Surplus Powder Data/Load Development

[wdm004]

Before I start to reload with surplus powder I want to have an idea of what to expect from a particular powder. I see that the surplus powder dealers have suggested equivalent canister powder load data to follow. And I understand that surplus powder is not (as) consistent as canister powder from lot to lot. Therefor I will work up any surplus powder loads from safe starting levels. But my question is how do I determine the characteristics of surplus powder for myself, and gain a level of confidence that surplus X powder will really load like canister Y powder?

I have read the posts here, and appreciate the experience that has been shared. But everyones situation is different, and a general method would be useful to all.

Any thoughts?

tnx,
Dan

[lar45]

http://www.castpics.net/RandD/load_data/load_data.htm

First off, here is some info on surplus powders that have been used and the actual results. There is no pressure data, so you just have to guess on that.

You can start with the low end loads that are suggested, clock them over a chronograph and then compare to what your load book says. Usually there are several powders that go up and down the burn rate range for a given cartridge and bullet. Compare your actual results with what's in the book.
Not all powder has the same amount of energy per grain.
Velocity isn't free, it comes with higher pressures, or more powder.
You can look for the classic pressure indicators of primer flatness and case head expansion, or stiff bolt handle lift, but they do not always show up when you want them to.

I don't know if I muddied the water or not?
Most of the surplus powders I've shot behaved normally except for my jug of WC852. It seems like it is giveing much higher pressures for the weight of the charge and the velocity obtained. Many other people report that WC852 behaves perfectly for them.

[Dale53]

A lot depends on what particular rifle or pistol you are loading for. Ken Water's system of miking the case expansion ring is probably best for most rifles and performance pistols and revolvers.

However, if you have known loads for your revolver, let's say:
I am shooting a particular .44 magnum revolver and have a long history with both 23.0 and 24.0 grs of Canister H110 and a Keith style 240 gr bullet. I have chronographed it and have a long term idea of its worth in my revolver.

I do all shooting and chronographing to compare on the same day with the same set up. 23.0 grs of H110 gives me 1200 fps. 24.0 grs gives me 1300 fps.

Non-cannister, surplus, WC 820 (starting to work up with #9 data as #9 is the same type of powder but known to be faster than H110). After working up from the #9 data, I learn that 22.5 grs of WC 820, with the same bullet, primer, and cases gives me 1200 fps and 23.5 gives me 1300 fps. I now know that the WC 820 is a half grain faster in MY revolver in the same caliber under the same conditions. That is VALUABLE information. I can now go ahead and load up accuracy test loads with confidence that I am not going to damage my equipment or extremely valuable self[smilie=1:.

One caution, this test does NOT mean that WC 820 is one-half grain faster than H110 in all cartridges and all cases. You still have to work up in each separate caliber for definitive answers.

The above is NOT a complete answer as to pressures but it is a working hypothesis that will serve you well.

CAVEATS: You still need to "pay attention" (examine cases, primers, force of ejection, and measure the case expansion ring).

Consider the above to be a good part of the story, but not ALL of the story...

Until you have considerable experience in loading I would suggest that the relative newcomer stick to cannister powders and the powder manufacturer's loading manual.

Dale53

[wdm004]

Thank you lar45 and Dale53. lar45 - Good information on watching for signs of over-pressure, velocity and the burn rate chart. Dale53 - You detail working up a load watching for warning signs, also. And both of you mention known starting points (load_data.htm and known .44 loads).

These are wise insights born of experience. I have been loading since 1981, so I have some experience with standard loading procedures and practices.

My question is about taking the next step. That is, being able to estimate, or predict, or calculate the performance of a surplus powder in a specific application.
I'm not a ballistics expert and I don't play one on TV, but I suspect that there is enough information somewhere to figure out what to expect of a load before it is tried. You have proposed an empirical method. I'm enquiring along the lines of a more theoretical approach.

I appreciate the insights.

Any more thoughts?

tnx,
Dan

[Dale53]

I had an occasion, once, to speak to an actual ballistician. He was quite open and we had a nice discussion. However, he warned me, very seriously about relying on "interpolation". He pointed out that "logic" does not always work and you can get SURPRISED, big time (as in a blown up gun, etc).

That is the reason for my caution about working up loads using unknown powders with different calibers.

Again, logic does not always apply.

Narramore's book on reloading has the best "reasoned" and theoretical text that I have read. It is out of print but should be available at used book stores, online. The book is titled, "Principles and Practices of Reloading" by George Narramore.

It's a dern shame that there is nothing available currently to match the offerings of the past. The NRA is no longer a leader in anything except the political front. I have recently searched their web site and there is NOTHING that I can find of a serious technical nature.

Mostly, the "Good Old Days" are TODAY but that does not seem to apply to good, in depth technical information. Whatever happened to H.P. White's pressure tested data for ammo loaded outside SAAMI's standards? I admit that there is little reason to want to exceed SAAMI standards in most cases. However, the .32 H&R magnum is a case in point where the SAAMI standard was set for sub standard revolvers of little strength (the H&R).

Personally, this is of little importance to me, generally, but if I wanted to hunt with my .45 Colt Ruger or shoot Coyote's with my .32 Mag, it would be nice to really have some good information (not just guesses from those who have not YET blown up their guns). THE powder company, Hodgdon, has good info on their web site and in their manuals, but I rather miss Ol" Bruce. I could get a straight answer from him about most anything. He was never too big to call and ask direct. The sons may be just as good but I have never met them. I recently sent an e-mail to Hodgdon, I got a receipt that they opened my inquiry but they never replied. I think that I shall have to call them direct and see if I can get some information ( my question was on loading the 200 gr dbl ended WC Group Buy at full tilt in both the .44 Special and .44 magnum). I can easily work up a load for target use (piece of cake with a chronograph). However, I can find NOTHING regarding using this bullet (that greatly reduces case capacity) at full velocities.

Just some thougnts...

Dale53

[Ricochet]

I think that I shall have to call them direct and see if I can get some information ( my question was on loading the 200 gr dbl ended WC Group Buy at full tilt in both the .44 Special and .44 magnum). I can easily work up a load for target use (piece of cake with a chronograph). However, I can find NOTHING regarding using this bullet (that greatly reduces case capacity) at full velocities.
Duh! The bullet does not yet exist, other than in digital form or printouts thereof. Nobody's tested it.

You can buy QuickLoad, enter the measurements of the bullet and cartridge case, seating depth and the powder(s) you intend to use and come up with as reasonable an estimate as anyone on Earth has.

[Dale53]

Ricochet,
I know the bullet doesn't yet exist but it's design isn't all that exotic. I don't have Quick Load. If someone does, let them run the numbers and let us know[smilie=1:.
I know at least twenty of us HERE that would sure like the information...:-D

Dale53

[Ricochet]

No, the design's not exotic at all. My point is, anyone will simply have to estimate loads and performance. It seemed to me that you were asking for specific data, which doesn't exist. I don't have QuickLoad either. Before someone can run any QuickLoad estimates, they'll need some dimensions for the bullet.

What I'll do is take some Scot Nitro 100, the stuff I've got open that I'm presently using for low intensity handgun cartridges (and plinker rifle loads), put a .5 cc Lee dipper full of it (3.7 grains) under that bullet in .44 Special cases and .7 cc (5.2 grains) in the Magnums and go shoot. If it's a pretty day and the range isn't crowded, I'll shoot some over the Chrony. But those will be very mild loads.

Oh yeah: If that bullet truly drops out at .434" it'll work in my Walker replica, too. Over a "60 grain" volumetric charge of RS Pyrodex. BOOM!

[PatMarlin]

Please define "the case expansion ring". I'm not sure I fully understand that term.

[BD]

I think there is some significant risk in interpolation of load data for surplus powders, even within the same cartridge using different bullet weights. I ran into this issue early in my load developement using WC820 in the .44 mag. Basically my lot of WC820 ran very close to canister H110 using bullets of 240 grains and under. However, it behaved much more and more like #9 as the bullet weights increased, and case capacity decreased. My method for load work up is:
Use the load work up for the canister powder which appears the closest to the surplus lot in question. Load up in tenth of a grain increments, using the surplus powder and the canister powder side by side keeping all other components identical.
Load a work up for all bullets you plan to use, or at least a light bullet, a midrange bullet and a heavy bullet. Shoot all of it on the same day over the same chrony. I shoot the loads alternating between the surplus and the canister powders at the same charge weights. Watch what is happening as you progress and record everything. Pay particular attention to diverging velocities between the canister and the surplus as well as sudden jumps and "flat spots" in the increase of the velocity. If any anomolies occur, stop shooting. Take your time and record the accuracy. Never exceed the max load and/or resultant velocity of the book max for the canister powder. This is pretty involved and can take all day to shoot. But,
when your done you'll likely have an accurate load somewhere below max which is using an affordable powder, and you'll have some basis for understanding how that surplus powder is behaving using that particular bullet in that particular combination. If you've bought 24 lb of the surplus you're set for a long time.
One other thing to look at is temperature. If you're likely to be using the surplus loads in a wide range of temps, it's well worth checking the velocities over the temp range you expect. I think that very low pressure loads are much more temp sensitive. I've gotten some surprises here as well. I worked up loads using WC 860 under heavy bullets in the .270 WBY mag and the 6.5 x 55. At 60 degrees these loads produced pretty near factory ammo velocities. At 0 deg the .270 Wby loads lost a full 200 fps, which is not that unexpected. But I could see the 160 grainers flying out of the 6.5 x 55 with the sunrise behind me. The unburned powder left a gray smudge on the snow, the deer did go down, but it took three shots. They all penetrated completely, but with no real expansion. My guess at the velocity would be something below 1,500 fps.
Surplus powders are well worth the effort, but some effort is definately required to do it right. Right now I'm burning up a fair bit of surplus HPC-18, (231) in the .45 acp. I shot up the first 6 pounds with Winchester LP primers just as sweet as could be. Now I can't seem to get any Winchester primers and using the CCIs velocities are all over the place and I'm getting quite a variation in "feel" and an occasional stovepipe. I guess this stuff is very close to 231, just harder to light.
BD

[felix]

Very excellent, BD. ... felix

[Buckshot]

..............My first experience with suprlus was in '92 and it was WC852 from Bartlett. I bought it as I was fooling with the 30-06 a lot. It had 'Use like' data with it and I figured to be extra safe starting out. I used the lightest bullet the 'Use like canister powder' related to and picked the starting load. Holy cat's it was way faster! A few more trials had me calling up Jeff and discussing it with him. He ended up faxing me 5-6 pages of the Army's acceptance trials from the Badger Army ammunition plant in Baraboo, Wisc.

What it was saying sure didn't match anything I was seeing from my M77 Ruger. That ended up being the fast WC852. Later I got another lot which was the slow WC852 and that powder was a dream. Predictable and without any oddities at all.

So far as WC820 goes I believe there are 3 distinct lots. Or there were at one time. Now in these days of dwindling surplus supplies one may be all in the hands of users, leaving only one or maybe 2 out there? Again the "Use Like' canister powder was H110. As before I picked a light bullet (110gr JHP) and the beginning charge for the 357 mag and used my Ruger BH 4-5/8 bbl revolver. It too was faster.

After some initial work I loaded up like batches of my WC820 and H110 with 110gr, 125gr and 140gr jacketed slugs. I'm at work so I can't relate exact velocities and SD's but with the 140gr slugs the first 3 increments working up (I think it was in 2/10ths increments) for the 3 loads the velocity only increased 2 fps 1st to 3rd. However the SD's were almost halved to a single digit at the 3rd load. Pressure was evident. It was obvious that in that barrel length and with that bullet, WC820 was doing all it would do velocity wise. As the case filled it's efficiency increased via the decreasing SD's but there was no more velocity to be had.

I have had friends sell me their unused suprlus powder after working with it as it wasn't working for them. As an example our old rangemaster sold me the last 12 lbs of surp 4895 he had. He had a pet load that used H4895 and it gave him super accuracy and high velocity. He sold it to me not because accuracy suffered but because his velocity was down. It was less then 100 fps but he wanted all them "Feets per Second" he could get I guess :-)

There are so many holes in the surplus powder lineup vs the available canister stuff these days that I'd suspect that for 80% of the cartirdges out there using either cast or jacketed, there is no way to get the last erg of energy or velocity out of'em. I settle for accuracy, and I think that's something worth settling for!

There are 2 happy coincidences I've run across, and I'm sure others have their own. One is the 7.62x39 and surplus 4895 in a small ring Mauser. With the Lee C312-155-2R a full caseload (28.0grs) propells the slug to 1950 fps from a 23" bbl with match accuracy. The other is also a small ring Mauser conversion and this time to 35 Remington. The powder is WC846 and the way it worked out was the more you put in the faster the slug went (Saeco 200gr FPGC) and the smaller the groups got. Ended up at 41.0grs and the GC sitting on the powder and 2300 fps. Not too shabby!

..................Buckshot

[MtGun44]

I've been thinking about this surplus powder thing and have a
few ideas I'd like to bounce off of you experts out the - don't
try to hide, you know who you are. :)

It seems to me that if you have a rough idea of the burning rate
you can study loading manuals (everbody has lots of these, right?)
and get an idea what velocity the manuals are able to get with
your caliber, bullet wt and style and the "equivalent" powder
AT SAFE PRESSURES.

Ignoring the weight of the equivalent powder completely would
be much more tedious, so maybe reduce the starting charge
by 25% and load up 3 rounds for the chrono. It seems like the
real tool here would be the chrono, while watching for the serious
pressure signs like flattened primers and sticky extraction. If
the surplus powder is actually about the same burning rate as the
claimed "equivalent" powder, you should be able to carefully work up to
a load that matches the velocity reported in the loading manuals
for the "equivalent" powder. Expecting to exceed this, even in
absence of any "pressure signs" - the absence of which I trust
very little, would seem to be dangerous. For a particular burning
speed of powder, it would seem that differing quantites would
be reasonable for different powders, but it does NOT seem
reasonable to be getting more velocity with safe pressures than
known "equivalent" powders can obtain at safe pressures.

Comments please! Agree or disagree?? Am I on the right track,
or even near it. :)

Bill

[Maven]

MtGun44, Re: Ignoring the weight of the equivalent powder completely would
be much more tedious, so maybe reduce the starting charge
by 25% and load up 3 rounds for the chrono

A couple of problems: First, there may not be an equivalent cannister powder, e.g., IMR 5010, WC 872, (especially 5010), IMR 7383. Second, ignoring the weight would be dangerous, not tedious. Third, reducing the charge by as much as 1/4 is a good idea, but I'd chrono. at least 10-20 shots as sometimes extreme velocity spreads show up in shots 11-20. IMR 5010 does this pretty regularly in my rifles.

How to then to work up a load? Follow the data that comes with the [milsurp] powder whenever possible, reduce it by 10%-15% and chrono. your loads; but understand that some powders are temperature sensitive and that cast bullets will generate less pressure than jacketed ones of the same weight & diameter. If you get pressure signs, stop immediately, pull your remaining loads and contact the dealer as you may have an extra fast lot of powder. This happened to me with a lot of "Surplus .30-06." A telephone call to the dealer confirmed this and got me a new data sheet post haste.

How to proceed if there's little published data (IMR 7383 was one such powder)?
You procede with caution, meaning you try to deduce the burning rate and appropriateness of the powder in question by searching reloading manuals, Google, forums such as this and AR, and possibly even manufacturers, assuming they are known. As you implied, it's usually better to treat propelllant X as faster than it may be, search for pressure signs and chrono. it (ES's & SD's are "very revealing" as Barbara Walters might say). IMR 7383, a true oddball, doesn't come with much (any?) data, although such data can be ferreted out of Army manuals available from Bartlett, Hi Tech, et al. However, military uses of it aren't really equivalent to our uses in this instance. Buckshot, Felix, Roger Bartsche (AR>Reloading) have suggested it's burning rate was somewhere between IMR 4064 and H 380. I followed that advice (with jacketed bullets) and found my lot was slower, more like IMR 4350 (and significantly bulkier/less dense/fluffier), but as Buckshot once described it "spiky." I.e., the addition of an extra grain or so results in a sharp rise in pressure + the stuff is sensitive to temperature. It is also very accurate and dirt cheap, but not a "do-all" powder by any means.

Btw, I still have most of a 1lb. can of Ensign-Bickford EB-15 that was produced by Bofors, but its application (5.56 NATO?) is still a mystery to me. I've followed my own advice in the .243Win., and got accurate results with CB's, but also smudged cases. I'll have to retest this one someday.

[MtGun44]

Thanks for the info, much appreciate the education.

I have only used 846, and it works very 'normally' in .223 with
jacketed, so not much learning required.

May jump off on some more surplus one day.

Bill

[singleshotbuff]

FWIW my lot of IMR-7383 seems close to 4350 as well, at least in 7.5X55mm. Although as mentioned is much bulkier. In 8X57mm I couldn't even get the suggested starting load of 4350 into the case when using 7383. I had to reduce it SIGNIFICANTLY.

SSB

[singleshotbuff]

Maven,

As I reread your post, I noticed you mentioned temperature sensitivity with 7383. do you have any idea how sensitive it is?

For example, I have worked up what I feel is a safe load with a 150gr bullet and 7383 in my 7.5X55mm. The temp during the work up was 25-35 degrees. If I shoot this same load when it's 70 or so in the spring, am I headed for trouble? Should I rework this load when the weather is warmer?

I'd appreciate your input on this, I'm a bit skittish of this "quirky" powder.

Thanks

SSB

[Maven]

SSB, The bulk of my IMR 7383 use (with jacketed bullets) has been in the late Spring through early Autumn; i.e., when temps. were >70deg. In the .243Win. with 85 & 87gr. Sierra SP's and Hornady BTSP's, respectively, I got flattened primers at 42-42.5gr. I dropped back to 40.5gr., which pretty much eliminated the problem. Accuracy was unaffected and velocity was ~3,000fps, more than enough to punch paper. Btw, I toyed with using 7383 in the 8mm Mau. too (4350 data), but gave up when I had to continually reduce the charge so as to be able to seat the CB without compressing the powder. It seems to me that 7383 doesn't like [much] compression, high temperatures, or both. Reduced charges in warm-hot weather are the better way.

[Ricochet]

I like 7383 with the 185 grain Group Buy or Lee gas checked 8mm boolit. I fill it up to the base of the neck with a 3.7 cc Lee dipper. Seems like that's something like 42 grains, I'm not exactly sure. Seated to the middle of the second band on the boolit and crimped there with a Factory Crimp Die, lit with a CCI #34, it runs about 2100-2200 FPS in my various 8mms with mild pressures. I don't worry about temperature sensitivity with 7383 because none of my loads with it are "hot." Haven't noticed it as an issue. I don't know why it should be more temperature sensitive than other IMR powders, and I doubt that it is. With most bullets and cases I have, I can't stuff enough in for it to be hazardous, but with heavy-for-bore size bullets like 200+ grain .30 calibers you have to be more cautious. 3.7cc under a 200 grain cast boolit in 7.5x55 Swiss is too hot.

[BD]

One thing which is absolutely critical to keep in mind when looking at the "equivalent" powder data to get started is: the original use of the powder, and it's acceptence or rejection by the original purchaser. For instance: If you buy WC852, (a surplus 30-06 powder) and the seller states that the equivalant canister powder is 3031, REMEMBER- HE'S SAYING IT'S EQUIVALENT MORE OR LESS TO 3031 IN THE 30-06!
If you load it in a 6.5x55, all bets are off. No agency has loaded that powder in that cartridge and most likely no pressure data at all exists for that loading. If you buy a lot of WC820, (a surplus 30 carbine powder) and the manufacturer says the equivalent canister is H110, or AA#9, and that this lot was rejected for being "too fast", you can bet it's gonna be way faster than H110 in a larger case like the .44 mag. I don't think there is any way you can approach the use of any surplus powder outside of it's original intended use without a chronograph, unless you're talking about very low pressure uses like small charges of fast powder for cast boolit loads or surplus 50BMG powders in moderate bottle neck cased rifle loads. I'm not trying to put anyone off of surplus powders here. I'm just saying that there's no free lunch.
BD