Hotrodding the .38 S&W

[dubber123]

Well, not really, but I finally got a mold that cast large enough for my 4" flat latch S&W. This bullet casts at 158 grains. My old Speer book lists 2.4 grains as max with Bullseye. I am at 2.5, 0 pressure signs, and to be honest, this doesn't feel even close to a standard .38 special out of an otherwise identical gun. I am contemplating working up to my standard .38 special Bullseye load of 2.7 grains, basically because I have a powder drop that is consistant at this weight, and frankly weighing out 2.5 grains of powder sucks. If I encounter nothing for pressure signs, does anyone see a problem with working up to the hotter load?

[Larry Gibson]

I doubt you'll have any problems with that. Lyman lists 2.6 gr Bullseye with a 158 dast bullet for solid frame S&Ws.

Larry Gibson

[monadnock#5]

My old Lyman's 45th Edition says 3.5 grains Bullseye is the max. So by that reference you're right in the middle. I don't think I'd go any hotter though. Most .38's don't like long term use of hot loads, and will loosen up much sooner than .357 mags using comparable loadings.

Ken

[leftiye]

How to say this.... Why go hot(ter) with bullseye? It will reach max pressures waaayyy before it reaches "good" velocities. If you want hot, try a mild .357 (bottom) load of HS7. It will not overload (esp. if you know how to measure cases for pressure), and delivers amazing velocity for/ pressure loads. Not as good as Alcan 7, but nobody's got that anymore.

[9.3X62AL]

Folks--I think he means "38 S&W" in the context of the little short-cased round from the 1870's, not the 38 Special.

I would be careful about even equalling 38 Special performance in that flat-latch J-frame. Somewhere around here I have an article by Ken Waters on loading the 38 S&W to roughly equal the 38 Special--200 grain bullets at 700 FPS, that sort of thing. He accomplished this by loading overall lengths equalling 38 Special OALs, seating the bullet long in cylinders like the Ruger Speed Six and S&W M&P with sufficient chamber length to allow that, and using 38 Special powder charges in those cartridges. That condition may not be present in your J-frame, and its strength does not measure up to K-frame capabilities. The use of +P 38 Special and now 357 Magnum chamberings in J-frames is a recent trend, enabled by advances in metallurgy not in existence at the time your flatlatch was built.

[mtngunr]

All too true.....the .38S&W is NOT the .38S&W Special, and hot Special loads in that smaller S&W case would be a disaster...my older '73 Lyman book lists 2.6/BE under the 358311....I love the catrtidge, having a target sighted Victory Model (no, not original).....what you get with the .38S&W is pretty much what you get when shooting standard Special ammo out of a snubbie, and no sense trying to push things in a case with no wiggle room....not exactly harmless, either....out of a K-frame, it hasn't much more recoil than a .22 magnum, extremely pleasant, great small game round.....for your next mold try shopping for an old Lyman/Ideal tong tool in .38S&W....makes great correct bullets....mine stays loaned out more than it stays here......I think it's in Indiana right now.......

[robertbank]

Deputy Al just gave you some very good advice and I would heed it. Why not enjoy the .39 S&W cartridge for what it is and try to wring out all the accuracy you can out of the gun and cartridge. If you want a .38 Special go out and buy a gun for the cartridge. The 38 S&W can be a lot of fun within the load ranges it was designed for. It is not .38 Spl capable.

Take Care

Bob

[Buckshot]

............I have two 38 S&W M&P/Victory models and an Iver Johnson 5 shot break open.

http://www.fototime.com/CD1F80B43CD4C22/standard.jpg

The ole IJ gets loads with a 150gr WC of like 1.8grs of BE. While it's as tight as a drum, and superbly crafted I won't exceed loads listed for it. Since the M&P's were designed as 38 Specials they'll stand 38 Special pressures so you can load to that. However, the only way you can be sure you're doing so (unless you have your own pressure gun), is to load to the same OAL as a 38 Special.

Lyman does list a couple 38 Special loads at OAL's that will fit in the chambers of the M&P's. At the load levels of the 38 S&W and especially in a break open, by the time you see pressure signs you've well exceeded safe and sane pressures.

...................Buckshot

[dubber123]

I will try to clear things up, and give some of my reasoning for doing this. Yes this is the Short .38 S&W round, not the .38 Special. I'm not really trying to hotrod it, I just hate weighing out 2+ grains of powder, and I have a drop I keep set for the 2.7 gr. charge, which is awful close to the manuals. The S&W is loaded to about 4,000 cup less than the Special, even though they are available in the same basic gun. I have probably 8-10 Specials, so I don't need to hot load this one, I just thought all things considered, the extra 2/10ths wouldn't hurt. Thanks.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Boy, a real thrill seeker! :D

[mtngunr]

I will try to clear things up, and give some of my reasoning for doing this. Yes this is the Short .38 S&W round, not the .38 Special. I'm not really trying to hotrod it, I just hate weighing out 2+ grains of powder, and I have a drop I keep set for the 2.7 gr. charge, which is awful close to the manuals. The S&W is loaded to about 4,000 cup less than the Special, even though they are available in the same basic gun. I have probably 8-10 Specials, so I don't need to hot load this one, I just thought all things considered, the extra 2/10ths wouldn't hurt. Thanks.

You were quite clear in the first post, but you know how the internet is.....folk get in such a hurry to be heard, they don't hear the question....done it myself........you're only talking 1/10th grain over the max listed by Lyman in '73, so impressions are that you should be fine....however, the case is small, and lacking pressure test equipment, there is no real way to know what that 1/10th additional grain is actually doing to pressure, exterior signs or not.....

[9.3X62AL]

Dubber, you would likely get away with the scenario you present--but it isn't a thing I would do. Those old J-frames are just too nice to "bend".

[dubber123]

I posted this basically for 2 reasons, 1 was a fit of boredom, and the other was that I came here from another site where even the mention of varying from a manual sent most of the members screaming into the woods. I was kinkd of feeling you guys out. You showed concern, which is good, but didn't lose your mind over it either. This is good. 4fingermick, yes I agree this isn't much of a boomer, but I do play with a few, recently a 6-1/2" Contender in 50-70, (435 grs. at 1,000), .475 Linebaugh, 4-3/4" (440's at 1,340), 416 Rigby, 400 grs. at 2,595).

[9.3X62AL]

I'm glad we "passed".

A lot of us here do evil things--like using surplus powders, duplexing powders, loading calibers for which no data exists, etc. I takes a pretty "out there" notion to get us to head for cover, I guess. We are used to being considered "out there" ourselves--just a short conversation about casting boolits for rifles can "lose" a lot of shooters and hunters. "Ya cain't shoot lead bullets in a high-power rifle, they'll melt down and blow up the thing!"

Of course they will.

[jobo12]

Well, not really, but I finally got a mold that cast large enough for my 4" flat latch S&W. This bullet casts at 158 grains.

Just to go back to your original post, what mold are you using? What diameter? I too shoot an old 4" Smith (Mod. 33, I think) as well as a "Terrier" and an ancient Colt Police Positive-- all in .38 S&W. I've had trouble finding suitable boolits for these guns. I have used .357" hollow-based wadcutters with limited success, but would love to cast the proper pills for these old pieces. They are great fun to shoot, and I would just like to duplicate the factory loads-- I've got lots of brass.
Thanks,
Joe

[mtngunr]

As I suggested in an above reply, you might try to find an old Lyman/Ideal tong tool with mold for the .38 S&W.....it casts a period correct long ogive RN bullet of proper diameter, and the world is not exactly on fire for lack of .38 S&W molds, so costs can be reasonable.....

[9.3X62AL]

The easiest--but likely not the least expensive option--would be to get a mold purpose-built for the revolver(s) being fired. Most of the fixed-sight revolvers were regulated for the 146 grain boolits at 700 FPS or so, so a mold dropping 145-150 grain bullets at sufficient diameter for your cylinder throats should fill the bill. The 38 S&W's "mininal" bullet diameter is supposed to be .361", but my two examples need .362" (Webley-Enfield) and .363" (S&W). Both were regulated for the 178 grain British service load (about 775 FPS), so my solution will be to get the NEI #169A mold that closely duplicates that service bullet's weight and profile.

If your revolver's throats are around .360"-.361", you may be able to "Beagle" a 38/357 mold to produce boolits wide enough for your project. I have been able to get Lyman #358430 (195 grain RN) out to .361" by applying aluminum HVAC tape to the block faces of this mold, but that is as much "cheat" as the process allows. If I try taping both sides of the mold block, the dratted thing will produce finned boolits. I even tried dipper pouring to see if that would make a difference--it did, the fins weren't as big. :-( .361" wasn't enough for my fat-throated rollerpistols, so I will bite the bullet and get the right tool for the job. Gotta stop buying cool guns to do that, though. Since November, a new toy shows up every six weeks or so that I cannot live without--so my disposable capital gets used up on hardware instead of support tooling. Some of the less-used war toys are now on the block, maybe after they find their way outbound I can re-tool more conveniently.

[Tristan]

There are old reloaders, and bold reloaders, but few old, bold reloaders... ;)

[dubber123]

jobo12, the mold I got lucky with was a 358430, one made in the 150 grain weight, (this one casts about 158), even though it is listed as .358", this ones about .362", way out of spec, but lucky for me. I also bought a Lyman 35864, which I am positive is the correct origional style bullet, but it casts at .358", too small for my guns. I have only tried a few out of the larger 358430, but it appears to have made a big difference.

[9.3X62AL]

Dubber--

That short #358430 might be just the ticket for your revolver. I know my long-edition #358430 is VERY accurate in 38 Special and 357 Magnum at all sane intensities, and stays that way at longer ranges.

[dubber123]

Deputy Al, I bought it thinking it was one of the 195 grainers, which I've always wanted to try, and it ended up the lighter one, but fat enough for a gun that needed it, so I guess that works! I have a bunch of .358" molds anyways. (I WILL get one of the 195 gr 358430's someday). My only heavy bullet .35 mold is RCBS's 180 silouette mold, which has been very accurate for me in a wide range of guns. I bought it for my S&W mod. 28, but found the cylinder is too short. (NUTS!). It will fit in a J-frame though, go figure.

[9.3X62AL]

With all the discussion and commentary on the SWC and Keith designs since the 1930's, the RN designs are kind of a forgotten step-child sometimes. #358430 is a very blunt profile, and although it lacks the sharp shoulder of #358311 or the wide range of SWC's, it still anchors jackrabbits pretty solidly with center-mass hits. Would I use it on deer? Probably not--the 180 grain flat nose is a better design for terminal ballistics. But that boolit has a tall contract on its hands to beat the accuracy the the old Lyman RN.

If there are any descriptor letters near or around the mold number on your blocks, they could indicate an intentionally oversized cavity cut. Given its weight, that is entirely possible, in order to service the fatter 38 Short & Weak.

[dubber123]

Deputy Al, I took a second look, and there is a "P", to the lower left of the mold #. Don't know what it means, maybe you do. 38 Short & Weak, very funny. Ha ha ha ha ha! Got a good one for my .32 long? Thats even weaker!, ( but still one of my favorites).

[9.3X62AL]

Floodgate is one of our resident experts on Lyman nomenclature--you might send him a PM on the question. He has likely forgotten more than I will ever know on the subject.

"Short & Weak" was borrowed from my description of the 40 S&W, being a long-time owner of 10mm autopistols--and a more recent adoptor of the 40 S&W.

FWIW--I use my 9mm Makarov tungsten-carbide sizer on 38 S&W cases destined for my fat-boolit loads. The RCBS Cowboy die set is kind of a "whatzis" in some respects. The set comes with two expander stems, but neither is wide enough for .363" boolits--and both have spuds too long for the 38 S&W case. The spud bottoms out before the flare can be set on the case mouth. Also, the centering chamber for the boolit in the seater die won't accept a bullet over .361"--they stick at .363". So, a little tweaking needs doing with my tooling.

[dubber123]

Deputy Al, I contacted Floodgate, and you were right, he definately seems to know his stuff about the Lyman molds. It turns out Lyman considered anything from .358" to .363" to be "in spec". It's a luck of the draw thing. I just lucked out...(for once).

[9.3X62AL]

I'LL SAY you lucked out!

Best of luck with that 38 Short & Weak project. I enjoy my two "rollers" in that caliber. Actually, there is a third one--an old Iver Johnson "Owl Head" 3" in the darker recesses of the safe. I assembled some loads with sized-down Makarov boolits (100 grain blunt RN) a few years ago, with gnat-belch pressure levels. Accuracy was--well, modest.

I should drag it out and do The Tale Of The Tape on it.

[dbldblu]

About a month ago I bought an old Ideal 358311 off of Ebay. It goes .363". I have an older (circa 1970) 358477 that goes .361". I think the older molds tend to be a little larger.

[dubber123]

I'll have to do some measuring. The old vs. new theory is interesting, it would give me another excuse to look for old molds! Thanks.

[Buckshot]

http://www.fototime.com/48343BFA434AB36/standard.jpg

I just found this. Forgot I'd even shot it. This was from the blued M&P 38 S&W with the 4" bbl I got from my dad. Fired at 25 yards. These were with Lee 358-148 WC's cast of pure lead and then I swaged in a HB and bumped them to .362".

http://www.fototime.com/B8AC5913DE564B1/standard.jpg

This one I shot at 25 yards no less, with the little 5 shot Iver Johnson break open 38 S&W. Not too bad for a old nightstand revolver, eh?

................Buckshot

[dubber123]

Buckshot, your Iver shoots a bit better than mine! I'm still trying to finagle a cheap way to get a fat enough bullet to fit the throats on mine. I picked up an oddball mold I thought would work, but I think I'd have to size down too much, so now I'm unsure.

[45nut]

minor kinda hijack..I have some 38S&W brass,,once fired ,200pcs I would gladly trade for 32S&W straight up.

[dubber123]

45nut, I don't have much 32 S&W at all. I might be interested in just buying your brass though.

[Buckshot]

Buckshot, your Iver shoots a bit better than mine! I'm still trying to finagle a cheap way to get a fat enough bullet to fit the throats on mine. I picked up an oddball mold I thought would work, but I think I'd have to size down too much, so now I'm unsure.

................Well if I ever get a few free days, I'd thought about making some press mounted bump dies to make .358" cast boolits into .362" cast boolits :-)

..............Buckshot