Black powder duplex loads?

[Hang Fire]

I have been reading on black powder loads for accuracy in single shot rifles and come across some records being shot around turn of 20th century with duplex loads. From what I gather, the load consisted of about 3 grains of early smokeless under the black powder. Was this for improving load or does it burn cleaner? Does anyone shoot such loads today?

[RMulhern]

Oh..I'm certain others do it! Just like 'others' that stick 45 grs. of smokeless in a case 2.4" long DESIGNED FOR BLACKPOWDER and then gripe that "My rifle won't shoot!"

[Chill Wills]

Black powder duplex loads?
I do not use them for much anymore but there are many reasons to learn about them by shooting them.
There is no shortage of controversy about this subject but the best way would be to try it and have your own experience.
Moreover, there is LOTs of data out there, read all you want, you won't run out.
A few grains of SR-4759 would be a great way to start.
One of the big things it can do is turn poor powder into OK or even really great shooting powder and as you have noted it shoots very clean.

And, on and on....... Buckle your seat belt and read what comes next!

[John Boy]

Does anyone shoot such loads today?
Hang Fire, yes I shoot duplex BP reloads but a little history first: The match shooters around the turn of the century used a different 'smokeless' powder as we know it today. That 'smokeless' powder was Dupont's Lesmok and Kings Powder which both were semi smokeless powder with charcoal mixed with nitrocellulose , sulfur and potassium nitrate.
This duplex's purpose was to increase the velocity for reloads used in matches, specifically 200yd Schuetzen matches. These shooters also used straight semi smokeless rounds
Later on, real smokeless came into being such as Lightning that was pure nitrocellulose based and the use of duplex and semi smokeless rounds waned going up into the 1930's. Remington factory semi smokeless Lesmok ceased around pre- WWII. Kings semi smokeless in the early 1930's IIRC. I have a box of Remington 22lr rounds that have a 1939 birth date

OK, as for duplexing the rule is: use a smokeless powder that by its self does not generate a pressure for a given charge & bullet weight greater than the SAMMI MAXIMUM pressure for that caliber using straight black powder. Then use 5 -10% smokeless of the black powder charge and reduce the black powder by that 5-10% ... dependent on the smokeless powder psi or CUP

The warning caveat: Duplexing with real smokeless powder on the market today is not recommended for any reloader unless they have substantial smokeless powder internal ballistics knowledge for the powder that is intended to be used

[OuchHot!]

The knowledge base today is quite a bit better developed than what was available decades ago. I recall using such duplex loads to get better ignition and cleaner burning in BPCR. Over time, I found that correct primer selection and modest compression of the BP eliminated any need for such duplex loading. I have shot quite a few shots in BPCR with no problem and great accuracy without the crutch of duplex loading. At this point in time, I cannot say that the duplex load was needed but merely a symptom of my lack of know how. Maybe the BP today is simply better? I don't know. I haven't shot a duplex PB/smokeless in maybe 30yrs and see no reason to do so now.

[JeffinNZ]

My Martini Cadet LOVES a duplex load of 3.7gr of H4227 under 13gr of Swiss 3Fg. Burns so clean the bore is shiny after firing.

[45 2.1]

Oh..I'm certain others do it! Just like 'others' that stick 45 grs. of smokeless in a case 2.4" long DESIGNED FOR BLACKPOWDER and then gripe that "My rifle won't shoot!"

If you study the history your trying to duplicate. You would find that the early leaders of long range accuracy actually tried and used triplex loads of different granulations of blackpowder. All of them used new technology to increase accuracy and ease of shooting. None of them went backwards................;-)

[frnkeore]

I've shot duplex loads since '86 and shot my last duplexed load at the end of October of this year. I came to single shots from round ball muzzle loaders in '85 so, it was a natural thing for me to shoot BP. At that time all that was available was GOEX and in group buys, it was $5 a pound.

The world famous Rowland group was shot with a duplex load and very few shooters have equaled or beat that group even 100+ years later with the finest smokeless powders available today.

At the turn of the century most match shooters used either Bulk Schuetzen or seived (using the FFG size granuals) Bulk Shot Gun powder in there duplex loads. Some even used the smokeless on top of the black powder, with claims the the black ignited better. In all cases that I've read about it was to keep the BP fouling down. The newer BP's I'm sure are better than the older stuff but, it still fouls. Most guys that use blow tubes would rather wipe between shots if they had the time aloted for it. I've also shot slug guns and the wiping has to be kept the same from shot to shot but, you shoot on a clean bore and I will venture to say that NO other way is as good. I also tried duplex with my slug gun (not legal) and had good results (not as good as wiping) w/o wiping the barrel for 3 - 5 sighters and 10 record shots.

Now for my personal experiance........... These are the rifles that I've shot duplex,

44 Stevens, 32/40, both fixed and breech seated.
Ballard 32/40, BSed
Win HW, 32/40, BSed
Clerke HW, 32/40, BSed
44 1/2 Stevens, 32/35, BSed
Hoch, 32/35, BSed
Sharps Borchardt, 45/70, BSed

I use no less than 10% and no more than 15% smokeless in my loads, you also still need a good lube. Darr lube is ok, Emmert maybe better, I use my own mix, but can't say that it's better than some others as long as they keep the fouling some what soft.

You can use the 10 - 15% with any powder in the 4759 - H110 burn rate, safely. I've not tried the newr powders but, if you use GOEX, use only FG, FFG is not as accurate in my testing, because of the fines in it, I guess.

BSed, you can get the velocity over 1500 fps with full case charges so, I mostly use 4759 to take up space so, there is less BP to increase velocity. My only formula is that I use smokeless by weight and BP by bulk. That so the smokeless is well controled. I've toped the charge with both a grease wad and solid and I believe the solid wad has a advantage but, only a little. I also use heavier tapered bullets and I don't think you'll get as good of results with lighter bullets (like 165 gr 32's). My fixed 32/40 loads for the 44 are 319247, 165's but, they were only to see what a orginal gun would do loaded with all original stuff. #6 loading tool, Lyman sights and all.

These are my best 5 shot groups, shot in competion at 200 yards in back to back years, I believe my highest score target was a 243 all shot with scopes. My best iron sight score was 237.

Frankhttp://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_88524ef25ba69d8be.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=3075)

[kokomokid]

45 2.1 Do you have any reference material on duplex or triplex of black powder (no smokeless). I have tried a small charge of 3f below 1.5f and 1f without much sucess? THANKS LB

[45 2.1]

The world famous Rowland group was shot with a duplex load and very few shooters have equaled of beat that group even 100+ years later with the finest smokeless powders available today. Frank

Rowlands group was a machine rest one, not hand held. It has been beaten in competition by handheld SS smokeless powder rifles. Pope said he shot an equal to it handheld in practise, but he reported he lost it to the wind while gathering equipment.


45 2.1 Do you have any reference material on duplex or triplex of black powder (no smokeless). I have tried a small charge of 3f below 1.5f and 1f without much sucess? THANKS LB

I read the triplex add in a pre 1900 periodical. Duplexing with 4f in back of coarser BP was common and in some cases slower BP was behind faster BP. They had a much greater choice in BP as well as the English powders. One would have to search the old shooting magazines of that era to find more.

[Ed in North Texas]

Paul Mathews had information on duplex loads in several of his books. And, I seem to recall that the Canadian "Victorian" (Snider and Martini-Henry, probably among others) rifle competition allows duplex loads in their competitive matches.

[twildman]

If you can dig up Ned Robert's articles from the 1930s in the American Rifleman, you will find that he made extensive use of duplex loadings in BP calibers, from small to very large. I seem to recall mention made by him of "NUmber 80", which, if I recall, was the predecessor of 4759.

[twildman]

Sorry, that is Ned Roberts's articles....grammar, ya know..

[Chill Wills]

[QUOTE=45 2.1;1511989]Rowlands group was a machine rest one, not hand held.
I grew up with in eye shot of Rowland’s old place at the mouth of Eldorado Canyon. No place in Colorado does the wind blow harder and gust higher. Wicked nasty place.

I forgot half or most of what I think I know about Rowland. 45 2.1, if it was NOT shot with front rest, barrel in roller shoe clamp and rear bags I am not sure what it is you mean. Maybe we are talking about the same thing.
I do know that Roland did not shoot all the shots in his record group on one day but returning day after day choosing conditions to shoot only when he felt he could be sure he was safely in the same condition.

Duplex were legal and used by a majority of competitors in the NRA (US) National Championships for Creedmoor and Midrange until about 2003
Duplex works and works well. It just is not as pure as All black….

[45 2.1]

I forgot half or most of what I think I know about Rowland. 45 2.1, if it was NOT shot with front rest, barrel in roller shoe clamp and rear bags I am not sure what it is you mean. Maybe we are talking about the same thing.

Not according to Rowlands account. A machine rest held the rifle. All the shooter had to do was put his hand behind the buttplate and pull the trigger. Read Rowlands account as that is what he said about it............

[wgr]

Paul Matthews says that for every grain of smokeless powder used it is like using 3 grains of black

[RMulhern]

If you study the history your trying to duplicate. You would find that the early leaders of long range accuracy actually tried and used triplex loads of different granulations of blackpowder. All of them used new technology to increase accuracy and ease of shooting. None of them went backwards................;-)

Thank you....I've studied the history now for around 50 years or so! But you see...I'm one of the OGANT......and don't care to do everything the 'easy way'!:veryconfu

[montana_charlie]

Sorry, that is Ned Roberts's articles....grammar, ya know..
I'm happy that grammar is important to you.
But, when the word ends in 's', you don't need the second 's'.

Example: Ned Roberts' articles ...

[twildman]

I'm happy that grammar is important to you.
But, when the word ends in 's', you don't need the second 's'.

Example: Ned Roberts' articles ...

bloody complicated language; next I will leave participles dangling....

Anyway, I had success in my Trapdoor with 5 grn 4759, balance Goex Ctg. black, lightly compressed. No enlarged flash holes or magnum primers were needed, and the bore did not foul up from shot to shot. I stopped using it so as to not have to scrub a 125-year-old barrel any more than necessary, and stuck with smokeless.

[Chill Wills]

Not according to Rowlands account. A machine rest held the rifle. All the shooter had to do was put his hand behind the buttplate and pull the trigger. Read Rowlands account as that is what he said about it............

45 2.1”
Well, I did say I could not remember well and so you did cause me to go back and read one account. There are other accounts. That will be for another day.
Check out the two * lines near the bottom.
Quoting some things from John Dutcher "Ballard, The Great American Single Shot".

---------------------------------------------------------------
Rowland's Record Group
Boulder, Colorado.
May 16, 1901
Rowland's record group was 10 consecutive shots into .722 of an inch at 200 yards.

The rifle was a muzzle-loaded .32-40 Pope/Ballard.
The duplex load was 3 grains No. 1 DuPont smokeless, 7 1/2 U.M.C. primers, with the rest of the case filled with Fg Hazard's black powder.
Bullets were cast 1-10 alloy. Bullets were weighed to a tenth-grain and primers were also weighed.
*Rowland shot the rifle from a Stevens/Pope machine rest.
*Dutcher also believes the target was made in one day.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All black has a place as does duplex and smokeless. I would hate to be without any of the three.

[John Boy]

Chill, and let's not forget Harry Pope's 200yd offhand 100 shot record at Walnut Hill using his 33-40 rifle. Unfortunately, have never seen what his powder charge was accomplishing this feat

[45 2.1]

45 2.1”
Well, I did say I could not remember well and so you did cause me to go back and read one account. There are other accounts. Yes, there probably are. I believe the one I read was a narative by Rowland himself, but thats been quite awhile and I don't remember what book either. Seems like it was consecutive days IIRC. That will be for another day.
Check out the two * lines near the bottom.
Quoting some things from John Dutcher "Ballard, The Great American Single Shot".

---------------------------------------------------------------
Rowland's Record Group
Boulder, Colorado.
May 16, 1901
Rowland's record group was 10 consecutive shots into .722 of an inch at 200 yards.

The rifle was a muzzle-loaded .32-40 Pope/Ballard.
The duplex load was 3 grains No. 1 DuPont smokeless, 7 1/2 U.M.C. primers, with the rest of the case filled with Fg Hazard's black powder.
Bullets were cast 1-10 alloy. Bullets were weighed to a tenth-grain and primers were also weighed.
*Rowland shot the rifle from a Stevens/Pope machine rest.
*Dutcher also believes the target was made in one day.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All black has a place as does duplex and smokeless. I would hate to be without any of the three.

I'd have to agree on the powders also. Any is OK............

[45 2.1]

Thank you....I've studied the history now for around 50 years or so! But you see...I'm one of the OGANT......and don't care to do everything the 'easy way'!:veryconfu

I wouldn't expect anything otherwise. Just keep in mind that the narrow period of history your living was improved on, by the masters themselves. They didn't stand still. I doubt anyone here could match Pope or the others leaders in their field. There are improvements you could do within your area, but I don't see them talked about.

[RMulhern]

I wouldn't expect anything otherwise. Just keep in mind that the narrow period of history your living was improved on, by the masters themselves. They didn't stand still. I doubt anyone here could match Pope or the others leaders in their field. There are improvements you could do within your area, but I don't see them talked about.

"There are improvements you could do within your area, but I don't see them talked about."

You need to 'expound' upon that statement at length!

[45 2.1]

"There are improvements you could do within your area, but I don't see them talked about."

You need to 'expound' upon that statement at length!

OK, but you need to post the limits of where you'll go. I assume your trying to duplicate the long range international matches held at Seagirt and Bisley. Be specific on your use of naked and patched boolits.

[RMulhern]

OK, but you need to post the limits of where you'll go. I assume your trying to duplicate the long range international matches held at Seagirt and Bisley. Be specific on your use of naked and patched boolits.

I'm not trying to duplicate anything; rather I have probably shot some better groups over the years than the ODG did to my own satisfaction! I don't shoot GG bullets....only paper patch!;-)

[Red River Rick]

.....................:popcorn:


RRR

[45 2.1]

I'm not trying to duplicate anything; rather I have probably shot some better groups over the years than the ODG did to my own satisfaction! I don't shoot GG bullets....only paper patch!;-)


Since your happy with your groups, then you probably don't want to know anything else. Thats OK with me and no arguement. When you can make all the holes touch each other, maybe you'll be there.

[twildman]

From my reading of the older shooting literature, I beleive that the old timers understood "machine rest" to be pretty much what we would now recognize as bench-rest shooting, with mechanically adjustible rests, as opposed to a fixture that holds the gun without human contact, ie the Ransom Rest for handguns.

[RMulhern]

Since your happy with your groups, then you probably don't want to know anything else. Thats OK with me and no arguement. When you can make all the holes touch each other, maybe you'll be there.

Well I really don't need ALL the holes to touch; maybe only 4 like here from 1000 yds.!

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6164/6219369308_d0237eb2fd_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/6219369308/)
10shots (http://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/6219369308/) by Sharps45 2 7/8 (http://www.flickr.com/people/61286670@N08/), on Flickr

[Red River Rick]

Well................I don't think you could ask for anything better then that!

Nice shootin Rick............and without a DUPLEX Load..........RIGHT?

RRR

[Chill Wills]

Well I really don't need ALL the holes to touch; maybe only 4 like here from 1000 yds.!



MAN! that is some good shooting! A guy that can shoot that well really shoud shoot some Creedmoor matches some time!

I know, lots of good reasons not to....
Nice shooting!

[Lead pot]

You cant stay on a target like Ricks at that range using 10 different sizes of sizing dies to get a bullet to fit and using teflon tape, masking tape and ground up pop corn for fillers because the recoil is to rough for you and no need for duplexing.
Just use the right bullet out of a mould of good quality that is the proper length and diameter and you will get that job done using the real good quality black powder.

[RMulhern]

Well................I don't think you could ask for anything better then that!

Nice shootin Rick............and without a DUPLEX Load..........RIGHT?

RRR

No duplex!

[RMulhern]

MAN! that is some good shooting! A guy that can shoot that well really shoud shoot some Creedmoor matches some time!

I know, lots of good reasons not to....
Nice shooting!

No sir....I got the competition sting outa my system a long time ago in NRA HP and shooting with the Army Team! I only have to drive 500 yards to shoot 1000 yards...or more and I don't have to prove anything to anyone other than myself! I'll be 72 come March and my endeavor these days is to convey my shooting knowledge to my grandkids which are all interested! Some are already asking about when can they shoot the BIG RIFLE?? I'll just close by saying "THESE RIFLES ARE A HOOT TO SHOOT!"

[Larry Gibson]

RMulhern

You're confusing 45 2.1 with facts.....how can he do his "I'm the master, you're the grasshopper" routine when you post shooting like that[smilie=l:

Larry Gibson

[RMulhern]

RMulhern

You're confusing 45 2.1 with facts.....how can he do his "I'm the master, you're the grasshopper" routine when you post shooting like that[smilie=l:

Larry Gibson

Larry

If you'll look closely at that target you'll see that it's a 98! The inner plate is 20" in diameter...same size as the 10 ring on the Creedmoor paper target. There's one hit that just 'scratched' the 10 ring plate at the 2 o/clock area...then glanced off into what would be the 9 ring. This was shot with my 50 2 1/2 using 720 gr. cast bullets. That day I was just testing the vertical of the load. Had about a 8-12 mph wind from the 9 o/clock side but I didn't add any windage as I was just interested in seeing the vertical deviation. The best I have been able to shoot at this distance with the 45 2 7/8 is a 97. There are probably many LR shooters within the ranks of BPCR Creedmoor shooting that can do this so as far as I'm concerned....the target isn't a reflection of my shooting abiliity; rather it's a testimony to those that believe that paper patch bullets aren't accurate....of which I was one....at one time!!:smile: What's REALLY A HOOT...is that I can position my spotting scope when I'm shooting prone off my shoulder...and at the shot roll over....look through the scope and watch the slug slam into the target!! THAT'S A HOOT!!:p:p

[Larry Gibson]

Darn fine shooting!!!! Absolutely no doubt about that!

Larry Gibson

[45 2.1]

Not too bad for a charcoal burner.......... about 1.3 MOA at long range. Since you say you use bull barrels and like 34" ones, i'd say thats a heavy rifle... nice and comfortable to shoot..... and a Hoot at that. Not much different results than some of the jornals of the buffalo hunters. Anyway its good shooting providing you count all your shots, not just 4. Way to much of that kind of thing nowadays anyway.

If Larry Gibson could can and sell his sarcasm, he would be rich. :mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen: Trouble is no one buys it. :p

[MT Chambers]

The gen. rec. formula is 10% 4759 and 90% Black Powder....My use shows that it is much cleaner burning, requiring much less cleaning while shooting, up to 100 fps more, more noise and recoil. In my testing over the years, I can't say that it has averaged any better accuracy, and you still have to clean your gun when you're done, and no need for a blow tube. Your results may vary!

[swheeler]

Well I really don't need ALL the holes to touch; maybe only 4 like here from 1000 yds.!

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6164/6219369308_d0237eb2fd_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/6219369308/)
10shots (http://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/6219369308/) by Sharps45 2 7/8 (http://www.flickr.com/people/61286670@N08/), on Flickr

Very good sir!

[RMulhern]

And I would add that any rifle....in most competitions that could hold 1 1/2 to 2.0 MOA would win....most events!:smile:;)

[swheeler]

RMulhern

You're confusing 45 2.1 with facts.....how can he do his "I'm the master, you're the grasshopper" routine when you post shooting like that[smilie=l:

Larry Gibson

You funny guy GI[smilie=l:

[Chill Wills]

And I would add that any rifle....in most competitions that could hold 1 1/2 to 2.0 MOA would win....most events!:smile:;)

I would add that in most Creedmoor competitions, just keeping all your shots on the paper for two days will place you high and you keeping then all in the black would win. Groups like yours are shot in the calm. Rarely are match conditions so friendly.

[RMulhern]

I would add that in most Creedmoor competitions, just keeping all your shots on the paper for two days will place you high and you keeping then all in the black would win. Groups like yours are shot in the calm. Rarely are match conditions so friendly.

Chill Wills

So true! I've shot on several occasions at Raton in the Palma events and yes....the winds do blow!! And change directions quite regularly!!:veryconfu:coffee:

[Oyeboten]

I was experimenting with Duplex Loads for .38 Special.

I had to leave off before I was through the methodical sequence, but, it was so far so good anyway.

Straight BP was providing a nice even series of FPSs ( same Bullet in each ) with three different Barrel lengths.

The sequence of Duplex Charges likewise, showed entirely perfect graduated increases in Velocity according to the proportion.

Proportion of Smokeless ( 'UNIQUE' ) I was using ranged from 1 to 5 percent by weight.

I forget now the figures, but each 1 percent increas in Smokeless showed a steady and even co-responding increase in FPS.

BP was 3 F 'Goex'.

Powders were mixed together for a uniform distribution of the Smokeless.

[BPCR Bill]

Hang Fire, yes I shoot duplex BP reloads but a little history first: The match shooters around the turn of the century used a different 'smokeless' powder as we know it today. That 'smokeless' powder was Dupont's Lesmok and Kings Powder which both were semi smokeless powder with charcoal mixed with nitrocellulose , sulfur and potassium nitrate.
This duplex's purpose was to increase the velocity for reloads used in matches, specifically 200yd Schuetzen matches. These shooters also used straight semi smokeless rounds
Later on, real smokeless came into being such as Lightning that was pure nitrocellulose based and the use of duplex and semi smokeless rounds waned going up into the 1930's. Remington factory semi smokeless Lesmok ceased around pre- WWII. Kings semi smokeless in the early 1930's IIRC. I have a box of Remington 22lr rounds that have a 1939 birth date

OK, as for duplexing the rule is: use a smokeless powder that by its self does not generate a pressure for a given charge & bullet weight greater than the SAMMI MAXIMUM pressure for that caliber using straight black powder. Then use 5 -10% smokeless of the black powder charge and reduce the black powder by that 5-10% ... dependent on the smokeless powder psi or CUP

The warning caveat: Duplexing with real smokeless powder on the market today is not recommended for any reloader unless they have substantial smokeless powder internal ballistics knowledge for the powder that is intended to be used

I am aware of a Pedersoli 45 2 7/8" 74 Sharps that was destroyed with a duplex load of 12 grains Red Dot and 2F Goex. The block held, but the barrel and reciever ring, along with the forearm, were blown all the way to East Jesus. A miracle that the shooter only had some wood splinters in his forearm.

Regards,
Bill

[Oyeboten]

Hi Bill,


You relay -



I am aware of a Pedersoli 45 2 7/8" 74 Sharps that was destroyed with a duplex load of 12 grains Red Dot and 2F Goex. The block held, but the barrel and reciever ring, along with the forearm, were blown all the way to East Jesus. A miracle that the shooter only had some wood splinters in his forearm.


Misadventure of course may occur when an operative makes errors in loading with Smokeless alone, and, we have all seen images or in some cases, first hand examples, of Guns which were damaged or burst in various ways.


With any Duplex, one would do well to bear in mind the percentage of Gas or elastic pressure as matters evolve, which each Powder is liable to generate individually, and, for these, when combined, to remain within sensible limits for the Arm in question, of course!


I imaging the poor Pedersoli, with the charge described, was given quite a ways over a 'Proof Load', and, obviously, it did not like it.

[bigted]

so the question i am most interested in has withered n dried up...which is of course...when using straight bp for the charge...what was the outcome when using a charge of 4f powder for the duplex and the remaining charge being 2f or 1f bp? id do thid experiment...and prolly will someday...but ill have to send off for a can of 4f powder specifically for this experiment as i dont use 4f in anything else in my current stock of guns

this would interest me in that it would remain 100% blackpowder but maybe with a cleaner burn???

DO TELL PLEASE

seems like we get the posturing and pee contests that confudiates the question at hand...still n all it is a hoot to read as long as im not the one in the middle...ha....oh n happy x-mas eberbuddy

[ss40_70]

bigted
i tried duplexing 10 grains 4fg goex under 60 ffg in my 45-70 about 10 years ago
i didnt exactly try enough to say i had conclusive results but in the 50 rounds i tried fouling wasnt any less then a strieght ffg load and went from a dry fouling to a hard / crusty fouling
acuracy was a toss up it didnt shoot nearly as good groups as my normal loads do but then i could have been having a bad day shooting .. i never tried again to see

[Chill Wills]

Chill Wills

So true! I've shot on several occasions at Raton in the Palma events and yes....the winds do blow!! And change directions quite regularly!!:veryconfu:coffee:

Rick, I reread the last post I made and I can see how you might have been offended. I won’t try to explain what my comment was intended to be, I rather express that I wish I had not written it in haste. Forums lack face to face and sometimes poor writing offends. I was not my intent to offend you, Sorry! No matter what, I always try to preserve everyone’s dignity.

Merry Christmas

[Chill Wills]

Ted, this is by no means the final word on BP with BP duplexing. I have and a number of my skilled BPCR friends have worked the 4F under the 1F kind of duplex and a lot of variations. No luck improving on one grade of black gunpowder. The better the brand helps a lot for sure. I hope you have some luck and fun trying it. Let me know.

Writings from history suggest the old dead guys came to the same end. A bit of smokeless makes a big difference.

SR-4759 IMR-3031 R-7 Powders in this class work well. Even very small charges work to clean up a load.

[blackpowder man]

I shoot duplex loads using a small charge of 4759 under goex ffg. I use it for target shooting and hunting in .38-55 and .45-70 and it doesn't require me to wipe or blow tube. I shoot as many as I want and clean when I'm done. It is very accurate at the ranges that I have used it. It has not worked for me in .45 revolvers mainly because I don't have a mold for a boolit that holds enough lube. I would like to find time to make some BPCR matches and for those it would require wiping and blowing like everyone else.

[kokomokid]

Makes you think a magnum primer might burn cleaner than a muffled pistol primer?

[Litl Red 3991]

I am aware of a Pedersoli 45 2 7/8" 74 Sharps that was destroyed with a duplex load of 12 grains Red Dot and 2F Goex. The block held, but the barrel and reciever ring, along with the forearm, were blown all the way to East Jesus. A miracle that the shooter only had some wood splinters in his forearm.

Regards,
Bill

Jezus, am I the only one who shivered when seeing "12gr of Red Dot" ???

[Sharpsman]

If you study the history your trying to duplicate. You would find that the early leaders of long range accuracy actually tried and used triplex loads of different granulations of blackpowder. All of them used new technology to increase accuracy and ease of shooting. None of them went backwards................;-)

Yes....BUT NOT SP!!

[bigted]

according to a few articles from yesteryear ... and ... a couple old vintage Lyman loading manuals ... yes "Smokeless Powder" for the duplex

:grin: ... :wink: ... 8-) ... :drinks: ... [smilie=s: ... [smilie=1:

[kens]

I have used various duplex black powder loads.
Most common is a partial charge of FFFFg in the breech (for easier ignition) and the balance of the load FFFg. This was for long rifle hunting applications.
I also used holy black as a cartridge filler when loading reduced loads in large capacity cases. An example of this is a reduced load of Rel7 with a filler of FFFg to fill the case, in a .375 H&H.