I guess the inspectors over at Smith and Wesson are sleeping on the job.

[Ole]

Stole this picture from another forum.

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh280/Ole1830/6or7shot686.jpg

Thought a few folks here might get a kick out of it. [smilie=1:

[Green Frog]

:???:OK, I'll bite. What am I supposed to be looking at/for? Is it that the cylinder flutes and chambers don't seem to line up? Is that an optical illusion?:???:

Froggie


Dope slap to forehead! :roll: Are there seven flutes and only 6 chambers? This must be a Custom Shop L-frame, huh?

[Ole]

:???:OK, I'll bite. What am I supposed to be looking at/for? Is it that the cylinder flutes and chambers don't seem to line up? Is that an optical illusion?:???:

Froggie

That cylinder has 7 flutes and only 6 chambers. :mrgreen:

[jandbn]

The first thing I noticed was the thin throat walls on a couple. Thought maybe everything was off center a little till I read 7 flutes.

[Love Life]

No surprise

[fecmech]

I was looking at a used Model 19 in a store a while back, the barrel was only rifled halfway so I'd say it's nothing new.

[EMC45]

Give me an old pre lock Smith any day!

[Hang Fire]

I was looking at a used Model 19 in a store a while back, the barrel was only rifled halfway so I'd say it's nothing new.

Sure it wasn't a polished leaded bore? (:>)

[OuchHot!]

Oh boy! I had no idea things had slid that far! That is nothing short of remarkable.

[Keyston44]

That even looks like a Performance Center gun. WOW.

Key

[50-170-700 sharps]

Hey, the owner should keep it, it's a collectors item! :kidding: But seriously, smith's quality control has seriously degraded from their earlier years unfortunately. I'm not saying that today's smith's are all plain BAD, but I haven't been too impressed with some of the newer one's that I have handled.

[bearcove]

Sure its not photo shopped? I couldn't imagine setting up a machine to do that without it being caught.

[Love Life]

Performance center means nothing. My PC wheelgun was a ***. Sorry, but S&W disappoint me.

[bearcove]

OK you dumb A$$ es did you not notice the cylinder is the only thing in focus.

[bearcove]

Jim I know you are a dumb a$$, because you are pipefitter and I ARE one too!

Rod

[9.3X62AL]

Perhaps a mite harsh, Bearcove.

With the quality lapses reported on the net and elsewhere concerning A LOT of gunmakers, such photos--fake or genuine--can get traction pretty easily. Yeah, they're pressing to meet market demand, but rather than cutting corners on quality......why not hire a few more people and put a few more lines in operation? Demand is not an excuse to ship slipshod products--it is a reason to invest in personnel, training, and physical plant.

Get right, or get left. I'm tired of the industry's lame excuses (Marlin, for example) and the drivel spouted about the problems by the gun press. It ain't rocket science--if the companies could turn out quality in the 1930s, they can do it now. They simply choose not to, and expect us to accept sub-standard products as state-of-the-art. Bullsquat.

[bearcove]

Yes a bit, but slamming a manufacturer based on a photo from an unknown source has an equal chance of making a fool of the critic. Even video is questionable now a days. And you will note I claim to be a member of the same foolish judgemental trade Jim retired from.

Happy Holidays, Rod

[waksupi]

You dumb asses quit calling each other dumb asses.

[bearcove]

Take a close look at the photo the Cylinder stands out. It has a different texture, the resolution is different, notice the fine scratch marks on the cyl. the rest of the gun is a nice satin. If you want to be a fool don't look close.

If you don't pay attention then you can ASSUME and make a *** of U an ME.

[bearcove]

You dumb asses quit calling each other dumb asses.

I resemble that remark!

[btroj]

Well stated Waksupi. Such name calling over a dang photo.

[velojym]

As to whether this was photoshopped, or maybe someone slipped up and bored a 7 shot cylinder for a 6 shot pistol, it's likely that an indoor shot like this was taken with a large aperture, whether on purpose or with the camera in an automatic mode.
Wider apertures result in a very shallow depth of field, and only objects in that plane will show up clearly. Everything else will be out of focus. It's a great effect for portraits and when you want the subject to pop without a lot of sharp clutter in the background.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled thread.

[Love Life]

Yes a bit, but slamming a manufacturer based on a photo from an unknown source has an equal chance of making a fool of the critic. Even video is questionable now a days. And you will note I claim to be a member of the same foolish judgemental trade Jim retired from.

Happy Holidays, Rod

I slam current S&W revolvers based off of a $900 plus PC revolver I bought that was a *** and gave up the ghost 7 months after I bought it brand new and fired a few thousand 38 special +P out of. Sent it back to S&W 3 times before my gunshop gave me a refund. I put that money into model 28s and never looked back.

[bearcove]

No the point is some are taking a questionable photo to question the quality of a company's product. Is that slander or libel, I'm not a lawyer. Maybe ya'll should remember we are trying to come out of a down time in our economy.

Everybody is so quick to criticize anything when they have no clue where the data came from. If I was an ANTI GUN activist I would have a blast posting negitive photos and news clips for you guys to feed on.

[Love Life]

The sad part is that it is not slander or libel. S&W is producing junk across the revolver spectrum, but they sure do put effort into making their Glock copies so they sell. It is a crying shame that a revolver they made 40-60 years ago is hands down better then the revolvers they make today.

People talk about the Bangor Punta days, but S&W revolvers are definately worse than those. I don't even look at modern revolvers made by S&W. If I buy a modern revolver it will be a ruger. I can list the things that were wrong with my PC gun. All the other modern S&W revolvers I have shot, held, or dry fired have been poop.

[9.3X62AL]

Bearcove, a more careful reading of my prior text would show that made no assessment of the photograph presented but that based on my own observations of current-production S&W revolvers and the expressed opinions of others of like mind--that S&W is indeed feeding us slop and claiming it's filet mignon. With said observations as a context, a photo like that shown by the initial poster gains currency and credibility.

I would add that hard economic times are no excuse for selling slop. Again, look at a 1930s S&W revolver--even in the depths of the Depression, standards were maintained quite well.

[KYCaster]

That's the best photo shop job I've ever seen.

S&W isn't the only company having problems. I've looked at several new Rugers recently.....absolute worst finish I've ever seen on SS revolvers. They may shoot OK and they may be strong as a bank vault, but I'd be ashamed to put my name on some of the stuff I've seen.

Jerry

[Love Life]

That's the best photo shop job I've ever seen.

S&W isn't the only company having problems. I've looked at several new Rugers recently.....absolute worst finish I've ever seen on SS revolvers. They may shoot OK and they may be strong as a bank vault, but I'd be ashamed to put my name on some of the stuff I've seen.

Jerry

I'd rather put my name on something that is mechanically sound and works as it should than a shiny (sort of) piece of junk that is over priced.

[Who's this Guy ?]

Pride in the workplace is gone. That's why companies turn out junk.

[GLL]

All of the S&W revolvers I buy seem ok ! :)

Jerry

http://www.fototime.com/D1C1E88A3D3343A/orig.jpg

[archmaker]

I am going to call that a photoshop, and the reason why is the Shadows. Look at the Shadow for the chambers I would say the light source was at 10 o'clock and in front of the gun, but there is a shadow on the yoke area that indicates a 4 o'clock and almost directly to the side.

Also there is no shadow from the extractor. (If the light source is at 10'oclock and in front).

Also notice the outside of the cylinder is lighted from the 2:30 position but that does not jive with the light source going into the chambers.

[Jim]

Very observant, Archmaker! :goodpost:

[Love Life]

Hey Jerry you found my gun!! I couldn't remember where I place it. If you'll just box it up and send it my way I'll take care of the shipping.

[btroj]

Odd shadows can be from multiple light sources or reflected light.

It may well be a phony photo as I have learned to trust very little I see online. Could be a person with an ax to grind.

Why not just call it a Remlin and get people all worked up!

I don't own it so I don't really care.

[9.3X62AL]

Good ol' Jerry and his Smith&WessonPorn!

As for the original photo......if it is a fraud, it's a lotta trouble to go to just to diss S&W. If fraudulent, such renderings are just as wrong as poorly-built/finished products.

[MtGun44]

So a 6 shooter cyl got put ioto the 7 shooter fluting line.

Not too cool, but I can see how that would get past an inspector.

Bill

[lathesmith]

The thing that would concern me the most about that pic, is that it's not just a cosmetic quality control issue, but a serious safety one. A couple of those cylinder walls look a mite thin, I'd hate to be holding that thing if a full throttle 357 was fired in one of those and it let go....

[MtGun44]

I would wonder if the wall thickness is an issue. If the thicness between cylinders is OK,
(which it has to be) I would think the outside wall thickness is greater, and therefore
be OK, too ---- but without the gun to examine, it is hard to tell.

Bill

[Heavy lead]

Well now whether or not this is valid is one thing, but did the person that bought this not bother to look at it at all before he took it home? If it is valid, it passed his quality control as well.

[44man]

I have seen a few problems with S&W guns, just like most other makes.
But this----Not hardly unless the machines are in Braille! :drinks:
I can't leave that go since someone suggested us old timers need braille scopes. :grin:
This is something we will never know the facts about, pictures today can be changed so easy. I wish I could do it, I would make me look younger and my deer bigger!
I have to look at this picture as something to laugh at.

[Japle]

Greetings,

The revolver under discussion is mine. As has been said, I took it out to test fire it and get it sighted in (no problems) and just finished an action job when I noticed something odd. I was double-checking the timing when I saw that the flutes seemed to be changing position in relation to the timing notches. Looking at the front of the cylinder ...... Well, you can see for yourselves.

To tell you the truth, when I first noticed the screw-up, I laughed. I thought it was funny. I don’t think it’s funny anymore. The more I think about it, the madder I get. I doubt I’ll be in a better mood when someone from S&W contacts me after the first of the year.

If I had fired some full-bore factory .357 loads instead of the fairly mild .38 Spl loads I used, I might very well have been injured. By now, lawyers would be involved.

S&W is closed till 1/2/12. I emailed them last week, but I guess they haven't gotten around to their in-box.

The final QC was signed off by "Brian C" on 12/2/2011. That was a Friday. I'm thinking this gun was good old Brian's last inspection of the week. Maybe he was more concerned about the hot date he had planned than he was about how many flutes there should be in an SSR cylinder!

[uncle joe]

we need a pipline welder to chime in here. He'll tell who the dumba$$e$ are. I know I work with some :-)

[pmer]

:popcorn:

And welcome japle

[44man]

Greetings,

The revolver under discussion is mine. As has been said, I took it out to test fire it and get it sighted in (no problems) and just finished an action job when I noticed something odd. I was double-checking the timing when I saw that the flutes seemed to be changing position in relation to the timing notches. Looking at the front of the cylinder ...... Well, you can see for yourselves.

To tell you the truth, when I first noticed the screw-up, I laughed. I thought it was funny. I don’t think it’s funny anymore. The more I think about it, the madder I get. I doubt I’ll be in a better mood when someone from S&W contacts me after the first of the year.

If I had fired some full-bore factory .357 loads instead of the fairly mild .38 Spl loads I used, I might very well have been injured. By now, lawyers would be involved.

S&W is closed till 1/2/12. I emailed them last week, but I guess they haven't gotten around to their in-box.

The final QC was signed off by "Brian C" on 12/2/2011. That was a Friday. I'm thinking this gun was good old Brian's last inspection of the week. Maybe he was more concerned about the hot date he had planned than he was about how many flutes there should be in an SSR cylinder!
OK, the real truth. Wonderful to find out. Makes me look at ugly Ruger's and BFR's a lot more. :mrgreen:
But a few think "pretty" shoots better. [smilie=1:
It is hard to believe it could happen but shows S&W has not been up to par and even the X frame has had problems. I still like most.
I was over my friends yesterday. He had a car accident, hydroplaned into a rock and rolled 4 times. He has a cracked spine and abrasions when his head and hand went out the window.
He is walking around and doing good.
I took my .500 JRH, BFR over to show him. He brought out his Freedom .454 and put side by side, he was amazed at how nice the BFR is. He could not tell the difference and he has the very earliest one.
Back to S&W. That gun would not have survived pressure testing. Are they testing?

[Japle]

44man,

The gun came with an envelope containing a single fired .357 case. I assume the gun was fired just once, and I assume the cartridge wasn't fired from the chamber that's missing 60% of it's wall thickness.

[jblee10]

The last S&W I bought (686) would cam past the full cock notch and hang up there. I considered it a dangerous condition and certainly didn't do anything for the trigger pull. I was disappointed with quality control. But I will say that customer service was good and fast. When it came back in a week it was like it had a trigger job and broke like glass.

[44man]

44man,

The gun came with an envelope containing a single fired .357 case. I assume the gun was fired just once, and I assume the cartridge wasn't fired from the chamber that's missing 60% of it's wall thickness.
That is scary. The most I can say is I am glad you have not been hurt. That thing could have let go.
I would holler very much and make S&W send you 2 guns or refund your money with a profit.
That one case is for some states that want a fired case so they can track crime. It is not a proof load. Every chamber should have a proof load.
I would never send the one case to the police, they have no right. I toss them. It is a liberal pile of junk. WV does not require it anyway. MD does but if I lived there ---good luck, the case will be long gone.

[Ole]

Greetings,

The revolver under discussion is mine. As has been said, I took it out to test fire it and get it sighted in (no problems) and just finished an action job when I noticed something odd. I was double-checking the timing when I saw that the flutes seemed to be changing position in relation to the timing notches. Looking at the front of the cylinder ...... Well, you can see for yourselves.



Welcome to the forum, Japle. :drinks:

I'm glad you weren't hurt and the picture that I stole wasn't a photochop. :mrgreen:

[jwp475]

I am going to call that a photoshop, and the reason why is the Shadows. Look at the Shadow for the chambers I would say the light source was at 10 o'clock and in front of the gun, but there is a shadow on the yoke area that indicates a 4 o'clock and almost directly to the side.

Also there is no shadow from the extractor. (If the light source is at 10'oclock and in front).

Also notice the outside of the cylinder is lighted from the 2:30 position but that does not jive with the light source going into the chambers.



Looks like your "detective" skills needs a bit of honing

[GP100man]

Another WELCOME to :cbpour: & Glad no injuries were incured !!!

Bout 10 yrs. ago my cuz bought a JM 625 & we dissambled it , there was a machining BOo-BOo we found inside the frame that only left .015 thick metal in a part of the frame .

I`da raised cane ,but he shrugged it off & never gave it a second thought !

[fecmech]

Minor hijack here but still on QC and testing.

Back to S&W. That gun would not have survived pressure testing. Are they testing?
I just bought a Browning 625 20 ga OU which is a $3K+ retail gun( I did not pay that). I took it out of the box and could not install the forearm on the action till I filed off some metal in the latch. The forearm had never been installed on the complete gun, only the barrels. Maybe they proof tested just the barrels in a fixture, maybe just on the action without the forearm but they did not assemble the gun completely and fire it. That I know for a fact! I wonder if in fact it was proofed.

[9.3X62AL]

Welcome aboard, Japle. Very glad to see that no injury occurred in your initial firing.

As stated by J. B. Lee, S&W will very likely make it right. One does wonder why there's always time to "do it over", but not enough time to "do it right". Maybe these days such questions aren't fashionable.......ah, well. Maybe S&W handguns need to be viewed in the light of late 70s and early 80s Chrysler products--their best attribute being their warrantee coverage.

[44man]

Welcome aboard, Japle. Very glad to see that no injury occurred in your initial firing.

As stated by J. B. Lee, S&W will very likely make it right. One does wonder why there's always time to "do it over", but not enough time to "do it right". Maybe these days such questions aren't fashionable.......ah, well. Maybe S&W handguns need to be viewed in the light of late 70s and early 80s Chrysler products--their best attribute being their warrantee coverage.
You are so right. What good is a warranty after injury? One should never, ever need a lawyer.
Do it right, never do over!

[GLynn41]

not just guns -- a lot of video games aareput out unfinished and thenthey are patched up to work

[44man]

not just guns -- a lot of video games aareput out unfinished and thenthey are patched up to work
VIDEO GAMES???? What are they? [smilie=1:

[oldscool]

I'd rattle some S&W bean counters chain quite a bit and demand more than just a replacement to get that out of sight.

[rbertalotto]

Wait a minute.......I'm confused.

A bunch of photographic forensic experts chime in to tell us we are "Dumb Asses", the shadows are "obviously" photo shopped, it's very clear this is a hoax, etc, etc, etc.....

But then the owner chimes in and verifies this is the real deal. And a slab sided barrel, performance center revolver at that!

So...is it real or what..........???:groner:

[Love Life]

I believed it was real the entire time. S&W has been pouring out junk recently. Except, of course, their plastic pistols to compete for the law enforcement market.

[Tazman1602]

NO NO NO YOU *******!!!

"Is it real...............or is it MEMOREX?"

:kidding:
:kidding:
:kidding:

Art


Wait a minute.......I'm confused.

A bunch of photographic forensic experts chime in to tell us we are "Dumb Asses", the shadows are "obviously" photo shopped, it's very clear this is a hoax, etc, etc, etc.....

But then the owner chimes in and verifies this is the real deal. And a slab sided barrel, performance center revolver at that!

So...is it real or what..........???:groner:

[Tazman1602]

............and Japle, WELCOME to the forum!!

Glad you weren't hurt, that just cannot be right, hope S&W does right by you.

Art


Greetings,

The revolver under discussion is mine. As has been said, I took it out to test fire it and get it sighted in (no problems) and just finished an action job when I noticed something odd. I was double-checking the timing when I saw that the flutes seemed to be changing position in relation to the timing notches. Looking at the front of the cylinder ...... Well, you can see for yourselves.

To tell you the truth, when I first noticed the screw-up, I laughed. I thought it was funny. I don’t think it’s funny anymore. The more I think about it, the madder I get. I doubt I’ll be in a better mood when someone from S&W contacts me after the first of the year.

If I had fired some full-bore factory .357 loads instead of the fairly mild .38 Spl loads I used, I might very well have been injured. By now, lawyers would be involved.

S&W is closed till 1/2/12. I emailed them last week, but I guess they haven't gotten around to their in-box.

The final QC was signed off by "Brian C" on 12/2/2011. That was a Friday. I'm thinking this gun was good old Brian's last inspection of the week. Maybe he was more concerned about the hot date he had planned than he was about how many flutes there should be in an SSR cylinder!

[9.3X62AL]

I proudly proclaim my status as an Official Site *******.

[Who's this Guy ?]

Japle, I hope S&W get's back to you fast. They should make this a priority if their smart. Actually it's lucky you ended up with it in a way. If that was sold to a gun ignorant person and they let some full power load go through it they may have spent Christmas and New Years in the hospital.

[Japle]

Back about 1974, I met a guy who was trying to duplicate Elmer Keith's .44 Maggie loads - 240 gr SWC over 22 gr of 2400. The problem was, he made a slight mistake and used Bullseye instead of 2400. The gun was a Super Blackhawk.

The wall of the top chamber blew out, blasted off the tops of the two adjacent chambers and split the cases, igniting the powder charges in those two rounds. The top strap peeled off from the front end and whizzed back, cutting a neat groove in the shooters scalp. The top strap was never found.

My 686 probably wouldn't have produced such dramatic results, but a buldged cylinder would be a distinct possibility if I fired .357 factory ammo in it.

I prefer not to take the chance.

[pmer]

For all the doubting Thomas types do I dare ask for another picture?

[Japle]

Here's another shot, taken at the same time as the other one. The angle is slightly different as is the focus.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y145/Japle/Guns/IMG_7873.jpg

[pmer]

Thanks, japle, for the second view of the revovler. I bet they'll take care of ya.

[gandydancer]

Well look what they have done with Thompson Center. and the custom shop.

[blackpowder man]

Welcome to the forum Japle. Speaking of T/C. S&W emailed me a return shipping label for my T/C with my address as the ship to address. 3 phone calls later and I still don't have a return shipping label. The gun has missed 2 hunting seasons because it has a major malfunction and I'm not betting on using it next year. I have been fortunate with my S&W revolvers as far as quality, but have only owned 2 with the lock on them.

[rbertalotto]

Yesterday while I was on duty as range officer, a member showed up with a brand new, 10 shot, S&W 617, 4".......As he was looking over the sights he noticed the barrel was crooked.

Further inspection shows the barrel to be cross threaded with a noticeable gap on the left side between the barrel shoulder and the frame.

The front sight is about a 1/16' to the right of the centerline of the receiver.......:veryconfu

[44man]

Yesterday while I was on duty as range officer, a member showed up with a brand new, 10 shot, S&W 617, 4".......As he was looking over the sights he noticed the barrel was crooked.

Further inspection shows the barrel to be cross threaded with a noticeable gap on the left side between the barrel shoulder and the frame.

The front sight is about a 1/16' to the right of the centerline of the receiver.......:veryconfu
That was common with Dan Wesson's for a while when owners changed. Not cross threaded but the frames were bored and threaded off center. I have seen many with the front sight over 1/4" off. No gap at the shrouds either, the frame fronts were crooked too. Cylinders were not faced off even and as you turned them, the gap would open and close.

[Japle]

Another pic or three ....

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y145/Japle/SW%20686%20SSR/Cylinder1.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y145/Japle/SW%20686%20SSR/Cylinder2.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y145/Japle/SW%20686%20SSR/Cylinder4.jpg

[44man]

Wow, not only the flutes but the cylinder stop notches almost into the chambers. :veryconfu

[felix]

I have a Marlin 94 cowboy that has its barrel off-center as well. It shoots OK, so I leave it alone. Just bad QC all the way around. Made in 2003 or thereabouts sold by Davidson as a special run. ... felix

[45r]

I think a lot of the problems are from treating people like they're dime a dozen and can be replaced at any time and that ruins a persons desire to to take pride in there work.Cost cutting has put everyone under unneeded stress to keep up with low cost labor in other countries.

[Finster101]

Aren't the new 686s 7 shot. I think the 7 flutes is correct but the boring is wrong. If you were to go around and bore between the flutes wall thickness would be correct.

[Japle]

Aren't the new 686s 7 shot. I think the 7 flutes is correct but the boring is wrong.

They make a seven-shot 686 (the 686 Plus), but this one is an SSR. It's supposed to be a six-shot revolver.

[Finster101]

They make a seven-shot 686 (the 686 Plus), but this one is an SSR. It's supposed to be a six-shot revolver.

Okay. Sorry, just thinking out loud.

[Frank]

45r:

I think a lot of the problems are from treating people like they're dime a dozen and can be replaced at any time and that ruins a persons desire to to take pride in there work.Cost cutting has put everyone under unneeded stress to keep up with low cost labor in other countries.
Don't teach them anything because they're going to be replaced by the new citizens. Only hire workers who are bilingual. In foreign countries the leaders make the profits while the people make .50 cents an hour. It's been that way tooooo long! :coffeecom

[9.3X62AL]

I think a lot of the problems are from treating people like they're dime a dozen and can be replaced at any time and that ruins a persons desire to to take pride in there work.Cost cutting has put everyone under unneeded stress to keep up with low cost labor in other countries.

Yessir--if ever a time for tariffs was clear and present, it's now. To hell with the "global economy"--USA and Canada first, Mexico get right--or get left.

[44man]

I understand having worked for a major airline for 42 years. Almost every worker was dedicated and did the job (A few slackers but they were hired under that gov't plan.)
We made money and workers were paid decent. Passengers were treated with respect, fed top notch, could carry all kinds of baggage and we went far out of our way to make sure every passenger had their baggage at destination.
Then the pilots union went crazy, started to remove profits and expansion. To keep in the game, workers were forced to part time with no benefits, then the rag heads and all that could not speak English were hired, good workers were displaced.
Carts of bags and mail were just hidden because they did not know what gate to take them so they cut them off out in the boonies. We lost mail contracts and freight contracts, lost the kitchens.
Management made millions on the coat tails of workers. Workers that worked hard meant zero.
The retirement was given to the PBGC and I lost $7248 a year.
No SS increase either. COL went to management and congress.
What we see with our guns is the end result of poor management that only wants money for themselves. Many good workers are gone, replaced with cheap labor that does not care or are treated so bad, they don't care.
The American way is gone, unions like the teachers union, etc and all the donations and support of liberals will put in the final nail.
I feel sorry for the real American worker and his revenge. It IS revenge because if the man worked hard, he still loses. He is a number only.
If Obama gets in again, we will have no guns anyway.
Sorry for the rant but I watched every second of it and see those that never worked a day to contribute walk off with our money. I stand in line at the store watching food stamps used for two carts, follow them to a new SUV and want to force them to work for a day, let alone a lifetime.
Do we blame the man on the line at S&W or the greedy board of directors and management?

[Russel Nash]

yeah, I saw the same pics posted (I am assuming by the same guy) over at the Brian Enos forums...pretty much an online home for USPSA and IDPA shooters.

we are a conscientous consumer bunch with regards to guns, we don't just shoot guns we wear them out.

Is Smith and Wesson now owned by the Cerebrus Group (aka the "Freedom Group")?

Seems the "Freedom Group" has this ability to buy up gun companies and has a knack for turning them into poo.

[Who's this Guy ?]

Japle, Your other photos show it real good. There isn't much there on a couple of those cylinders. Hope they make it right with you in the New Year.

[44man]

Japle, Your other photos show it real good. There isn't much there on a couple of those cylinders. Hope they make it right with you in the New Year.
They will make it right for sure but the problem is if they made it right first, guns would be cheaper. Every gun they need to fix will cost money and a loss of profit so prices go up. The most expensive guns might be because of too much warranty work.
Look at Freedom and the prices they sell for, is it warranty work?
It must cost Ruger a ton of money, look at price increases. They must do better because look at the S&W prices.
We need to look at ourselves too. Some will send a gun back for a loose screw or a pin that moved---ARE WE THAT STUPID???? That increases costs of new guns. I read where one guy sent back a gun because the grip screw got loose. HELLO, doesn't he own a screwdriver? That guy needs pink toilet paper! :groner:
Send a Lee mold back for a pin that dropped out---guess what, prices go up.

[machinisttx]

Pride in the workplace is gone. That's why companies turn out junk.

Pride in workmanship is gone. Then again, so are things like employee/company loyalty, or a minute amount of ethics on the part of corporations. No real point in giving a damn about turning out quality work since the company won't weigh that in when deciding who to lay off so the CEO and other bigwigs still get their bonuses.

[44man]

True but I have heard most of my working days from supervisors "my way or the highway." 99.9% of the time, they were wrong.
That ruins work ethics.
The trouble with guns is that someone can get hurt or DEAD.
Reminds me of my nephew that bought a new Ford long ago, the expensive sports model, I don't remember which. He got a half mile from the dealer and the whole transmission fell out. Not a single bolt in it. The line was going so fast, no human could keep up so bolts were left out. I bet the poor worker was fired.
Back then my brother in law worked at Chevy and if he had to go, a replacement had to take his place. Return from too long in the bathroom and you never got a replacement again.
He died young, riddled with all kinds of cancer. Did he get it at work?
Shooters are a powerful group but we don't want any gun maker to go away. All we need is for them to toe the line and never send out a bad gun. I don't know how to get S&W to get off the "operator error" hoax.

[Japle]

I do expect S&W will make this right and make me happy. Unlike companies like EAA, who refuse to even talk to customers half the time and blames them for bad guns the other half of the time, S&W seems to try to do what's right.

They aren't always successful. Evan Marshall tells a story about the time he sent a 3 1/2" M-27 in to have a 5" barrel installed. When he got the gun back, S&W had installed a blued barrel on a nickel-plated gun!

[mannyCA]

We can discuss whose fault it is, the employees or the BOD all we want, the trouble is they apparently don't care. But we can get their attention by not buying their products, that is one way they will care. Lets post this around to all the gunboard forums we can, get the attention out there and start boycotting their products. I am firm believer in speaking with our cash. Let them know if they don't want to change we will take our business elsewhere.
THAT will get our voices heard quicker than anything.
Keep this thread alive and bumped.

[44man]

We can discuss whose fault it is, the employees or the BOD all we want, the trouble is they apparently don't care. But we can get their attention by not buying their products, that is one way they will care. Lets post this around to all the gunboard forums we can, get the attention out there and start boycotting their products. I am firm believer in speaking with our cash. Let them know if they don't want to change we will take our business elsewhere.
THAT will get our voices heard quicker than anything.
Keep this thread alive and bumped.
I do agree and that worked long ago. I have reservations and maybe a million letters to management would be better.
I don't know to tell the truth because when a company is hurting, they file chapter such and such, lay off good people and the big shots run off with millions.
I am crazy and if I owned a company, my workers would be like family, share in every change, share profits except those needed to expand and hire more. I would not need much more to live on then my best workers.
I would want the ability to fire a loss without some union saying no. I would forgive small infractions as long as the man was a good worker. It must be personal, no man should be a number.
I would not want someone sitting down all day expecting food stamps.
We should never lose any company. the big guy and board of directors must change. I have to wonder if going public and selling stock to have others control your business is the downfall.

[S.R.Custom]

I wouldn't have S&W fix it. List it on GunBroker instead-- a collector will give big money for that. (And get a signed release from the buyer acknowledging the defect and the associated risk of shooting it.)

I've got a buddy who had a Ruger 10/22 that made it out of the factory with a barrel that had no rifling. He kept it for a number of years, but eventually sold it to a collector who made a generous offer.

[Japle]

I wouldn't have S&W fix it. List it on GunBroker instead-- a collector will give big money for that

Tell you what; I'll sell it to you right now for $1,200. You pay for shiopping.

[S.R.Custom]

Sent you a PM.

[Suo Gan]

I have a Marlin 94 cowboy that has its barrel off-center as well. It shoots OK, so I leave it alone. Just bad QC all the way around. Made in 2003 or thereabouts sold by Davidson as a special run. ... felix

I think you are mistaken, I think you meant 2009? 2003 was Marlin before Remington and we all know how perfect Marlin was before Remington ;-). So you must be mistaken.

I have read on the Marlin site about a 336 that was seen in the gun store without rifling!! Come to find out it was one of the their uncommon 410 models. BUT, the skuttlebutt was really flying about that rifle and how the QC had slipped in the trash.

Truth be told? In any of these mass produced guns there have always been flub ups. Its just that there has not always been an internet and digital cameras.

I used to think little gray haired men built M1A's and in the 90's I met a former SA employee and he said he turned those suckers out as fast as he could because his job depended on it!

This type of thing is nothing new.

Bearcove had a sound warning, and it was that you should not believe everything you hear or even see on the internet. There is nothing wrong with that advice.

[Japle]

UPDATE 1/3/2012

This morning, I talked to Jon Young at S&W Customer Service. He’s talked to the other CS and production guys and no one has seen a gun like this that made it out of the plant. They’ve seen cylinders like this in the scrap bins, but not on guns that were shipped.

He says there’s no problem if I keep the cylinder. Also no problem with anyone messing with the action. I just have to include a note stating the problem (I’ll include a few photos) and ask that they just replace the cylinder.

He says I can ask for a non-fluted cylinder, but he can’t guarantee I’ll get one. There might be an extra charge. I pointed out that it wouldn’t be any more expensive to install a non-fluted cylinder on purpose than to install a 7-fluted cylinder by mistake. The non-fluted cylinders come from the Performance Center, though, so he doesn’t know how that’ll work.

S&W is very aware of the fact that my gun is the subject of threads on at least 12 different firearms forums. They know I’m going to report on what happens.

Jon said he’ll have a shipping label emailed to me. I’ll remove the cylinder and sent the gun in.

Wish me luck!

[9.3X62AL]

This sounds positive, so far. Best of luck with the rest of the process, Japle!

[lbaize3]

I have long been a fan of S&W and own a good number of their firearms. Having worked in several gun shops over the years I have seen other such errors, but none of the magnitude shown here. I will be watching this thread with great interest to see how S&W resolves this problem. And I sure would be interested in how they will prevent it from happening again.

[Japle]

Posted on S&W’s Facebook page:
Thank you giving us the chance to make this right for you.

My response:
Despite some of the comments I read on firearms forums, I never had any doubts about the quality of your guns or your service. All my wheelguns are by S&W and I expect that won't change. Thanks!!

[GL49]

Japle,
Thanks for post #96.

[M4bushy]

I have long been a fan of S&W and own a good number of their firearms. Having worked in several gun shops over the years I have seen other such errors, but none of the magnitude shown here. I will be watching this thread with great interest to see how S&W resolves this problem. And I sure would be interested in how they will prevent it from happening again.

Maybe they could stop making the foolish .327 federal 7 shot cylinder.....;-)

[Alan]

<Pops the stink-eye over the .327 comment>

[Japle]

Update – 20 January:

Well, as of today, S&W has had my gun for two weeks. Considering the fact that it’s the subject of distinctly unflattering threads on 15 different firearms forums and S&W’s Facebook page, I thought I might get a little quicker action.

Guess not. I haven’t heard a word.

[shtur]

Wow, even outsourced work across the sea gets completed sooner than that.

[Japle]

UPDATE: 1/25/12

I got a call from Jon Young at S&W Customer Service. He says getting an unfluted cylinder installed won’t be a problem, BUT:

1. When he told me on 1/3 that I could keep the screwed-up cylinder, that wasn’t true. They want it back. He’s sending me a return shipping label.

2. When he told me on 1/3 that nobody would change anything inside the gun, that all I had to do was specify in my letter that I wanted the action job left alone, that this was routine and wouldn’t be any problem, that wasn’t true. They’re going to replace the Bang, Inc springs and the C&S extended firing pin. The parts will be returned to me and I’ll have to install them again.

Jon claimed he thought what he told me was true, but when I questioned him, it turns out he claimed he didn’t know and was just guessing. He actually had no damn idea if what he was telling me was the truth. I strongly suspect he was just making it all up as he went along, telling me what he thought I wanted to hear. To say I’m displease at having smoke blown up my rear end on two separate issues by a guy who’s representing S&W is a titanic understatement.

He’s walking the gun back to the repair section. He says they expect to ship my gun tomorrow.

Right now I’m seriously POed. Up until now, this was a case of carelessness and failure of Quality Control in the manufacturing process. Now I’ve been lied to. Flat-out lied to.

I am not happy.

[Who's this Guy ?]

Japle, They along with all these corporate top-heavy companies these days don't know how to take care of their employees let alone their (you) customers. Smith and Wesson has a great big FAIL! across their name. You have a right to be POed, I would be in your situation.

[Whitworth]

Japle -- check your PMs.

[Japle]

UPDATE: 1/26 @ 10:07AM:

Jon just called from S&W CS. They’ll install the unfluted cylinder (he said they have it ready to install right now) and they’ll leave my action job alone.

So we have some progress.

[rugerdude]

Sounds like someone at S&W is following your threads in the forums!

Personally, I think I will stick with S&W's older products. They seem to be a bit more consistant than the newer stuff.....

[Japle]

Sounds like someone at S&W is following your threads in the forums!


Oh, yeah. You can count on that!

[Who's this Guy ?]

They should follow the threads when something like this happens, that shows that they actually care. And they need to treat everything that comes out of their factory incorrect as an embaressment, not like "so what we made a mistake and will fix it at our liesure." You could have been seriously injured with their product! Good luck to you Sir and hope to see what the finished results are.

[MtGun44]

I am not at all surprised if a gun company has a policy to pull out any non standard
non-factory parts and put in factory parts. I would assume that if they return it with
modified parts in place, some knucklehead somewhere will take that as "proof" that S&W has
approved of the modifications. They do NOT want to get into that. They understand
what liability they are into with THEIR parts and are not interested in accepting any
liability for anybody else's parts.

In our extremely litigious society, I am not even slightly surprised by this. I imagine that
if I were making the decisions there, I would make the same decision, knowing how
capricious some courts and jurors are.

Bill

[Japle]

I am not at all surprised if a gun company has a policy to pull out any non standard non-factory parts and put in factory parts. I would assume that if they return it with modified parts in place, some knucklehead somewhere will take that as "proof" that S&W has approved of the modifications. They do NOT want to get into that. They understand what liability they are into with THEIR parts and are not interested in accepting any liability for anybody else's parts.

In our extremely litigious society, I am not even slightly surprised by this. I imagine that if I were making the decisions there, I would make the same decision, knowing how capricious some courts and jurors are.

I agree. I was suprised when the CS guy told me the aftermarket parts would be left in the gun. I fully expected him to ask me to remove them before I sent the gun in. He didn't do that. When he told me the action job would be left alone, I told him I would assume he had the authority to tell me that and I would take him at his word.

[Japle]

UPDATE - 1/30/12:

Got a call today from Paul Pluff, Director of Marketing Services at S&W. We had a long conversation about S&W’s inspection, QC and testing. According to him, they fire 40,000 psi proof loads through their .357 Magnum revolvers. The fact that this cylinder, even with 40% of its wall thickness missing on one chamber, passed the proof test is pretty damned impressive.

We discussed the liability problems S&W faces if this cylinder is left in the hands of someone they can’t control. I told him I completely understand their position. I have the FedEx shipping label they emailed to me and I’ll ship the cylinder back tomorrow. I hate to part with it, but I have to respect S&W’s position.

Darn!!

We discussed several other issues which I don’t need to go into. The bottom line is, S&W is aware of the severity of their mistake. They intend to make it right, and then some.

[MtGun44]

I can see why they do NOT want a problematic cylinder floating around, possibly
causing some problem some time in the future.

If they fired a full cyl of proof loads, then it must be pretty safe, actually.

Bill

[gunfan]

It was well done. If it wasn't, it would scare the hell out of me! By all that's Holy, it just isn't right!

Scott

[Who's this Guy ?]

UPDATE - 1/30/12:

Got a call today from Paul Pluff, Director of Marketing Services at S&W. We had a long conversation about S&W’s inspection, QC and testing. According to him, they fire 40,000 psi proof loads through their .357 Magnum revolvers. The fact that this cylinder, even with 40% of its wall thickness missing on one chamber, passed the proof test is pretty damned impressive.

We discussed the liability problems S&W faces if this cylinder is left in the hands of someone they can’t control. I told him I completely understand their position. I have the FedEx shipping label they emailed to me and I’ll ship the cylinder back tomorrow. I hate to part with it, but I have to respect S&W’s position.

Darn!!

We discussed several other issues which I don’t need to go into. The bottom line is, S&W is aware of the severity of their mistake. They intend to make it right, and then some.
Great to hear they are making things right!

[Japle]

It's funny people sometimes think my pic are Photoshopped.

If you check my posts on S&W's Facebook page and their responses, it's pretty obvious they're sure my pics are real!

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y145/Japle/Guns/CylinderandQC.jpg

[gunfan]

I wouldn't believe it if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes! :!::confused::dung_hits_fan:

Scott

[rugerdude]

I wouldn't believe it if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes! :!::confused::dung_hits_fan:

Scott

I would.

With today's high-tech, all-automated, make-em-NOW, style of manufacturing, its a wonder we don't see more of this kind of stuff.[smilie=b:

[MtGun44]

Somebody put a 6 hole partially finished cyl into the 7 hole box and it went on from
there to get the flutes cut, or vice versa. Probably automated.

My bet is that this particular anomoly will get some extra scrutiny in the
future by the inspectors.

Bill

[Japle]

UPDATE 2/3/2012:

The FedEx guy showed up today with my 686. As they promised they would, S&W installed an unfluted cylinder and didn’t mess with my action work.

It looks pretty good, don’t you think?

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y145/Japle/Guns/Newcylinderopensmall.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y145/Japle/Guns/Newcylinderlsidesmall.jpg

[JayinAZ]

Super! Now it's time to shoot it :)

[EMC45]

Shoot it till it turns black with soot!

[357Ruger]

UPDATE 2/3/2012:

The FedEx guy showed up today with my 686. As they promised they would, S&W installed an unfluted cylinder and didn’t mess with my action work.

It looks pretty good, don’t you think?

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y145/Japle/Guns/Newcylinderopensmall.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y145/Japle/Guns/Newcylinderlsidesmall.jpg

Hope it shoots well for you. Too bad they wouldn't remove the stupid internal lock from their guns. I have a bunch of Smith's but that lock keeps me from buying plenty more. When all of us old guys have passed on maybe the new fellas won't care.

[rintinglen]

I have to disagree.

It looks awful, in fact, so bad that you should send it to me just to get it out of your sight.

[Ola]

Actually, in the end, I think you are very lucky. With this much publicity S&W probably has taken the time to make this revolver like they all should be made. What is your opinion about the quality (now versus earlier)? Timing? Flash gap? Tolerances?

I'm very interested because almost every new S&W revolver that I've seen in resent years have had something wrong with them. About 1/ 10 have been acceptable straight from the box. I used to think that S&W is shipping all the low quality guns over seas because it's much more difficult to send them back to the factory. According to this thread it is NOT so, the S&W revolvers are the same everywhere. And that is very sad.

[Japle]

Posted by Ola:
What is your opinion about the quality (now versus earlier)? Timing? Flash gap? Tolerances?

My only "older" S&W wheelgun is a M29 from the late '80s. It's no better or worse than the more modern guns. Tolerances on the new guns have to be better due to the more modern manufacturing methods.

I have no problem with the lock. I never use it or pay any attention to it. It doesn't hurt anything.

One thing I like about the newer guns is the frame-mounted firing pin. I can get a much lighter DA pull on a gun like that than I can on one with the FP mounted on the hammer, because I can install an extended FP in the frame. I know you can grind off the hammer nose and (often) reshape the FP in the hammer to get the same result, but I've never done it.

I used to think that S&W is shipping all the low quality guns over seas because it's much more difficult to send them back to the factory. According to this thread it is NOT so, the S&W revolvers are the same everywhere.
Some folks have used this thread and others on different forums to bash S&W. I don't agree with them. I suspect the percentage of guns coming from S&W with serious problems is very small. You hear about the bad ones, without a doubt. I originally posted this "feature" on a few forums and it spread. Shooters started threads on other forums and posted my photos. Somebody told me the total number of "hits" is approaching 50,000 on the 15 threads I know about.

One serious screw-up (and I think it was pretty serious) has generated a significant amount of negative publicity for S&W. That doesn't mean they make bad guns. Right now, I'm trying to talk myself into buying a 627 V-Comp. I sure don't need it. I have a 327PC that's the same size, shoots the same round and is much lighter. If I do buy the V-Comp, I won't have any real concern about the quality.

I will be sure to count the flutes, though!!

[rugerdude]

I love the look of the unfluted cylinder!

Personally, all my wheelguns (with the exception of any Colt or USFA SAAs) would have unfluted cylinders if I had my way.

Gotta agree with Japle about bashing S&W. From my many years experience in retail, I can tell you now that you hardly ever hear the good reports, but I can gaurantee you everybody is gonna hear the bad ones.

[Ola]

Oh, did not mean to bash S&W. Just told you what I've seen.

I did NOT mean that 9/10 of those "unacceptable" S&W revolvers have been totally bad. Most have been in "factory specs".. Ok ok, I know it's unrealistic to expect top quality for that kind of price in year 2012.

[MtGun44]

Nice looking gun. It sounds like S&W made the kind of mistake that all manufacturers
try to avoid, but that can happen, but in the end, they did the right thing and gave you
a gun that should last a very long time, and is now a bit of a unique conversation piece.

Some S&W collector 75 yrs from now will be really scratching his head on the existence
of a clearly factory made unfluted 686 - when EVERYBODY KNOWS they never made such
a thing.

Bill

[Japle]

Some S&W collector 75 yrs from now will be really scratching his head on the existence of a clearly factory made unfluted 686 - when EVERYBODY KNOWS they never made such a thing.

You can have one if you want it. The unfluted cylinder is a special order from the Performance Center.

I like the look, but I'm not fooling myself about using it in competition. I have a 327PC for steel shooting and I'm convinced the titanium cylinder and barrel shroud help with faster split times and speed between targets.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y145/Japle/Guns/327PCwithammo.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y145/Japle/Guns/ISR2ndPlace.jpg

[Russel Nash]

^^^are you shooting .38 Special brass ?

maybe it is just an optical illusion, but the brass looks awefully short.

[MtGun44]

OK, I was only thinking of production guns, but didn't really specify. A friend does
that too, super short brass. It speeds up reloads by keeping the boolit ends from flopping out too far
and binding up in a speed reload. He uses something old that is shorter than normal,
but I think it is in .44 cal, not .357 cal.

Bill

[Russel Nash]

some guys are using .38 Short Colt brass say like for ICORE matches or for USPSA matches.

[Japle]

Yeah, it's .38 Short Colt. The cartridge is more efficient than .38 Spl or .357 Mag. I use Berry's 125 HP over 3.6 of TiteGroup and get 774 fps with a SD of 9 in my 327PC.

Another advantage is that I can use the same dies in my Dillon for 9mm and .38SC. I just swap the sizing die and use the same expander, seater and taper crimp dies.