Another convert

[44man]

My friend wants another BFR and was thinking of the .500 S&W or .500 JRH. He came to shoot and I let him blow up water bottles at 100 yards with my BFR 45-70. It scared him until he shot it. He could not believe how pleasant it is.
I let him shoot the JRH and two shots was enough! :bigsmyl2: He had big eyes and handed it back to me. :veryconfu
He went home, ordered a 45-70, 10", brass, bullets, etc even though I told him to come and cast.
He found the gun at Cheaper then Dirt for around $800 out the door with shipping.
Yes, I will make him cast REAL boolits! [smilie=s:

[Frank]

44man:

My friend wants another BFR and was thinking of the .500 S&W or .500 JRH. He came to shoot and I let him blow up water bottles at 100 yards with my BFR 45-70. It scared him until he shot it. He could not believe how pleasant it is.
I let him shoot the JRH and two shots was enough! He had big eyes and handed it back to me.
He went home, ordered a 45-70, 10", brass, bullets, etc even though I told him to come and cast.
He found the gun at Cheaper then Dirt for around $800 out the door with shipping.
Yes, I will make him cast REAL boolits!
On the convert, no surprise there. What happened to the water bottle? Did it spray?

[44man]

44man:

On the convert, no surprise there. What happened to the water bottle? Did it spray?
Oh yeah, water everywhere, soaked the boards I shoot at.

[Frank]

That's good shooting. I did that laying down Creedmore with the .475 once sighting in at 100 yds. I had 3 rounds left. First was to the right. Adjusted Matchdot. Next was to the left, so went back half. Next shot, bang, dead center. I aim right at it with the 2 moa dot.

[Frank]

Poor guys shoot at water bottles. Rich guys go on guided hunts and show their big animal. But which is the better shot?

[Whitworth]

Poor guys shoot at water bottles. Rich guys go on guided hunts and show their big animal. But which is the better shot?

Well, I've never seen anyone get buck fever (bear fever, elk fever, etc.) when shooting at a water bottle. Punching paper and plinking isn't the same thing as shooting game. I have known guys who shot targets well who went to pieces when they had an animal in their sights. Conversely, I have known hunters who weren't very good at target shooting.

[saz]

Poor guys shoot at water bottles. Rich guys go on guided hunts and show their big animal. But which is the better shot?


My thoughts exactly Frank!!!



44Man- I'm not sure of the JRH but I know the 500S&W is a HARD RECOILER! Not for the faint at heart. I would love to own a 45/70 someday......

[Whitworth]

My thoughts exactly Frank!!!



44Man- I'm not sure of the JRH but I know the 500S&W is a HARD RECOILER! Not for the faint at heart. I would love to own a 45/70 someday......

They recoil plenty hard, but it's nothing that can't be overcome. When we started load development with mine last year, we had some loads that pushed a 425 at 1,450 fps and they'd get your attention. But again, nothing that can't be overcome. Keep in mind that the BFR in .500 JRH is a whole lot lighter than the BFR in .500 Smith & Wesson, and the X-frame in .500 Smith.

[waksupi]

Well, I've never seen anyone get buck fever (bear fever, elk fever, etc.) when shooting at a water bottle. Punching paper and plinking isn't the same thing as shooting game. I have known guys who shot targets well who went to pieces when they had an animal in their sights. Conversely, I have known hunters who weren't very good at target shooting.

I have seen, and experienced target panic in competition. It does indeed exist.

[Frank]

Whitworth:

Conversely, I have known hunters who weren't very good at target shooting.
I also know hunters who aren't good at shooting. They can sneak up on the deer and say "boo" and surprise them. :)

[44man]

I have seen, and experienced target panic in competition. It does indeed exist.
Yes it sure does. Target panic can be far worse then buck fever and almost impossible to cure.
When you have a center hold and the bow or gun will not go off until you jerk off center, you have panic. It is worse then a flinch.
Buck fever is shaking from excitement and peeking at the shot, mostly before the gun goes off.
You need to shoot competition to see it. It is a mental thing that shooting at cans or for fun will not show up much.
How would any one fare if they had target panic, flinch and buck fever combined???? :violin:

[Whitworth]

How would any one fare if they had target panic, flinch and buck fever combined???? :violin:

At that point they should take up needle point.......:bigsmyl2:

[44man]

At that point they should take up needle point.......:bigsmyl2:
Yes, I agree. Those things are real and show up first with off hand shooting no matter what gun or bow.
I still see many flinch like crazy from a rest too.
I have control from a rest but if I told you I never flinch off hand or don't have target panic once in a while, I would be lying. Been there, done that and still do it. I am not some fantastic shot, I shoot no better then most here. My claim is to make some guns shoot better then I can shoot them. I still miss! :drinks:
I won most IHMSA shoots from Creedmore, I SUCKED off hand. The women shot circles around me off hand. Don't shoot against a good woman, they will put you in your place! [smilie=1:
Smile, take their hand, never, ever get angry and you are a sportsman. You were beaten fair. To be gracious will put you on top with everyone and make all a friend. Is there anything more important?
Hunting is the same. A clean miss is as wonderful as a clean kill. No harm done, laugh it off.
A good hit that does not work means you have work to do. It hurts, it happens, to keep doing the same thing over and over is wrong.
If you flinch or anything else, you need to work BEFORE shooting at any animal.
But deer do not fall over from muzzle blast, they want to live and are very, very tough.
Long ago I read about hunters out west that drove to a shot on mule deer. They would shoot and if the deer did not fall, they went to find another. Many dead deer were found but hunters thought the rifle was so powerful, the deer had to drop and if they didn't, it was a miss.

[waksupi]

I kind of suspect that what many think is a flinch, is really target panic.
I can not tell you how many times I was on the 1000 yard line, and did not have the strength to set off a 4 ounce trigger when I wanted the rifle to fire.

[subsonic]

Just supports my theory that shooting well takes a strong mind more than it takes a strong body.

But what would the challenge (point?) be if every shot was perfect with no practice?

[felix]

Happens in BR matches all the time. Many guns have 1/2 ounce triggers, and they feel like pressing tons when the flags indicate the shoot point for only fractions of a second. ... felix

[44man]

Happens in BR matches all the time. Many guns have 1/2 ounce triggers, and they feel like pressing tons when the flags indicate the shoot point for only fractions of a second. ... felix
Yeah, right. My light triggers seem to gain a million pounds and I wonder if my finger fell on the ground! :)

[jwp475]

Poor guys shoot at water bottles. Rich guys go on guided hunts and show their big animal. But which is the better shot?



To know the answer to that you would have to get them together on "Top Shot" to know the answer to that one

[Frank]

Originally Posted by Frank
Poor guys shoot at water bottles. Rich guys go on guided hunts and show their big animal. But which is the better shot?

jwp475:

To know the answer to that you would have to get them together on "Top Shot" to know the answer to that one

Right. Common sense tells us though the man who can hit the water bottle is probably it. Why? Because, it's a water bottle, not a 55 gallon drum. :mrgreen:

[saz]

They recoil plenty hard, but it's nothing that can't be overcome. When we started load development with mine last year, we had some loads that pushed a 425 at 1,450 fps and they'd get your attention. But again, nothing that can't be overcome. Keep in mind that the BFR in .500 JRH is a whole lot lighter than the BFR in .500 Smith & Wesson, and the X-frame in .500 Smith.

Yeah I guess it would- I just looked on magnums web page and the JRH is a full pound lighter than the 500 smith. I didnt realize there was that much weight in 1 inch less gun. The one load I got shooting well is 550 at 1275 and recoil is more of a quick shove back and up, rather than a sting to the hand, but I have shot some 440's at 1600 that are just plain painful. The scary thing is that the gun has the potential to push harder. My issue is that I just dont get along with the factory rubber grips very well.

I have been in the Army for 17 years and I have seen a lot of different levels of panic-from slight jitters to complete and total meltdown in the fetal position and I have learned that you can train it out of people/yourself, but you will never be completely rid of it. You just learn how to control it. Actually the person that has a grip on it and can control it is IMHO is the guy I would rather have with me as they tend to not get over confident and cocky and let their guard down. That little bit of panic/stress -whatever you want to call it- deep down keeps you focused. The guy that honestly has no fear scares me......

[Whitworth]

Originally Posted by Frank
Poor guys shoot at water bottles. Rich guys go on guided hunts and show their big animal. But which is the better shot?

jwp475:


Right. Common sense tells us though the man who can hit the water bottle is probably it. Why? Because, it's a water bottle, not a 55 gallon drum. :mrgreen:

Dang, is shooting game really like shooting a 55 gallon drum? :bigsmyl2:

[Frank]

A big animal is a large target. Do you dispute that? Antlers don't make it a better shot.

[waksupi]

A bigger animal just means there are more non-vital spots to hit.

[subsonic]

I think 55gal drum is a bit large, unless it's on end and we are talking very large game. Maybe from cd size to large pizza size vs the water bottle.

[Whitworth]

A big animal is a large target. Do you dispute that? Antlers don't make it a better shot.


I dispute your assertion that it is a big target. You still need to place the shot in the vitals which is more critical than punching paper because there are no consequences for wounding a target. Not so with an animal. Conditions in the field can make a shot difficult as well without known ranges and a good rest.

Why are you getting argumentative? Do you hunt, FranK? Just curious.

[Frank]

Whitworth:

Why are you getting argumentative? Do you hunt, FranK? Just curious.
I try to get out there, but end up spending my time helping others. I'm going to be working with someone's Freedom .454 soon. He only likes .45 Colt loads. Have you ever fired a Freedom?

[onceabull]

So the fellow who posts a pic of his trophy whatzit is 1:rich , or 2.Guided, or 3.Both ...??? What nonsense.... Onceabull

[Whitworth]

Whitworth:

Have you ever fired a Freedom?

Many times in a number of different calibers.

[waksupi]

So the fellow who posts a pic of his trophy whatzit is 1:rich , or 2.Guided, or 3.Both ...??? What nonsense.... Onceabull

By the given assumption, it must be said that all guides are bad shots. I never noticed that myself. Or does Frank assume that guides never hunt or shoot? The way you get to be a guide, is by being a good hunter, and a good shot.

[Frank]

oncebull:

Rich Vs.poor--Guided Vs. not
So the fellow who posts a pic of his trophy whatzit is 1:rich , or 2.Guided, or 3.Both ...??? What nonsense.... Onceabull
A lot of those shots from Africa take big bucks, and are no different than some kid shooting at cans with his revolver. Right? The other side of the fence makes it seem the farther the hunt is, the greater the accomplishment. It's kind of like the missionary who brags how he goes far away to feed the hungry, but looks at you with disgust when you point out, "You only go help the poor in faraway places because it brings more attention to yourself, but you should really be helping the people here at home. There are a lot of starving people here. You don't need to go to Tijuana or Haiti." It's the same phenomena. The distant hunter and the distant samaritan. Two high paid hypocrites.

Merry Christmas [smilie=p:

[waksupi]

Sounds like sour grapes from a non-hunter.

[saz]

Living where I have for the last few years, you get to know a few guides. Some reputable, some not, some local heros, and some are world renowned. Let me tell you this though, all of them can smell an inexperienced hunter and a poor shooter a mile away. These guys are the best of the best, and take their job VERY seriously.
Now take the average guy that hires a guide, they come from all different places. They are not all millionaires that just want a trophy, but there are some. There are people that come to Alaska to hunt, and depending on the animal they are required by the state to hire a guide. Not because they want to line the guide's pocket, it is to ensure adherance to the laws and because the terrain where some of those animals live is extremely UNFORGIVING! In other words, it is for the non-resident's own safety and game management.

[44man]

I can say for a fact that a deer at 100 yards is a very, very small looking thing. You need to be able to hit less then a gallon jug at 100 off hand before taking that kind of shot. If you get down to smaller targets it is better but I still hate the long range shot.
I never like to brag about long range, I have done it many times but a 20 yard shot is better to brag about. Each day hunting is different and at times I can hold steady but on other days a 30 yard shot can be hard. I can be so cold I would rather club the deer with the barrel.
But to brag at all is silly because that is not what hunting is about.
Unless I am confident, I don't shoot and if you knew how many deer walked that I would not shoot at, you would be surprised.
It is not a game for ego, it is a live animal.
Some will say they shot an animal at 280 yards with a .45 Colt, 4" barrel. If I was an outfitter, I would never allow that. Think about it, maybe 6' or more drop and no velocity or energy left.
I can hit targets to 500 meters with a revolver, some need over a 30' holdover but I have never been able to make any revolver effective on game past 100 yards, that is my limit but ONLY when I can do it. 99% of the time it will be NO!
Large tough animals need MORE penetration and energy and they might be easier to hit at long range, is that an excuse to shoot too far? Some have magic revolvers that gain energy as animals get larger.
My deer with the .500 JRH was too far at 100 yards in the thick so I fooled her into thinking I was another deer. She walked to me and I shot her at 30 yards. Can I brag about the shot? No, but can I brag about my hunting---can you fool deer?
If you shoot a moose at 10 yards with a revolver, you are my kind of hunter. Don't give me a 300 yard shot, you just might be stupid.
Shooting animals is a far cry from paper targets.

[TCLouis]

All boils down to a tagline someone used yo have in one of the forums . . .

"Aim Small, Hit Small"

[Whitworth]

Hey my pockets aren't deep, but I hunt as often as humanly possible. The range offers a completely controlled environment. Hunting, you never know what you will encounter. You don't need a big balance in your bank account to hunt.......

[white eagle]

Hey my pockets aren't deep, but I hunt as often as humanly possible. The range offers a completely controlled environment. Hunting, you never know what you will encounter. You don't need a big balance in your bank account to hunt.......

I agree but you need a balance
shooting off hand is a last resort ...I find a rest of some sort no matter what kind ...
steady controlled shot is always better... I can't remember the last time I shot without a rest / rifle,handgun or shotgun I always find a steady position to shoot from without it I pass on the shot
:Fire:

[Whitworth]

I agree but you need a balance
shooting off hand is a last resort ...I find a rest of some sort no matter what kind ...
steady controlled shot is always better... I can't remember the last time I shot without a rest / rifle,handgun or shotgun I always find a steady position to shoot from without it I pass on the shot
:Fire:

You don't have to shoot offhand necessarily, but you need to find a field expedient rest and you don't have the luxury of taking your time setting up your shot. In other words, expect the unexpected.

[44man]

I do not have a rest in my tree stands and none when walking either. Off hand or nothing. 99% of my shots are off hand and many on moving deer.
I don't need a crutch because I practice. Whit and I can usually hold 6" off hand at 100 yards and both of us have hit little water bottles that far. Shots are called, hits or misses. We will tell you where the boolit went.
But, if I can't hold right, I don't shoot.
On the ground I have the ability to bring deer to me. I have no need to shoot far. It doesn't work all the time but I don't care.
The thing is that to set up from a rest here means no shots. It is rare to find or use any kind of a rest.
We have no food plots so you can take an hour for a shot. We can't glass and class bucks. We are not in a house with rests. If I say that is a "cull" deer and needs to be removed, it will be a lie. I AM IN THE WILD, NOT A DEER FARM.
Hunt bison on a farm where the owner takes you to a herd and says "shoot that one".
Hunt Africa where a PH sets sticks for you, not with deer here, you get what you get and better be ready.
I would say 30 seconds is all you have.

[Frank]

44man:

Hunt bison on a farm where the owner takes you to a herd and says "shoot that one".
What happens if you say, OK, and shoot the other one? :confused:

[44man]

44man:

What happens if you say, OK, and shoot the other one? :confused:
You might be in trouble! [smilie=l:
I was trying to say everyone has different situations. But here deer come from any direction at any time and are usually close. You are not able to move around and are exposed in the open. My tree stands have no bars, they are for archery. We hunt a pass through area between the fields way up on top and where deer like to bed. The farms are full of hunters so deer are super cautious and move steady.
Even when I hunt from the ground, there are only two spots I can shoot and deer can be through them before I can even cock the gun. They there, here and then gone.
I have one friend I always laugh at. He has never killed a deer here, he spooks them every single time. :holysheep