Type 38

[tbierley]

I walked into a small pawn shop Wedsday and there it was a Type 38 in a old black stock. I asked the man to look at the Type 38 and he said what the 38 colt. He thought it was a mauser. The rifle came home with me. I cleaned the stock with MeanGreen an torn it down and found it is a Series 23 and all matching also the dust cover. The bore is being cleaned with Mean Green. The bayonet was also on it. Got it for 160 OTD. Now my Type 99 has a big brother. Here are some pics please help with any info on it and the bayonet. Thanks.

[swheeler]

I'd say you did very well for 160 bucks having the dust cover and bayonet with the rifle. A while back I found a 99 that looks like yours in a pawn shop and gave 150 for it, no bayonet, no dust cover and ground mum, mine has a wooden butt plate.

[tbierley]

I was very dirty it had not been cleaned in 50 yrs. It also came with the cleaning rod. The Type 99 I got I gave 140 OTD about 5yrs ago. Any info on what the Type 38 going for now. I am very happy with the fine.

[swheeler]

I was very dirty it had not been cleaned in 50 yrs. It also came with the cleaning rod. The Type 99 I got I gave 140 OTD about 5yrs ago. Any info on what the Type 38 going for now. I am very happy with the fine.

I use a homade foul out on the barrels of milsurps, never ceases to amaze me at the amount of fouling you get out of one. The 7.7 was no exception but cleaned up nicely, accurate rifle and I like the sights a lot they seem to just work better for my eyes. Nice find, you did good!:bigsmyl2:

[tbierley]

I would like to know what the rifle an the bayonet are worth today

[swheeler]

I would like to know what the rifle an the bayonet are worth today

You will have to surf the internet to get an idea, Gunbroker would be a place to start.

[gew98]

Why on earth would a person take a collectible rifle with unsanded stock and goober it up with mean green ?. You have to know that hits value hard on a military rifle to ANY collector. I have seen the results of mean green where it made the wood mushy .And of course just like using any chemical cleaner on it takes the original aged sheen away forever giving it that look of having been bubba'd up.

[tbierley]

I bib not take the finish off the stock. I mixed it with water and cleaned the dirt off the stock. Yes I know what it will do the wood.

[skeet1]

tbierley,
It looks to me that you did that rifle a lot of good with your mixture of mean green and water. You and actually see that the stock is made of wood now. I think you only made a good rifle better. Lets us know how it shoots.

Ken

[tbierley]

Thank you skeet1 the rifle looked like it was last cleaned on some small island. All I did was to mix half and half and washed the stock down and cleaned the dirt from wood. I can now see writing on the wood. I also cleaned the bore with it but not mixed. Thanks.

[Janoosh]

Writing on the wood? As in burned in writing? Most arisakas with burned in writing are trainers. Is the butt stock two pieces? Is there rifling in the bore? Check the rifle over.... And over...... And over again, please. Seek more info. No scare tactics here. The japanese had training rifles for students in many different configurations. Some can use "real" ammo. Most cannot. The trainers look exactly like the real thing. But you cannot use real ammo. That is what the lettering on the stock usually says.

[skeet1]

tbierley,
From what little I can see in the closeup photo of the action, this is not a trainer. Trainers were crudely built and with little attention made to detail. Also according to Frank dr Hass in "Bolt Action Rifles" he says that of the training rifles he has examined, the barrels a smooth bore and not rifled. The rifle I see is very nicely made and polished. I don't remember if the Japs numbed the bolts or not but if they did and this rifle has matching numbers it is probably safe to shoot however you might want to get the headspace checked.

Ken

[Dframe]

Looks good. If you can post some pix much closer, I'll have a friend of mine look them over. He's quite knowledgable on Arisakas. He may be able to give you some additional information

[tbierley]

Here are some pics. In the disassmble I found two sets on numbers they are on small parts. But the receiver numbers not the same. The number 105 are on the stock and small parts and on the bottom of the receiver. In the photos that I have posted you will see the numbers. Please help me with this. The rifle has not been taken apart because the rusted tight.

[tbierley]

Here are some more pics. Thanks his year say thank to a Vet. Because freedom is not free.

[gew98]

Previous to 1943 Arisaka type 38 & 99 rifles were matched by a three digit assembly number which will be located underneath the woodline on the receiver and barrel and on all small parts.
And yes a good many type 30 and 38 rifles had their mums defaced and were given to schools for training.... some may be safe to fire but if school marked beware just in case.
Is the mum intact ?.
As well to reiterate such invasive cleaning of any collectible rifle DOES hurt value. I have seen scores of once proud and even matching rifles with wood that was water/soap Acetone/chemically "cleaned" and such work though well intentioned shed loads of dollars of value as well as giving a formerly original wood "patina" finish the earl shive like treatment. I've seen a couple minty matching Luger pistols that had their original oil darkened matching grips scrubbed wiht "cleaners" and you can bet it hurt their values.
As a long time collector of military rifles my advice has always been better to do nothing than take a gamble "cleaning" wood as it may cost you alot of heartache when you find out that well intentioned cleaning robbed alot of value off an old war horse.
The most I will ever do and or advise is to gently rub on by hand cheap vaseline in a warm environment and then rub it off in short order with an old towel or cotton shirt/sheet. You will be amazed at the verdris/dirt that will come off and not effect the original finish and aged patina. Anything else is just wrong. But in the end it's the owners' to what they will with.

[gew98]

Here are some pics. In the disassmble I found two sets on numbers they are on small parts. But the receiver numbers not the same. The number 105 are on the stock and small parts and on the bottom of the receiver. In the photos that I have posted you will see the numbers. Please help me with this. The rifle has not been taken apart because the rusted tight.

The # 105 is the measure. Seeing #175 & #176 shows these parts to be mismatch to that rifle. Bolt serial should be on the bottom flat of the bolt root.
I have encountered more type38's with their safeties jammed up where the bolt was impossible to operate. By tapping with a small plastic hammer on the safety knob in such instances it would 'pop' itself back in place and rifle thus would 'open up'. I had more than one fellow then think it was "rusted shut" , but such was not the case.
The type 38 rifles I had when I was into jap rifles all shot well with 160 gn bullets... and they really liked pulled 6,5 carcano projectiles.

[tbierley]

All the parts were marked with 105 or 176. I cleaned the bore and there is rifling. I checked headspace it is also good. The rifle was cleaned only to remove grim that was not in the wood. The numbers that I talking about were under the upper hand guard. That was number 105. And I also have been collecting military small arms for years. Thanks for all the help. I collect US small arms not Japan military small arms. As you see the rifle is the way I got it. Thanks again.

[skeet1]

tbierley,
I guess I am amazed that the soldier that carried that 38 could drag it through the dirt and mud stand guard duty in the rain and get it soaked but when it comes to you cleaning the dirt off that he failed to do, somehow that is damaging. There is a difference between cleaning and refinishing if done with care.

Ken

[gew98]

tbierley,
. There is a difference between cleaning and refinishing if done with care.

Ken

There is a difference in what you use and how you go about doing it as well.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I have one, complete with iintact Crysamthmum and a Quillion bayonet. Mine was in great condition, but I paid a lot more for it than you did. It was a private sale, and I picked it up on a Sunday. We went to a club armourer's house to do the transfer. I locked it in my big Beretta locking gunbag, stuck it behind the back seat of the truck and locked it to the floor under the seat.

I was killing an hour the next morning and went into a gunshop. Walked out minutes later with a bag of 100 Privi Partisan brass and a set of Lee dies and a couple hundred bulk bullets. WOW! I thought that I would have all sorts of trouble setting up for it. My mate casts for the 6.5 Swede, I will cadge/swap a few boolits off him and see how it goes.

[Ed in North Texas]

Regarding cleaning stocks, I learned on the British Militaria site that Boiled Linseed Oil (BLO) will not only add to the stock protection by adding another coat of the same finish material most military rifles had to begin with (already knew that), but it will remove dirt in the process without removing any age related patina (hadn't thought of BLO as a cleaning material before).

I've also successfully used Mineral Spirits to clean a stock without damaging the finish or patina. Just don't scrub the stock. Then add the BLO.

Ed

[Four Fingers of Death]

I have a friend who competes with his family in Military Rifle Discipline here in Australia. They use beautiful Springfields (good ones are very rare here, in fact they are rare in any sort of condition).

He refurbishes the stocks that are plugged with oil, etc in the bath (when the wife is at work!). They use sugar soap in the water. Sugar soap is used to cut grease off walls before painting. It comes in a powder form and more recently in liquid form. It is an old product and I don't know what you call it or a similar product in the States. It cuts grease and oil incredibly well.

There are special wood oils available now that are similar to tung oil, linseed, etc in feel and finish, but have polymer imbedded or suspended in them. You end up with a beautiful old fashioned finish, but the wood is now water proof. This is definetly the way to go.

[Ed in North Texas]

SNIP
He refurbishes the stocks that are plugged with oil, etc in the bath (when the wife is at work!). They use sugar soap in the water. Sugar soap is used to cut grease off walls before painting. It comes in a powder form and more recently in liquid form. It is an old product and I don't know what you call it or a similar product in the States. It cuts grease and oil incredibly well. SNIP


Sounds like Tri-Sodium Phosphate (TSP) which used to be commonly used for cleaning walls before painting here in the US. I'm not sure the product currently available here is actually TSP (or maybe some of the "green" states have cut off the real TSP). Phosphates have been a dirty word in the US for a long time now.

Personally, I wouldn't put any rifle wood in water, but particularly not any of my antiques (Sniders, M-H or RBs). But not all older firearms are "collectibles", at least today. I'm sure the guy who chopped up the carbine stock (a notch for every deer taken with it), on a US Krag I have, never thought of the Krag as anything but an old surplus rifle. The rifle itself is an old rifle cut down to carbine length, but it then had a real carbine stock put on. If the stock were still original today, it would be worth just about what the entire rifle is worth. Oh well, it still shoots well.

I've used the polymer enhanced products on furniture and floors and love them for these uses. I still use BLO on stocks which started life with BLO*. It seals the wood (if used on all surfaces) and is renewable just by adding another coat rubbed in. If a rifle has survived well over 100 years with BLO (I have several), why change success to a product which is not as easily renewable as BLO? Just my $0.02 USD, my way isn't the only way.

* Note that modern commercial arms generally haven't left the factory with a BLO finish in a number of decades now. My comments do not apply to these firearms.

[Multigunner]

The local home supply stores at one time sold only the Phosphate free substitute for TSP, but now the original TSP is all they carry.

Raw Linseed oil rather than boiled linseed oil was what was originally used for US and European gunstocks, but the Japanese used a laquer that contained a natural insecticide.
The Laquer is extremely toxic , but in its dried and cured state its inactive, the toxin can't transfer to the skin of your hands.
I have heard of people becoming ill if while sanding away this laquer they inhaled even a tiny amount of the dust. This laquer was also used for furniture and wood boxes, which is where I first heard of it being toxic.

Some Japanese rifles I've examined appear to have had the laquer on outside surfaces roughly scraped away and brown boot polished rubbed into the wood. This may have been done to make the rifle less visible in low light operations. The laquer remained untouched under the handguards.
I've heard of Garand stocks being darkened with boot polish for night operations.

[Shiori357]

Regarding identify Arisaka Rifle & Bayonet, see link below;

http://www.radix.net/~bbrown/japanese_markings.html

I own two Arisaka type 99 early production and several "Type 30" bayonets.
At your first pic, your bayonet made by National Denki, other name of Matsu****a (current as you known Panasonic, inc.) under Kokura arsenal supervised, you may check for more detail which build year range from serial number on hilt of your bayonet.

Your Type38 as well, I could not clearly found series mark in front of serial number, however it is build at Kokura arsenal, but also could not see next to the Kokura stamp on your posted pic.

In general information, Type38 was build for against Russian cavalierly at north part of China in 1930 era, safety knob and dust cover are design by same concept, using under below 30F at dusty sandy land with bulky grove on, extended length of this rifle and bayonet are just need reach to knock down Russian Cavalierly, that's why way too long and heavy for most of Japanese infantry men's back in the day.

Type99 was build at 1939, original one was same length of Type38, (Arisaka Type99 long rifle)
It been getting shorter right away, because it was not necessary length at WWII pacific ocean island battles.

6.5X50mm ammo was not powerful enough at China mainland war.
Chinese had 7.92x58mm (8mm Mauser) Kar98 Mauser and they brake cray wall easily at front line at time.

6.5x50mm (6.5mm Arisaka) is highest power in this case size at that era, however was not powerful enough, just like 223 Rem at Iraq today.

Both cartridges are very good for less than 300 yard range jungle battle / rapid fire shoot.

7.7x58mm (7.7mm Arisaka) size is just between 30/06 to 7.62mm Nato (308Win).
It was copy from .303 British, sister of our US.30 cal 1917 service rifle (Pattern17 or P17)

Nariakira Arisaka was design Type30, but not Type38 and Type99.
It is design by Kijiro Nanbu, however we call Arisaka Rifle those Japanese infantry rifles today.

I would like to share little of my knowledge with all folks in this forum.

Shiori Okamoto

[Shiori357]

In front of your serial number is, " ム" pronounced " MU"
Just follow my post.

Shiori
　

[bruce drake]

Shiori,

Thanks for posting. I own several Arisakas (both T38s and T99s) and I enjoy the simplicity and accuracy of the rifles.

Sometimes people forget that Japan has an excellent background in creating beautiful firearms. The bluing and metal to wood fit on some of my T38s would equal a Beretta or FN custom job.

Now, on some of my T99s, they can look a bit rough, but they are still quite accurate even if they are scow-bottom ugly.

Bruce

[Four Fingers of Death]

7.7x58mm (7.7mm Arisaka) size is just between 30/06 to 7.62mm Nato (308Win).
It was copy from .303 British, sister of our US.30 cal 1917 service rifle (Pattern17 or P17)

Shiori Okamoto

My Dad was an infantryman in WW2 in New Guinea for several years. After returning to Australia, he was involved in the beach assault at Balikpapan in Borneo and later on was with the troops that captured the airstrip and silenced the big gun emplacements there (took a couple of days to do that apparently). The war finished after he fought at Balikpapan and was waiting to attack the main Japanese force, which had assembled to the north at Samarinda. He was mightily relieved as most of his mates were gone and he felt that he had used up all his luck and a few other guy's share as well. God bless the atom bomb, he used to say.

He stated when I was a lad that the Japanese were able to use the Aussie's 303 ammunition in a pinch. I had forgotten about this. This sounds reasonable, as the Communist made moartars could swallow our rounds, but not vice versa apparently. Is this the case (no pun intended)?

[Rogue6]

I'm not an expert, but...

In regards to the bayonet, the circle surrounded by three half-circles is Koishikawa Arsenal (Tokyo) or Kokura Arsenal, but with the “Arrow with M” marking it means National Denki (National Electric) under Kokura Arsenal supervision.

On the rifle, again it’s either Koishikawa or Kokura arsenal, and the partial triangle in a circle makes it a Series 23, which was manufactured somewhere between 1933 to 1940, probably by Kokura Arsenal. I can’t make out that third marking on the receiver well enough to interpret it.