felix lube ???? greened up my gas checks??

[indymadcaster]

ok I am bewildered..........made felix lube per recipe works great on plainbased boolits I dip lubed some month or so ago had 'em on a cookie sheet i went to push thru size them and ALL of them the gas check turned green??????? I dabg sure do not want to put them in cases and it corrode them,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,what the hell caused that????

[cdet69]

Usualy an acid based product will turn copper green. I forget the term but when people want copper to look older than it is they will wash it with an acid type product to get what they whant.

[indymadcaster]

i guess ????? is will it mess up the gascheck or the brass?

[runfiverun]

i am trying to think what could possibly make the copper turn green.
there's only mineral oil,castor oil,sodium stearate,and beeswax in it. maybe some lanolin or carnuba wax.
copper needs oxygen,or moisture,or a sulphite to cause an oxidation.
the only thing i can think of is you didn't cook the fizz out when you added the ivory.

[stubshaft]

+1 - There has to be some moisture in the lube. I have boolits lubed with Felix 5 years ago and there is no sign of any corrosion on the checks.

[geargnasher]

Something's way off. What did you cook the lube in?

Gear

[indymadcaster]

stainless steel pan

[utk]

Excuse me, being an amateur "lube-maker": Old brass candle holders sometimes have "green stuff" on them. I think it is because of the stearic acid in the candles. Maybe in combination with the moisture in the air.

And if i remember correctly sodium stearate is very similar to stearic acid - only some sodium atoms.

I also remember reading a post saying that the Ivory soap also contains glycerine, a substance which is hygroscopic, i.e. it attracts moisture. (That's why glycerine is used in moisturizing hand creams).
But I don't remember how to get rid of the glycerine...
(Those who didn't have "green stuff"-problems maybe used less of the soap in their lube. And/or cooked it for a longer period of time?).

A substitute for Ivory Soap could be pure Stearic Acid. Wiljen published his lube experiments in several posts some time ago:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=907926&highlight=stearic+acid#post907926

Also, read something about the differeces here:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=930614&highlight=stearic+acid#post930614

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/search.php?searchid=3700610

[geargnasher]

UTK, you might be on to something. I have a few copper candle sconces and they all corrode something terrible where the wax puddles, but nowhere else. You get rid of the gylcerine by boiling it off, that's why the lube foams when you put the soap into it. If the lube isn't hot enough, or not cooked enough after adding the soap, it can still contain the glycols from the soap. Sodium stearate has a much lower melting point and doesn't have any glycols in it, so any moisture it may have absorbed is only water and disappears almost instantly when added to the melted oils.

Gear

[utk]

I think one of the posts said the the foaming was trapped water evaporating and the glycerine itself could be filtered out as small "white blobs"...

Maybe one could try this out by cooking the soap alone or together with the oils to see if this reduces the green-staining of copper/brass?

If so, this could be added to the FWFL lube directions for those preferring sodium stearate (Ivory Soap) instead of stearic acid?

EDIT: "Pure" (as pure as you can buy it) sodium stearate has a quite high melting point, in the region of 300 degC (more than 500 degF). I have some of it and if I used too much of it, the oils would turn into a gel as it cooled down. I didn't like it because I was afraid of scorching the rest of the ingredients, i.e. ths beeswax and lanolin.
So I was very happy when Wiljen published his experiments with stearic acid instead of ss/Ivory. No more scorching high heat.
I also did some heat experiments (published with pictures here on CB) with the different lubes and his variety was good enough for me. The Wiljen lube (FWWFL) did well at 130 degF (that's how high I tested) and that is good enough in our climate (Sweden). I didn't even add carnauba wax because I wanted it fairly soft. Some carnauba had probably increased temp sustainability.

[jandbn]

From what I found out when researching Felix lube ingredients is that there isn't any glycerin left in Ivory. P&G removes the glycerin and sells it for profit for thing like moisturizing creams (to take care of dry skin caused by soap!). If you look on the packaging of Ivory bar soap, glycerin is conspiciously missing.

Ivory has a PH of 11. The ingredients from an MSDS (http://www.hescoinc.com/msds/pg64415.pdf)

SODIUM TALLOWATE, SODIUM COCOATE OR SODIUM PALM KERNELATE, WATER, SODIUM CHLORIDE, SODIUM SILICATE, MAGNESIUM SULFATE, AND FRAGRANCE.

I would assume the sodium chloride (table salt) and or magnesium sulfate (epsom salt) would be the hygroscopic enablers. However, as Gear mentioned, any abosorbed water should boil out when melting the Ivory shavings in the 300 degree oils.

I'm not a chemist, so can sulphite be made from the above ingredients?

[FirstBrit]

From what I found out when researching Felix lube ingredients is that there isn't any glycerin left in Ivory. P&G removes the glycerin and sells it for profit for thing like moisturizing creams (to take care of dry skin caused by soap!). If you look on the packaging of Ivory bar soap, glycerin is conspiciously missing.

Ivory has a PH of 11. The ingredients from an MSDS (http://www.hescoinc.com/msds/pg64415.pdf)

SODIUM TALLOWATE, SODIUM COCOATE OR SODIUM PALM KERNELATE, WATER, SODIUM CHLORIDE, SODIUM SILICATE, MAGNESIUM SULFATE, AND FRAGRANCE.

I would assume the sodium chloride (table salt) and or magnesium sulfate (epsom salt) would be the hygroscopic enablers. However, as Gear mentioned, any abosorbed water should boil out when melting the Ivory shavings in the 300 degree oils.

I'm not a chemist, so can sulphite be made from the above ingredients?

Hi, The real secret to making the Felix Lube correctly is the temperature control while adding the Ivory soap. In earlier lists it was stated that the molten waxes should be just starting to "smoke" before adding the Ivory soap. I can certainly vouch for that! I contol the temperature with a old lab thermometer and wait till 180°C ( 356°F) before adding the grated soap. Add slowly and wait until all frothing has disappeared before adding more soap. After adding the last soap and after frothing has died down I allow the molten mix to simmer for another 30 mins. to ensure the soap has really dissolved. I know it's a bit smelly, but only then am I sure that the soap is really dissolved. During the cooling process the is a gelling stage that is a good indication that the soap has dissolved. The final test is cutting the sticks of lube after pouring into appropriate tubes and allowed to set. The lube should be glassy translucent texture if it looks crumbly or amorphous then this a sign that the soap was not fully dissolved before switching off the heat. The original recipe called for castor oil - now this oil is not very stable to air oxidation and could be one of the factors with the green tarnishing on the gas checks. This is one of the reasons why I now use Saflor oil instead of Castor oil in my lube recipes.
Anybody who doesn't want to get involved with these high temperatures would be better off using lithium soap greases. They work well, but since the soaps are already dissolved there are no reasons for having to use such high temperatures.

Best regards,

Adrian, Germany.

[runfiverun]

adrian:
you are talking about the white or brown lithium stearate greases correct ?
these can be added to a melted carrier with ease.
but the regular lithium greases [like in the grease gun tubes] have a higher melt point @ 350 f as i recall.

back to the original post...
i recall felix bieng most adamant about the oils being mixed at the high temp [smoking] to allow polymerization and then the ivory being added after the full half hour of smoking and stirring.
and him being clear about the stirring untill all the fizzing is gone.
i don't know if he thought about this side affect, or if it was necessary for the soap to act as the binding agent between the oils and the b-wax carrier.

[bruce381]

sodium stearate will cause copper to turn to copper blue or green as will free fatty acids.

[utk]

sodium stearate will cause copper to turn to copper blue or green as will free fatty acids.

So, if I use Stearic Acid instead of Sodium Stearate, will my lube just as likely cause verdigris on copper/brass?

And, will the lube cause verdigris inside the brass case, "eating away" at the brass from the inside?

Is there any other chemical that will bind the lube ingredients just as well as the Sodium Stearate or Stearic Acid, and not causing verdigris?

[FirstBrit]

adrian:
you are talking about the white or brown lithium stearate greases correct ?
these can be added to a melted carrier with ease.
but the regular lithium greases [like in the grease gun tubes] have a higher melt point @ 350 f as i recall.

back to the original post...
i recall felix bieng most adamant about the oils being mixed at the high temp [smoking] to allow polymerization and then the ivory being added after the full half hour of smoking and stirring.
and him being clear about the stirring untill all the fizzing is gone.
i don't know if he thought about this side affect, or if it was necessary for the soap to act as the binding agent between the oils and the b-wax carrier.

The lithium greases most familar to me are the ones to be bought in the automotive trade and particularly from Castrol. The talk about universal grease based on Lithium complex for high temperature applications. The current version is fairly vivid green more than likely via artifical dye, a MoS² variant is black. I remeber long back when I bought some in the UK that this was yellowish/brown probably natural colour without dyes. I have heard of with lithium greases but have no personal experience.

Your right about the polymerisation. Natural oils like castor oil will tend to polymerize if held at high temperature for some length of time. Where the actual borderline is wrt. to temperature and time is I don't know. I had one batch which I left simmering in the garage on a hot-plate while I went into town to do some errands. Boy when I got back ist was smoking and was no longer a chocolate brown liquid but a black tarry consistency. Probably ideal for repairing tarmac road surfaces, but definitely not as bullet lube. I'm sure that this was not just polymerization perse, but also the first stages of thermal decomposition. I'm not sure in the original recipe which is more important, the polymerization or the dissolving of the soap. I'm sure the polymerisation will help to make the lube even stiffer/tenacious. But on the other hand the higher temperature is absoluteöy necessary to get the soap to dissolve fully. Even after frothing has stopped there remains a thin white veil floating on the top of my lube. I need to simmer further and put on the pan lid to get the soap to dissolve fully. To get a more tenacious lube for my commercial bullet operation I have upped the soap content to 15% and carnauba to 10% whilst reducing the oil (saflor oil) content to 15%. Rest is Beeswax and annhydrous Lanolin.

Best regards,

Adrian- Germany.

[Rockydog]

Any thought of a reaction between the Aluminum cookie sheet and the copper checks? Disimilar metals, a bit of acid in the stearate= Battery

[jandbn]

So, if I use Stearic Acid instead of Sodium Stearate, will my lube just as likely cause verdigris on copper/brass?

And, will the lube cause verdigris inside the brass case, "eating away" at the brass from the inside?

Is there any other chemical that will bind the lube ingredients just as well as the Sodium Stearate or Stearic Acid, and not causing verdigris?
UTK,
Seeing as how I use Felix lube, I have a vested interest in finding out what is causing the corrosion too. As runfiverun mentioned, maybe there is a possibility of some unintended consequence with the original ingredients. I would think for as long as Felix lube has been around, somebody would have reported corrosion a long time ago. But if you are anything like me, Murphy's Law presides at many things I do...

One way to test the ingredients, while waiting for a "chemist" here to answer, would be to rub a GC with each and see if any of them corrode. bruce381 mentioned Sodium Stearate and fatty acid will corrode. Ivory will probably contain free fatty acid left over (super-fatted) from sapponification so besides the Sodium Stearate there probably is fatty acid. I would assume that after the mineral and castor oils have polymerized there some fatty acid could still remain too. Maybe you could rub some soap on one GC and the polymerized oil on another to see what happens over time. I highly doubt lanolin is the culprit as one of its many uses is to prevent corrosion. Rockydog mentioned the battery effect, so if you are using metal pans to set you boolits in, you could test that too with a couple more GCs. I only use plain base boolits (so far), so I don't have any GCs to test with.

[bruce381]

normally you can stop or inhibit copper corrosion, the lube industry does that all the time for instance in some industrial gear units the worm is made of brass so aninhibitor is added to the gear oil takes small amount in the PPM range.

That additve would work in boolit lube also.

Email me I will send some inhibitor out if anyone wants to try or send me an ounce of the lube that causes this and i can run a ASTM copper corrosion test with and without additive.

In the normal ASTM copper corrosion test a test piece of copper is put in the oil or grease and heated to 212F for 3 hours and then compare to a standard color comparision corrosion scale that shows varying degrees of "stain" and then the sample would be rated.

This is a ASTM D-130
test.

[bruce381]

also copper alloy likes to form a reaction product with various things Brass is much more resistant to this and as such brass cases shpuld have No reaction with normal lubes used.

Copper will form sterate, oleate, cocate etc faily easy under heat or long contact and is a problem that the lube industry in that these "soaps" have good lubrication action and wetting power needed for metal foeming but has to adjusted for if used with any copper metalforming oils where a good lube is needed but corrosion cannot be tolerated.

[jandbn]

bruce381,

The offer for the corrosion test is much appreciated. I can't really speak for UTK, but I would assume he also appreciates the offer. My gut feeling is there is something else going on or we would of heard about the corrosion with Felix Lube a long time ago.

Just to clarify the original FWFL (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=543) (select FWFL for thread) recipe ingredients:

2 Tablespoons mineral oil
1 Tablespoon castor oil
1 Tablespoon Ivory, or homemade soap (grated)
1 Tablespoon Lanolin
Beeswax - Piece approximately 3 1/2" X 3 1/2" X 1 "

These are the ingredients I used. The Mineral Oil, Castor Oil, and Ivory were from Wally World. Nothing special, which was Felix's whole idea behind the lube. I've only been using it for the past few months even though making it last winter. So I readily admin that my experience with it so far is very minimal when compared to others here. FWFL is mentioned quite often on CB and has been in use for a long time. I was hoping at least somebody else had noticed the corrosion as indymadcaster. Well, actually I wasn't hoping! I actually prefer nobody has and somebody can figure out what is really going on with indymadcaster's GC's. There are too many people here that have used and do use FWFL for some one else not to have run into the corrosion. I feel bad for indymadcaster, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed that something else is going on that has nothing to do with the lube itself!

[geargnasher]

Firstbrit, the reason Felix indicates to heat the oils together is in fact to polymerize the castor oil. Cold-pressed castor bean oil has really small molecules, so small that they run out of the microcrystalline structure of beeswax like water from a sponge. Getting the hyrocarbon molecules to link up and make a larger molecule is the secret to keeping castor oil from leaking out of the finished lube.

As far as dissolving the soap, it shouldn't take more than about 15-20 minutes of additional cooking, and if it's smoking the whole time you're ruining the oils. I never let mine get over 300 F and have no trouble with getting the soap to dissolve, buy like many I've switched to stearic acid because it makes the lube much easier to make.

Gear

[bruce381]

no problem you can test yourself strip some romex wire and put a piece of the wire in a small glob of whatever lube or ingrediant you want to test.

put the cups with the lube and a wire in them on a plate in oven at 200F for a few hours then pull out wire and look if there is a stain where the wire is IN the lube then there maybe a problem latter.

[MT Gianni]

I just wanted to clarify that when Felix first shared his formula, before Carpetman dubbed it FWFL, he specified Anhydrous Lanolin. Is there a chance that water in the cheaper regular Lanolin could have caused the corrosion? I have not ween it with my FWFL. I have lubed boolits that have sat for 10 years and the checks are still copper colored.