Reloads not chambering

[TCoggins]

Gents - I've been lurking here for a while, and now have a question I'm hoping you can answer.

I have been loading for rifles for a little over a year now, both cast and J-word bullets, and have just started loading for handguns.

I am in the process of reloading some 38 specials, to be shot in my GP-100. Using Dardas 148 grain wadcutter bullets. I have loaded 24 rounds so far, and 6 of the rounds will not chamber easily. The remaining 18 rounds drop into the chamber with no problem, but these 6 rounds stop short by about 1/8". All cases were prepped the same.

Is there a possibility that the bullet was started crooked, and bulged the case? Not sure what to do here. I don't feel comfortable shooting these, so I'll probably just pull them and see if I can see any issues.

I also loaded 24 rounds with Dardas 125 grain round nose flat point bullets, and there are no chambering issues.

Anyone ever have this happen to them?

Thanks.

Tim

[Olevern]

Sometimes if you roll crimp too hard the crimp will expand the case and cause fitment problems.

If you are going to roll crimp, you need to make sure your case lengths are all the same so that your crimps are uniform.

I usually taper crimp the full wadcutters as then case length is not as critical, and with wadcutters you are usually using pretty mild loads.

Even if you roll crimp over the wadcutter, you don't need much of a crimp with these boolits and mild to med. loads, as you are usually using quick burning powders.

[Ben]

What is the brand of cases ? Are they all the same brand ?

Is there a chance that some of your brass is +P brass ?

Some of the + P brass has a " taper " on the inside of the case. 148 gr. W/C's will seat deep enough to cause a bulge in the approx. center of the case that may prevent smooth chambering. DO NOT shoot the rounds that won't chamber smoothly.

[TCoggins]

Olevern - I will check the crimp on the cases, but I suspect that may not be the issue, as I trimmed all the cases before loading, and I only have 6 out of 24 that are issues.

Ben - I checked, and all the rounds that do not chamber are Winchester 38 SP +P brass. I was not aware of the taper in the case, although that does make sense.

The brass I am using was from some reloads that a local company manufactured, using once fired brass, so I had a mix of different types of brass. I think I need to sort the brass to use only standard 38 sp (not +P) with the wadcutters.

While I was convinced that I would not shoot these, I was still thinking about what would happen if I did. I suspect if the cartridge is tight in the chamber, and I forced it in the rest of the way, I would create a situation that was essentally pinching the case between the bullet and the chamber. It seems like this would create a pressure spike that I want no part of. Does that sound like what may happen?

I think my best bet would be pull the bullets, re-size the cases, and load them with shorter bullets.

Thank you gentlemen for the info.

Tim

[Olevern]

Definately do not want to fire a cartridge that is pinched in the case. You are right, if there is no room for the case to expand and release the boolit, you will experience pressure spikes.

[405]

Might be a good time to think on investing in some new brass of the same headstamp. 38 Spl is fairly cheap and it is common. I think Starline is about
$65-70 per 500.

[Ben]

TCoggins :

I've experienced the very problem that you had. It has always happened with either WCC military 38 Spec. cases or + P cases. I NEVER use these for loading wadcutters. They are however useful with 110 gr. and 125 gr. loadings where the bullet doesn't protrude as deep into the case. The rounds will chamber fine with bullets of this weight.

Ben

[zxcvbob]

That's why I [reluctantly] have a Lee "factory crimp" die for .38 Special. The ones that actually get resized by the die get set aside for plinking, but honestly I haven't noticed any decrease in accuracy compared to the rounds that just slide thru the die and barely touch the sizer ring.

I do the same thing with .41 Magnum and cast boolits.

[TCoggins]

This is why I don't rush through reloading issues. All the advice you guys have given is terrific, and very much appreciated. While I had no intention of firing these, it is nice to know what was happening and why.

Ben - I will sort the cases I have and use the +P cases for the 125 gr loads.

405 - New brass sounds like a pretty cheap investment. Thanks for the heads up on the Starline brass.

Thanks for all the help and Merry Christmas.

Tim

[405]

I just happened to check Midway last night and that was the price and it is in stock.

[CJR]

Suggestion. Buy an inexpensive cartridge gauge to gauge all your reloads. This will tell you about problems on reloads BEFORE they get into you gun. When you reload large quantities of ammo, initially the ammo will be acceptable then as the dies get dirty, case brands change, etc. the ammo dimensions will change. You cannot assume the ammo will be good just because it was good before. Gauging all your reloads takes only minutes and insures the ammo will chamber properly.

Best regards,

CJR

[TCoggins]

CJR - I have never heard of a cartridge gauge, I just had my revolver at my reloading bench, making sure the cartridges fit in the chamber. However, the order I just placed at Midway for some new brass also included a cartridge gauge.

Thanks for the info.

Tim

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I had a similar experience that I do not have a full explanation for. Seeking a light .38 for my son shooting cowboy I bought a nice 125 grain LRN 3 cavity mold at a gunshow. Then I bought a pair of Italian single action junior frame revolvers. The 125 grain LRN were run through my luber resizer and loaded in .38 brass. About 10% would not chamber. Assuming the problem was the Italian chamber bores the revolvers went to my gunsmith. He said the chambers were within spec. The Italian revolvers chamber my RCBS 140 gr home cast boolits run through the same luber resizer. It appeared there was a bulge at the crimp that prevented chambering. I couldn’t force some of these rounds into the chambers with my thumb. I don’t understand what the problem is but I fixed it by taper crimping after roll crimping the 125 gr bullets that wouldn’t chamber. Maybe I need to have Priest exorcise the devils out of my 3 cavity mold. My son is outgrowing the junior frame revolvers and I have acquired a pair of unconverted Ruger 3 screw BH .357’s and ordered a nice new holster rig from El Paso Saddlery for him. He will be shooting the 140 boolit.

[williamwaco]

Just a thought.

If they are military cases they are much thicker than commercial cases and seating a bullet very deep can cause them to expand s much then will not chamber.



.

[GabbyM]

I picked up 500 pieces of Star-Line 38 sp brass from Dillon last week along with an order of the dies and conversion plate. $70.95 for the 500. Couple bucks higher than direct from StarLine but it was on the same order and shipping.

[rintinglen]

I strongly recommend the Lee FCD for this application. I used to load and shoot thousands of WC 38's for PPC and did not have time to dally over each cartridge, carefully massaging it to perfection. I was using mixed brass and frequently had trouble with overly thick brass--especially nickel S&W brass--bulging. At first I used a taper crimp die after roll crimping to smooth things out, but a few years later I got a Lee FCD and my problems went away. I do not recommend them for 9 mm, but for revolvers they work well. I also use them in lever actions, especially the 30-30.

[Dframe]

Sometimes if you roll crimp too hard the crimp will expand the case and cause fitment problems.

If you are going to roll crimp, you need to make sure your case lengths are all the same so that your crimps are uniform.

I usually taper crimp the full wadcutters as then case length is not as critical, and with wadcutters you are usually using pretty mild loads.



Oleveren has your answer. Taper crimp and the problems will dissappear!

[Char-Gar]

It is impossible for me to comment without a picture. However, I should think, that is some rounds chamber with easy and others don't, a careful examination of both types will show you the difference which will be the problem.

[Treeman]

TCoggins, It is wise to back away from shooting rounds that do not chamber easily. However, in a situation such as you postulated where the issue is merely tight chambering with lead wadcutters seated in thick brass you are very unlikely to encounter any problem with any round that actually chambers-even if it require a little thumb pressure to get it in there. The pressure required to actually swage down a lead bullet is quite small compared to normal breech pressures and the extra bullet pull due to case friction on a round that seats by hand (albeit with difficulty) is small enough to get swallowed up in the variables.

[NSP64]

You can use +p cases, just dint seat the boolit all the way in the case. I load my WC boolits sticking out as far as the chamber will allow.:drinks:

[ubetcha]

I've had conerns with military cases due to wall thickness and also some nickel cases as well

[CJR]

TCoggins,

Gauges for LOADED cartridges are readily available from Dillon or Wilson (not the 1911 company). For revolver cartridges, in addition to detecting case bulging, etc.,they also check the OAL to insure it doesn't project past the cylinder. For rimless semi-loaders, they check for case bulging, measure the OAL, and also measure the rim diameter (i.e. burrs or growth) which must slide up into the extractor.

Best regards,

CJR

[TCoggins]

CJR - That's what I thought they were for, based on your previous post. My intent is to use it as a final inspection (after a visual inspection), of the loaded round before it goes into my ammo box.

I made a trip to the range today and fired off my first batch of reloads, and am pleased with the results.

I am even more pleased with the responses from everyone here steering me in the right direction with my issues.

Thanks.

Tim

[williamwaco]

It is true that crimping can cause problems. It can really damage the case if it is over done.
It is also true that the .38 special needs a crimp. BUT it needs only the very slightest crimp.

Please see this page for actual examples of actual crimps for .38 special.


http://www.reloadingtips.com/how_to/crimping_revolvers.htm



.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

Over the years, I acquired and used a lot of military brass in 38 special. The brass is thicker and I found that trying to use casts that were sized to .357 resulted in harder seating and in some instances, mild bulging of the cases....and harder chambering. I reduced the sizing diameter to .356 (without any significant loss of accuracy) and the problems went away. In the 38 special, especially with wadcutters and light loads it is not necessary to use anything more than a very mild taper crimp. If using 158 grain SWC's or Roundnoses, and heavier loads with thicker military brass, the same sizing reduction is also necessary. If a roll crimp is applied it cannot and should not be excessive or it will cause interference with chambering whether the brass is milspec or regular brass. Forcing an oversized round of any caliber into a chamber and then firing it creates a dangerous situation because of the constriction; It raises the pressure to levels that can damage the gun and injure the shooter. Not worth the risk at all! Cull the ammo, disassemble it and start over. Better safe than sorry. LLS

[zxcvbob]

Over the years, I acquired and used a lot of military brass in 38 special. The brass is thicker and I found that trying to use casts that were sized to .357 resulted in harder seating and in some instances, mild bulging of the cases....and harder chambering. I reduced the sizing diameter to .356 (without any significant loss of accuracy) and the problems went away. In the 38 special, especially with wadcutters and light loads it is not necessary to use anything more than a very mild taper crimp. If using 158 grain SWC's or Roundnoses, and heavier loads with thicker military brass, the same sizing reduction is also necessary. If a roll crimp is applied it cannot and should not be excessive or it will cause interference with chambering whether the brass is milspec or regular brass. Forcing an oversized round of any caliber into a chamber and then firing it creates a dangerous situation because of the constriction; It raises the pressure to levels that can damage the gun and injure the shooter. Not worth the risk at all! Cull the ammo, disassemble it and start over. Better safe than sorry. LLS

The Lee "Factory Crimp Die" takes care of this. You can either cull the ammo that gets resized, or go ahead and shoot it. (Or shoot it but relegate it to "plinking".) In general, I think the FCD is a solution looking for a problem, but it really is useful for this case.

[CJR]

TCoggins,

One final caution for the 38. Years ago, the NRA seated the same weight 38 bullet to different depths in cases with the same powder charge. Then they had the pressures measured. The deeply seated bullets gave pressures of 50,000 to 60,000 psi. Lesson learned? OAL is critical for pressure. Make sure your crimp, roll or taper, prevents any bullet movement. A good range test is to load your cylinder with one marked round. Shoot all rounds except the marked round. Leave the marked round in the cylinder and reload the cylinder with new rounds. Continue doing this until you've gone through about a box of ammo. Then look at the marked round and see if its moved at all. If it was crimped properly, you should have no bullet movement in the case. If you do see bullet movement, it most likely will be the OAL increasing which will prevent the cylinder from rotating. Not good.

This can also be done with auto loaders by continually feeding one marked round into the chamber but not firing it. Instead eject that marked round and load it first into another mag. Repeat this cycle. If , after shooting about a box of ammo, the marked round doesn't get seated deeper the crimp is good.

Best regards,

CJR

[TCoggins]

CJR - That is excellent advice. Thank you.

Up until now, I was shooting reloads that were made locally (there was a business in town, with an 06 FFL, that reloaded ammo). When shooting 38's, there were no issues. But when shooting 357's, on the last couple shots, the action was a bit stiffer to cock or shoot double action.

I don't have any more of that ammo, and will be reloading my own from now on, but the test you recommended is a great idea.

Thanks again.

Tim

[atr]

another though
....sometimes the cast boolit is soft and will distort enough during swaging such that the loaded round will not seat properly. This distortion occurs when you use the wrong top punch during the swaging process. I have found this especially true with soft WC type boolits. You might want to check the leading edge for distortion of those cartridges that would not seat.

[TCoggins]

I am attaching a photo of one of the loads that will not chamber. It appears that the case wall is too thick, and the case is just bulged at the bottom of the bullet. Not the greatest quality photo, but I think you can see what is going on.

I have 6 of these loads, and will just dispose of them properly, and only use wadcutter bullets in the non- plus p cases.

Thanks for all the help.

Tim

[TCoggins]

Gentlemen - It's been a couple weeks ince I last posted to this thread, but I want to take this opportunity to thank all of you who helped me out with advice.

It is nice having a place like this to get answers to my questions from experienced folks like yourselves.

Thanks.

Tim