FYI RCE Corbin NIX on Reloading Swages

[Swageocast]

Happy Holidays everyone,,,,

This is just something I ran across while surfing around ,,,,not my words but,, but from the horses mouth !!

>>>Reloading presses have been used to swage small caliber bullets almost since the invention of the loading press but such dies are not a very good way to make bullets. One problem with using a loading press is that the linkage, pins, and toggle of the press are too light for the task. The swaging dies usually don’t have any automatic ejection system so that a mallet must be used to knock the bullet out of the die. Attempting to swage rifle bullets much over .30 caliber or pistol bullets over .45 caliber puts far too much load on the press and can damage it. More importantly the typical loading press has a long stroke that greatly limits the amount of pressure the press can develop. This means that it is difficult to swage larger caliber bullets, especially in rifle calibers. The press also does not have a long enough “throat’ so that it is not possible to use special tooling in it. Bullets can be made using a reloading press but the process is tedious, tiring, and limits what can be done.

>>>RCE, LLC no longer makes any reloading press swages.

Just so youall were aware !!! Ho Ho Ho :-)

[BT Sniper]

That's why we make the reloading press look like this :) When one gets serious into swaging a Corbin, CH or Aneat (castboolits build) dedicated swaging press would be a good investment. Till then I continue to use the $74 modified Lee Classic Cast.

Automatic ejector...CHECK!
Stronger linkages....CHECK!
Shorter stroke with more leverage..... CHECK!
Quick, simple, easy bullet production..... CHECK!
Corbin trying to sell expensive swage press... CHECK!
Ability to swage whatever you want for $74 and some mods.... PRICELESS :)

Granted he makes a good press but that dosn't mean we can't make a reloading press work too.

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/pressupgrade002.jpg

Good shooting and Swage On!

BT

[cgtreml]

BT we need to talk about your Automatic ejector for my CSP-1

[Swageocast]

Thats absolutly correct Brian ,,,

You ARE pulling the proverbial Rabbit "bullet" out of the Reloading Press hat and making Fine ,,,and I mean Fine looking bullets with your equipment.

Hey as I have said YOU are allowing those of us with Challenged $$$ to go ahead and start enjoying the swaging Arts. :-)

Swageocast

[DukeInFlorida]

Swageocast,

If you were in Corbin's business, you'd also be saying things like:

"You have to buy our swaging press or else you won't be able to make good swaged bullets"

So, we know he had a vested interest in writin what he wrote. Doesn't make it true, however.

[Swageocast]

Well Mr. DukeInMaine,,

I need alittle clarification on what you mean,,,I read what he "Corbin" wrote RIGHT off the Website.

I don't pretend to understand WHY he is "no longer offering THOSE dies" ,,,,BUT from a marketing point of view I would think it is NOT a good move.

But from the mans "RCE Corbin" particular circumstances it's ANYBODYS GUESS as to REALLY why he decided to no longer offer said dies.

It might be he has enough business with offering his Walnut Hill dies and presses and whatnot.

It might be he just doesent want to be "bothered" with reloading type dies anymore????

I get the feeling from the way his website reads he is not so much a fan of some of the work he did when he was working with his brother. JUST my opinion. :-)

If anyone REALLY finds out I would like to know???

Happy Holidays to YOU DukeInMain.

[BT Sniper]

Yep there is much "behind the sceens" of the corbin brother story. As far as the orginal post goes I did not notice he implied he no longer wishes to make or offer dies for use in convential presses. Thought he was was just talking about presses. Anyway both the corbins are plenty busy I'm sure with any and all of their dies and presses. They won't be around forever.

So is this "corbin" (dave) or "RCE" (richard) or both that staited "no longer offeres dies for standard reloading presses"?

It is most likly a matter of quality control. If a customer says I can't make good bullets but isn't using "recomended" press then what is the seller to do? Kind of like my soon to be situation with my auto ejector and the upcoming BTSniper riffle caliber dies with small .125, .095 and .062 ejection pins vs. using a mallet to eject the bullets with. Obviously better results will be obtained with my "recomended" ejector but I can't make the cutomer buy it. So it probably all comes down to quailty control and ways to ensure the customer is able to make the quality bullet you have said they can.

Or maybe they have seen what BTSniper is offering and figure they can move on with their own custom dies..... LOL! kidding! but a long shot of possibility :)

Truth of the matter swaging is hard on equipment and a good strong press is very helpful!

BT

[Swageocast]

NO this is JUST "RCE Richard Corbin" making this statement on his website ,,,I had alittle trouble finding it this evening ,,,I first located it one of those insomnia nights looking bloodshot eyed at the computer.

Thank the swage Gods I wrote myself a note to post it when I got a chance.

I take it like it READS "no longer offers Reloading Press Swages"

You readin it JUST like it's off the Site!!!

Dave Corbin on the other hand seems at this writing to continue to offer reloading press dies.

BUT they seem to be very close to the same price as his other S series dies ???? Which need a dedicated Press.

Anyway Happy holidays to Youall !! :-)

[Mountain Prepper]

Or maybe they have seen what BTSniper is offering and figure they can move on with their own custom dies..... LOL! kidding! but a long shot of possibility :)

Truth of the matter swaging is hard on equipment and a good strong press is very helpful!

BT

We may well be witnessing an upswing in swaging again, and it may well be moving like a wave from the center - the center actually here on the internet.

I am encouraged to see things move up and creative ideas pop out - the modifications to the Lee press are nothing short of a great impact to swaging.

[DukeInFlorida]

Here's more explanation:


The business model for BOTH companies (both of the Corbin brothers) is to sell equipment to companies (not just individuals) who plan on being Class VI bullet manufacturers.
They once also catered to individuals. They no longer cater to individuals, but will sell tools to individuals if you are willing to wait long enough and pay the price.
Class VI bullet manufacturers had issues with cranking out thousands and thousands of bullets in reloading presses. Wear and tear, pivot pin breakage, etc. All of that caused customers to overwhelm Corbin with tech support questions. The quick solution was to advise customers that reloading presses are not the way to commercially make bullets.
The current business model caters to the commercial companies, most of whom use Corbin HYDRAULIC machines for squeezing metal into bullets.
A lot of info on the Corbin sites (plural) relate to the promotion of the notion that there's money to be made in the manufacturing and selling of bullets.


You can't take an excerpt from the Corbin site by itself, and try to draw a conclusion from the raw excerpt. You have to take the excerpt in the context of what else is on their site, and their history in the business.

Step back about five steps (tunnel vision will keep you from seeing the big picture), and take a new look at their entire site, and see what kind of business they want, and what kind of machinery they promote to cater to that business.

They really want guys to make an investment in equipment for the making of large volumes of bullets for sale.

Hope that helps you out.

[Houndog]

This IS just 100% PURE BS!!! People who make FAR superior (and their price reflects it) swaging equipment (Neimi, Dietch, ETC) to Corbins USE AND RECOMEND RCBS Rockchucker presses for use with their dies! They DO change the rams and add an ejector frame like BT Sniper's to them, but that's about it. Even the commercial custom Benchrest bullet makers that make hundreds of thousands of bullets use them. Consider the economic positions of the Corbins statements and be your own judge. You HAVE TO buy our press to go with our die sets to make "good" bullets. PURE BS at it's best.

[GerryM]

The original post has Merit but so do some of the others.
I have to agree with Houndog to some extent. Barts makes thousands of bullets for sale made on rockchucker presses.
Dave and Richard both have opinions and stand by Some pretty old technology.
Today we are using Rockchucker and similar O presses. They may have been talking about the older C type presses. Later after the C presses came out they made a metal bar , They
called a stong back to reinforce the C press. That was for bullet swaging amd also sizing some of the longer heavier Cases.

[MIBULLETS]

Some good points have been made here. I can see both sides. IMHO, a reloading press, properly set up can make excellent bullets up to a reasonable limit. That limit being the size of the die because it is limited by the design using a 7/8x14 size die. Eventually you run out of metal. For bigger bullets or where more pressure is required to form a bullet, the Corbin style will win out since the die size can be much larger to contain the pressure required. Plus the automatic ejection is built into the press.

[7of7]

I can understand the statement. More the reasoning that he won't be making sets for the reloading presses. The newer presses, aren't made to hold up to the abuse of swaging. It is clear from the modifications that BT has made to his. Not so much the frame, but the linkages. A little disclaimer also to avoid legal hassles later on. Given time, I am sure that some bozo will file a suit saying that they sold them equipment that lead to them breaking their equipment.
I have swage presses, CSP-1's, which I use. I also have a Rockchucker which I use for sizing, primarily.. and use the Dillon for the loading. (just don't like sizing bottleneck cases on the dillon.. and besides, I do trim them to size after I size.
For RCE Corbin to stop producing a specific type of dies, means that he should be able to produce the other dies quicker. Only one style to do, instead of two..

[Swageocast]

Well folks,, I must bow to DukeInMaines observations about the Corbin brothers Business model.

I wholly suspect your correct Sir in your hypothosis ,"WHEN it applies to Dave Corbin & his
remaining business.

After all Dave Corbin by his own admission is ,,was,, is the "idea man ,,,the writer/Marketer if you will.

Richard Corbin on the other hand was the shop Forman for like 24 years HE WAS the hands on guy.

If YOU have access to any older Corbin books or Tech Bullitons YOU will see that the MAN standing with TED SMITH in MANY of the photos in those early days learning the Art of die manufacture
WAS RICHARD CORBIN.

I don't recollect seeing ANY pictures of Dave Corbin with Ted Smith in any of the Printed information.

NOW to be FAIR I only HAVE the Corbin catalogs going back to #3. Catalog and Handbook of Swaging.

Does anybody have a #1. or #2. Catalog & handbook of Swaging by the early Corbins ?????

Sorry I digress :-),, anyway "I feel " there are many other factors that are motivating
Richard Corbin to operate his business in the way that he does.

I mean come on The Corbins Dident Split the blanket because everything was all NICE & Wonderful,,, eh???

I HAVE read Richards whole website and by his own admission he "started HIS OWN SHOP for various reasons",, and that was to make presses and dies to HIS satisfaction ,,,NOT necessarly to fit the business model that he worked under while working with his brother.

Many of HIS own statements about "the brothers Dies and there inherent weakness due to the neck construction speaks volumes of HIS disatisfaction with them.

Plus when refering to his brothers shop,, It's almost in a detached way like he was refering to a weak autobody shop down the street. Just My opinion. :-)


Other than ALL THAT,,,,in the Holiday Spirit ,,,Im just going to have to agree to disagree on some points of this conversation.

Merry Christmas to YOU all and & It's been a pleasure to converse with YOU Mr. DukeInMaine.

A Happy Holdays to YOU and YOURS. :-)

Swageocast.

[runfiverun]

good thing i don't plan on making anything over 30 cal in rifle or over 45 cal in revolver.

[Mountain Prepper]

This IS just 100% PURE BS!!! People who make FAR superior (and their price reflects it) swaging equipment (Neimi, Dietch, ETC) to Corbins USE AND RECOMEND RCBS Rockchucker presses for use with their dies! They DO change the rams and add an ejector frame like BT Sniper's to them, but that's about it. Even the commercial custom Benchrest bullet makers that make hundreds of thousands of bullets use them. Consider the economic positions of the Corbins statements and be your own judge. You HAVE TO buy our press to go with our die sets to make "good" bullets. PURE BS at it's best.

MIBULLETS and GerryM bring up some very illuminating points as well as DukeInMaine who has one of the bets points.

I am concerned with this above quote from Houndog. Where exactly is the PROOF for the statement
FAR superior (and their price reflects it) I have to say this has been hashed out many times and there is absolutely no proof. That business about price and materials is just as much marketing BS as the other!

As far as hand operated machinery a simple and elementary review of the presses from corbin, RCE, and our own UPNorth bely the statement that purpose-built machines are in someway equaled by others. As much as I support the changes proposed here on the website, the B&A/Smith inspired presses and special dies are designed for that one use and are both faster to use, easier to adjust and less awkward (all by design).

[Mountain Prepper]

The original post has Merit but so do some of the others.
I have to agree with Houndog to some extent. Barts makes thousands of bullets for sale made on rockchucker presses.

In line with Duke we have to consider - yes the small niche market of handmade bencherst bullets may make hundreds of thousands...

Any here know how many well known bullet brands out there started with Corbin equipment? On this equipment many millions of bullets have been produced.

I have stated before the main reason for higher quality benchrest bullets is the care and time taken in the production, many of the methods are mythology that acts to slow the process down and increase that almost individual piece care.

[BT Sniper]

Neimi, Dietch and a couple other big names have been making benchrest dies for a long time. I am pretty sure Dietch is second generation of making his dies. These are the dies mentioned in benchrest circles. Bullets made from their dies have won many shooting titles. Dietch is carbide dies cut with EDM. Material, quality and reputation seems to go with his name and therefor so is his price. It is one of those if you have to ask the price ........

As for the proof I know it is out there. These bullets win and are made on Redding or Rcbs reloading presses. Of course typically they are making 30 cal or less. Check out precision ballistics. http://precisionballisticsllc.com/process.aspx
This guy uses Dietch dies in Redding Big Boss presses. Makes some pretty good bullets. Maybe some day I can come close to that sort of presision dies but........... I'm impressed.

BT

[GerryM]

BT I can say that your on your way to makeing anything you would want to make in the area of dies.
I can see the quality right in the photos.
I have a set of Corbin dies that are far inferior to the ones you make. There are tool marks all over them. IF you decided to make Dies with Factory jackets and designed them with a small opening in the point and also made them in a * secant ogive I'm sure they would keep up with a few of the other famous brands of dies.
You have already developed or learned the technology.
The market your working in is a good one . I don't think the corbin boys have much more to offer.
I,ve read their web site There is a lot lacking.
I was about to contact them about dies to make jackets , until I received an Email with some comments that turned me off.
That 4 day work week is a turn off for me.

[Reload3006]

I own and like RCE RIchard Corbin gear. I cant comment on what others have but The gear that I have from Richard is first rate. Ditez and Niemi are far superior but I dont think necessary and if your looking to drop a couple thousand dollars on a set of dies they no doubt are the best. Dave Corbin is more of a sales man that Richard and from what I have found out I think Richard is a lot more honest. The problem with both the corbin brothers are they arent getting any younger and as far as I can tell when they are gone so is the business. I think BT makes great dies its obvious and so does a lot of others. I talked to Richard and asked him why he no longer offered reloading press dies. Basically the jest of it was hes the lone man in his company and he decided he cant do it all anymore. so he concentrates where its more profitable for him and in his opinion offers a better system I agree obviously I bought his gear. But there is another option out there and that is Larry Blackmon his gear is good too but the down side to Dr. Blackmons gear is its small and fragile. Dr Blackmon also makes or used to make reloading press dies too but he also offers a conversion kit for reloading presses and it works just like the old corbin mighty mite. Effective and makes good bullets. I certainly hope that all the players bring swaging back because I thourouglly enjoy rolling my own. To me its as satisfying as reloading shooting anything else in our sport I think its all quality gear and every one has their preference I dont knock anyones gear it will all get the job done and i think the quality of the projectiles is more of a function of the swager than the dies or die maker.

[Swageocast]

I am sure Richard Corbin is doing the right and necessary things he needs to do for himself and his business.

BUT his Reloading press swages & related tooling I AM SURE will be missed ! :-(

Merry Christmas to you all.

[Jammer Six]

Having owned an operated 3 different construction companies, even after swearing I'd never go back, I can say this.

I changed the way I did business many, many times, and I did so for many reasons.

I changed the way I did business, the materials I used, the area I'd operate in and the hours I'd operate:


Because I didn't like the salesclerk at a certain lumber yard.
Because a certain lumber yard would load with a forklift.
Because a certain lumber yard didn't own a forklift.
Because a certain supply yard had a dozen expert forklift operators.
Because the flow of traffic on I-5 in the afternoon favored our exit.
So I could make more money.
Because I didn't like a certain client.
Because I wanted to sleep in slightly.
So I could make more money. In theory.
Because a certain client had a smokin' hot wife.
Because I thought I could make more money.
Because I bought a new truck.
So I could quit earlier in the afternoon.
Because I raised my prices.
Because I lowered my prices.
So I could avoid union shops.
So I could avoid non-union shops.
So I could bid on public work.
So I could avoid public work.
So I could work as a sub.
So I could work only as a general.
Because a certain client was a stomp-down ******.
Because a certain client talked too much.
Because a certain client had a wife who never got dressed.
Because a certain client had bad breath.
Because a certain client smoked pot.
Because a certain client drank.
Because a certain client didn't drink.
Because I thought I could make more money.
Because I never wanted to work on another retaining wall.
So I could bid more retaining wall work.
Because Jxxx Sxxxxxxxx pissed me right off.
Because someone told me I'd never make it if I did so.
To prove I was right.
Because I wanted to.
Because I had a headache when I found out the results of a previous change.
Because I could.


The bottom line is quite simple.

None of you have any idea why Richard Corbin changed the way he does business, none of you have any idea why David Corbin changed the way he does business.

[Swageocast]

Gee that is quite a laundry list ,,,,ya know that would be a GREAT country song ,,,or perhaps sung to the 12 Day of christmas???

Cause I dident like the salescleark,,,,,,,,

Cause I bought new truck,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Cause he pissed me offff,,,,,,,,,,,,,

To prove I was Right,,,,,,,

Cause he had a Smokin,,,,, hot wiiiife !!!!!!!

Get it,,,,, like 12 Days of christmas. oh well.

And YOUR absolutly RIGHT WE REALLY DON"T KNOW why ,,he changed his methods,,,,OTHER than what Reload3006 mentioned!

BUT what WE DO KNOW,,,,, is HE DOESENT SELL reloading press swages ANYMORE!

:-)

[Jammer Six]

12 roofs with shingles
11 hardwood floors
10 dug out ditches
9 concrete driveways
8 waterproof basements
7 doors a swinging
6 brand new kitchens

FIVE JOBS THAT PAY!

4 sinks for bathrooms
3 walls retaining
2 sets of windows

AND BECAUSE HE HAD A SMOKIN' HOT WIFE!

[Swageocast]

YEP THere YOU GO ,,,Put it to Music ,,,,Slap it up on YOUTUBE ,,,,IT GOES VIRAL and befor you know it you can retire on royalties :-)

NICE use of coler,,,,,KUDOS.

Merry Christmas to YOU and Yours. ;-)

[GerryM]

Corbin Lets see it kind went like this It will cost you x dollars. Me Ok then how about?
I have the specs for J4 jackets it shows X is the runout at the base. Me OK Corbin But I don't think you can make as good a jacket as J4. Conclusion Hummm So you can make the dies but you are unwilling because. Possabilitys 1 you sell jackets 2 you pomised J4 not to make any dies for a new company 3 you are just tto lazy to make them. 4 you have no idea of what the operator can do. end of story

[Houndog]

Folks,
I own 10 sets of swage dies in both carbide and steel INCLUDING a set made by Corbin. I've been making Benchrest bullets around 20 years and can tell you when you MUST hold tolerances of .0003 or less to make bullets that WILL be competitive you find out REAL fast which dies and presses will get the job done! Someone in another post mentioned Bart's bullets (owned by Bart Sauter). I KNOW BarT personally and he uses RCBS presses modified by Neimi as well as their dies. Knights bullets, (owned by Brady Knight and is Bart's mentor) also uses the SAME presses as well as dies made by Neimi, Dietch and occasionally Ross Sherman. Allen Arnette uses presses modified by himself and has dies made by Neimi, Dietch and Roscach. Jef Fowler and Ed Watson ( the guys that taught me to make bullets) used RCBS presses and Roscach, Dietch and Pendell dies. ALL these bullet makers make, or did make in the case of ED and Jef, WORLD CLASS match winning bullets! You won't see Corbins, Blackmon or SAS equipment anywhere near these guy's shops. I AM NOT saying you can't make GOOD bullets on Corbins, Blackmon or SAS equipment, you certainly can, But when you MUST make the absolute very best bullets available they aren't in the runnung.

I don't expect anyone to take what I'm saying at face value! I will invite anyone making bullets to my home and let them make a few bullets on my modified RCBS press with Dietch, Neimi, or Sherman carbide dies so you can judge what i'm saying for yourself. The dies ARE that much better!

BT Sniper hasn't emailed me back about his wide meplat, lead to the tip bullets, but I think he's onto something! I think his heavy for jacket length bullet shows lots of promise. I also think he's doing excellent work on his press mods and what dies I've seen. I wouldn't hesitate to buy his equipment if i were looking at steel dies or starting out. In fact I think I would prefer his equipment over Corbin's (Richard or Dave) or C&H.

[Mountain Prepper]

Gentlemen...

Proof we need proof.

We have hashed over the steel v. carbide before.

Until I see actual documented (blind and unbiased) PROOF I will revert to the general consensus proposed by the few who have at least some actual testing.

The two reasons that continue to come to the top on this issue. This is taking into consideration: same caliber, same set of rifles, same bullet design, same quality components, same care in selecting the components.

The bullet design: ogive, base, meplat, shank, core, jacket.

The components and manufacture: core weight, core composition, jacket quality, jacket sorting and selection, jacket weight, care in manufacture, careful sorting and selection, pressure/timing/stroke, die adjustment.

I would say that we could take same design to design bullets in the same caliber using our own BT Sniper, Corbin, Blackmon, Niemi, and Detsch (and others) and conduct a blind unbiased testing using the same set of rifles and shooters...

We would find, I propose (as a working hypothesis) that with equal care in manufacture and equal quality components that there would be no significant (statistically) differences in performance in same design bullets. Unless there were some severe egregious die problems (say .309 v. .308 v. 307 variances) or significant bullet design differences (base and ogive).

Anyone care for documented unbiased witnessed blind testing? It will be the only way this will ever go from conjecture to fact, it remains mythology and marketing until that time.

I have stated before that the re-swaging of the bullet in the rifle’s barrel is more significant.

[Reload3006]

one other thing to consider is not everyone is out to make a bench rest bullet. I have a lot of friends that shoot benchrest. I used to be a member of the Bench rest rifle club in Warrengton, Mo. If that is your trip great I am happy for you. My motives were not competition shooting. My motives are I want to be able to have bullets when I want them the way I want them for what I want them for. With swage equipment I have all the above options. Do I expect to ever recover my tooling costs? Maybe but probably not. I am not shooting for trophy or money but when i down an elk or deer I dont think that hes going to be any more pissed if i dont hit my aim point by .050 of an inch. he will be just as dead. If I were shooting long range competition .050 could cost me a pay check. so I think that application is more important than the who. I still contend that unless the person making the bullet is doing his part the Niemi or deitch dies arent going to make any better bullet than any other.

[GerryM]

Your both correct toollsteel will make wondeful bullets but not better bullets then Carbide
With tool steel you need to use quite a bit more lube on the pointing opertion. This leaves very slight swage marks on the bullets. The marks have nothing to do with accuracy.
The B&A dies I have along with the Pindell dies are tool steel. Both make wonderful hollow points with a large open point suitable for hunting and Target shooting.
Yes also the Operator has a lot to do with quality of tthe finished bullets'
Proper technique is a must .

[BT Sniper]

Taking a break from opening presents here :) Merry Christmas.

This thread seems to have a lot of potential for valuable info and certainly some well informed opinions and facts from those that have used various dies. That being said I'm not sure what questions we are trying to answer anymore in this thread? I do enjoy the comments from those of you that have took the time to chime in on the dies you use, some very expensive. I enjoy the business opinions from those that have been there. So what can we conclude up to this point?

my thoughts based on what has been said and I could be all wrong ????

- most benchrest bullets are 30 cal or less which is easily made on good reloading presses with slight mods in design of the press

- who knows what, or why corbin decideds to sell, or not sell, obvioulsy it is his choice and most choices are made for business or personal reasons

- there are other die makers out there that make very good dies too

- dies come in all different shape, design and material

- the demands of the shooter varries from match to hunting to plinking

- die costs varry with the demands of the shooter and reputation of the die maker

- accuracy is? ............... ever changing? the results of many factors? a bit of magic? pure skill? pure luck? dependent on the shooting gods? ???????

- a good bullet is ? .......... See above definition of accuracy

How could one get a unbiased test from varrious bullets made from varrious dies???? Certainly couldn't do it all in the same gun? I think the only way to possibly measure the quailty of a paticular bullet made from a paticular die is measure the size of the group. I'm sure there has been plenty of records keep of such data in the many years of compition shooting out there. This is where the above mentioned names keep coming up which one would have to believe leads to verry good dies.

So back to the shooters needs and demands. Match? Hunting? Plinking?

When I set out to make and shoot my own bullets my first accuracy requirment was that the bullet exit the barrel in the same dirrection as it was pointing :) Then as I started to make more pistol bullets 2" @ 25 yrds was a good accuracy goal. Then I made my first 30 cal rifle bullets and would have been happy with minute of canalope accuracy with bullets made from scrap brass. Much to my supprise and shear delight, I was able to hold about 3/4 MOA with these bullets made in old SAS dies. So I went hunting with them and took a nice mule deer. Then I made my own set of 30 cal dies and again I would have been happy with under 2 MOA and was pleased to see again impressive results with consistant groups under 1MOA wich was good enough for all my hunting needs and certainly plinking needs. Then one morning I shot a .215 group with these bullets made from scrap brass which certainly boosted my confidence and made me think I was possible of making a very good set of dies.

I have not shot benchrest before but I can imagine the demands of such a sport is extreem. At the moment I am very happy to offer dies to cater to the hunting and plinking croud. Maybe some day my abilities will get better and groups get smaller but to make dies to such exacting tollerances that benchrest shooters demand........... well that is a heck of a acomplishment and my hat is off to the makers of such dies.


A bit of rambling on my part here but as I said I certainly enjoy everyone's coments on the various dies they are using and accuracy they are trying to achieve. I would like to see a thread on this sight that may be dedicated towards more advanced swage techniques geared toward getting the most accuracy out of our home made swaged bullets. Till then I say good shooting and Swage On!

BT

[BT Sniper]

BT Sniper hasn't emailed me back about his wide meplat, lead to the tip bullets, but I think he's onto something! I think his heavy for jacket length bullet shows lots of promise. I also think he's doing excellent work on his press mods and what dies I've seen. I wouldn't hesitate to buy his equipment if i were looking at steel dies or starting out. In fact I think I would prefer his equipment over Corbin's (Richard or Dave) or C&H.


Houndog,

Thanks for the compliments. Sorry if I missed getting back to you in an email. I certainly look forword to discusing potential bullet upgrades and accuracy designs. Send me another PM or Email reminder and we can discuss it further, or here on the open form as well.

Good shooting

BT

[Mountain Prepper]

That being said I'm not sure what questions we are trying to answer anymore in this thread?

Some could well use a new thread.


- accuracy is? ............... ever changing? the results of many factors? a bit of magic? pure skill? pure luck? dependent on the shooting gods? ???????

A good point - to start testing of a working hypothesis terms need set agreed upon definitions and set questions that need answers that can or will be answered by testing.

So the above is a very important question.


- a good bullet is ? .......... See above definition of accuracy

Same, but in my last post I was talking about the tools to make the bullet and the complete lack of answers that are based on anything other than marketing.

Honestly I don’t care what the answer is, (as you expand on later in this post, I have various tools that I feel are satisfactory for my uses) but I want an answer based on facts, not that same marketing.


How could one get a unbiased test from varrious bullets made from varrious dies????

The simple answer is similar design features - I would be willing to provide 100 well made bullets in .308 from an 8s VLD/ULD set of dies, weights from 100 to 200 grains with J-4 jackets - I prefer flat base for ranges within supersonic, but I have dies for rebated boat tail if needed.


Certainly couldn't do it all in the same gun?

Testing, real and true testing is an act of removing the variables so yes a set of rifles, ranges, shooters and loads will all have to be overlapping to produce results.


I think the only way to possibly measure the quailty of a paticular bullet made from a paticular die is measure the size of the group.

Yes, under various conditions with careful statistical analysis.


I'm sure there has been plenty of records keep of such data in the many years of compition shooting out there.

Too many variables, competition is not testing and testing is not a competition sadly that same competition only shows who is willing to spend the time to work up the best load for a particular bullet and develop the skills needed, it by its very nature would not give us the results that would answer the question - are carbide dies actually capable of making bullets that are more accurate in the same rifles (apples to apples) as steel dies?


This is where the above mentioned names keep coming up which one would have to believe leads to verry good dies.

Other variables could be in play, the very act of a shooter choosing to swage for improved accuracy itself could change enough to throw this off.


Then one morning I shot a .215 group with these bullets made from scrap brass which certainly boosted my confidence and made me think I was possible of making a very good set of dies.

And I believe you can, will and the access to your product may well produce some changes in the shooting world (big or small is to be seen).


I have not shot benchrest before but I can imagine the demands of such a sport is extreem.

They are technical, sadly there is also an inordinate amount of mythology and superstition the technical is productive the superstition is not.


At the moment I am very happy to offer dies to cater to the hunting and plinking croud. Maybe some day my abilities will get better and groups get smaller but to make dies to such exacting tollerances that benchrest shooters demand........... well that is a heck of a acomplishment and my hat is off to the makers of such dies.

I think you sell yourself short, I don’t thing that it will take all that long as you are well on your way now. I work in a very skill demanding field and I have learned a long time ago skill is its own master and only depends on an introductory learning curve.

[BT Sniper]

Well put MP.

A lot of potential this thread still has with severial potential additional side threads I think.

I got out of your reply a question that may have been the just of part of this thread. Is carbide dies better then steel?????? and can steel dies make as good of bullets as carbide dies? Welll now........ I don't know the exact answer having never used carbide. I read that carbide is easier to use do to reduced friction and that's about as much as I know about the difference. What I do know is that I am learning to make a better set of steel dies and I imagine it may be a LONG time before I own a set of carbide dies simply because of price at the moment.

Thanks for the confidence boost as well. Tell you the truth, I think a good set of steel dies all comes down to a good reamer. I'm getting better at making my own reamers now so hopefully I can expand a bit on my riffle caliber dies. It is a good time for sure. I think I even got your skill/master/learning curve refrence, I can certainly attest to a long learning curve.

Well as always, I say Good shooting and swage On. I look foward to hearing more about die designs, makes, and the strive for accuracy.

BT

[u.p. north]

It all comes down to the polishing in a set of dies and molds on ease of ejection and use. As far as getting a good finish with the reamer and so on , rigidity in the machine and setup come into play, and a few other factors. Also about a press, I think a solid press with less twist factor and a few other variable come into play. I think my press (the cast boolit press here I have been offering) is far superior to the competition due to the steps I take in machining all the pieces. I am not going to hijack this thread and make it about my u.p. north press or anything else. I am just going to say , you get what you pay for in buying dies,presses, and so on. Also I agree with most everybody has said on this post and most other posts here on this forum , if I don't I usually don't speak up cause most everyone has there opinion and can find fault in anything one says and does.And I am also looking forward to reading and hearing about what you all have to say on ,the different types of designs. As they say why reinvent the wheel, but I think improvements can be made on anything.
I have learned alot here and am looking forward to learning more.

[Mountain Prepper]

I got out of your reply a question that may have been the just of part of this thread. Is carbide dies better then steel?????? and can steel dies make as good of bullets as carbide dies? Welll now........ I don't know the exact answer having never used carbide. I read that carbide is easier to use do to reduced friction and that's about as much as I know about the difference.



If anyone has a set that will make an 8s VLD flatbase I bet we could rustle up two shooters willing to document and be unbiased.

I have a set of steel 8s VLD and I would be willing to make 100 bullets to be split amongst two shooters, if someone with a similar point design with a carbide set is willing to exchange 1/2 the components we are well on the way to eliminate some issues.

To work this issue 50 from each need to be point formed with the other set of dies - I can go into the details later.

I truly don not care what the results are, I simply want an answer that is based on facts.


I think I even got your skill/master/learning curve refrence

Every skill has talent that is born to that skill - Raphael, Leonardo Da Vinci, and Michelangelo were not trained to that level of skill they were born to it, I am convinced by the evidence and observation that this crosses over many skills from managing people to cooking.

[Utah Shooter]

I'm not sure what questions we are trying to answer anymore in this thread? BT

I was lost after 6-7 posts.

[Jammer Six]

I like the idea of impartial testing.

Here's what we need: we need at least two boolit makers, who can make the same boolit.

We need at least one shooter, who can load and shoot the boolit.

And we need one controller.

The controller will receive the boolits from the boolit makers, and label them. He will be the only one who knows which boolits were made by which maker.

He will then send them on to the shooter, who will load, shoot and evaluate the results without knowing who made which boolit. He will report his findings according to the labels put on the boolits by the controller.

By using a controller, three or more makers and two or more shooters could be used, and the whole process would be double blind.

The criteria for evaluation would then be open to discussion.

In my opinion, which has never been humble, a double blind test would go a long, long ways towards establishing the truth, and I vastly prefer that type of result, whatever it is, rather than the "I shot 1xxx with my Abcccc Dffff boolit, and so it's the best ever!" results we have so much of now.

The scientific method is a wonderful thing, and the more of it we use, the gooder life will be.

[Reload3006]

I dont mean to break anyones bubble but shooting is not going to determine the better die or the better bullet. especially if the bullet is what is being tested. that would introduce too many variables. if a bullet is manufactured correctly with the proper dimensions there is no reason on this earth it should not fly the same as any other bullet made with a different set of dies if it also has the same exact dimensions. If materials and dimensions are the same they will fly the same common sense and physics tell us that.

[DukeInFlorida]

There is no contest here. No winners. No losers. Just different makers of different die designs, which suit various styles and quality of shooting. Want benchrest quality bullets? There are dies for that. Want plinking bullets? There are dies for that.

What is an acceptable design to make the type of bullets that you want to make is a personal decision. Your budget, your level of expertise, and your shooting level influence those decisions.

Suffice it to say that there are lots of ways to form shootable projectiles.

[MIBULLETS]

No one has discussed the variable of the guns they will be shot out of. We all know that some guns like different bullets for some reason. The best bullet in the world may not shoot the best out of your gun, it should, but it doesn't always happen that way though.

I do think this test is a good thing though. It just won't provide absolute results though, it can only provide results that pertain to the guns doing the shooting. The more guns included the better the assumptions made from the test results will be.

My opinion is the same as one of the previous posts. If the bullets are physically identical, they should shoot identically. So one question and possible test could be to take measurements of the bullets before shooting them. Over all length, diameter of the bearing surface, pressure ring diameter, measurement from the base to ojive and ojive to point are some that come to mind. If they are not identical, you already have a variable that could lead to inconsistant results.

[Swageocast]

Nicely Worded :-)

[GerryM]

Here's some of things that will vary during the test and should be checked if one is made.
What type of ojive? Tanget or secant? How long is the bearing surface? what is the shape 7 , 8 9 10? The pressure ring and weight of each bullet. Seating depth come into play and should be worked out.
Thats the basic now comes into play the load and type of rifle shooting the bullets.
You should shoot groups 5 shots is a killer for a light barrel so at least a mediam barrel should do. The you have to take an average of the groups from each bullet 5 ,5shot groups should tell the accuarcy potential. then compare results. Its an all day shooting test best conducted in a tunnel with benchrests.

[mold maker]

Being simple of mind, and having desire, I have the third set of BT's dies. I've been able to make any weight, multi shape, top quality bullets from each with, RCBS RC Supreme, and LEE Classic Cast presses.
No one told me it couldn't be done, and the price of the first set of BT dies, made me take the plunge.
I had priced Corbin tools and dismissed the possibilites long ago. If Ric Corbin stops making dies I wont miss them. I also won't be placing long term orders, for his presses.
It's the old story about making a better mouse trap. BT did, and I beat the path to him.
At 70, this old dog indeed, learned new tricks.

[garym1a2]

If anyone is willing to send me a few hundred .223 bullets or more I am willing to conduct an objective test.
If anyone has a set that will make an 8s VLD flatbase I bet we could rustle up two shooters willing to document and be unbiased.

I have a set of steel 8s VLD and I would be willing to make 100 bullets to be split amongst two shooters, if someone with a similar point design with a carbide set is willing to exchange 1/2 the components we are well on the way to eliminate some issues.

To work this issue 50 from each need to be point formed with the other set of dies - I can go into the details later.

I truly don not care what the results are, I simply want an answer that is based on facts.



Every skill has talent that is born to that skill - Raphael, Leonardo Da Vinci, and Michelangelo were not trained to that level of skill they were born to it, I am convinced by the evidence and observation that this crosses over many skills from managing people to cooking.

[williamwaco]

Happy Holidays everyone,,,,

This is just something I ran across while surfing around ,,,,not my words but,, but from the horses mouth !!

>>>Reloading presses have been used to swage small caliber bullets almost since the invention of the loading press but such dies are not a very good way to make bullets. One problem with using a loading press is that the linkage, pins, and toggle of the press are too light for the task. The swaging dies usually don’t have any automatic ejection system so that a mallet must be used to knock the bullet out of the die. Attempting to swage rifle bullets much over .30 caliber or pistol bullets over .45 caliber puts far too much load on the press and can damage it. More importantly the typical loading press has a long stroke that greatly limits the amount of pressure the press can develop. This means that it is difficult to swage larger caliber bullets, especially in rifle calibers. The press also does not have a long enough “throat’ so that it is not possible to use special tooling in it. Bullets can be made using a reloading press but the process is tedious, tiring, and limits what can be done.

>>>RCE, LLC no longer makes any reloading press swages.

Just so youall were aware !!! Ho Ho Ho :-)


I have been swaging small caliber rife bullets, .243 and .30 since the late '60s.

I have been swaging all caliber handgun bullets since about the same time.

In my un-humble opinion, that is a load of disingenuous balderdash from someone who wants to sell swaging presses.

It takes more force ( measured by my calibrated right arm ) to full length resize a full size rifle cartridge fired with a hot load than to swage a rifle bullet or a .45 cal handgun bullet.

Tha mallet part is however a pita.




.

[DukeInFlorida]

Mallet??? I have one of BT Sniper's Ejection things, and haven't had to smack anything in ages.

[Swageocast]

I SMACKED my THUMB the other day with a MALLET and it looked like PASTA after I got done HOLLERING.

NOT a fan of MALLETS and DIES together. :-)




OH yea,,,AND Richard Corbin NO LONGER SELLS RELOADING SWAGE DIES ANYMORE !! HAPPY NEW YEAR ;-)

[williamwaco]

I SMACKED my THUMB the other day with a MALLET and it looked like PASTA after I got done HOLLERING.

NOT a fan of MALLETS and DIES together. :-)




OH yea,,,AND Richard Corbin NO LONGER SELLS RELOADING SWAGE DIES ANYMORE !! HAPPY NEW YEAR ;-)



Marinara - or meat sauce?



Happy and Prosperous New Year!


.

[Swageocast]

Oh Lotz of MEAT and Sauce,,,it even hurts to type ,,,keep tryin to spacebar with GIANT bandaged thumb yeo eeeee yeo.

[MightyThor]

Also about a press, I think a solid press with less twist factor and a few other variable come into play.

I would respectfully disagree. I have used a number of die sets on a wide variety of presses and find that the bullets from the dies do not vary to a significant degree depending on the press. That is not to say that some presses are not easier to set up and use with any particular die set, or that some presses should not be used, but my experience is that when the die is set up properly it does not seem to care what press it is in. Having said that, I would agree that a well built swage press is a joy to behold and use. Makes setup so much easier and faster, increases productivity by reducing fatigue etc and is a good investment for anyone serious about making their own bullets. I will also qualify my opinion as one not relevant to bullets larger than 30 cal. I have no experience with swaging bullets bigger than that.

[458win]

Yes this is my first post here so a little background information. I purchased a RCE Walnut hill back in 2006 along with 224, 375 and 416 dies.....and I just punched out my first complete bullet last Saturday on Xmas eve:D Talk about a long time to leave everything sitting in boxes!

I have not dealt with D. Corbin personally but I have with R. Corbin. I went to his shop to pick up the press and dies. All the people knocking him for not building reloading press dies anymore you should go visit his shop. He was up to his gills on orders for WH presses and dies. Didn't need the extra work to build dies for regular reloading presses.

Beautiful thing about America is its still in a somewhat free state. If you want Corbin products, are willing to pay and wait (there's plenty that are! Look at the lead times!) great. If not there are other options out there. Have never had a set of BT sniper dies in my hand but appears he saw a niche in the market and is filling it. (Does damn nice work to from the pictures I have seen)

Instead of complaining about a product no longer being offered, do the American thing and find a way to produce it better, faster and cheaper!:drinks:

[mainiac]

Bill Niemies bullet dies are used all over america by now,,benchrest crowd loves them.
He also used to build br qaulity barrells.I have a few of his barrells,and they are the best shooting 6mm barrells,i ever shot.
A shame he quit the barrell making business.....

[Mountain Prepper]

No one has a set of carbide dies with a point forming die that produces 8 to 9 s low drag design?

.308 dia. BTW