Odd F/L die just the ticket

[BPCR Bill]

I have been pondering the idea of getting into the Paper Patching game for a couple years now, and have done some bit of experimentation, and plenty of reading the posts here. I finally bought the BACO .442 mould for my big jump into this. My #9 onion skin wraps right at bore diameter of .450, but my brass just had nothing for neck tension, and my first groups with this bullet were abysmal. I was laothe to purchase new brass just to get a thicker case neck, and I thought that would be a shot in the dark anyway. Last week, I was talking to a good friend back in Montana, and he said he had an RCBS F/L sizing die for his 45-110 that he no longer used. His gripe with it was that it actually put a slight "bottleneck" on his cases. I asked him to send it to me, and I got it in my hands just before Christmas. I had some cases that I had already sized with my die, and I gave them another once over with the mike. I then ran a few through the die that Wyatt had sent me. No kiddin, it put a bottle neck on the case mouth about 1/2" down, and just barely discernible.

My F/L die gave me a case mouth with an OD of .473", and an ID of .455", and all these cases measure .010" thick at the mouth.

The "odd" RCBS die sized the case mouths to .469" OD, and .449" ID. With a nice chamfer of the case mouth, those .450" PP bullets go in nice and tight without tearing the patch. Now it's just a matter of time to get a break in the rain here and get back out to the range. We'll see if this helps any.

Regards,
Bill

[montana_charlie]

The "odd" RCBS die sized the case mouths to .469" OD, and .449" ID.
We'll see if this helps any.
It should.
It is one of a small group of 'workarounds' required for using PP-to-bore in a chamber made for groove diameter bullets.

CM

[SharpsShooter]

If I was patching to bore, a modest taper crimp would be sufficient to give adequate neck tension. With the boolit seated out into the rifling it would seem that concentricity would be less of a concern as well.

SS

[powderburnerr]

if you look at an origional ctg, you will see a slight bottle neck , you got a good die,,

[BPCR Bill]

Charlie, I was considering calling RCBS to see if they had actually made that to a spec, or if it was a mistake. It just about looks like they stopped a bit short with the finishing reamer on this.

Sharpshooter, this die actually gives some incredible concentricity. run-out is maybe .002" on the 20 rounds I loaded up. My brass is headstamped HDS and RCBS, I bought it out of Huntingtons over twenty years ago.

Powderburner, I've never seen an original Sharps cartridge. A fella could learn alot from that alone.

Happy New Year guys!

Regards,
Bill

[JMtoolman]

Bill you might also try to find some slightly thicker onion skin paper that is a half thousand thicker. I have always found on my paper patching, over 40 years, that if you adjust your paper patching thickness to just be a thumb fit into a fired case with no resizeing, that was just about perfect! Best regards, the toolman

[BPCR Bill]

Bill you might also try to find some slightly thicker onion skin paper that is a half thousand thicker. I have always found on my paper patching, over 40 years, that if you adjust your paper patching thickness to just be a thumb fit into a fired case with no resizeing, that was just about perfect! Best regards, the toolman

Toolman, That is something I may try down the road. I have settled on this particular combination and I want to get this bore diameter bullet to shoot well before I move on with other combinations of paper thickness or bullet diameter. Lord knows I haven't even changed primer or powder brand / granulation yet. One step at a time!

Kind Regards,
Bill

[Lead pot]

Bill you might also try to find some slightly thicker onion skin paper that is a half thousand thicker. I have always found on my paper patching, over 40 years, that if you adjust your paper patching thickness to just be a thumb fit into a fired case with no resizeing, that was just about perfect! Best regards, the toolman

It's not important to fit the bullet diameter to a unsized case. what one should worry about is how the patched bullet fits the chamber.
People worry to much about over working the brass so they think the answer is not sizing it. Full length sizing is just one step in reloading that needs or needs not to be done and if your worried that it will destroy your brass because it hardens just anneal it when it is needed.
I have been using stretched .30-40 brass for my .40-70 for 11 years. This stretched brass is very thin and I have never has a split case neck using this brass and I have to full length size it every time I reload it to get the accuracy I want.
These 500 cases have been shot and reloaded more then 12,000 times when I lost count when there was a primer shortage several years ago and they are still going strong.
I keep track of the rounds fired in a particular rifle by the primers used in the rifle.

Happy New Year to all of you.

Lp.

[Seth Hawkins]

Bill - for my .44-77, I bought a neck sizer die from CH-4D that uses removable bushings, and purchased an assortment of bushings that vary in size in 0.001" increments. I bought a set for both paper patch and grease groove use. This allows me to get the exact amount of neck tension I want on my bullets. When I load my paper patch loads, my finished loads look very odd. The .44-77 is a bottle neck cartridge, but it has an additional bottle neck up at the mouth where the bullet sits. I only run as much of the neck into the neck sizing die as will be holding the bullet - about 1/3 of the neck.

Like Lead Pot said, you don't fit the paper patched bullet to the brass, you fit the brass to the bullet. And fit the paper patched bullet to the bore. Modern brass is sized to accommodate a grease groove bullet that is groove diameter, not bore diameter.

[BPCR Bill]

I think the biggest problem I had with my first shots were certainly inadequate neck tension. This will definitley contribute to erratic pressure characteristics shot to shot. I was pleased to note that the patches all cut nicley and peeled off the bullets after exiting the muzzle. There were no keyholes or complete misses of the targets. Once groups start getting down, I can refine the loads as far as primer, powder, compression, etc. I had never thought of looking at CH-4D for dies, I guess this find was just pure luck. I figured a bore diameter wrapped bullet would be ideal for this rifle. Looks like some clear weather this week, and I have twenty-two rounds to shoot.

Regards,
Bill

[Don McDowell]

Bill what are you using for wads under the bullet?

[BPCR Bill]

Don, I read a few threads (some old ones, Wasserbergers as well) for some tips, and decided I was not going to go through a whole bunch of processes and different types and thicknesses of wads. I use .030" VF wads, one on top of the powder, a cookie of SPG that is 3/16" thick, and another .030" VF wad under the bullet. I wipe between shots, a wet and a dry patch.

When I started out with this project, my first twenty rounds were loaded with ten each of 110 grains of powder and 105 grains of powder. I shot four targets with five rounds each. The groups (I'm being generous here with that term) were a bit better with the 105 grain loads, but were still scattered over a twelve inch bull at 100 yards. This is about the place where I figured I needed some tighter neck tension, and probably a lighter load still. Wyatt sent that die to me before Christmas and I now have some more rounds loaded up. I loaded up another ten with 105 grains to see if that gets better. I also loaded up ten with 100 grains of powder. I'll tweek things along as results get better. Oh yeah, I'm using Elephant 3F. Why, you may ask?? Cuz I have it (a whole case) and I want to get rid of it. No one wants to buy it, and I may as well us it for load development, as opposed to the expensive Swiss stuff. Wednesday is supposed to be decent weather here, and it's off to the range again. Hey, I haven't had loads this bad in a long time. It's getting interesting again!

[Don McDowell]

Bill you may find .060 wad on the powder is kinder and gentler to your bullets base even with the lube cookie.
You have to be cautious about your wiping routine also as it can really smuck things up. Might try just a blowtube between a 5 round string and see what they look like.
Matter of fact if you're wiping , might try leaving out the grease cookie, and just use a couple of wads under the bullet. Wiping the patched portion of the bullet after it's loaded in the case with a drop of jojoba oil has prooven good in a few loads for folks.
When you run out of that elephant you may want to give consideration to the KIK 1.5. Dick Savage has 2, 110's that are just barnburner accurate with the patched bullets and that KIK. Mulhern has been doing pretty well with it as well.

[BPCR Bill]

Mornin' Don, I have found that for whatever reason I need to wipe between shots, even though the humidity here is pretty high and the temps are in the 40's to 50's. The fouling will still bugger the patch, even using my blow tube. If it does that during the winter in this valley, I don't want to think about what it will do in the central Oregon high desert during the summer matches. I had mulled over doing away with the lube cookie, given the frequency of wiping required. I have some .060 VF gasket sheets, I'll punch out some wads for some more load development. Bullets are all cast at 20:1. I have one can of KIK 2F in the magazine that I should use sometime. No better time than the present. Thanks for the input, Don. It's always appreciated!

[Don McDowell]

Bill you're going thru what most of us go thru trying to get good results with patched bullets in a greasegroove chamber. That's why when somebody gets into this bpcr stuff and wants to know about paper patching I believe it's best they get a greasegroove load working first, that way they've got something to fall back on and not get entirely disgusted.

Couple of thoughts on the fouling. 1st is the Elephant powder, not much can help that stuff, but it can produce some good accuracy . Then second you may just be bangin your head against the wall with the 3f in that big case. The odg's always said that going to smaller grains of powder than 1f in the rifle cartridges would create difficult fouling problems. I think that's right on the money more often than not.
Are you going to make it to Forsyth again this year?

[BPCR Bill]

Don, I had a feeling about the fouling issues with the 3F. I just want to get rid of this powder one way or another. My grease groove loads are great, so there is a fall back plan. It just got to the point that it's like shooting my '06 with a scope. I needed something to get my interest back up. If I ain't working at improving something it gets boring. I had a case of Elephant 2F awhile back that I shot in my 45-70 Hiwall. I duplexed those loads and that really burned pretty nice with 6 grains of IMR 4227. Shooting Swiss 2F in that one now, and the 110 is normally loaded with 1.5 Swiss. If I can get this Brazilian powder to shoot ok with the PP slugs, It should be pretty straightforward working with another powder of larger granuals.

Yep, I'm getting back to Montana again for the Q. Although I only got as far as Billings last summer. How about you? We never did get together the year before.

[Don McDowell]

Bill I understand completely about the need to get rid of the powder, and looking for something to keep from getting bored...
We were in Forsyth, we had shot the Big Hill and then spent a day or so in Miles City. We actually had signed up, and had sight settings on all the targets, the afternoon before the storm that killed the shoot came.
Well maybe this year we'll get together..

[BPCR Bill]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_67674f04fbe30551d.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=3301)

Shot four targets today and this is the best so far. Sights are zeroed, but for some reason all shots are going high and right.Wind was definitely not a factor. Shot at 100 yards on a Wyoming Schuetzen Union 200 yard target Surprisingly, I shot this group without wiping, using only the blow tube between the five shots.

[Don McDowell]

Looks like you're getting there.

[BPCR Bill]

Yep, but I ain't quite up to "Hairy chested bow-legged competition shooter" yet!:holysheep

[Don McDowell]

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