Burnt out on casting and reloading

[Jamesconn]

I can get j-word bullets to work but not boolits after much measuring trial and error they still have alot of jams everything seems right to my untrained eyes.
My father calls cast ammo **** and won't let me make anymore cause he is afraid they will damage his gun

I honestly don't know what's wrong with them I can't see any problems and they won't work

I've spent close to a year researching and trial and error spending what little money I have on equipment and supplies ( everybody i know says I have an unhealthy obsession with it) and this venture isn't fruitful

[btroj]

Something must be wrong, cast can shoot well in almost any gun.

Best thing to do is find someone near you who shoots cast and shoots them well. Hand son learning is a huge part of the learning in my opinion. Sometimes it is a minor little detail that makes or breaks you.

Do not get discouraged. You just need a local mentor.

[Jamesconn]

The nearest one is 5 hours away

[Ickisrulz]

Take a break from it for awhile. Load jacketed if that's what works for you right now. Shoot .22s., etc.

When you are rested come back...start from scratch...research...ask questions and things will work out.

You can't get much done when frustrated.

[btroj]

That, my friend, sucks.
I was fortunate to have a father in law who gave me the basics well enough for me to have sucess. From there I branched out, tried different things, and have been pretty successful.

What calibers are you trying? Some just aren't cast friendly. YOu also need to have realistic expectations at first.

I just hate seeing people get frustrated. It is going to happen from time to time but I don't want to see you give up.

[jameslovesjammie]

I'm sure you did, but I just have to ask. Did you clean the bore down to the metal before switching between jacketed and boolits? That has always made a HUGE difference for me.

[Jamesconn]

I'm trying to work with 9mm in a CZ75b I know 9mm is hard and pistols are more picky than revolvers but that's the gun dad bought and I can't buy my own

[FrontSite]

Jameaconn,
I had a CZ75B and loaded cast (124Gr. Lee) Never had a whole lot of luck with finding accurate loads but they did improve somewhat when I went to a really hard cast bullet. Circumstances made me sell the CZ and Ive been trying to replace it since then. I do understand that the 9MM is one of the most challenging to load cast. You have a real chore before you, should you find the key to supreme accuracy in the 9mm please share it with us.

[a.squibload]

Just read your post, I have read here about 9mm,
seems to be one of the most finicky cartridges for cast.
Good advice to give it a rest (for a little while), then
search here for 9mm reloading.
Probably not just the boolit giving you trouble.

If I can find that thread I was reading I'll post the link here,
got to be a combination that will work for your gun.

[btroj]

Don't get down on fast after only trying 9mm. You picked a tough place to start.

In time you will be ale to get another gun. A 357 revolver is always a good choice. I can't thing of many things easier to make work than a 38 special in a revolver.

You are young, many years of loading ahead of you.

[Springfield]

There are many kinds of "jams" in auto pistols, maybe with some more info we can help figure out what is going wrong.

[clodhopper]

I recently got rid of a 9mm because I could not get it to shoot cast to my liking.

[happy7]

Alright, maybe you are really ready to quit, and that is fine. But if not, let me try to get a better picture of what is not working for you.

So you are saying that your main problem is that the cast bullets will not cycle properly? Or is it that they don't shoot accurately? Or is it that they lead your barrel?

If it is that they are not feeding, what type(s) of problem are you having? Failure to feed? Failure to eject?, Etc?

If it is failure to feed, have you taken the barrel out of the gun to see if the cast tipped cartridge will chamber easily?

As I see it, if you are having cycling problems, then cast is most likely to cause a problem with feeding. That could be due to several things. One is if you aren't flaring the case mouth enough, then the case will shave lead and if that builds up in front of the case rim, the pistol will not go into battery. Another issue is that the bullets could be too big in diameter. If this is the case, they may just be a tight fit. This can also be dangerous and cause high pressures. Another problem could be caused if the profile of the nose of the bullet is such that it contacts the rifling in the barrel. If this is the case you may need to seat the bullet deaper. However, be careful here, because if you seat deeper, you will need to reduce your powder charge to avoid an increase in pressure due to decreased powder volume.

Well those are just some quick ideas. I would be surprised if, given more information, the members here couldn't lead you through some troubleshooting to get you to where boolits are running through your dad's piece with ease.

Oh, one last tip is that is it usually best to waterdrop for the 9mm so that you can get a good hard bullet. Don't forget, it takes a couple weeks for the bullets to harden once you waterdrop.

[Bullwolf]

Dunno if it helps, but my CZ-75 clone, a TZ-75 Tanfoglio Italian copy shoots the Lee cast 124grain TL 9mm really really nice.

I had to completely remove any trace of copper fouling from the barrel first however, and it looks almost like the bore has been polished now.

I shoot a somewhat hard alloy tumble lubed boolit, but that's more a testament of my thrifty nature and laziness than anything else. Most of my alloy was recovered Printing Mono-type that I have cut with wheel weight lead to stretch it out.

I don't think a really hard alloy is a requirement for 9mm. It's just easier to load and not swage down a harder boolit, so it can help eliminate a few potential problems.

A few suggestions:

Read and then re-read MtGun44's sticky for Setting up for boolits in a new 9mm
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=121737

Be careful and watch for signs of boolit swaging if using a Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die with cast in this caliber.

Pull a loaded round and measure it, and make sure you are not swaging down your loaded bullets at any point in your loading process

Try a medium rate burning powder, such as Unique.

Don't overcrimp your loaded boolits.

Watch your overall cartridge length. Take a look at whats feeding well for your j-word bullets, and attempt to copy that.

Most cast boolit feeding failures are related to boolit over all length, or unsized rounds that wont chamber in your gun. Are you sizing your boolits, or just using them as cast?

You could get a case gauge, or just use your barrel as a go, or no go gauge.
(just using the barrel is free too!)

Perhaps it's a sizing issue? If you are casting with some variance in temperature or style you can get occasional boolits that are too large for your caliber. Often boolits that are larger than .358 or .359 in extreme cases will not chamber in your typical 9mm barrel.

If If I hamfist all 3 handles on a Lee 6 banger mold, I can make a few casts that are pretty large, but they will normally be finned, and pretty obvious if I do so. Still all it takes is a few boolits that are cast with the mold not completely closed, or some casting slag between the blocks to make a couple of big ones in the pile.

If you have slugged your barrel, and know what size you need for this gun in 9mm you could pick up an inexpensive (16-17 dollar) Lee push through sizer in say .358 and size everything to a consistent size. Then you know all your boolits will be the right size, and none will be too fat and cause a failures to chamber. You will really spot the big ones this way too, as they will take quite a bit more effort to size and they look silly when you size all the tumble lube grooves off.

Test em all in the removed barrel for clearance and head space before you declare them good to go, for a final quality control step.

Above all remember make it fun, its not supposed to be like work. What others have said holds true here. If its frustrating you, step away from it and come back and attack it later from another angle. If you have a friend who can check out what you are doing, let him take a look at it too. Sometimes different people approach problems from completely different directions, and will give you a unique perspective as to what may be going wrong.

Sorry that your father isn't being supportive and is so down on cast boolits, but many people have strange prejudices when it comes to lead. If he hasn't ever seen them work, how would he know any better though? I was fortunate enough to have a grandfather who was interested in melting lead, and reloading and other very supportive relatives, who were also into shooting and reloading.

Still I see many people who scoff at the idea of shooting the lead boolit. It can be done with relatively no hassle, and it's very cheap and effective too. Just don't give up! The feeling of satisfaction when you make it work, and can inexpensively shoot your own boolits will be worth it.


- Bullwolf

[Love Life]

James- All I can say is try speed green. I cast boolits from clip on wheel weight alloy all the way to pure lino alloy and had issues. Size was right. Alloy/s were more than right. The biggest difference was lube. If Bullshop has none send me a PM and we can work some details for me to send you a small (I'm hoarding my speed green) amount of speed green to try. Also I can send you some PB gas checks for the 9mm. I use them when using other lubes in 9mm to avoid the whole reinventing the wheel thing.

Also FWFL lube worked very well.

[lead-1]

The 9mm gives me fits even in j-words and I was having no luck with cast at all. Remember, only change one thing at a time to try something different.
When I finally got the size right the load still didn't want to work and I figured out that my pistol had a chamber right on the dimension numbers so the last thing for me was to shorten the over all length of the cartridge and that was the answer, they worked fine.
I'm using the LEE 356-120TC boolit with 45-45-10 tumble lube. Don't give up on casting because of the 9mm being finicky

[nicholst55]

James, don't give up! Take a break for a while, then try to diagnose your problem(s). You know you'll get help here!

Try to provide us with as much information as possible about what's going on with your loads and your gun. In the meantime, I would recommend shooting some of the copper plated bullets like Berry's or Rainier. They can't be driven as fast as regular jacketed bullets with success, but they work very well for practice loads.

As stated above, the 9mm is a difficult cartridge to make work with cast bullets. It can be done - it just takes a bit more attention to detail than some other cartridges typically do. Many nominal 9mm bores are really .38 bores - instead of running .355-.356", they run .358". They also typically require a relatively hard bullet and good lube.

You received a lot of good advice above; save this thread, take a break for a while, then come back to it.

[txbirdman]

I'm trying to work with 9mm in a CZ75b I know 9mm is hard and pistols are more picky than revolvers but that's the gun dad bought and I can't buy my own

James,

I've been working with exactly the same pistol and I'll tell you what I did to get mine working properly. First shoot the largest boolit it will chamber reliabily. Mine would not work with .358's so I'm using .357's. I also tried .356 and they were inaccurate and leaded badly. Secondly I used WDWW as the alloy. The hard bullets worked better in my gun. Thirdly I used a load of 3.8 gr. of Unique with my 124 gr. RCBS TC boolit. Seat and taper crimp your bullet in two separate operations and play around with OAL until you find what works in your pistol. My pistol liked that bullet at 1.045". My load is a very light load for a 9MM (about 1000 fps) but it works without leading and is accurate. I'm sure you can load 9MM cast hotter but I use jacketed bullets for that application.

I love my CZ 75 but 9MM is not the easiest round to load. It's a shame you don't have access to a .45 acp. They are more cast boolit friendly.

[slowhand47]

Knowledge is one of the most scarce of all resources - Thomas Sowell// can't see any problems this venture isn't fruitful- paraphrasing your words. A part of your delimina, may be not recognizing the difficulty of the task which will require skills as well.

I think you took on a huge task -Auto feed and cast bullets too. There must be some tricks with the type of charge, the nose shape-hardness of your Boolit. Perhaps, possibly... your obsession is excitement of rapid fire; firecrackers are cheaper- no disrespect intended.

The answer is here/ there- because someone is already doing it. James having knowledge is an excellent way to suceed at Trivia type affairs but what you are attempting is not trivial. If you have suffered no ill affects from your efforts -be Happy, take your time and the solution will become available if you "...endevor to persevere"- quote from Jose Wales.

Please succeed James -/slowhand

[parson48]

I had some difficulty in getting cast to cycle through my XD. They were too big unsized, a 9mm Lee FCD would size them down too much. but I found that a .38 spcl FCD works just fine for my pistol.


I've learned that the world of cast shooting requires a bit of detective work.

Best of luck.

Edited to add that I do not roll crimp, I simply pass the round through the carbide sizing ring.

[Jamesconn]

Thanks for the help guys I didnt pick out the gun he did he loves pistols I'm more of a rifle/shotgun person.
He just read about good 9mm guns and found that one. When he was searching I told him just about everyday to get a .45

I didn't get an opinion I slugged the bore before but didnt write it down and the lead probably wasnt soft enough.

I'll take a break and finish my stained glass project I was making starry night just finished cutting the moon then got into reloading/casting.

I have lee 356-120-TC I think COAL is about 1.04 something I'll write this in more detail when I get home I haven't sized them I got rid of shaving by adjusting the powder die
Federal small pistol primers
3.8 grains of titegroup
Mixed headstamp fired brass
Lee alox lube

Boolits probably too big I need to get some soft lead and I'll try a new lube and water drop them size them to .002 larger than what the barrel diameter is and let them sit for a month? Then load em up I've been looking for load information for this boolit but can't really find any

[bobthenailer]

IMO using mixed head stamped brass my be one of your problems try to use the same brand in your loads and even better from a accuracy standpoint, I would first resize my brass and then sort the brass by length & keep brass from .750 to .755 and discard the rest or keep the rest for pratice ammo
I have found that my 9mm's shoot well with bullets sized at .357 dia and that powders such as WSF & Power Pistol & HS6 are more accurate than the faster powders in my 9mm's & 38 supers.

[WILCO]

that's the gun dad bought and I can't buy my own

Save some cash and ask your dad to buy you a Russian or German milsurp.
7.62X54R brass is available, 8mm brass is plentiful and can be made from 30-06 springfield brass too! A 91/30 Mosin Nagant for under $100.00 is a sure way to go. :mrgreen:

[txbirdman]

Another thing I forgot to mention, the CZ75 sometimes has extraction failures with winchester brass especially from the white box ammo. Try using something else if extraction/ejection has been a problem.

[rmcc]

James,

Give us some more details of what is happening. I have faith that the guys on here can figure it out!! They have always solved my problems given enough information on the problem I had.


Rich

[odfairfaxsub]

i ran my powder up and down on the peramiters est. by speer and shot 10 of each to see which one did best. for misfeeds you need to beable to from a shell in the mag, slow function into the barrel and lock up sure. if it can't do that then push the bullet into the case till you can

[Wayne Smith]

James, I'm gonna guess - you are a teenager so I would suggest you find someone local who can teach you to use a micrometer appropriately. With the 9mm you need to have very accurate measurements. One of the problems here is that many with much experience tend to make assumptions. My guess is that you probably don't know how to use a mic if you have one available to you. If I'm right you really have no close idea how big your barrel is or the size of your boolits.

[MT Gianni]

Separate all your brass by manufacturer. Verify cartridge length. Load each one and keep them separate. My CZ75 runs the 356402 and the 358242 over 4.2 gr AA2 with good accuracy. Both are loaded so that the end of the brass hits the end of the chamber not the lead of the bullet. Load your boolits without shaving at the cartridge mouth. Do not over crimp. Find out if there is a brand of brass that does not feed for you.

[crabo]

James, stick with this. When you get it right, it will not only feel great, but you will have also developed some great character by not giving up.

[dnotarianni]

124 grain head with 4 grains of Bullseye. Functions perfect and accurate out of an EAA witness ( CZ clone)

dave

[BruceB]

Many years ago, I was plagued with leading in a Browning 9mm Hi-power, using linotype 356402 bullets and Unique powder.

At that time, I'd seen a brief reference to a "tendency" of Unique towards leading of barrels.

I switched to Herco, and the problem went away.

Since that time, I've made it a principle in loading cast bullets in 9mm....use the SLOWEST powder that will yield good functioning and accuracy. Even though I'd used Bullseye successfully, I find that Herco works very well in 9x19, and it is my standard powder in that cartridge. Over thirty years of decent results is a compelling argument....

Also, sizing bullets at the largest diameter that will chamber freely is sound technique, as already mentioned. Of our four mm pistols, ALL will accept .357" bullets, and one will even chamber .359"!

[Jamesconn]

An you make the 7.62x54R brass from anything?

[garym1a2]

I used the same boolit and have done over 6k of them this year for my Glock and my brothers XDH5.25 for USPSA. I got the best results with very slow powders(WSF). I air cool wheel weights as most problems tend to be fit and lube, not hardness at slow speeds.

I never got Lee Alox to work, not even my .45. Try panlube. I use mix range pickup and don't bother sorting brass.

If your round is not reliable pull the barrell out of the gun and 100% check them. When I do this step my Glock is 100% good and so is the Kimber, if the round does not drop in freely by hand its not going to run 100%.



Thanks for the help guys I didnt pick out the gun he did he loves pistols I'm more of a rifle/shotgun person.
He just read about good 9mm guns and found that one. When he was searching I told him just about everyday to get a .45

I didn't get an opinion I slugged the bore before but didnt write it down and the lead probably wasnt soft enough.

I'll take a break and finish my stained glass project I was making starry night just finished cutting the moon then got into reloading/casting.

I have lee 356-120-TC I think COAL is about 1.04 something I'll write this in more detail when I get home I haven't sized them I got rid of shaving by adjusting the powder die
Federal small pistol primers
3.8 grains of titegroup
Mixed headstamp fired brass
Lee alox lube

Boolits probably too big I need to get some soft lead and I'll try a new lube and water drop them size them to .002 larger than what the barrel diameter is and let them sit for a month? Then load em up I've been looking for load information for this boolit but can't really find any

[garym1a2]

About 50 cents each case if you can find them. Its almost cheaper to find 7.62 Russian ammo and shoot it for the brass. Priz partin at about $16 per 20, Midway.

Milserp can be found for less than $4 per twenty and is very corrosive and not reloadable.


An you make the 7.62x54R brass from anything?

[WILCO]

An you make the 7.62x54R brass from anything?

The 7.62x54R is a rimmed case. There's nothing I know of that it can be converted from. On the plus side, it's gaining popularity and is more readily available in commercial loadings at affordable prices. Save the brass from a couple of boxes and that should last you a while. The brass itself is a bit pricey, but available too.

[Wayne Smith]

7.62x54R has been loaded by Remington/UMC since before 1900. I find it hard to believe there is a shortage. Granted, much of that ammo went to Russia.

[Bullwolf]

It would help if you tell us just what type of feeding problem it is that you are having James.

Two common failures:

1. Boolits that are too large in diameter to chamber.

2. Boolts that are too short tend to nosedive before the feed ramp. Boolits that are too long may contact the top of the barrel hood during feeding, stovepipe, or bind up in the magazine.

Generally the longest OAL that does not cause feeding problems will be what you are looking for.

If you are having a problem with overly large diameter boolits failing to chamber... You can measure batches of your cast boolits, and use ones that are in the right size range, (not too large to chamber) or re-size them all using a push through sizer die. Be sure to check your loaded rounds later in the removed barrel of your gun to be 100% positive they will chamber. I would also stick to using one brand of brass for maximum reliability. Brass size, length, and thickness will vary among the different types, and throw your press adjustments off from round to round.

If you are having boolit feeding problems, look carefully at your over all length. Load up a few dummy rounds of various different overall lengths, and then cycle them through the magazine and into the chamber slowly by hand, trying to find the correct overall length that will feed reliably in your firearm.



I use an OAL of 1.15 for my TC Lyman 356402 in 9mm.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=32150&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1304736090



I use an OAL of 1.10 for my TL356-124-2R in 9mm.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=32124&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1304656887

Those Over All Lengths feed in my TZ-75, Browning Hi-power, Ruger P89, and my Beretta 92FS.

The correct overall length, is the one that feeds with your boolits, in your gun.


- Bullwolf

[MtGun44]

Read through this for a systematic look at the problem.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=121607

Bill

[Jamesconn]

2. Boolts that are too short tend to nosedive before the feed ramp. Boolits that are too long may contact the top of the barrel hood during feeding, stovepipe, or bind up in the magazine.

I think I have this problem i will slug the bore buy proper sizing die try new lube water drop and increase OAL

[Bret4207]

James, one thing I learned long ago was to write down everything I did, every measurement, etc. And most importantly- to change only one thing at a time. Every time you change 2 or 3 things at once you are starting fresh from square one. So At least consider this when you get back to working on this project. The more intense the project, the more the need for orderly, accurate recording of information ( especially what DIDN'T work!) and the more difficult the project the more it's important to take things one step at a time.

[cbrick]

My father calls cast ammo **** and won't let me make anymore cause he is afraid they will damage his gun.

That's a startling comment. Cast bullets were the ONLY bullets for a couple of centuries and didn't damage guns. Since the advent of jacketed bullets numerous boolit “old wives tales” have been passed down from generation to generation and that is one of them.


James, one thing I learned long ago was to write down everything I did, every measurement, etc. And most importantly- to change only one thing at a time. Every time you change 2 or 3 things at once you are starting fresh from square one. So At least consider this when you get back to working on this project. The more intense the project, the more the need for orderly, accurate recording of information (especially what DIDN'T work!) and the more difficult the project the more it's important to take things one step at a time.

Very wise, sound advice. At least for me accurate note keeping is one of the most important things in handloading and is just as important in bullet casting. In particular the notes on WHAT DID NOT WORK. If I didn’t keep good notes I would be doomed to repeat year after year what I had already tried and failed. Any time I start anything new about a load or boolit I start by reading through my notes on that gun/cartridge or as near/similar load/velocity/pressure as I can. It gives me a far better idea of where to start or if I had done something similar in the past and did it work, not work or make no difference.

I think it is so basic to handloading that it doesn’t get mentioned very often but note keeping is one of the most important things you can do. Get a notebook and organize it by gun/caliber and write down everything even if it seems unimportant at the time. Next year that little note could save a bunch of aggravation and/or repeating a previous failure.

Rick

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I have lee 356-120-TC I think COAL is about 1.04 something I'll write this in more detail when I get home I haven't sized them I got rid of shaving by adjusting the powder die
Federal small pistol primers
3.8 grains of titegroup
Mixed headstamp fired brass
Lee alox lube


If you are getting lead fouling in the barrel.
Titegroup is a quick,hot burning powder and has caused me troubles
in auto-pistols with cast...But, I do love titegroup for J-words.

Bruce also gave you some good advice...if the problem is leading

Many years ago, I was plagued with leading in a Browning 9mm Hi-power, using linotype 356402 bullets and Unique powder.
At that time, I'd seen a brief reference to a "tendency" of Unique towards leading of barrels. I switched to Herco, and the problem went away.

Since that time, I've made it a principle in loading cast bullets in 9mm....use the SLOWEST powder that will yield good functioning and accuracy. Even though I'd used Bullseye successfully, I find that Herco works very well in 9x19, and it is my standard powder in that cartridge. Over thirty years of decent results is a compelling argument....

Also, sizing bullets at the largest diameter that will chamber freely is sound technique, as already mentioned. Of our four mm pistols, ALL will accept .357" bullets, and one will even chamber .359"!

FYI, I size my boolits to .357 for my 9mm.
Jon

[hiram1]

dont give up not a good thing to do ever.go for the brass ring and hang on

[Bullwolf]

+1 on good keeping good notes.

I have had loads that were great, that I never thought I would forget.

Many years later, I realized that I did not write them down, and I can't quite remember exactly what it was that I did at the time

In some cases I have even had to pull older loaded ammo, and weigh components, and charges to get an idea of what I had done.

Lesson learned. Now I write EVERYTHING down, in some extreme cases I even make duplicates. I always label any hand loaded ammunition that I make. I also mark loads that I liked in my reloading manuals, and I will write new ones in as well.

I put load data, along with any special instructions in with my dies for oddball calibers that I don't reload all that often, or I had to take special steps with. (41 Long Colt comes to mind)

A good loading notebook, and a label maker are your friends.

When you find something that works well for you, write it down! If you make a mistake, and don't want to make it again later, write that down too.

You may not remember exactly what steps you went through when you revisit a project later on, and you can end up having to do it all over again if you don't keep good notes.


- Bullwolf

[Jamesconn]

My barber recommended titegroup to me he reloads but does not cast he is one of the persons that turned my father off cast ammo. He loads for 45

What powder should I use for 9mm cast.

I'm getting my dads iPhone 4 because he got the new one and I found out I can sell my current one for $200 and I bought it for $50 with the plan.

I'm going to use this money to buy a mosin and a tin of ammo.
Now when people want to buy me a gift I'll say a box of wolf gold in 7.62x54R for the cases.

It will be my first rifle when I turn 18 I'll have it in my truck.
I don't plan on putting a scope on it maybe a bipod though and I'll change the sling to a padded one with a recoil pad.