluminum framed guns are more expensive to make (when compared to the other metal followers), it makes more sense to have only one style of magazine for all the 1911's they make. I'm not familiar with Kimber guns, so I don't know if they use more than one follower design for their magazines, but if they do, it would seem that perhaps the gun you got Karen has the wrong followers. Perhaps Kimber will exchange your original magazines with ones that have an aluminum safe follower?

There are several companies that make either the plastic followers, or the metal ones that are safe for aluminum framed guns, so you could probably replace any followers that are not the correct ones with aftermarket replacements that are safe with aluminum. Other than changing the magazine followers, I would be careful about making any other changes to your gun before you eliminate all other factors, as it might be as simple as using a more powerful cartridge will solve your problems.

Also, be very careful about 'advise' you get here, I've already seen several posters whose advise I think it just wrong. Listen to 35remington, his advise has been spot on so far. As I already said, I would replace any followers you have that are not aluminum safe (as shown in a post above) with ones that are, either by buying replacements for any non-Kimber magazines, and seeing if Kimber will replace the ones in the magazines that came with the gun. Other than that I wouldn't make any other changes (springs, polishing feed ramps, etc.) until you've ruled out everything else.

[MikeS]

I don't know where I read it but I do remember that I read it in the last week or so. It might have been with bullets in excess of 250 gr and max charges I don't remember. I DO remember that that the PSI listed for this mix up was something like 60,000 psi. SO your saying that seating depth makes no difference and will NOT increase the PSI of the load at all?
Ron

Ron, what he's saying if I read it correctly is that while yes, seating a boolit too deeply will increase the pressure, IF the round was loaded originally with a sane load, AND the boolit is seated slightly deeper than it should be, that the pressures won't be so high as to blow up the gun. Having said that, if the load is an overmax load to start with, and the boolit is pushed all the way into the case, it's possible to damage the gun. The 45ACP is a fairly low pressure round, and in any modern gun (made in the last 50 years or so) the steels used are much stronger than those used originally, so it's possible to overload a 45ACP without it blowing up the gun. That doesn't mean that you should routinely overload your gun, as that will damage any gun over time, but if you get a single round where the boolit is seated too deeply it's not going to create a dangerous situation. Now if you have a gun thats chambered for a higher pressure round, and you load it with a max pressure round, and seat that boolit much deeper than it should be, then you run the risk of blowing up your gun.

[35remington]

Karen, yes, that's correct:

NO Shooting Stars or Power Mags by Chip McCormick. Period.

Bad for aluminum frames!

ColColt, the seven shot Checkmates with the dimple and open front are fine with aluminum, vanadium, skankium, scandium, or byzantium frames. Tongue in cheek, a bit, but they're fine.

Let's correct some misstatements about followers:

Long before plastic followers existed, the standard length grip, seven shot magazine follower was the only type extant, and the aluminum framed 1911 existed long before plastic followered or full front skirted magazines. The long rear skirt prevented any problems, and did not ding aluminum frames. This same follower would be found in flush fit, six shot short grip 1911 magazines.

This follower is not bad for aluminum frames, despite what was said earlier about it being a poor choice. The reason is that its longer rear skirt has more spring coils bearing against it, preventing it from nosediving into the aluminum frame on the last shot.

Since I'm mostly correcting Joshua's post, I refer you to his pictures earlier. The ONLY follower pictured that will gouge aluminum frames is the type identified as the McCormick.

Reason? The short rear skirt has too few spring coils bearing against it. Allows it to tip forward. Try tipping a seven shot magazine follower forward......I invite you to try. You can't.

You also can't do this with a seven shot follower. You can with a McCormick follower in a Shooting Star or a Power Mag, found in eight shot full size grip, or seven short short grip 1911's:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y228/johnnyrem/DSC02140.jpg

The McCormick follower is the shape it is because it was designed to fit an eighth shot in a flush fit magazine. To make the room for the extra round, the skirt has to be shorter to let the follower get closer to the bottom of the magazine. The tradeoff for one more shot wasn't worth it, because even Chip McCormick will tell you, indirectly, that his follower isn't very good. The Power Mag Plus is proof of that last statement.

[hansumtoad]

Can you feed an empty case? Load one in the clip. Release the slide using the slide release. If it hangs... find a reliable gunsmith. If need be.,... Cylider and Slide in Nebraska. Once they feed empties... no more jams. PERIOD. After reading your issue, please mike the Over All Length (OAL) of the entire round both Lead and FMJ to the .001". Bet thre is a diff and either that or the feed lips of the clip is the culprit.

24 years in the gunsmithing business and a Navy Distinguished Master in Handgun. God knows how many .45's fired but its a bunch.

[hansumtoad]

BTW.... the aforementioned post was typed with the experience gained by using a Colt steel frame and Colt steel clips.....steel. No aluminum, plastic, carbon, blah blah blah..... And one othe thing. Sight picture, breath control, and squeeze. No need for a follow up shot....lead or FMJ. I guess I'm just old school.

If it has a prancing pony on it, a seven round clip, and a 230 grain round nosed slug, you dont need another gun.

[Josh Smith]

Karen, yes, that's correct:

NO Shooting Stars or Power Mags by Chip McCormick. Period.

Bad for aluminum frames!

ColColt, the seven shot Checkmates with the dimple and open front are fine with aluminum, vanadium, skankium, scandium, or byzantium frames. Tongue in cheek, a bit, but they're fine.

Let's correct some misstatements about followers:

Long before plastic followers existed, the standard length grip, seven shot magazine follower was the only type extant, and the aluminum framed 1911 existed long before plastic followered or full front skirted magazines. The long rear skirt prevented any problems, and did not ding aluminum frames. This same follower would be found in flush fit, six shot short grip 1911 magazines.

This follower is not bad for aluminum frames, despite what was said earlier about it being a poor choice. The reason is that its longer rear skirt has more spring coils bearing against it, preventing it from nosediving into the aluminum frame on the last shot.

Since I'm mostly correcting Joshua's post, I refer you to his pictures earlier. The ONLY follower pictured that will gouge aluminum frames is the type identified as the McCormick.

Reason? The short rear skirt has too few spring coils bearing against it. Allows it to tip forward. Try tipping a seven shot magazine follower forward......I invite you to try. You can't.

You also can't do this with a seven shot follower. You can with a McCormick follower in a Shooting Star or a Power Mag, found in eight shot full size grip, or seven short short grip 1911's:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y228/johnnyrem/DSC02140.jpg

The McCormick follower is the shape it is because it was designed to fit an eighth shot in a flush fit magazine. To make the room for the extra round, the skirt has to be shorter to let the follower get closer to the bottom of the magazine. The tradeoff for one more shot wasn't worth it, because even Chip McCormick will tell you, indirectly, that his follower isn't very good. The Power Mag Plus is proof of that last statement.

I'm sorry, I have to disagree.

And there is some disagreement in the 1911 community at large about the standard 7 round split followers being used in the 1911 aluminum frames.

I generally advise folks with aluminum framed pistols to stay away from all split followers simply because some (not all, but some) do not stay put as you state.

One of the worst offenders is the cheap-o Triple K. I bought one to induce malfunctions and sure road forward with the last round!

I've had this happen with split followers using weak magazine springs.

Please don't get me wrong; I love the split type. I use them to feed TC loads all the time, and my favorite for this is actually an old tapered lip surplus mag.

I simply not willing to give advice that may destroy a pistol, so I make a general blanket statement that no split followers, only skirted, should be used in aluminum framed 1911 pistols.

It's sort of like telling folks that an R43 plug should be used in a Chevy V8. The R45 burns hotter and may burn through the piston. Likely? No. Possible? Yes. Do I run a hotter heat range? You betcha'. Do I recommend others do the same? No.

Here is but one of many discussions on the subject:

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=322738

I will continue advising against anything but skirted followers in aluminum 1911 pistols, especially Kimber.

Feel free to disagree; seems that's all we 1911 people do unless we're debating the Beretta or Glock people!

Regards,

Josh

[Karen]

In researching info on my Dad's 1911 that he carried in Viet Nam, (he bought it from the Navy, it was still serving proudly on a submarine when Dad retired from the Army) I came across an article written in the 1930's ? The officer was cursing newer commercial 8 round magazines and how John Browning tested for 11 years until he perfected the 1911 with it's 7 round magazine. Apparently he tried for years to get that 8th cartridge to function but it never worked.
Also, one of the old Colt models prior to the 1911, maybe the 1902? He tested slide serrations on the front of the slide, but determined that it was too dangerous to have a soldiers' hand there. So he designed serrations only on the rear of the slide on the 1911. And I see some new expensive 1911s with the serrations on the front again.

I suppose the same old issues keep coming up.

[Jammer Six]

The M1900 had front cocking serrations.

"The ingenious, but simple, M1900 was the first semi-automatic pistol produced in the United States, and is the linear ancestor of, and design basis for, the Colt Government Model .45."

Jerry Kuhnhausen, The Colt .45 Automatic A Shop Manual, (McCall: Heritage-VSP Publications, 1990), 6.

Page seven shows a picture of the M1900, which looks like it was over six inches long, with a double link locking system and front cocking serrations.

I agree. Your hands don't belong out there. There's a little hole that bullets come out of, and I keep my hands away from it.

[mroliver77]

Here is what a .45 to the hand looks like.
http://www.thegunzone.com/nd.html

And a real sweet one!
http://negligentdischarge.com/leg.html

On topic well kind of. I have two 1811. One a Springfield Armory Inc "Loaded" that a fellow tried to polish the ramp with a Dremel. It went bad for him real quick! He took it back to the gun shop and wanted it replaced via the warranty. sigh The owner is a good guy and gave him a decent credit for it against another new gun.

Shop owner replaced frame with an Essex frame using all the rest of the S.A. parts. He then used the botched frame for a .22 rimfire 1911. It did not need the ramp intact to work. Anyhow this gun is an accurate shooter. It does not like the Chip mags I have! I also have a Colt 1991A1 "Commander" that is a sweetheart! It will function with the Chip mags but is not dependable. I have four Colt mags. They work well with my H&G #68 loads.

I shoot a bit of IDPA and get in some odd positions and can end up limp wristing the gun at times. I have had a couple malfunctions with the SA but none with the Colt. I picked up some USGI mags new in wrapper at a gunshow foe $7.50 each. These things perform flawlessly every time! For carry these are what I use now. If you watch them feed it is just like the book shows. Imagine that. From what I read the Checkmate mags and therefore the newer Colt mags made by Checkmate are as close to GI design as your gonna get.

[fredj338]

I look at the issue of handloads vs factory for SD/HD as more negatives than positives. WHy; cost? One 50rd box of SD ammo should last you at least 2ysr & that is if you swap out your ammo annually. Consider most of the better JHP are NOT available to the handloader, why? Consider most powders available to the handloader are NOT flash supressed, again, why?
Would I use handloads fo SD/HD if that was all I had, sure, but you can bet I would be able to articulate why.
Lead bullets for long term storage is not a good idea either. Bullet lube migration & this wierd habbit of lead bullets getting slightly larger over time can cause reliability issues. For long term SHTF storage, I have no issues w/ handloaded JHP. If it comes to that, the laws are going to be a pretty much what ever you make them @ the moment.
BTW, all I run in my various manuf 1911s are 8rd mags. They all run fine. I like frint serations, but it does require discipline to se them. I see many new IDPA shooters doing unsafe things press checking their 1911s using front serrations.

[mpmarty]

Three 45acp pistols and two use the Chip 8 round mags with no problems the third is a little bitty Taurus millenium pro with its staggered ten round mag with plastic followers. The 3" Taurus will sometimes fail to feed with a nose down cartridge holding the slide open I believe this is due to worn mag springs but I may have limp wristed the little bugger too. The two full size 45s are all steel one an RIA the other a Taurus which is going away when I find it a new home.

[waksupi]

Three 45acp pistols and two use the Chip 8 round mags with no problems the third is a little bitty Taurus millenium pro with its staggered ten round mag with plastic followers. The 3" Taurus will sometimes fail to feed with a nose down cartridge holding the slide open I believe this is due to worn mag springs but I may have limp wristed the little bugger too. The two full size 45s are all steel one an RIA the other a Taurus which is going away when I find it a new home.

You must be lucky with your McCormicks. I have three, and had malfunctions on ever one. I contacted the company, and was informed they were only intended to be used with specific bullets, and the malfunctions were my fault, because I always have my magazines loaded. I told them I just happen to carry one or the other of my 1911's every day, and I never considered if I may need more than one magazine, I should have to stop and load another. All in all, Chip was pretty rude about it, and would not stand by his product. I got new springs and followers from Brownells, and am back to 7 shot loads with zero malfunctions.

[Jammer Six]

All in all, Chip was pretty rude about it, and would not stand by his product.
Yikes.

I'm glad I only bought one. I ended up just throwing it away when I bought 30 Metalforms.

[Russel Nash]

not to thread drift here, but...

now you guys have me wondering about my 1911 magazines.

HUH!? I have a bunch of the Chip McCormick Shooting Star mags. One 1911 that I have is notorious for puking on SWC's. I'd love to get it running right. I have one Wilson 47(D?) mag, and one ACTS mag. It would be great if it all it took was switching mags.

[ColColt]

Long before plastic followers existed, the standard length grip, seven shot magazine follower was the only type extant, and the aluminum framed 1911 existed long before plastic followered or full front skirted magazines. The long rear skirt prevented any problems, and did not ding aluminum frames. This same follower would be found in flush fit, six shot short grip 1911 magazines.

This follower is not bad for aluminum frames, despite what was said earlier about it being a poor choice. The reason is that its longer rear skirt has more spring coils bearing against it, preventing it from nosediving into the aluminum frame on the last shot.

I have to agree with 35remington on this. The Colt LW Commander existed decades before the advent of plastic followers as did metal followers with the 90 degree leg with no skirt. Had there been a severe problem with them digging into the feed ramp I feel sure someone would have advised Colt long ago. To date, even though used little so far, my CM GI mags have not scored or scratched the feed ramp of my SW1911SC.

[35remington]

Joshua, you are correct; if you buy junk, consequences that are undesirable occur.

However, your blanket statement that open front, seven round full rear skirt followers are all bad for aluminum frames and not recommended is not the case, and thus my comment.

You did not bother to note any exceptions, and it was important to correct what you had written, or those here may have made the wrong conclusions from your post. Perfectly acceptable magazines with desirable characteristics may have been avoided had someone taken your post literally. In fact, the most suitable magazines of all for 1911's might have been passed over if your advice was taken at face value.

That would be a shame.

It is important to distinguish that seven shot magazines conforming to standard specs, which was all that were available for aluminum frame 1911's for many years prior to the "new" follower types, caused no harm, and did not deserve to be lumped into this category.

Still don't. Checkmate, Metalform, Cylinder and Slide, and a whole bunch of others make non dinging open front followers, so it's not like they are hard to find. Even old GI magazines will not harm aluminum frames, provided they haven't been run over by a truck.

These magazines with their seven shot skirted followers caused no harm to lightweight Commanders, and did not deserve to be lumped in with whatever junk may be found.

Agreed?

It is relatively simple to determine how well the follower is held in place. If in doubt, test yourself.

[35remington]

Russel, if you know exactly how it's puking, it's likely you can fix it. By repetitive failure and showing the same symptoms each time (location of cartridge when it jams, I mean).

[Jammer Six]

However, your blanket statement that open front, seven round full rear skirt followers are all bad for aluminum frames and not recommended is not the case, and thus my comment.
I don't know much about the magazines mentioned, but I have seen many, many small 1911s with problems.

So after reading Joshuas comments about the magazines (which I read with interest, because I had never heard those theories before) I didn't come to the conclusion that the followers were bad, I simply added it to the list.

Yet another reason to avoid small, aluminum 1911s.

[Josh Smith]

Joshua, you are correct; if you buy junk, consequences that are undesirable occur.

However, your blanket statement that open front, seven round full rear skirt followers are all bad for aluminum frames and not recommended is not the case, and thus my comment.

You did not bother to note any exceptions, and it was important to correct what you had written, or those here may have made the wrong conclusions from your post. Perfectly acceptable magazines with desirable characteristics may have been avoided had someone taken your post literally. In fact, the most suitable magazines of all for 1911's might have been passed over if your advice was taken at face value.

That would be a shame.

It is important to distinguish that seven shot magazines conforming to standard specs, which was all that were available for aluminum frame 1911's for many years prior to the "new" follower types, caused no harm, and did not deserve to be lumped into this category.

Still don't. Checkmate, Metalform, Cylinder and Slide, and a whole bunch of others make non dinging open front followers, so it's not like they are hard to find. Even old GI magazines will not harm aluminum frames, provided they haven't been run over by a truck.

These magazines with their seven shot skirted followers caused no harm to lightweight Commanders, and did not deserve to be lumped in with whatever junk may be found.

Agreed?

It is relatively simple to determine how well the follower is held in place. If in doubt, test yourself.

Hello,

I can agree with this.

I guess I've just seen way too much undesirable happen with the 1911 because of folks either not thinking about what they're saying or other folks taking it wrong.

I've seen aluminum ramps gouged by folks who use the cheap mags mentioned or McCormicks after other, supposedly knowledgeable people said it was OK.

Also, I've seen problems caused by some of the wider, sharper hollowpoints, but didn't bring that up here as it wasn't being discussed.

If I read correctly, the OP found a gouge in the feed ramp that could have been caused by a hollowpoint.

Neither do I believe in 8 round mags for the 1911 unless they were designed from the ground up to be 8 round mags. I've found that the Wilson 47D usually causes the first round to nosedive into the feedramp at a steep angle. It still feeds in most pistols but after a few chamberings the bullet has set back too far to be safe.

Additionally, I don't see how this could be good for an aluminum frame.

I figure if one wants an 8 round mag, one should probably go with one designed to be an 8 round mag, like the Cobra or Wilson ETM.

After trying Mec-Gar and A.C.T. mags, I really liked them -- until one cracked the feed lips and the other blew the floor plate!

I depend a lot on my magazines. I live in the country and the woods in which I live produce a lot of critters who are sometimes stubborn about not destroying property even though I'm nice about it, throwing old biscuits and such loaded with fat out into the wilderness when the winter gets particularly tough.

Therefore, I need something I can rely on.

The ones I've personally found to work best are a tapered feed lip surplus mag, non-marked, and an identical, maybe aftermarket, with slightly weaker spring and hybrid feed lips.

Both were in a gift basket a former Navy competition shooter's family sent me through his family after his passing. They weren't gun people. The Colt National Match was gone, but the box was still there. I found someone who shot the same circuit as he did and the box went that way.

The man's name was Mr. Orlando and I sometimes mention it in hopes that someone will remember him. Someplace I still have the plaque from his ship's door.

But I digress.

Those, and Wilson 47 7rnd mags, are the ones that I've found I like. They take abuse.

No luck with Shooting Stars until I replaced their crappy followers with military followers. They worked perfectly then!

Cobra mags are in another class, being 8 round mags.

I was wanting to try the whole gamut of good mags, but you see, I'm a lefty. I ran the whole gamut of ambi safeties. I bet I bought every one out there. The only one I didn't try was the Ed Brown -- never got to it as I really like the Caspian.

As well, I didn't get to the Wilson Bulletproof as it came out when my experiments were winding down.

I did publish the results on the web and will do so here if you're interested at all.

But I digress.

Because I want to be absolutely clear and not have folks misunderstand me, I do recommend skirted followers and solids or expanding-full-metal-jacket-type bullets.

However, I agree with you as well.

It's just a CMA thing.

Not all folks who own guns are gun people, so I just try to make things as simple and straightforward as possible.

Regards,

Josh

[Bret4207]

Not to engage in thread drift, but did I ever mention how nicely my Smith '17 works?

[35remington]

If a guy experiments with all the options in magazines, he's done all he can to ensure the gun will work properly in that regard.

I made a comment about the undesirability of sharp edged hollowpoints in post #39, so I did address the issue. Easy to lose that information with all the posts here.

[Texantothecore]

I agree on your analysis of Mas Ayoob. One of the bones to pick I have with him is that he has intermixed and confused the difference between defensive shooting and tactical shooting.

Defensive shooting occurs at 10-15 feet, 3-5 shots are fired. The first shot landing is critical, not the massive amounts of ammo you have stored in the grip.

Tactical shooting occurs at much longer distances and can involve spectacular amounts of ammo and personnel. 'Specially if you are an NYC cop. Recent tactical shooting in NYC involved 125 rounds expended by perp + cops: No one hit on either side.

One of the more effective defensive guns was the .41 caliber derringer. Millions were made and they were quite lethal. 565 fps. Two rounds.

[Texantothecore]

I feel exactly the same way. The decision is mine to make.

Another point that may be germane is that whatever round the expert claims you loaded can be duplicated exactly and tested against ballistic gelatin. The answers provided by the bullet track and expansion are definitive.

Which is probably why Mas Ayoob cannot find citations that prove his claim that reloads will get you into trouble in court. That argument track followed by a DA would get turned in his face.

[Texantothecore]

Karen, to get back on track, I had a Beretta .380 that jammed everytime I used it. I hated that pistol and finally sold it and replaced it with a .45 ACP.

It was my first pistol and it was only later that I realized that the problem with the pistol was probably some banged up magazines that would not feed correctly. That is the very first place I would look to solve your problem as they may have changed over time. They may even look good but the angles have changed over time. I do not store my magazines in cases but in a bug out bag in which they get banged around.

Which is why I am switching over to revolvers this year. The delicacy of the lips on a magazine make me extremely nervous if I have to use it in a defensive situation.

[Bret4207]

I agree on your analysis of Mas Ayoob. One of the bones to pick I have with him is that he has intermixed and confused the difference between defensive shooting and tactical shooting.

Defensive shooting occurs at 10-15 feet, 3-5 shots are fired. The first shot landing is critical, not the massive amounts of ammo you have stored in the grip.

Tactical shooting occurs at much longer distances and can involve spectacular amounts of ammo and personnel. 'Specially if you are an NYC cop. Recent tactical shooting in NYC involved 125 rounds expended by perp + cops: No one hit on either side.

One of the more effective defensive guns was the .41 caliber derringer. Millions were made and they were quite lethal. 565 fps. Two rounds.

Interesting take on the difference between defense and tactical. Never heard it put that way before.

[fredj338]

Tactical shooting occurs at much longer distances and can involve spectacular amounts of ammo and personnel. 'Specially if you are an NYC cop. Recent tactical shooting in NYC involved 125 rounds expended by perp + cops: No one hit on either side.
.

More of an idictment on the poor shooting skills of the avg LEO & perp. We all know the avg LEO doesn't practice to reach any real skill level w/ their pistols. I have seen it for years & the trend continues today inspite of the advancements in firearms & tactics. The guy pulling the trigger will always be the deciding factor.:Fire:

[Bret4207]

Yeah Fred, but our society is breeding fewer and fewer shooters, much less enthusiasts, and the budget for ammo and training keeps dropping. 'Sides, when the BG is shooting at you and you're crouched behind a car there's probably a lot more "covering fire" than aimed shots. I think it worked that way in the military too.

You know, with all these gun control laws...shouldn't the bad guys be pretty much out of guns by now?

[Jammer Six]

Aimed fire might work. Suppressive fire will work.

I always laugh (secretly) at other instructors when they harp on "shot placement".

They've never been under suppressive fire, or seen the results of a proper application of it.

[Love Life]

Whatever is in my gun at the time is going to do the killing.

[Love Life]

Aimed fire might work. Suppressive fire will work.

I always laugh (secretly) at other instructors when they harp on "shot placement".

They've never been under suppressive fire, or seen the results of a proper application of it.

Amen!! Amen!!!

[merlin101]

It's been a long read, but I learned a thing or two. Anyone wanna buy some 8 round mags?

[Josh Smith]

It's been a long read, but I learned a thing or two. Anyone wanna buy some 8 round mags?

What kind and how much?

Keep in mind that I'd be paying for the mag bodies only as I'd be converting them right away!

Regards,

Josh

[pricedo]

If you have Hunters Shack ammo from Missoula, I think they burned down around 20-25 years ago. I don't now if they ever re-opened or not. They had a commercial type loading machine set up in the back of the shop, and reloaded for the MPD.

They're up & running again. I've read some posts on forums about unsafe ammo & damage to guns but I think the authorities &/or lawsuits would have put them out of business if all of the bad stuff were true.
I noted that the posts saying the HSM ammo was unsafe NEVER pointed to a single documented incident, laboratory test or showed even a single picture of the supposed damage. :popcorn: