The 44 Associates

[Matt_G]

Does anyone here happen to own a copy of the booklet compiled and printed by 44 Associate member Lawrence Newton in 1945?
Several folks over at the S&W forum have been looking for quite a while for a copy that could be scanned and posted online for all interested parties.
There is a thread here:
44-associates-44-special-data (http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/71827-44-associates-44-special-data.html)

No one has come up with a copy of that booklet yet (hereinafter referred to as the "Grail").
However, a lot of other older magazine articles and such has been accumulated and I am now hosting all these files on my web server.
In fact our own Dale53 supplied some of them via CD just yesterday. :)
There is a link to all of them in my signature.

I know there are many here who will enjoy reading these old articles.
If you have anything you would like to contribute, please feel free to send me a PM.
Especially if you happen to have a copy of the Grail. ;)

[mike454]

Posted a few pages on S&W forum.

[Bodydoc447]

Matt,
I have been perusing the .44 Special files you have hosted on your server. Thanks for putting them up. I really enjoy reading the old Rifleman articles a lot!

Doc

[Matt_G]

Thanks mike454!
Glad you enjoy them Bodydoc.

[MT Gianni]

Thanks, Matt great job.

[Dale53]

This is a GOOD THING Matt is doing. I hope that someone will step forward and offer a copy of the .44 Associates Newsletter so that it is not lost to the future.

If you have a copy or know someone who has a copy, please help us all out.

Dale53

[mike454]

Dale, don't know if you saw but I posted the only pages of any historical interest over at the S&W site and Matt now has them on his site.

[GLL]

All of the posted information is great BUT as Dale indicates we need the Newsletters ! I have asked about them on a semi-regular basis for the past several years but nobody has stepped forward with copies !

Jerry

[Dale53]

Actually (I just looked) Matt has posted a partial copy of a Newsletter. I wish it was the complete copy but...

Look at the first entry in Matt's blog:

http://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/44_Special_Articles/

Dale53

[Matt_G]

Dale is correct, I have posted a partial copy, however page 4 and 5 were swapped in order.
I have uploaded a new copy that has all 5 pages in the correct order.

One other note; the article titled S&W Triplelock and the 44 Special Cartridge.pdf was a bit blurry and hard to read.
I found another source for that article and he came thru today.
A new copy of that file has been uploaded and is much easier on the eyes.

[GLL]

Matt:

A couple years ago when I originally enhanced some of those articles I used Photoshop and posted them on the S&W Forum. Could we do the same enhancement for the Newsletter articles to make them easier to read?

I notice that 200 copies of the Newsletter were printed. Let's hope more examples turn up to be saved !
Thank you for consolidating all of this information and making it available to all !

Jerry

[mike454]

All of the posted information is great BUT as Dale indicates we need the Newsletters ! I have asked about them on a semi-regular basis for the past several years but nobody has stepped forward with copies !

Jerry

I have good reason to suspect that there were never any newsletters. I believe this loadbook to be the only publication of "the 44 associates"

[Matt_G]

Mike454 sent me the original scans of that 44 Associates booklet. I have created a pdf file from them and uploaded it to the server. It has replaced the file that was there and is a bit better quality.
Thanks Mike.


I have good reason to suspect that there were never any newsletters. I believe this loadbook to be the only publication of "the 44 associates"

I have a feeling you are exactly right Mike. I don't think there were any newsletters either. Just this compilation by Lawrence Newton.
I bet all those guys would have killed for a forum like this (or e-mail) to discuss their ideas in! ;-)
As it was, I bet they burned up a lot of stamps.

[Dale53]

Matt G;
Thanks for your work on this (and thanks to the original contributor, also).

It was interesting to me to see that these good people (the .44 Associates) pretty much knew all about what it takes to make good loads. Their suggestions on cylinder throats (bullet size) etc. are "state of the art" today. It seems that many have to relearn what the good people who went before us, already knew and practiced.

We are doing what we can to propagate the best information available today - that's one of our most important tasks.

Dale53

[GLL]

Matt & Mike:

Do we know any of the living "members" of the .44 Associates so we can get some idea of how many people were interacting with each other? Are we talking one or two dozen individuals or many? Even though they printed 200 copies of the loading booklet it may have been a very small group ! ?

Jerry

[mike454]

I posted on another site a few days ago that nothing can be inferred from the 200 copy print run. Lawrence Newton was selling copies of the load book for $1 in the back of the Rifleman. My guess is that Newton would be the only one who really would have had an idea.

[Matt_G]

If you look at the fifth page of the pdf file, you'll see the list of sources for all the data in the booklet.
I think it is a pretty safe bet that those individuals listed there were all members of the 44 Associates.
Now whether that is all the members or not, who knows.
By my count there are 14 individuals in that list.
Gordon C. Boser
George V. Chapman
Eric M. Farr
Elmer Keith
J.W. Landon
R.G. Mosgrove
F.C. Ness
Lawrence I. Newton
Capt. Philip B. Sharpe
J.A. Smith
George W. Spence
Ray C. Thompson
Norman P. White
O.L. Yancey

If there were other members, they didn't contribute any data that was included in this booklet.
FWIW...

[stbryson]

Hello,

Also on page IV (fifth page of the pdf file), it states (emphasis is mine):

"This compilation could not have been made without the ready cooperation of the several score big bore shooters who call themselves informally "44 ASSOCIATES". To each of them personally the editor acknowledges his debt and tenders sincere thanks, and especially is he grateful to those whose major contributions are evidenced by individual listing in the Source Identification table above."

That would suggest to me that there were more members than the fourteen listed. Also, two of the sources were "Assoc. - Reliable data from 44 Associates files" and "Auth. - Competent ballistic authorities who prefer anonymity". So, perhaps other unnamed individuals contributed, also.

At least two originals have survived (I am sure there are more out there):

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q300/stbryson/Smith%20and%20Wesson%20Literature/scan0033-1.jpg

Bob Nichols was Arms and Ammunition Editor for Field & Stream magazine. He also authored The Secrets of Double-Action Shooting, copyright 1950. I don't know if he was a member of "44 Associates", but he received a copy of the list:

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q300/stbryson/Smith%20and%20Wesson%20Literature/scan0034.jpg
http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q300/stbryson/Smith%20and%20Wesson%20Literature/scan0035.jpg


Take care,

Steve Bryson

"Right is right, even if no one does it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone does it."

[longhorn]

I swear I read in a John Lachuck (sp?) article once that he was a member of the ".44 Associates" and mentioned newsletters----I'll have to do some searching. Is Lachuck still with us?

[mike454]

Nice condition original Steve! Here's a bit about 44 associates from Lachuk article from 1990 G&A special issue "Magnum Handguns"http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q13/mike454_album/lachuk.jpg

[Matt_G]

Thanks for posting that information Steve.
I totally missed that "several score" statement.
Didn't read carefully enough!

Item 2: Our own Zac0419 took an online article by Ross Seyfried on the Lipsey Ruger Flattop and made a pdf file of it.
I have uploaded that pdf file to the server.
Dale53 had reminded me of that article a while back by giving me a link, but I kind of forgot about it and didn't follow through. [smilie=b:

Item 3: If anyone has trouble getting the pdf files to show properly in your browser, try right clicking the link and clicking "save link as" or "save target as" and then saving the file to your local hard drive and opening it from there.

[Von Dingo]

Mattg,

Thanks for doing this, been watching it for awhile, good stuff! Thank you

stbryson,

Did you notice that the Bob Nichols booklet is dated on, or a day after depending on how you view the datline, VJ day?

[stbryson]

Hello,

44 Associates "Declaration of Principles":

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q300/stbryson/Smith%20and%20Wesson%20Literature/scan0008.jpg

Take care,

Steve Bryson

[Matt_G]

Bumping this thread in the hopes that newer members not only will enjoy the data but may also be able to contribute.

[jrmartin1964]

I posted the only pages of any historical interest over at the S&W site and Matt now has them on his site.

Personally, I would find ALL the pages historically interesting. I, of course, fully understand the data held within those pages is horribly outdated and should not be relied upon today for handloading purposes, but I can't be the only one who would find their contents of interest - an insight into the trials and experimentations of those who walked before us - and eagerly await the day when a complete copy of the 44 Associates' data is digitally preserved and made available for study.

[Outpost75]

I met Eric Farr when I was working at Ruger in the mid-1980s and visited him at his home in Greenville,TN. He had an indoor 25 yard tunnel in his basement and a well equipped shop. He was an advocate of machining bullet bases absolutely square using a fixture with a Wilson case trimmer, protecting bases of plainbased bullets with TiO2, fitting bullets precisely to cylinder throats, using a straight-line Wilson type bullet seater and what we now call Taylor throating. His loads would shoot 2" ten-shot groups at 100 yards from the Ruger SBH revolvers we prepped, firing from a machine rest.

Another member of the .44 Associates Eric introduced me to was Don Tag, who at the time headed the tank gun section at CSTA, Aberdeen Proving Ground. Don and I worked on some interesting projects, but all in 120mm ammunition.

[Forrest r]

I met Eric Farr when I was working at Ruger in the mid-1980s and visited him at his home in Greenville,TN. He had an indoor 25 yard tunnel in his basement and a well equipped shop. He was an advocate of machining bullet bases absolutely square using a fixture with a Wilson case trimmer, protecting bases of plainbased bullets with TiO2, fitting bullets precisely to cylinder throats, using a straight-line Wilson type bullet seater and what we now call Taylor throating. His loads would shoot 2" ten-shot groups at 100 yards from the Ruger SBH revolvers we prepped, firing from a machine rest.

Perhaps he should quit playing around with the bullet bases.

Another member of the .44 Associates Eric introduced me to was Don Tag, who at the time headed the tank gun section at CSTA, Aberdeen Proving Ground. Don and I worked on some interesting projects, but all in 120mm ammunition.

Our very own 44man can shoot 1" groups @ 100yds all day long with a 357. Shoot 1 1/2" groups @ 100yds with a 44mag standing/offhand. And shoot 2 1/2" groups at 500yds with a 44mag laying down.

That poor guy went thru all that trouble and special reloading equipment only to get 2" groups @ 100yds with a machine rest. What's wrong with this picture???

[Outpost75]

Our very own 44man can shoot 1" groups @ 100yds all day long with a 357. Shoot 1 1/2" groups @ 100yds with a 44mag standing/offhand. And shoot 2 1/2" groups at 500yds with a 44mag laying down.

That poor guy went thru all that trouble and special reloading equipment only to get 2" groups @ 100yds with a machine rest. What's wrong with this picture???

Erik did it on demand over long, continuous strings of fire in front of witnesses, without excluding any data.

[Forrest r]

Erik did it on demand over long, continuous strings of fire in front of witnesses, without excluding any data.

I have no doubt someone with that skill set has the ability to do exactly what you posted. I'm just surprised that someone with all that knowledge and equipment is only getting 2" groups @ 100yds with a machine rest when there's people like 44man posting he shoots 2 1/2" groups @ 500yds lay on his back????

[frank505]

Kent Lamont was getting one inch groups at a hundred yards from 8 3/8s model 29s that were scoped. And did it with the Keith bullet. I believe this was written in Handloader Digest.

[Dale53]

Kent Lamont was the real deal. He used to set up at the Indianapolis Gun show. I talked to him on several occasions. He was a very knowledgeable shooter and reloader.


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[35remington]

Proving super accuracy as an average representative of what the gun will really do is easy. Put multiple small groups on the same piece of paper so it looks like it was done intentionally, one small group after another, and have witnesses sign it.

One little group on separate pieces of paper looks like one is cherry picking the best groups and ignoring all the other groups that don't look so good. Which is what is probably happening.

Proving super accuracy is so easy that no one does it in a believable way. Which pretty much confirms that super accuracy claims usually are not believed, and that super accuracy really isn't that easy or as common as the claims suggest.

[Outpost75]

I have no doubt someone with that skill set has the ability to do exactly what you posted. I'm just surprised that someone with all that knowledge and equipment is only getting 2" groups @ 100yds with a machine rest when there's people like 44man posting he shoots 2 1/2" groups @ 500yds lay on his back????

Laser designators and precision-guided munitions hadn't been invented yet.

[Dale53]

Me, I have been happy with keeping most of my shots on a playing card at 100 yards off a rest with my scoped .44 magnum revolvers.


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[HP9MM]

What about those "duplex" and "triplex" loads! Anyone want to try those or even one of those and report back on its performance?

[shoot-n-lead]

What about those "duplex" and "triplex" loads! Anyone want to try those or even one of those and report back on its performance?

You go ahead and try them, check back with us on the results.

I quit diddling in canoe, years ago.

[35remington]

Dale, that is good shooting.

[Dale53]

Thanks for the kind words, .35!


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[Piedmont]

Outpost75, What bullet shape did Mr. Farr find shot best at 100 yards? Did he prefer something else at 25 yards, or did he just stick to one for all ranges?

[Outpost75]

Outpost75, What bullet shape did Mr. Farr find shot best at 100 yards? Did he prefer something else at 25 yards, or did he just stick to one for all ranges?

He used San Diego H&G original Keith similar to #429421 cast 1:20 tin-lead pretty much across the board. Did NOT like "hard" bullets. Sized bullets nose first in reloading press in home made die similar to Lee push-through, used straight-line Wilson type seater in arbor press, neck turned cases with uniformed flash holes and primer pockets, Remington primers, faced bullet bases protected with TiO2, own lube blend of beeswax and STP, IMR4227 powder to fill case giving base support for bullet with 1/8" compression as if loading black powder, no wad, added "booster" of 3Fg Goex under the 4227, about 5% of charge.

[Piedmont]

Thanks! This should put to rest a board blowhard or two who say Keith bullets won't shoot, but of course it will not.

[Outpost75]

Thanks! This should put to rest a board blowhard or two who say Keith bullets won't shoot, but of course it will not.

Important feature of original Keith bullets was full diameter front driving band which could be sized exactly to fit cylinder throats. Later versions adapted by Lyman have a reduced diameter front band which is smaller than the driving bands, so bullets may or may not fit your gun... But in doing so Lyman avoided complaints from people who didn't understand how to size and fit bullets properly, who had problems chambering larger diameter bullets in their revolvers.

Another feature was large lubricant grooves having a flat bottom and angled sides, which held more lube, important back in the days when bullet lubes were less effective. The deep lubricating grooves also aided the base of the bullet upsetting upon discharge, providing what Erik liked to call a "greasegun effect" ensuring that the lube would actually coat the bore. He liked soft lubes and disliked hard ones. Erik was the first person I knew to talk about "lube purging" effect upon accuracy. His feeling was that if recovered bullets still had intact lube in the grooves the bullets and lube were too hard and no good. "You want the lube left in the barrel, not left on the bullet to imbalance it."

The smaller, modern, round-bottomed lube grooves provide a stronger base to resist upset in heavy magnum loads, but may also contribute to leading when excessively hard bullets are used with then fail to seal the powder gases behind the bullet. Keith was not one who favored "hard" alloys. He liked 1:20 or 1:16 tin-lead.

In my experience most leading of revolver bullets is caused by bullets which are too hard and don't fit, rather than by "soft" bullets which are over-driven at the sought pressure and velocity. I use 1:30 for all of my hunting loads in .38 Special, .357 Mag., .44-40 and .44 Magnum. I do limit velocities to about 1080 fps in revolvers and 1350-1400 fps in handgun caliber carbines. I don't find heavier loads necessary in the Eastern woods I hunt because I only rarely shoot beyond 50 yards with a revol ver or 100 yards with a rifle. There are no predators here big enough to eat 'cha either. Deer, coyotes, hogs, and VERY rarely maybe a black bear.

I don't use gaschecks because within these limits they are unnecessary and only serve top increase cost. I have no issues with leading using Lee Liquid Alox or 45-45-10 in recreational revolver ammo. I do use pan lubing with 1:5 ATF-beeswax for .44-40 and .44 Magnum rifle hunting loads or 50-50 Goya Manteca and beeswax, for black powder cowboy ammo. I size all of my .44-40 bullets to .430" and .44 Magnums to .432" to fit cylinder throats of my Rugers and S&W 544.

[JAC43]

Old thread, but question to smarter folks than me...what do you think the number .335 denotes in the photo? The header of the page is cut off. Seating depth?
https://i.postimg.cc/gxGSLPQX/44-Associates-1.jpg (https://postimg.cc/gxGSLPQX)

[Matt_G]

Yeah, it is unfortunate that the header is cutoff.
99.99% sure you are correct.
The .335 denotes how much of the bullet is inside the case.
Note 12 on page 3 states that seating depth is shown in the tables.

[JAC43]

Thanks, and a debt of gratitude to you for hosting all those documents. I don't know how many times I've referred back to them!

[ddixie884]

Yes, THANX Matt.............

[Matt_G]

I am glad folks find it useful.
It is just a tiny way I can give back to the community.

[JoeJames]

Thanks. I thought I was the only 44 Special nut.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

The January 1967 article by Bob Hagel in Handloader has an interesting bit in it about Bob being caught out at the end of WWII without enough reloading supplies during the primer and powder shortage. The more things change......

[Nueces]

An older thread that is a perfect example of why I treasure this board. I first heard of the 44 Associates from a Skeeter Skelton article in, I'm sure, Shooting Times. I have always wished that they had called themselves The 44 Specialists.

As to the question of the existence of some form of regular communication among them, Skeeter mentioned in his article that such did exist, containing, as he put it, 44 loads and jokes about 357 shooters. We may someday see some of these if the 'old man's' stuff ever falls into the hands of someone who knows what he has.

[Matt_G]

Nueces,
Check this site (http://darkcanyon.net/skeeter_skelton.htm) out.

[Electrod47]

All the .44 special stuff at Goodrich I printed up and put in my ".44 Binder " years ago along with everything I could find in print to add.
A fascinating topic stoked many years ago by Skeeter Skelton. Find a lot of his stuff at Darkcanyon.com

[Nueces]

Nueces,
Check this site (http://darkcanyon.net/skeeter_skelton.htm) out.

Thanks much, I already have that one saved. I think I also kept the original articles, generally cut from the magazines to save space. Right there in the lead article, is the quote I remembered, "They already had their guns, and interchanged loading information and jokes about .357 shooters in a regular newsletter."

So, I think we may yet have a chance of happening across some of those. Had I been a 44 Associate, I'd still have them. I even have a file of Bob Brownell's original gunsmith newsletters, from which the Gunsmith Kinks books grew.

Years ago, I had to fire the ex to gain room for my stuff!