Hornady 45-70 brass solution

[n4qwf]

I have read much about the Hornady brass problem of late. I purchased 50 rounds of this brass not knowing it was shorter than standard. My Lee dies would not neck expand the brass nor crimp bullets properly. After much study and reading I decided to try my RCBS 450 Marlin dies. After readjusting the dies they worked just fine. I wonder if the regular RCBS 45-70 dies would work with this brass as well? Could it be just a LEE die problem? Anyone used the RCBS 45-70 dies with this brass?

[lbaize3]

I picked up a box of the Hornady brass at the range and sized and cleaned the brass. When I was trimming my brass I snapped on the fact that the Hornady was shorter, but thought some reloader had shortened the brass to feed in a lever action.... I ended up putting the processed brass away for now. I have plenty of the commercial and military 45-70 brass and don't need to worry with short brass right now. However, If I ever get another lever gun in 45-70 I will probably use a 45 Colt belling and crimping die to load the Hornady brass. That way I can stuff a 500 grain boolit into my rifle.

['74 sharps]

Have loaded 4000 rounds this year of Starline 45-70 and have never had a issue with this brass.

[flashhole]

Glad you found a work-around but the solution is - don't buy Hornady brass. The SAMMI standards are in place for a reason and user and gun manufacturers expectations are set in reference to those standards. My opinion is Hornady just uses their short case as a marketing ploy for their rubber nose bullets.

[Rafsob]

These cases are short for a reason. If want to load the flex tip bullet in your lever gun, you need the shorter cases. Hornady made these cases so you don't have to spend hours cutting down regular cases!!! You don't load for a lever gun, use standard cases. How hard is that???

[flashhole]

Not hard at all but look at all the threads of guys complaining about not being able to use Hornady brass for conventional 45-70 bullets.

The common theme has been - If I'd known this ahead of time I would have bought some other ammo. Now I can't use this brass unless I load Hornady specialty bullets.

Just one man's opinion. If you like being locked into one specific bullet - go for it.

[Rafsob]

Hey Flashhole, I understand your thought. But I am sure the package is clearly marked that these cases are bullet/levergun specific. A lot of times folks just see .45-70 and grab and run. Ya gotta be more careful. Those cases are running .010 smaller then the regular cases.

Now if I am wrong and Hornady did not clearly mark the package that these cases were for Leverlution bullets only, shame on them.

Personally, I didn't know Hornady had these cases. If I did I would not have spent so much time and effort cutting down my cases. I have a stock of 100 and will pick up a pack of these cases to add to my stock.

[303carbine]

The short Hornady 45-70 brass is perfect to make into 45-60.

[EDG]

The 45-70 was designed for single shot rifles.
If Marlin had done a better job of adapting their lever gun to it they would have made the rifle longer. Instead they took a short cut. Now Hornady is taking a short cut to use those pointy little bullets.


Hey Flashhole, I understand your thought. But I am sure the package is clearly marked that these cases are bullet/levergun specific. A lot of times folks just see .45-70 and grab and run. Ya gotta be more careful. Those cases are running .010 smaller then the regular cases.

Now if I am wrong and Hornady did not clearly mark the package that these cases were for Leverlution bullets only, shame on them.

Personally, I didn't know Hornady had these cases. If I did I would not have spent so much time and effort cutting down my cases. I have a stock of 100 and will pick up a pack of these cases to add to my stock.

[flashhole]

EDG - Your assertion doesn't make sense to me. My Marlin model 1895 is chambered in 45-70 and functions flawlessly, no need to be any longer than it is. It headspaces on the rim at the base of the cartridge. What short cut do you claim they made? It's a lever gun with a tubular magazine so lead and jacketed bullets have to be flat on top for safety. The Hornady solution uses a "soft" pointed tip that won't strike the primer. They claim a higher BC for their bullet but shortening the case had nothing to do with a Marlin firearm design. 45-70 bullets are designed with a crimp groove for a standard SAMMI case. I think it was a simple Hornady marketing trap for the user. Use my brass, buy my bullets.

[725]

I don't like the Hornady cases but have used them. I just hang the boolit out a little.

[blikseme300]

Hornady head-stamped range brass in 444 and 45-70 could be standard length or LeveRevolution length. The new un-primed brass is standard length. Care must be taken as it is so easy to mess up the longer brass if it slips into the batch of shorter ones. I have a number of scrunched cases to remind me of this!

Setting up reloading dies with these shorter cases can be interesting but can be done. I seat boolits further out of the shorter cases to just touch the rifling and all is well. Accuracy is the same and all I need to take care of is to not mix the 2 lengths.

I don't care much for the fancy new bullets that Hornady offer for the big bore rifles but do like these in my 308MX.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

The use of the short, non-standard brass in the 45/70 and some other calibers in which Hornady loads the gummy nose/burger on the hoof bullet was a VERY stupid move by what is normally a good company.

And yes, considering the price I see on gummy nose ammo, it is a move by Hornady to increase market share.

Hornady is a much better company then this stupid move suggests and should have spent more time on the drawing board.

The extremely light for caliber homogeneous bullet they also came out with, while it may not have the devastating results of the gummy nose, is so light it will shed velocity and energy like water off a ducks back.

By the way, the Hornady 45/70 dies set will load the hooky brass with just an adjustment.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[EDG]

You need to read the history of the 45-70. It was originally designed for a single shot rifle using 405 grain bullets with round noses. Then they developed the 500 grain load. Your Marlin will not work with the 45-70 loaded with 500 grain bullets. The Marlin action is too short for the full length 500 grain loads.




EDG - Your assertion doesn't make sense to me. My Marlin model 1895 is chambered in 45-70 and functions flawlessly, no need to be any longer than it is. It headspaces on the rim at the base of the cartridge. What short cut do you claim they made? It's a lever gun with a tubular magazine so lead and jacketed bullets have to be flat on top for safety. The Hornady solution uses a "soft" pointed tip that won't strike the primer. They claim a higher BC for their bullet but shortening the case had nothing to do with a Marlin firearm design. 45-70 bullets are designed with a crimp groove for a standard SAMMI case. I think it was a simple Hornady marketing trap for the user. Use my brass, buy my bullets.

[flashhole]

I have 500 grain bullets loaded for my Guide Gun. They work fine but are not fun to shoot. I load them over 40 grains of Reloader #7. Quite punishing, I can tell what teeth in my mouth have fillings in them when I shoot them.

Here's a link to a write up I did some time ago. You can see the 500 grain bullets in a couple of the pics.

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/49

[r1kk1]

I have 500 grain bullets loaded for my Guide Gun. They work fine but are not fun to shoot. I load them over 40 grains of Reloader #7. Quite punishing, I can tell what teeth in my mouth have fillings in them when I shoot them.

Here's a link to a write up I did some time ago. You can see the 500 grain bullets in a couple of the pics.

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/49

I enjoy your writings. Didn't even know you were on this forum! I like my Ultramag too and use LNL bushings in it also.

Take care

r1kk1

[Rafsob]

EDG - Your assertion doesn't make sense to me. My Marlin model 1895 is chambered in 45-70 and functions flawlessly, no need to be any longer than it is. It headspaces on the rim at the base of the cartridge. What short cut do you claim they made? It's a lever gun with a tubular magazine so lead and jacketed bullets have to be flat on top for safety. The Hornady solution uses a "soft" pointed tip that won't strike the primer. They claim a higher BC for their bullet but shortening the case had nothing to do with a Marlin firearm design. 45-70 bullets are designed with a crimp groove for a standard SAMMI case. I think it was a simple Hornady marketing trap for the user. Use my brass, buy my bullets.

After reading your response it is evident that you have not tried to load a Hornady Leverlution cartridge in your Marlin. The COL is too long to cycle and load into the action. Because of the soft point being too long the round will not clear the lift gate from the tube magazine. They are about .010 too long. And because the bullet has a cannilure, you really can't seat the bullet any lower into the shell. so you have to cut down your brass or order the shorter brass from Hornady!!!

[flashhole]

No, you are correct, I have not tried to load a Leverevolution cartridge into my Marlin. The entire concept of a rubber tipped bullet never appealed to me. I assume you are talking about Hornady factory supplied ammo when you say the COL is too long. Seems odd that factory ammo would not cycle through the Marlin coming straight from Hornady. I thought that was why they shortened the case, so it could be used in modern lever guns.

I can understand having the clearing problem if you were trying to reload long Leverevolution bullets in conventional brass and using the crimp groove on the bullet.

[princeout]

Your Marlin will not work with the 45-70 loaded with 500 grain bullets. The Marlin action is too short for the full length 500 grain loads.

My Guide Gun seems to function flawlessly with 550 gr Crater's, using full length Starline 45-70 brass.

Tim

[EDG]

You are not using the original government 500 grain bullet.
I am sure you can find a way to cram a 700 grain flat nose bullet into a 45-70 case. But it is not the original configuration of the 45-70 500 grain load.


My Guide Gun seems to function flawlessly with 550 gr Crater's, using full length Starline 45-70 brass.

Tim

[princeout]

You are not using the original government 500 grain bullet.
I am sure you can find a way to cram a 700 grain flat nose bullet into a 45-70 case. But it is not the original configuration of the 45-70 500 grain load.

EDG - What's the COL on the "original" configuration?
Tim

[Rafsob]

I assume you are talking about Hornady factory supplied ammo when you say the COL is too long. Seems odd that factory ammo would not cycle through the Marlin coming straight from Hornady. I thought that was why they shortened the case, so it could be used in modern lever guns.

I can understand having the clearing problem if you were trying to reload long Leverevolution bullets in conventional brass and using the crimp groove on the bullet.

No sir, I was actually talking about the idea of loading the Hornady bullet on a normal lengthen case. The Hornady cartridge has the shorter case and will cycle through my 1895 Cowboy Marlin.

[Catshooter]

I usually like Hornady brass/products, but I will never buy any of their shortened 45-70. A poor idea in my book.


Cat

[Rafsob]

I usually like Hornady brass/products, but I will never buy any of their shortened 45-70. A poor idea in my book. Cat

I wouldn't say a very useful improvement in ballistics in a lever gun was a poor idea my friend.

[Catshooter]

I wouldn't say a very useful improvement in ballistics in a lever gun was a poor idea my friend.

I would agree with you, except for the shortened case. Very un-useful. Anti-useful? A useful-ectomy? Doesn't work for me, I know that.

I certainly don't mind the advance in ballistics. But surely they could have figured out a way to do it without making the bastard brass?


Cat

[flashhole]

Well said. I don't think they did the shooting industry a good turn with the leverevolution stuff. Would have been much better received if they'd standardized on the regular case. Some folks like it, some don't.

[johnski70]

I just ran into this shortened Hornady brass issue... Ibaize3's solution to crimp using a 45 Colt seat/crimp die worked absolutely perfect!

[buckshotshoey]

I just threw the 20 empties i had in the drawer and bought Starline. Less fuss since i dont have a 45 colt seating die.
And welcome to the forum. So much useful info here.

[dh2]

Hornady die.s for the 45-70 are the same as the 450 Marlin to work with this short brass issue, like loading .357 mag with .38 Spl dies it is just a die adjustment, I do not see why the 450 Marlin die set would not be a solation to the issue

[MT Chambers]

I can load and shoot 555gr. flat points in my Marlin 45/70, I think it's not smart for a company to bring out short brass because they have some funny bullet they need to fit it to. My Redding dies easily crimp def. length cases including for my .45/100.