Thinking About an AR. Which One?

[Bigscot]

I am thinking about getting and AR and have been to a local gun store. They have several and priced reasonably. What would be a good one for varmit and target. They have DPMS, Del-ton, Colt, and S&W.

I am new to AR's but not guns, shooting and reloading and have thought about building one but I may use it for a Christmas present. Any info or opinions welcome.

Bigscot

[P.K.]

Build to save $$$. If it's not a factor, Ruger.

[Lloyd Smale]

I wouldnt build my first gun. Its pretty intimidating anymore out there just figureing who sells good parts and what to buy to make a decent gun and the price of ARs has come down alot lately. Ive seen bushmasters at gander mountain (who are usualy high) for 650 bucks. You arent going to build one much cheaper. Id look at something like a stag, rock river arms or bushmaster. I own guns by all three and its basicaly a toss up between them. there all good guns. Id take my time, hound all the gunshops in your area until one of those three were on sale and jump on it.

[RKJ]

I've got a Bushmaster A2 and it's a pretty nice one. A buddy has a S&W that is (I believe) just a tad nicer but he's also got an Adams Arms (that he won lucky dog) :) and it is super nice. If you wanted an AR for competition, and to show off, one of those would be the ticket. Any of the brands you mentioned are pretty nice and would fit the bill nicely.

[Lloyd Smale]

Ill add this. If you can find a stag at a comparable price to something else go that route. They have a life time warantee even if your the second owner on everything. Even if you shoot out the barrel they will replace it. Thats why i use a stag with my bump fire stock

[x101airborne]

I own 11 black rifles currently in all manner of calibers. For target / accuracy competition, I would definately go Rock River. No question about it. Even on my bad day, I get sub .5 inch groups from my heavy barrel. DPMS is a good one also and they make my favorite AR-10 variant. For general use, I have a del ton that has served me well bummin through the woods. Light, reliable, and as accurate as I am offhand out to several hundred yards. Taken more coon and yote with that rifle than any other in my collection. To choose one? I would go with a Rock River or an Alexander Arms. With either, satisfaction is GURANTEED. And they seem to hold good re-sale value if you ever decide to unload it. Buy em now!!! you know an election is coming!

[sundog]

First off, I don't like M16/AR15/variants. Never have since the first time I met one in '69.

BUT, they can be very accurate. They are very easy to shoot.

I finally broke down last year and got one for high power. Did I mention easy to shoot? And a little less expensive to load for. I got a Rock River A4 National Match. To do again, I would get the same one. Not my favorite rifle, but out of the box it turns in very good scores.

[longhorn]

I wanted an AR carbine for Christmas, for plinking and home defense. AFter weeks of research, I decided Colt, Bravo Company Mfg, Lewis Machine and Tool, Noveske, and Daniel Defense were the top of the line manufacturers. My Colt SP6920 came in to the local shop on Monday. If I had only wanted something for plinking or shots of opportunity at coyotes, etc., I would have gone with a Bushmaster or another manufacturer in the same price range. If I had been looking for a varmint rifle, probably Rock River Arms. The only thing the Colt needs is a better trigger, but I'm a trigger fanatic. What are you planning on for the rifle? Good AR's are relatively inexpensive right now.

[Nyles]

Rock River, best of any that Ive owned

[M4bushy]

The mil spec colts are less than impressive. For a range toy any of the shelf brands will be fine. I would take my bushmaster m4 to a gunfight over my colt sp 6920 the bushmaster just eats anything and the colt is a bit picky for ammo. The 20" noveske h-bar upper that I use for club 3 gun is the sweetest shooting ar that I've ever shot.

[Lloyd Smale]

Funny i have a 6920 and mine runs flawlusly and is probably my best ar. Only thing ill say though is that its not as much better as the price comanded. Longhorn i have no experience with Daniel defense guns so i cant comment other then that ive heard there good. LMT guns are top shelf and a good buy. Noveskes are also top shelf but are the most overpriced ar on the market. There sold mostly to brand snobs in my opinion. You can justify to me in looking at the differnce in parts why they can get twice what a colt costs for one when the colt is allready overpriced. Funny thing is that one of my favorite ars is a 600 dollar dmps sportical. I shoots about anything sub moa and has been completely reliable. When i first got it I put a better bolt and carrier in it that cost me about 200 bucks. Still with only 800 invested its digested many many thousands of rounds completely trouble free and still shoots sub moa. Heres my thoughts on them. For the most part an upper is an upper and lower is a lower and it doesnt make squat differnce which brand a guy would build a gun on. the heart of any ar is the bolt carrier group and the barrel. I dont get all conserned about chrome lined barrrels. A standard barrel is just as good and in alot of cases more accurate. My favorite barrels are stainless as they cover both ends of it. Barrels are relitively cheap to replace so the fact that a chrome lined barrel may last a bit longer isnt really a consern of mine. What i look for first in one is reliability and secondly accuracy and it doesnt take a 1500 dollar plus ar to get you there. Same goes for the accessory snobs. they have to have billet 4 rails ect. Ive got a couple with stamped steal 4 rails that sure havent fell off!!!

[longhorn]

The Colt SP6920 came with MagPul: collapsing stock (I wanted), forend (comfy, no rails), grip and triggerguard, flip up rear sight, 2 30rd mags, and attachable front grip (?) for $945 shipped + transfer fee + sales tax. $150+ in accessories. That's what I meant about currently affordable.

I haven't handled a Daniel Defense, but their specs are good, as for the BCM (maybe the best deals out there right now). LMT uses a mid-length gas system on the carbine, which I think is still sort of experimental and perhaps a solution to a non-existent problem, in the words of Col. Cooper. And I agree--the Noveske's seem to be way overpriced-the one I handled was very nicely finished, much nicer looking than the LMT or the Colt, FWIW.

I chose the Colt mostly to get the pony on the side; I'm old enough to start considering resale value for my heirs! Otherwise, it would have been BCM.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

JP Enterprises makes a very accurate one, but lately I have been seeing a lot of the Stag Arms G3, or is it 3G? Well below MOA accuracy.

I got another LAR lower yesterday, first of the year we start another build. The build box has a Jewell 2lb trigger, a MagPul PRS butt stock, and a Lilja 1:8" twist barrel blank in it. Pieces & parts, parts & pieces, plus the fun of building to my specs.

Rich

[sabrecross03]

Rock River is having some great sales. Some of the rifles have all of the extras such a moly-chromed barrel, chrome bolt group, free floating barrel, flip-up sights, etc for $1000 (with case and 2 magazines). Can't beat that if you are trying to build one unless you skimp here and there.

[HodakaGA]

I suggest you give Legal Transfers a call for a Rock River. I can't find a lower price anywhere and they are great to deal with......at least my experiences were. They are a large Stag dealer too.

Their site is AR15Sales.com.

[Snafu12]

Rock River, best of any that Ive owned
RR 24" flat top
200 yards
It killed many groundhogs when we were based in WNY
http://i376.photobucket.com/albums/oo201/JWKJR/group.jpg

[wv109323]

Shotgun News printed a story on one of its writers building an AR-15. He used a kit for J&T Distributing. The good thing about the kit was all the work was done for you. The upper was completely assembled and headspaced. The barrel nut was torqued. The build amounted to assembling the lower receiver. The article said that 2-3 hours was max to have the "kit" in shooting condition.
Accuracy was quite good with many loads at 1" or less at 100 yrds.

[keyhole]

I did not see anyone mention Olympic Arms, so what I state is not meant to step on any toes.
The only AR I would intentionally avoid is Olympic Arms. A friend bought one new some years ago. It would double, meaning fire 2 rounds with one trigger squeeze. Factory was not heplful and seemed annoyed with his problem. He got rid of it. I used to shoot highpower competitively at the club level. Other AR shooters said the same thing- avoid Olympic Arms. I have an old Colt SP1 and Rock River NM A2. The RR is all I would expect - great trigger, accurate, never a malfunction. The Colt is 100% reliable but trigger quality is not the best.

[x101airborne]

Hmmm. Notice a pattern? RR. Rock. Rock River. Best trigger. Best quality. No malfunctions. etc.
I may not be a smart man, but moma said life was like a box of chocolates. The cheap ones taste like sh!t.

[Rokkit Syinss]

I did not see anyone mention Olympic Arms, so what I state is not meant to step on any toes.
The only AR I would intentionally avoid is Olympic Arms. A friend bought one new some years ago. It would double, meaning fire 2 rounds with one trigger squeeze. Factory was not heplful and seemed annoyed with his problem. He got rid of it. I used to shoot highpower competitively at the club level. Other AR shooters said the same thing- avoid Olympic Arms. I have an old Colt SP1 and Rock River NM A2. The RR is all I would expect - great trigger, accurate, never a malfunction. The Colt is 100% reliable but trigger quality is not the best.


The most common cause of that is swapping the bolt release and disconnector springs, same length, same O.D. but different wire weights.

[Rokkit Syinss]

As for a new AR, depends what you want to do with it. I'll state up front I think all factory triggers in them suck, a Geissele trigger is the way to go. I have a Double Star 24" bull barrel flat top and it shoots fine, I just added a White Oak Precision A2 upper for Highpower. J&T Distributing is the parts/kit side of Double Star and their stuff will work just fine.

Rock River makes a nice out of the box rifle as do Bushmaster and Colt. DPMS has a very spotty rep. in some circles. Unless you're deployed in a swamp or dust bowl avoid the piston systems, they buy you nothing but adverse environment function and only a few of them do that.....well if you're a tactitard/mall_ninja/tactitool get a piston system and all the rail mounted **** you can find. That's a joke.....

[Ickisrulz]

Build it. Local lower receiver with G and R tactical parts kits. Then use Bravo Company USA upper. Furniture and sights depend on what you want to do.

[rmcc]

1st Armalite - best quality, mil spec
2nd Colt
3rd - Anything else except Olympic

I have had 2 Olympic Arms, 2 Colts, and 1 Armalite. The only one I would not part with would be the Armalite. Both Oly's I had were NOT mil spec and were very picky about ammo. Unless I used small base dies jams were frequent!! The Colts were Colts, great quality no frills.

Good luck in your search!!

Rich

[keyhole]

The most common cause of that is swapping the bolt release and disconnector springs, same length, same O.D. but different wire weights.

Too bad we did not know that a change of the parts you describe may have cured it, but Olympic did not suggest or offer to do that. It doubled right as it came out of the box from Olympic Arms. So it was malfunctioning right from the get-go. Thanks for the suggestions, though.
My friend also bought a 2nd Olympic Arms barreled upper with the rifle. It was a different barrel length, I believe. The hole for the hinge pin did not line up quite right so he had to send it back to get it drilled out larger. Olympic charged him $40 to fix (more or less) what should have fit right in the first place. It was a piece of junk rifle with customer service of equal quality.

[405]

What would be a good one for varmit and target. They have DPMS, Del-ton, Colt, and S&W.

Any info or opinions welcome.

Bigscot

OK only my opinion. Unless you can rattle off the insider codes, initials or names of at least 5 AR knock offs with at least that many modifications in one sentence, your best bet is maybe finding someone local that has one and asking to go to the range with him to see how well it shoots.

:) IMO for accuracy- go with the one that is most accurate. For retaining value in this flaky market in flux go with the Colt.

[parrott1969]

You should assemble your own. Notice that I did not say build your own. Contact London Bridge Firearms in Lake Havasau, Arizonia. The have a web sight. Buy a Plum Crazy carbon fiber lower. These are excellent and have a perfect upper to lower fit. The go to Delton Inc and order you an upper. They will come complete with bolt carrier group, test fired etc. All you have to do is snap the two together and volia, you have a handy dandy Ar. Total cost on the last two that I did was less than $600

[Pat I.]

BCM upper, BCM bolt carrier, Gun Fighter charging handle, any lower, RR parts kit. For a decent knock about look at Delton.

[Reverend Recoil]

Should you build your own AR15?

If what you want is availible off the shelf as a standard model from a major manufuacture you will not save any money by assembling a clone of such a rifle. It is very difficult to undercut the manufacture by purchasing new parts and the needed tools.

Building yourself is worthwhile if:
1. What you want in not availible off the shelf.
2. You already have most of the tools and parts on hand or have a source of used parts.
3. You don't really care about the total cost and want to do it for the knowledge, skills, and enjoyment.

I went the route of #3 when I built my CPM service rifle. Rock River CMP rifle are hard to beat. They will shoot master scores right out of the box. Mine cost a bit more but it has a few special touches not found on the Rock River rifle. The best thing is I can now change out a worn barrel all by myself and be ready for the next match in one afternoon.

[400short]

I shoot a rock river nm and it hammers. the RR customer service is excellent. I also have a dpms carbine that is surprisingly accurate for what it is.

[wtfooptimax200]

I am a big proponent of Stag Arms. They are made locally and my gunsmith highly recommended them. They are also quite reasonably priced. I have both the rifle and carbine length guns and love them. They also make an awesome left handed AR if you're a southpaw.

[midnight]

I tend to assemble my own from parts. At least that way I get what I want the first time. I'm probably not the guy to ask about which is best cuz I havn't got any bad parts yet. I do like Superior Arms stripped lowers though. That is because I like to use Jard triggers. The usual sear engagement adjustment on a Jard is a short ¼x28 screw in the pistol grip screw hole. This requires a shorter screw to attach the pistol grip cuz there is already a short screw in the hole. Superior lowers have two (2) ¼x28 threaded holes which makes adjustment of the sear engagement much easier and allows a full length screw to attach the pistol grip. You can also use anti-walk trigger and hammer pins. Most off the shelf guns are some sort of compromise.

Bob

[arjacobson]

I am a big proponent of Stag Arms. They are made locally and my gunsmith highly recommended them. They are also quite reasonably priced. I have both the rifle and carbine length guns and love them. They also make an awesome left handed AR if you're a southpaw.

Thats what I went with for my upper. My son got the same upper but for a lefty. No complaints at all

[M4bushy]

I am a big proponent of Stag Arms. They are made locally and my gunsmith highly recommended them. They are also quite reasonably priced. I have both the rifle and carbine length guns and love them. They also make an awesome left handed AR if you're a southpaw.

Stag rifle seems to shoot ok but the only one I've shot had an issue with the bolt carrier. It appears that the bolt carrier was missing an operation. The rear of the carrier was missing the chamfer and final machining to the end of the carrier. This didn't hinder the operation of the rifle but it destroyed the face of the buffer. I'm not sure how the owner made out contacting stag to fix the problem. I'm not sure how the assembler didn't catch this issue I was able to see it as soon as I removed the bolt carrier.

[MBTcustom]

DPMS sportical in 308.:bigsmyl2: All of the fun and you can cast for it. (at least easier than .223)

[montana_charlie]

I don't have an AR ... yet ... but I am leaning toward one of the 'complete kits' which give you everything except the stripped lower receiver. It looks like I can have a complete 20-inch rifle for less than $500.
But, I HAVE been doing tons of reading in order to make decisions about what I want to end up with.

I have pretty well eliminated Colt products because they all go with the 1 in 7 twist in the barrel.
Initially, I will only be interested in the two NATO rounds, so I will get a barrel with the 1 in 9 twist.

If you haven't considered this aspect, it's something to learn about before you lay your money down ...

CM

[9.3X62AL]

Gotta add some props for Rock River.

Saw the results from my buddy's assembly of an Aero Precision lower with a RR 20" flat-top heavy barrel. 1-8" twist. 100 yards.

69 grain Matchkings--.5 to .7 MOA

77 grain Matchkings--.6 to .9 MOA

Fiocchi 55 grain FMJ--.3 to .4 MOA (!)

All factory ammo. New upper (under 300 round history).

FWIW, at the same time I assembled an Aero Precision lower unit onto a Del-Ton 20" A2 milspec upper. It runs everything from 55 grainers to 69 MK into 1.25" to 1.5" groups at 100 yards with its stock irons. The standard is 2 MOA for these critters, so I'm a happy camper. Also, I loaded Speer 62 grain FMJs to military specs (26.1 grains of WC-844), and once sighted in the impacts from 300 to 600 meters followed the sight settings very closely. Yes, ARs are fun rifles.

[M4bushy]

I don't have an AR ... yet ... but I am leaning toward one of the 'complete kits' which give you everything except the stripped lower receiver. It looks like I can have a complete 20-inch rifle for less than $500.
But, I HAVE been doing tons of reading in order to make decisions about what I want to end up with.

I have pretty well eliminated Colt products because they all go with the 1 in 7 twist in the barrel.
Initially, I will only be interested in the two NATO rounds, so I will get a barrel with the 1 in 9 twist.

If you haven't considered this aspect, it's something to learn about before you lay your money down ...

CM

The 1-7 twist is designed for the 62gr ammo that the military uses. The colt is as mil-spec as you can get. A bit over priced too!

[9.3X62AL]

All of my current 223/5.56 rifles have 1-9" twists--the AR, the Mini-14, and a Ruger bolter.

The price of bullets goes up SHARPLY once you start shooting the javelin-length target numbers like the 69 grainers and above. For popping rats, 55 grain bullets are fine, and I'm leaning toward a 1-12" twist for my "rat" upper. 24" truck-axle barrel, too. :)

The AR-15 reminds me a lot of Barbie dolls my daughters grew up playing with. Endless expensive accessories.

[M4bushy]

All of my current 223/5.56 rifles have 1-9" twists--the AR, the Mini-14, and a Ruger bolter.

The price of bullets goes up SHARPLY once you start shooting the javelin-length target numbers like the 69 grainers and above. For popping rats, 55 grain bullets are fine, and I'm leaning toward a 1-12" twist for my "rat" upper. 24" truck-axle barrel, too. :)

The AR-15 reminds me a lot of Barbie dolls my daughters grew up playing with. Endless expensive accessories.

I have a 14.5" mil spec barrel 1-7 twist with a permanent flash hider to make it legal length, a 20" hbar high power gun 1-9 twist and an 18" mini SASS 1-8 twist and all will shoot bulk 55 gr hornady bullets sub moa at 100 yds.
My ruger model 1 varminter in 22-250 has 1-14 twist and anything over 55 gr shoots 1.5 moa or worse. I do realize there is a huge velocity difference between them but a faster twist seems more versatile IMHO.

[montana_charlie]

The 1-7 twist is designed for the 62gr ammo that the military uses. The colt is as mil-spec as you can get.
That round was developed for a machine gun, and the heavier weight was intended to make it effective at 800 yards.
When it became the standardized NATO cartridge, the U.S. had already gone to the M-4 carbine. In such a short barrel (with the resulting low velocity) a 1 in 7 twist was required in order to stabilize that long bullet.

If you have a rifle-length barrel, the faster twist is not required because you can achieve the necessary velocity. Additionally, the 9-twist does not over-spin the lightly built 'varmint bullets' on the market today ... which means they won't fragment upon exit from the muzzle.

CM

[dk17hmr]

Im not much help for a factory gun, the DPMS super bull my dad has shoots really well though. That is the only factory AR15 that is in any of our safes. I only have 1 AR in 223 and it has a Delta Company Arms barrel (14.5+1.5) its light weight, shoots well, and is ussable in the cab of my pick up when coyote hunting. I normally shoot 55gr out of it but with its 1:8 twist it shoots well with 68+ grain bullets.

If you fall in love with the AR and want to hunt with it I would suggest a 6.8SPC....although the 300 whisper shoots great with cast and can be loaded right up with 125gr NBT.

[9.3X62AL]

The faster twist is more versatile, no two ways about it. I just don't think a 90 grain MK is required to reach a rat at 300 yards......and Buckshot's Savage bolter with 1-12" pitch drills rats with 55 grainers well past 300 yards with regularity. I'm probably over-thinking this, as usual. JUST SHOOT THE THING.

[Matthew 25]

SNAFU...nice.

[P.K.]

You should assemble your own. Notice that I did not say build your own. Contact London Bridge Firearms in Lake Havasau, Arizonia. The have a web sight. Buy a Plum Crazy carbon fiber lower. These are excellent and have a perfect upper to lower fit. The go to Delton Inc and order you an upper. They will come complete with bolt carrier group, test fired etc. All you have to do is snap the two together and volia, you have a handy dandy Ar. Total cost on the last two that I did was less than $600

Gotta go here, mentioned it many times and ZERO complaints. Refrence SGN build on an AR in the January issue. 17th?

[P.K.]

Also a PCF lower waqs used in the build and it worked flawlessly. The entire build cost 6 bills. A compleat AR.

[Hamish]

Unsubstantiated, but I keep hearing that the Army has contracted with Plum Crazy for lowers, but with the *Crazy* on it. After slumming around looking to save every penny possible I found this:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=41761

This thread helped me to find this:

http://www.jsesurplus.com/yhmyankeehill16carbineuppercompleteyhm-7100-1-1.aspx

Will be putting it on a Plum that has been in the drawer for awhile while I mulled things over, Personally, I just wanted somehing to play with for when the 22 NATO group buy goes down, and for when SHTF. I'm already thinking I need another one for strictly SHTF with assist, carry handle irons, 14 1/2" with bare buffer tube,,,,,,,,,,

@(:^]#>:::

[oscarflytyer]

I recently picked up a Windham Weaponry M4 w/ regular (no grenade launch cut) bbl, flattop with attached carry handle and A2 sights. Very happy with it so far. Approx 100 rds through it and no jams, etc.

Look up Windham, guy that founded Bushmaster and then sold it to Cerberus, and after a 5 yr no compete clause, reopened and rehired old workers and the Windham Weaponry is the results.

[montana_charlie]

Like Hamish, I have been attracted to JSE Surplus. I have not received my stripped lower, yet, so I haven't ordered my '20" rifle kit' yet.

But I have decided to buy it unassembled. It's twenty-five bucks cheaper that way, but it gives me total control of an area that has been troubling me. That area is this ...

In the research for building instructions, I found it's pretty common to see advice for correcting cant when assembling the barrel to the upper reciever.

There is a guide pin and a slot for it to slip into, so there shouldn't be any way for a barrel (or front sight) to be canted to one side. But, apparently it happens frequently enough that there are plenty of YouTubes which show the 'workaround'.

That 'fix' involves filing out the width of the slot in the upper so the barrel can be turned in the desired direction before tightening the nut.

That sounds stupid to me.

If the pin is in the slot, and the sight leans to the side, it's apparent that the sight is the problem. So, why would you modify the upper receiver to correct a sight installation problem?

Also, widening the slot so the barrel can rotate will cause the feedramp cuts in the upper to be mismatched with the feedramps in the barrel extension.

Is it possible to 're-install' the front sight when it's found to be canted?
Or, must the barrel be replaced?

CM

[Gee_Wizz01]

Montana Charlie
Most of the sights have two cross pins installed and the cross pins have slot drilled through the bottom edge of the barrel. There are sights available that are put on with two set screws, so you have some adjustment latitude. However, since the sight also lines up with the gas port in the barrel, you cant do a lot of adjustment. My take is that the problem is more prevalent with less expensive (cheap) barrels. I don't like widening the slot, because I think it just induces slop in the system, but guys do it, and it doesn't seem to effect accuracy.

G

[montana_charlie]

My take is that the problem is more prevalent with less expensive (cheap) barrels.
That sounds reasonable, but it's hard to quantify.
Those sellers of 'complete kits' who actually name their barrel sources mention Wilson, Shaw, and Mossberg, among others.

JSE Surplus seems to get their barrels from DPMS and Del-Ton, with Del-Ton being the more expensive. Both of those houses appear to make their own barrels.

I guess a guy could go searching among the commonly available barrels to see which are 'cheap' and which are not. But, I have settled opun a 'kit', so the barrel brand is decided for me ... and will be Del-Ton or DPMS, it looks like.

By choosing to do the assembly myself, I will know from the start if the extension guide pin and the gas port don't line up.

At least, thanks to your reply, I can decide if a small amount of 'adjustment' will correct the problem if it exists.

Thanks,
CM

[Ickisrulz]

Good information on BCM at:

http://bravocompanymfg.com/index.php

I have two of their complete upper assemblies. Excellent stuff.

[Dirty30]

I have shot pretty much every brand in the Army and I honestly believe it doesn't make a difference. I own a DPMS just to practice with and it's a shooter, however my issue rifles have been bushmasters, colts, rock rivers.....some are jems and some are lemons. (usually the ones that have spent years in Iraq) For longer range shooting you'll want an A2/A4 style rifle. If you want to shoot varmints and distance on the range shy away from the M4 style. Don't let anyone sell you on a lot of rail mounted hero gear either. Good sights/optics and good fundamentals will make about any AR type rifle drive tacks, hero gear makes a pogue paper weight.

[Ickisrulz]

I have shot pretty much every brand in the Army and I honestly believe it doesn't make a difference. I own a DPMS just to practice with and it's a shooter, however my issue rifles have been bushmasters, colts, rock rivers.....some are jems and some are lemons. (usually the ones that have spent years in Iraq) For longer range shooting you'll want an A2/A4 style rifle. If you want to shoot varmints and distance on the range shy away from the M4 style. Don't let anyone sell you on a lot of rail mounted hero gear either. Good sights/optics and good fundamentals will make about any AR type rifle drive tacks, hero gear makes a pogue paper weight.

Are you saying you used Bushmaster and RRA products in combat as a US Military member? That's something I've never heard. I was under the impression that our military was supplied by Colt and FN alone. I have heard of contractors using other brands of ARs though and did hear of very few Bushmmasters making it into the supply chain by mistake at one time.

[montana_charlie]

I have seen remarks saying that because Bushmaster, DPMS, and others have government contracts, 'their stuff is mil-spec'.
I am sure that Colt is no longer the only supplier of ARs, and that Armalite (for one) is providing some of them. I see no reason why that could not include other companies, but I don't know how the soldier in the field would know the brand name ... unless (of course) it's plainly rolled into the metal.

As for Dirty 30's underlying message, I agree. The parts I have on order will build a standard A4 rifle that would not look out of place in a platoon weapons rack.

CM

[Ickisrulz]

I have seen remarks saying that because Bushmaster, DPMS, and others have government contracts, 'their stuff is mil-spec'.
I am sure that Colt is no longer the only supplier of ARs, and that Armalite (for one) is providing some of them. I see no reason why that could not include other companies, but I don't know how the soldier in the field would know the brand name ... unless (of course) it's plainly rolled into the metal.

As for Dirty 30's underlying message, I agree. The parts I have on order will build a standard A4 rifle that would not look out of place in a platoon weapons rack.

CM

The m16s I used in the military had Colt plainly marked on them. I saw no others. I never saw an FN, but know for sure they supply rifles to our military.

I never saw Bushmaster, RRA or DPMS either and have never heard anyone in uniform say they were issued one of these manufacturers' rifles for use in combat. I have heard of one of the branches using RRA NM in competition. So that is why I asked Dirty30 what his experience was. I also know contactors can buy from whomever they choose (at their own peril in some cases).

[montana_charlie]

The rest of my 'parts' came in today, so I built my AR.
No need for pictures because it looks exactly like an issue A4 rifle with a 20" barrel and detachable carry handle.
It's just what I had in mind when the 'feeling' started growing. It is a SHTF gun, and doesn't need to be fancy.

Because it was ordered as 'parts, and they came in at different times from various places, the whole shootin' match cost me $570. Counting shipping and twenty bucks for the local FFL guy, it came to $624.

I have a small amount of ammo on hand, so I might shoot it tomorrow.

Thanks for suggestions and advice in this thread and another over in Swappin' and Sellin'.

CM

[milprileb]

Colt and FN have the military services contracts.

Other govt. agencies may have other maker AR / M4 weapons.

THe Coast Guard may have other than Colt and FN weapons.

[jlucht01]

I just finished my build last night. M&P-15 Stripped Lower with Del-ton flat top upper. All the parts went together very easy and for a guy that has never owned an AR i had that lower parts kit installed in 45 minutes. I have not shot the gun yet, i need the spanner wrench for the butt stock before i can do that.

The only thing I can see off the get go is I do not care for the trigger pull. Going to pick up an Optic and a couple mags tonight.

Total Price:$580

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_109284f215c3d38e6a.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=3602)

[montana_charlie]

Since the discussion (right now) is mainly centered around building rather than buying outright, I have something to contribute. It has been a matter of confusion ever since I started researching the matter of building a rifle from parts.

That is confusion over the difference in A2 front sight bases.
There is the 'standard' A2 FSB, and you have the 'F-marked' A2 FSB.
The difference between them is that they are different in height.

In many (most?) places where information is available, the governing wisdom says that the F-marked FSB is required when the upper is an A4 (flattop).
It is explained that the rear sight on a fixed carry handle A2 receiver is higher above the bore than that of a detachable carry handle on an A4. Therefore, you need a front sight of a different height to match up to the lower sight line on the flattop.

Without thinking that through, I simply absorbed the information. I felt it was strongly reinforced as 'gospel' by the note on the Del-Ton site. They offer a range of options in their 20" rifle kits, and the note specifies that when you order the A2 upper with fixed carry handle, you must change the FSB option to 'standard' instead of F-marked.

My kit from JSE is a 20" rifle with the flattop upper. The FSB is NOT F-marked. It appeared that they sent me an incorrect combination of parts. During an email discussion with JSE it became evident that their barrels come from Del-Ton, and the sight bases are already installed at the Del-Ton factory. All of the 20" barrels JSE gets have standard bases.

That kinda floored me. I was using the note on the Del-Ton site as my 'bible' reference that proves all of those 'internet experts' were telling it true.
Yet Del-Ton seemed to be 'sinning' against their own 'commandment'.

So I went on a hunt for information solely on that subject.
I found pictures that show the F-marked base is taller than the standard FSB.
Wait a minute! If you have a lower rear sight on A4 uppers, doesn't that need a lower front sight to keep proper alignment?
If your rear is lower and your front is taller, you will be shooting into the dirt!

Something wasn't making sense.

Eventually, I found a guy (on a forum, somewhere) who had a different take from all of the others. He said that (while he was in service) all of the A4 rifles they received had standard bases. The early M4s (with fixed handles) had the F-marked FSBs.

The difference? Sight radius ... not sight height!

Real quick-like, I opened MS Paint and drew a black horzontal line across the field.
Then I dropped down a measurable amount and drew a rising red line from a low point on the left to meet the black line on the right side of the field.

Black is line of sight, and red is angle of elevation of the bore.

Moving out to the right a ways, I drew a vertical line between the red and black to represent the front sight. I then copied that front sight and used Edit to produce another identical one.

Dragging that second front sight down to the red line and placing it to the left of the first one proves that a shorter sight radius requires a taller front sight if the rear sight and bore angle remain constant.

Conclusion:
The F-marked A2 Front sight base is for carbine length barrels ... irrespective of upper receiver style.

CM

[W.R.Buchanan]

I am not a big fan of AR's as there is about 50 outfits making them and another 100 making parts for them. I have gotten bitten by one and I have stayed away ever since. Most are heavy and don't balance well, so as a result I have a Mini 14.

All that said, I found one at the SHOT show that I do like. I mean I really like it!!!

It is made by Primary Weapons Systems , and it is their MK1 rifle www.primaryweapons.com and comes in several barrel lengths.

These guns are "piston driven guns," which is one of my big requirements, and the one I liked the most was the 14" barrel version which has the flash hider pinned onto the barrel making the barrel 16.1 OAL. It weighs slightly over 6 lbs!

This gun handles so well I almost bought one at the show. Mind you I'm not a fan of AR's ,but this one had every problem I have had with them in the past,,, fixed.

It just felt really good in my hands, which none of the others ever have.

I want one,! and you should defiantely check them out. They are not cheap at about $1680MSRP, but you'd be looking at about $1400 street price, and you'd easily have that in any AR that had all the right stuff mounted on it anyway.

This one only needs a sling to finish it out.

I'm pretty serious about this gun. I need and AR just to compete, and this one would do everything I need right out of the box.

This outfit also makes the coolest Ruger 10/22 I have ever seen. It looks just like a hotrod highend 10/22 however it is NOT a Semi Auto. It is a strait pull Biathalon style action. It has a lever/knob hanging down right behind the ejection port on the right side of the action. You cycle it by pulling it back with your trigger fingers first knuckle, and then close it by pushing forward on the back side of the knob with your thumb. It is very cool!!!

You should have a look. This outfit makes really nice stuff !!!

Randy

[John 242]

That round was developed for a machine gun, and the heavier weight was intended to make it effective at 800 yards.
When it became the standardized NATO cartridge, the U.S. had already gone to the M-4 carbine. In such a short barrel (with the resulting low velocity) a 1 in 7 twist was required in order to stabilize that long bullet.

If you have a rifle-length barrel, the faster twist is not required because you can achieve the necessary velocity. Additionally, the 9-twist does not over-spin the lightly built 'varmint bullets' on the market today ... which means they won't fragment upon exit from the muzzle.

CM

The Belgian SS109, which latter became the M855, met NATO's penetration and ballistic requirements as a rifle cartridge, where as the M193 cartridge (55-grain) did not.
The SS-109/M855 was adopted by NATO about the same time the US adopted the M16A2 in the early '80s.
(My unit had the M16A1 until about '91 or '92. My first issue rifle had a A1 upper and a Armalite AR-15 receiver in 1990. We also had 1911s at the time)

The M4s weren't procured/issued till the mid-'90s (1994).
(We had M3A1 Grease Guns until the mid-'90s in my unit, until they were replaced by M4s)

The 1 in 7" twist barrel was produced for the M16A2 from the beginning of it's production and has continued to the present day.

The M855's 62-grain bullet has a steel penetrator in it. The steel penetrator allows it to meet NATO's penetration standards. The heavier bullet is also ballistically superior to the the 55-grain version and has (on paper) a greater effective range.
(Effective range of the M16A2 used to be 550m point target, 800 area, by the book)

M193 Ball was the standard issue FMJ prior to the M855. The M193 had a bullet of 55-grains and was issued from the adoption of the M16 in the early 1960s until the M16A1 was removed from the inventory. The M16A1 was replaced by the M16A2 in the late '80s and early '90s. The M16A1 with its 1 in 12" twist, was said to have problems stabilizing the longer M855 bullet. The M16A2/A3/A4 or M4/A1 will supposedly stabilize the M193's 55-grain bullet, although maybe not to Match accuracy.

Other issue 5.56-
Mk 262 Match Grade ammunition has been issued to US Army soldiers deployed during combat operations in Iraq. The Mk 262 has a 77-grain Sierra Match King bullet and is supposed to offer greater accuracy and wounding effect at greater distances than the M855. However, the Mk 262 doesn't have the M855s steel penetrator.
(I have experience with the Mk 262 Model 0 as issued in Iraq. I stuck bullet in throat of my M4 when extracting a round from the chamber in 2006. (Too long for the M4 throat?) I Stopped using them after that. Did not see any Mk 262 on 2008-09 or 2010-11 tours.)

The M249-
The M249 was supposed to be a squad automatic weapon, who's role was to provide automatic suppressive fire, since the M16A2 wasn't full-auto. The M249 was adopted (1984) at about the same time as the M16A2 and was a descendant of the FN Minimi.

Well, that turned out kind of long. Thought someone might appreciate it.

[montana_charlie]

The only thing I can think of that you left out is the fact that the steel penetrator in the SS109 bullet is to enable it to penetrate an infantryman's helmet (at some prescribed range).
It does not make the M855 'amour piercing' ammo.

CM

[John 242]

The only thing I can think of that you left out is the fact that the steel penetrator in the SS109 bullet is to enable it to penetrate an infantryman's helmet (at some prescribed range).
It does not make the M855 'amour piercing' ammo.

CM

Yeah, it's kind of like 'semi-armor piercing'... kind of sort of...
:wink: