which way reloading.

[koyote]

Well, actually, downrange is the obvious answer to that.

I've been doing very well reloading my pistol and rifle cartridges, but i am discovering a need for some specific shotgun reloading. I need a bit of help deciding which way to go.

The first bit, why am I reloading? I am not currently a trap shooter, though I have been and might do so again. I do shoot clays for fun a few times a month, blowing maybe 30-40 shells.

Most of my shotgunning is upland game, small varmint, medium varmint, and keeping my basic military shotgun skills from rusting completely away.

A couple big boxes of federal bulk pack in 12 and 20, 20-30 rounds of buckshot in each, and a few slugs a year can keep me going just fine.

But. I have a couple fairly odd needs. One, I love my marlin 30G and it's in great mechanical shape (I am finishing a stock refinish and touch up bluing right now). But it is a 30G, and I'd like to load a bit lighter for it. I also have a wife and kids who can sometimes be recoil sensitive and would like to load some reduced 20ga loads for them.

I also have a single shot 12 ga "pasture gun" that's made from on old monkey wards duck gun. I have specific load desires for that. And for my rossi SxS.

at some point i will also be loading for .410

To start with, I have a 20ga lee loader on the way. I can find, make (got a full machine shop) or buy star and roll crimp devices as desired.

Now, the detailed bit of what I actually use a shotgun for, aside from putting lead into clays and backstops.

Dove, quail, bunny are all on the list. I don't really need to look at deer and such with a shotgun, but I could have fun with 12ga slugs later on (everything is currently cylinder, modified, or improved) - I do have a fairly regular utilitarian varmint need. That includes a few specific pest birds, gophers and other pasture/garden diggers, and coyotes.

I am not hunting coyotes out in the desert, I am dealing with occasional 20-60 yard pasture shots. I have a fine .44 levergun for anything longer.

In more "serious" (to me, not to my vegetables and goats!) terms, while our rural living has taken me further from the shotgun for home defense- the aforementioned .44 lever is quite nice. But it's still a concern for my adoptive sister and wife as the 20ga pump (870 youth and 500) are their main choices. In 20ga, 3buck seems ideal, but I could mess around with some other options.

So, I need to load. There's quite the array of confusing hull and wad selections and I was considering starting with paper and fiber wads in the older style.

I've collected all my metallic loading manuals, but haven't picked my basic starting point for shotgun. The Speer style "you will die if you load anything other than this exact brand of cast bullet" manual is going to be less useful to me than the Lee style. I'd probably tend to stick with Unique as a powder if possible as I use it a lot in .38 and .44 special. I do use trailboss and am curious if that would work out, but don't want to experiment blind.

Anyone have any specific advice on which way to go and which parts to buy for old style loading?

[Reload3006]

I load shotgun shells because I can load what I want the way I want it. You ask a lot of good questions First let me get the money issue out of the way. If you are perfectly content on the Bulk packaged shotgun shells available at your local walmart you probably cant justify the costs to get into shotgun shell reloading. Also components are going to cost you too. But when all is said and done you can shoot a lot better shell for the same money.
Shotguns are a lot like metallic loading one powder does not fit all and the smaller the gauge goes the slower the powder needs to be. or in twelve the heavier the payload the slower the powder needs to be. Unique is a good shotgun powder I know of several people who use it I however do not.
In ten gauge i use Blue dot
In 12 gauge light loads 1 oz and 1 1/8 oz I use Red Dot it works great for me Hodgdon Clays is all so a good choice so is IMR 700X
for heavier loads I use Blue dot but there are lots of options I surely recomend a good book I would be happy to tell you how I work up my loads but I will not do it in open forum because of the same reasons Lyman and all the others tell you this recipe only Lawyer speak.

For the .410 bore The slowest pistol powder shotgun power is all there is Imr 4227 , 2400 H110 , Little gun, and alliant 410

[koyote]

I keep Unique, HS-6, Blue and Red Dot, Trailboss on hand and have a few others I am messing around with.

Good advice for starting. Using the lee loader in 20 to start I am not too concerned about materials costs. It's very possible I will end up getting a load-all for 12 and 20 as I go through this. Having watched a few hours of various youtube posts, I may also end up making some stuff. I have no problems hand scooping shot and powder in any case.

I'm sort of *assuming* that disc wads and cushions can end up cheaper than buying specific plastic wads, but no real idea.

[Reload3006]

if you buy the generic wads {Claybuster} they are i think around ten dollars for a bag of 500 pretty cheap.
The lee load all makes pretty good shells. I use a lot of fiber wads because I load a lot of old paper hulls. But the plastic wads imo are just too much easier. especially with out a wad pressure indicator its hard to to tell when you have the proper amount of wad pressure and volume taken up in your shotgun shell. I have been hearing all the hype since one piece wads with the shot cup came out. But Honestly I haven't been able to tell much difference in pattern with or with out them with the lone exception being my turkey gun in 10ga I had to get a choke that stripped the wad to get it to hold a tight pattern. Kinda goes against what all the hype was saying doesn't it.

[Flinchrock]

Check out shotgun world.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
When up north there I pop crows in the early mornings using a simple Outers crow call. A Fox B 12 guage is my most used tool with a .60 Flinter thrown in now & then. But over the years I have found#6 shot works near perfect except for those 2nd shots I try on that "other" crow streaking away. I am not the fastest on getting on the #2 bird and I had alot of "escapees" but which obviously had been hit with feathers floating down. I tried #6 in one tube & #4 in the second.. worked great for the 2nd long shot but not so well if there was a close 2nd shot which happens as often. Then had a thought.. why not mix the 2 shots in the same shell ?
So that is my standard crow load. #4 & #6 shot equally mixed.
Mike in Peru

[koyote]

I've considered getting to a mixing shot stage, I can see it working out well for some things.

Right now I mostly need to find the right manual for what i want to be doing. My older shotshell reloading handbook is very MEC specific, and VERY specific to liking a couple brands of plastic wad.

[Newtire]

I can tell you that Unique is a good powder for your 20 gauge for heavier loads. IMR7625 is alot cleaner.

For your .410:
If you shoot .44 mag, then you have to have a little Win 296/H-110 lying around. Like someone mentioned, just use the fast rifle powders in your .410 as pressure builds quicker with the smaller gauges. Get (or make) a roll crimper to put in your drill press to make those little crimps look and hold better than factory. The Precision one makes a rounder crimp but the BPI one works well also. They are both metal.

Unless you are looking to load something real special, it's hardly worth your time to load for the 12 gauge anymore what with the high price of shot. However, if you have alot of time, I would do it. I find myself shooting alot of 20, .410 and 10 gauge these days.

BPI has lots of great loads for free in their archives that are not real commonly covered in any of the loading manuals I have seen. They are from "The Curmudgeon" on their website. Have fun!

[Reload3006]

I want to caution you about "hand Scooping" there are some people on Youtube who think they are doing just fine with a nail and dowel rod. Making black powder shells they may be. But with smokeless powder Wad pressure is key and in most of your older manuals and powder pamphlets its specifically mentioned. I think Winchester stated that their data was compiled using 20lbs of wad pressure. When you use a dowel rod and a block of wood to load your shells you are playing with fire. You may get a shell that goes bang but you have no clue of what you really have it may do its job it may hurt you or it may just fizzle. Good luck and happy shooting.

[KYCaster]

Hi Koyote...here are a few of my thoughts.........

You said: "I've collected all my metallic loading manuals, but haven't picked my basic starting point for shotgun. The Speer style "you will die if you load anything other than this exact brand of cast bullet" manual is going to be less useful to me than the Lee style. I'd probably tend to stick with Unique as a powder if possible as I use it a lot in .38 and .44 special. I do use trailboss and am curious if that would work out, but don't want to experiment blind."

I think you'll find the "Speer style" the best path to follow till you gain some experience with shot shell reloading. A change in components can make a tremendous difference in the performance of a load. Changing brands of hulls or wads can lead to some serious problems so it's best to stick exactly to the book recipes. Even substituting "Claybuster" wads which are supposed to be "exact replacements" for more expensive brands doesn't always work well.

Experimenting with various loads, you can easily become overwhelmed by the number of components available, so I recommend picking one brand of hull and work with that until you have a better idea of where you want to go.

Since you mention Federal bulk pack ammo, I assume you've accumulated a supply of those so that would be the logical place to start. Their Gold Medal hull works well with 1 oz. and 1 1/8 oz. loads. (For a low recoil load try SR7625 with 1 oz. of shot)

For long range "turkey" loads I like Federal slug hulls...lots of internal volume. 1 1/2 oz. of shot and a heavy charge of SR7625 should work fine out to 40+ yds.

I guess you can tell I really like SR7625....that and Clays work for all my 12 ga. needs. I suppose Unique would do almost as well as Clays, but I'll stick with what works for me.

Good luck
Jerry

[plumberroy]

Hi Chistof
Since I carry one of you knives around. I have no doubt in your metal working skills. I have handed a 20 gauge roll crimper to some of the best tool and die makers in the auto industry and was told they would just as soon buy my one at $40 than try to make it by hand. For just a few "custom" loads I do fine with old lee loaders If you can find then at flea markets or yard sales you can get them cheap . they are getting expensive on ebay . hornandy crimp starters are cheap and can be use by hand. I
would think you could trade one of your knives for a real nice 20 ga reloading set up
Roy

[UNIQUEDOT]

I want to caution you about "hand Scooping" there are some people on Youtube who think they are doing just fine with a nail and dowel rod. Making black powder shells they may be. But with smokeless powder Wad pressure is key and in most of your older manuals and powder pamphlets its specifically mentioned. I think Winchester stated that their data was compiled using 20lbs of wad pressure. When you use a dowel rod and a block of wood to load your shells you are playing with fire. You may get a shell that goes bang but you have no clue of what you really have it may do its job it may hurt you or it may just fizzle. Good luck and happy shooting.

Well actually it's vice versa. Wad pressure is much more important with blackpowder than it is with modern smokeless powders. Wad pressure is no problem at all when using lee loaders or dowels because you are supposed to seat the wads on a bathroom scale so that you get the desired and repeatable pressure. With modern smokeless powders no wad pressure other than that offered by the crimp is needed.

The only reason wad pressure is still mentioned in some loads is because it requires that much collapse in the wad to get the desired crimp.

Here is a copy paste Q&A from the downrange website:

Q: How much wad pressure do we need to use?

A: No Shotgun shell powder manufactured today requires wad pressure to perform correctly.

In any case as a shooter that has burned many, many pounds of blackpowder over the past couple of decades i can assure you that it needs compression (preferably repeatable) in order to complete it's burn.

Some euro loads have 0 wad pressure in modern shells and none can be applied due to the design of the base wads and Winchester is doing the same thing with some loads. The days of required wad pressure (to complete burning) are over when it comes to smokeless powder.

[Reload3006]

Well actually it's vice versa. Wad pressure is much more important with blackpowder than it is with modern smokeless powders. Wad pressure is no problem at all when using lee loaders or dowels because you are supposed to seat the wads on a bathroom scale so that you get the desired and repeatable pressure. With modern smokeless powders no wad pressure other than that offered by the crimp is needed.

The only reason wad pressure is still mentioned in some loads is because it requires that much collapse in the wad to get the desired crimp.

Here is a copy paste Q&A from the downrange website:

Q: How much wad pressure do we need to use?

A: No Shotgun shell powder manufactured today requires wad pressure to perform correctly.

In any case as a shooter that has burned many, many pounds of blackpowder over the past couple of decades i can assure you that it needs compression (preferably repeatable) in order to complete it's burn.

Some euro loads have 0 wad pressure in modern shells and none can be applied due to the design of the base wads and Winchester is doing the same thing with some loads. The days of required wad pressure (to complete burning) are over when it comes to smokeless powder.

I dont know what sources your citing nor do i really care Wad pressure is key as is the seal on the powder. While you may not blow up your gun depending on the situation you may not be to pleased with a fizzle. Been there done that have the T shirt. Dont believe me i really don't give a damn. live an learn.

[UNIQUEDOT]

I dont know what sources your citing nor do i really care Wad pressure is key as is the seal on the powder. While you may not blow up your gun depending on the situation you may not be to pleased with a fizzle. Been there done that have the T shirt. Dont believe me i really don't give a damn. live an learn.

I was citing a wad manufacturer. Wad pressure has nothing to do with the seal on powder when using plastic wads and modern powder. The seal comes from obturation upon ignition.

Load some clear hulls and apply 0 wad pressure when seating the wads and it will give you an understanding of how the crimp applies the wad pressure since you can see it when it's applied. A federal wad with 0 pressure will spiral downward and winchester wads will crumple at least half way down while figure eights will have the circles compressed.

If you still don't believe me you can ask the wad manufacturers or perhaps the powder manufacturers. While you're at it you might want to let the ammunition manufacturers know that they don't know what they're doing as well. As mentioned the only reason some loads need wad pressure applied while seating them is so the load can be crimped without spilling shot out at the precrimp stage. A properly constructed load will never need wad pressure when seating the wad unless blackpowder is being used as it will be properly applied at the crimp station..

[Reload3006]

The problem with arguing with fools is they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. Funny the ammo mfrs all state wad pressure in their literature.

[UNIQUEDOT]

The problem with arguing with fools is they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. Funny the ammo mfrs all state wad pressure in their literature.

Trust me I'm not trying to argue and i wouldn't dream of being dragged down a level. I am simply trying to teach you something. I have already explained to you twice why wad pressure is needed in some loads. There are many published loads that simply do not work yet they are published only because they are safe.

Reloaders blindly load them and shoot them year after year thinking they have a good load simply because it's published. How many loads do you see every year with federal hulls and winchester or remington wads? neither wad is worth a flip in a federal hull due to migration which by the way is one other reason why at least some wad pressure is desirable.

If everyone whom is corrected or set straight on a subject just wanted to kick and scream and pitch a fit or call names rather than research and learn we would have never made it this far and we would all still think wad pressure was needed for modern wads/powder for the wrong reasons such as you do.

If you have a supply of cardboard and cushion wads and enjoy taking the time to load them with old smokeless powders such as alcan, then by all means apply the standard 40 lbs of pressure and carry on, but if you are using modern powder and wads you can apply it at the crimp stage which is much more important than trying to apply it with the rammer.

Some folks only load a few shells a year for hunting and have not tried all the different hulls and components available and therefore lack actual experience and perhaps that's a good excuse to sticking to the old ways. All you really need to do to get a lesson in wad pressure is load some clear hulls without wad pressure and watch and learn starting with the precrimp station and the final lesson will be realized at the final crimp stage.

When you post things like you did above it shows your inexperience to experienced shotshell loaders and is very poor advice to new reloaders. BTW i am not aware of any of the newer manuals listing any wad pressures for any other reasons than component fit in the hull. Perhaps this is where your misunderstanding stems? the crimp is what holds everything back while obturation occurs to seal the gases. As stated just load the clear hulls or better yet research for yourself. The wad manufacturers and the powder manufacturers/suppliers are all only a phone call away.

[Reload3006]

other than being an ignorant ******* I have been loading shot shells since about 1968 or so and I have probably loaded just about every american made hull including federals and the so call throw away cheap WW hulls. I dont always follow the load manual either but I would not in a place tell people not to because "I" know better I do not want their lives in my hands like that. Yep they are only a phone call away and yet still publish wad pressure I wonder why? Like I said do what ever floats your boat I really dont give a damn I dont know you and won't shed any tears when you either blow your self up or get gored by a hog because "Wad pressure" doesn't matter.

[waksupi]

Well, who wants spanked first?

[turbo1889]

It sure is starting to look like a thread from shotgunworld. Maybe you as a mod could just move it over to that forum since it fits a whole lot better over there then here. Another theory with-out facts argument with one or both sides claiming superior knowledge via. seniority that degenerated into a nasty match just like what happens over there on a daily basis.

[Newtire]

I'd say give em a set of gloves! Hey guys, some times it's good to just listen. I've heard alot of good stuff come out of these discussions, but when it turns into a shooting match complete with politician tactics, I lose interest. Shotgunworld has it's good and bad, just like this place does. Simmer down folks!

[UNIQUEDOT]

First off i only have a dollar store digital camera so it's very hard to get a picture with it that can actually be seen, but perhaps they are clear enough to get the idea. The first picture attempts to show a wad simply inserted with the index finger (this can be done because the hull is new). The second photo shows some wad pressure has been applied by the precrimp stage and the last two show how much pressure was applied at the final crimp stage.

If we would have applied this much wad pressure with the rammer of the press it would have lost most of it's compression (over 90%) before it made it to the precrimp station, but would have been reapplied at the final crimp stage. Even if the load ends up with no wad pressure it makes no difference as long as you don't have powder migration as the powder cup will obturate to seal the expanding gases behind it milliseconds after the hammer drops.

When loading clear hulls we can turn them over and bump them on the bench to see if migration occurs, but with colored hulls we must cut the hull at the cushion section of the wad after bumping it. If migration occurs we either didn't have the wad seated firm enough on the powder or we chose our components poorly.

When loading tapered hulls our wad pressure will neutralize in the same manner before it reaches the crimp stage, but the actual base of the wad will remain jammed into the taper of the hull. This can be important when it comes to load fit in the hull. If you run into modern loads listed with x amount of wad pressure it's a good idea to use that amount to prevent spilling shot at the precrimp stage.

Consistent crimp depth is the most important stage when assembling hand loaded or reloaded shotshells. The deeper the crimp the higher the pressure so be careful when loading high pressure loads especially when using tapered hulls and high pressure wads. Consistent loads are possible only with consistent crimp depths.

[LUBEDUDE]

Well I've been loading shotshells since 1969, I do not claim to know it all and I am open to learning something new. Rather than name calling or talking down to someone, you BOTH have inspired me to research things on my own.

Thank You