Winchester 38-55 High Wall

[waltp]

Need some advise. I have my eye on a Winchester High Wall 38-55. I believe they have been discontinued. The price is in the $1,300-$1,500 area. I shoot cast bullets,reduced smokeless in an original Ballard #9 38-55. I breech seat because the groove diameter is .386 and the bore is .380. This is not unusual in the oldtimers; they shot pure lead and black powder and assumed they would get dirty fast; therefore the big grooves. I would like to shoot easy fixed cast ammo in a 38-55. Just love that caliber! Question, is the Winchester worth the price? Thanks guys.

[hivoltfl]

last one I saw at a gun show was in that price range, must be typical.

Rick

[AkMike]

It worth the price if you want it bad enough! My High Thickwall, 1st year prod. 38-55 was alot less than that though.. :D

[boommer]

waltp current 1885 winchester hi walls are great rifles I have one in 45-90 will out shoot me! buffalo arms has 38-55 for about 1150.00 but those cresent butt plates are a bear!!! in 45-90 38-55 piece of cake

[MT Chambers]

Are we talking about orig. rifles or Italian knockoffs? Orig's. in good condition go for alot more than the figures here.

[Dale53]

It sounds like they are talking modern Browning or Winchester 1885's. I have two of them (a Browning BPCR in .40/65 and a Browning Creedmoor in .45/90). Both are superbly accurate and fine rifles in every regard.

However, all of those need a "McGee Trigger Fix". After the "fix" you will have a VERY nice 2-2 1/4 lbs crisp, creep free trigger pull.

Dale53

[waltp]

MTChambers-It is a modern Winchester 1885

[waltp]

Dale53- Pardon my ignorance, but what is a "McGee Trigger Fix"?

[boommer]

waltp the one that I seen at buffalo arms is a limited edition run from winchester out of their miroku plant in japan I have one in 45-90 fit and finish is really nice. nice smooth action 4 pound trigger good for hunting and mines very accurate with black loads 500+pills. a original winchester high wall in 38-55 around my neck of the woods would run you 2500+ for something shootable it would be a good investment
If you buy it right the Brownings and winchesters have been coming from the MIROKU plant from the 70's I believe

[Gussy]

Price sounds high to me. I have the Browning, bought used under $1000.00 last year. Brownings have better wood and finish. I'd look for one of them even at a higher price. I've seen the Wins at around $1200.00.
Gus

[boommer]

with the brownings you really to not make the mistake on buying the b78 model because of no tang and do know you can put a tang sight but it's not correct and I'AM not sure they made them 38-55 but they made them 45-70 those you can pick up 600.00 to 900.00 I KNOW where there is two new B78 45-70 on the shelf 950.00 each and they been there a long time nothing wrong with B78 but you are for the most part going to scope it at least for me.

IN MY EARLIER POST WHAT MENT TO SAY 2500.00+ FOR A PRE MIROKU HIGH WALL

[August]

Not clear what model you're talking about. If it's the "Traditional Hunter" variation of the theme, it has a blued receiver and a tang with a Marbles aperture sight -- along with a dovetailed open sight on the barrel and a bead on the front.

Those typically go for 1000 bucks. However, they are rare as hen's teeth and very desirable because of the low recoil associated with the 38-55 caliber. The crescent buttplate is no problem in this caliber because it is relatively mild.

[Dale53]

The "McGee Trigger Fix" is outlined in an article I wrote a number of years ago. It is a step by step "do it yourself" project (or you can take the article to your favorite gunsmith for the completion). If you get the rifle or have a modern Browning or Winchester 1885 (including the .22 rimfire low-wall) just send me a PM and I'll e-mail you a copy of the article. If you follow the directions EXACTLY, step by step you will end up with a 2 1/4-2½ lb trigger pull with zero creep.

After I got my eagerly awaited Browning BPCR (one of the early ones) I was MUCH dissatisfied with the trigger. The supplied adjustment was a joke. Typical "lawyer trigger". I knew better than to take the action apart. It is VERY difficult to reassemble- DO NOT GO THERE. However, to better see the action "innerds" I pulled the wood off. Careful examination showed me a way....

Dale53

[cabezaverde]

The "McGee Trigger Fix" is outlined in an article I wrote a number of years ago. It is a step by step "do it yourself" project (or you can take the article to your favorite gunsmith for the completion). If you get the rifle or have a modern Browning or Winchester 1885 (including the .22 rimfire low-wall) just send me a PM and I'll e-mail you a copy of the article. If you follow the directions EXACTLY, step by step you will end up with a 2 1/4-2½ lb trigger pull with zero creep.

After I got my eagerly awaited Browning BPCR (one of the early ones) I was MUCH dissatisfied with the trigger. The supplied adjustment was a joke. Typical "lawyer trigger". I knew better than to take the action apart. It is VERY difficult to reassemble- DO NOT GO THERE. However, to better see the action "innerds" I pulled the wood off. Careful examination showed me a way....

Dale53

Hey Dale,

Will that McGee fix work on my Uberti High Wall? If so, I would love a copy of that article.

[McLintock]

I've got the Browning version that I bought in 1999 or 2000, and they're just great rifles, is the best I can say. Sent the trigger to Lee Shaver 3-4 years ago and he put a really nice trigger let off on it; one of 3 he did for me. Came up with what I figure are two really good loads for it; 18 gr of IMR 4227 with 245 gr plain base bullet. Shot this group with it at 100 yards:
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1620/1303399/6857234/235766445.jpg
It's my up to 250-300 yard load.
Then, for 300 yards and up, I came up with this load, 31 grs of 3031 and a 265 gr gas check like the Lyman one. It shot this group that convinced me it's as good as I can do with my limited rifle shooting abilities.
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1620/1303399/6857234/235766437.jpg
The barrel slugged at .376 or 7 (can't remember which now), but I shoot .380 plain bases and .381 gas check bullets. Both loads are extremely consistent, and never vary at all, no wild shots or anything like that unless I cause it. The 3031 load was listed as a favorite deer and black bear load for the 38-55 in a 2004 or 5 Gun Digest article on the old timers and good loads for them; I was shooting it long before I saw that article though. I'm still using the factory sights except for putting on a lower front bead so I can reach out to 500 yards or so when it's needed. I've won 2 National Championships for the single shot rifle in Cowboy Action Shooting with that load and I'm trying for a third tomorrow at Ben Avery Shooting Range in Phoenix.
One more thing, I tried the Mcgee Trigger fix on my BPCR, but when I did this, as the trigger was going away and I was trying to get one last shot, I decided to send the triggers to Lee Shaver:
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1620/1303399/6857234/235779543.jpg
Get the gun, you'll never regret it if you really like single shots.
McLintock

[Nueces]

Best of luck, Sir, and please tell us how it went.

Mark

[McLintock]

Thanks for the encouragement Nueces, I'll probably need a little luck to do well. You don't know the distance, no sighters, you just go out, sit down and shoot ten shots at a target somewhere between 250 and 300 yards, as fast as you can. If your sights aren't set right, you're dead from the get-go. In 2004, I won by less then 1 1/2 seconds over the 2nd place guy, so you don't have much room for error, like dropping rounds, fumbling a chambering, or anything like that. We'll see. By the way, the 265 gr'ers I use came from Texas, Hunter Supply, only place I could find .381 bullets at the time I ordered them. My Lyman mould for the same bullet won't go over .379.
Thanks again,
McLintock

[Nueces]

That does sound like a great rifle match. As the returning Champ, I'd think you to be less worried than anybody else. :drinks: Here's to a fine day for all of you.

By the way, I did all my military flying training in your area, Willy, Tucson, Luke, 30 years ago. To this day, I have great fondness for south central Arizona. I loved how I could just park the old Scout and head for the hills with a good gun. Nice country.

Mark


Thanks for the encouragement Nueces, I'll probably need a little luck to do well. You don't know the distance, no sighters, you just go out, sit down and shoot ten shots at a target somewhere between 250 and 300 yards, as fast as you can. If your sights aren't set right, you're dead from the get-go. In 2004, I won by less then 1 1/2 seconds over the 2nd place guy, so you don't have much room for error, like dropping rounds, fumbling a chambering, or anything like that. We'll see. By the way, the 265 gr'ers I use came from Texas, Hunter Supply, only place I could find .381 bullets at the time I ordered them. My Lyman mould for the same bullet won't go over .379.
Thanks again,
McLintock

[hivoltfl]

that is one dead chrony.

Rick

[waltp]

To all- Thanks for all the replies Great information! What a great place to learn. I have been searching the web and found that NEF, in Gardner MA, makes a single shot target model in 38-55. I know it is an economy model compared to the Winchester 1885; Japanese made. Has anyone had any experience with it? Again thanks for the help.

[boommer]

waltp I have one It is a troublesome child but It's not all It's fault !Alot of the problem
is with dies and new brass dosn't really matter who's dies you use they are 375 winchester in which they are designed for the most part .375 slugs so the sizer is purdy much useless for that then there expander die purdy much useless to it's .375
so what you are looking at just the belling on that die. see most 38-55 bores are .379 + my H@R - NEF bore is .379 I have a mint bore 94 winchester sporting rifle that
has a .381 bore and it's a 1901 vintage great condition but can walk around this problem I CAST .379 30/1 SLUGS then they will bump up to fill the bore . I dont size
keep cases seperate between rifles after firing at that point I dont need expand then but I LOAD BLACK so things change a little then compared to smokeless but not
alot also load smokeless just a few different tricks. as far as H@R TARGET IT has bastard chamber by saying that it case length of 38-55 but set up for .375 slug and the bore is .379 kind of strange but not to say it cant be made to shoot I got mine to shoot clover leafs at 100 YARDS BUT IT TOOK A LOT OF TWEAKING!! a real learning
experience their more to this but to tell you the truth it was worth the chase.
I WOULD SAY if you shoot factory loads from it 2-3 inch groups from what I been hearing for the most part and I cant really say about other current rife chambers
IF YOU LIKE A RELOADING CHALLANGE THEY WILL SHOOT!! DO IT!
Iam not good at putting it down in print so I hope this helps you not scare ya!

[cabezaverde]

I have the Target rifle in 38-55, and have to agree with boommer (I think).

The rifle presents a reloading challenge, as do the components available. The basic problem is that the chamber is cut small when compared to the bore of the rifle. Makes having to have your settings just right.

It seems most of the Target's I have seen discussed like a .379 - .381" boolit. My uses .379".

They are a fun rifle if you decide to get one. One option you have is to just work through the reloading challenges for your particular rifle. The other is to have the chambered opened up to standard dimensions. I am thinking about getting the reamer to do that.

[waltp]

boomer and cabezverde- Wow! Thanks for the input. I really don't need another challenge. I will just be patient and wait for the right priced modern Winchester 1985 or perhaps an Uberti.

[boommer]

waltp it not all rifles problem because the chamber the newer winnies might be screwed up too!! you still have reloading issues so you still that to look at.
The 38-55 is a great cartridge but winchester came out with the 375 round and are so close in dimensions and 38-55 was a really dieing round back then that they started tooling for the 375 and forgot about 38-55 I would bet if you find a set of pre-375 -38-55 dies they be correct I think ! the thing is 38-55 is coming back to life and the corporate JERKS!!! WILL NOT ACKNOWLEDGE THERE IS A PROBLEM !!
YOU TALK TO DIE COMPANYS THEY ARE IN SPEC BUT IF YOU WANT FOR A FEE WE WILL MAKE IT TO YOUR SPEC WHICH IS THE RIGHT SPEC FOR 38-55 AND H@R IS THE SAME THEY SAY THEY ARE RIGHT BUT SEND IT BACK WILL OPEN UP THE CHAMBER FOR $ 38-55 CASES ARE FORMED AT 375 SPECS SO IF YOU HAVE A TRUE 38-55 BORE .379 TO.383 OR ABOUTS YOU BULGE THE CASES WITH BULLET ON THE FIRST LOADINGS THEN YOU CAN ONLY PARTLY SIZE I COULD GO ON AND ON BUT THE BOTTOM LINE IS MONEY CAN FIX THESE PROBLEMS !!!!BUT THIS IS MY LITTLE PART OF THIS WORLD AND ITS NOT BAD BUT I HAVE NOT BEEN TO ANY OTHER WORLD SO I HAVE NOTHING TO COMPARE IT TO !!!!!!!

[uscra112]

If you have a gun with a chamber that is a bit small for the bore, then you have a gun for cast boolits with PAPER PATCHES.

This seemingly undersized chambering was standard practice in the paper-patch / blackpowder era, which was the 1870s to the beginning of the smokeless age in the '90s. My Mauser 71/84 was made just this way. German military issue ammo for the 71/84 (I have some) has paper patched boolits (11mm) that are butter-soft. The boolit and patch enter the rifling and "slug up" (obturate) to fill the grooves.

It works. You can get up to 2000fps with a dead-soft patched boolit, and never see a hint of leading. When that soft slug hits meat at that speed, it mushrooms beautifully, but doesn't break up. What more could a man want?

Paul Matthews excellent book "The Paper Jacket" will confirm all the details. Go buy a copy and get to work.

In the Schuetzen era, the 38-55 was one of the most favored rounds, and for most of that time the boolits were paper patched. Much if not most of the commercial 38-55 ammo used by hunters in that time was paper-patched, too. As was the ammo used by the buffalo hunters in those big old Sharps shoulder-cannons. The only reason the paper patch died away was that patching had to be done by hand - no machine could do it. Which made it more expensive than the J-word boolits that supplanted it.