plastic sabots

[calkar]

I have noticed a pattern lately or lack there of Ha Ha!, that as I am working on loads at the local range and I see a shooter with a muzzel loader that cant hit the whole paper target at 50yrd consistantly. That shooter is always using plastic sabots.

[corey012778]

nothing wrong with shooting sabots. I have one muzzleloader an knight usak 50cal inline that has 4 or 5 different loads with sabots. I have 5shots touching at 50yrds with everyone of them. sounds like he has some other issue other then the sabots. can also do an happy for me 4in group at 100yrds.

needless to say, I am fielding two muzzleloaders this year with full bore home cast.

[calkar]

Its been more than just a he. More like a half a dozen he's. and 4" at 100 is not good!

[corey012778]

you just said shooter so I thought it was just one person. what type of guns?

if inlines, just throwing 3pellets down and hoping for the best. gods knows i see that all the time.

[calkar]

Yep, mostly inlines. Cant keep em in a dinner plate at 50, but there good to go.

[stronics]

I own a couple better inlines and I would be happy if I got 4" at 50yds. I've tried several different bullets and loads and pretty much lost interest in them. So far maybe 4" at 30yds.
David

[corey012778]

4" at 100 is not good!
that gun was an brush gun. (retired it this year for hunting) I did not take shots out past 75yrds. my 45cal is at 2in at 100yrds last time I had out that far shooting lee improved minnies. I ran out of time before the season started to try to get it smaller.

[excess650]

Like everything else, they gotta fit! I have a TC sidelock with 1-48" twist and it shoots like a laser at 50 yards with sabots and 240-270gr 44cal slugs(BP and wiping between shots). My Omega will almost always shoot sub 1.5" at 100 yards with 250gr in sabots and BH209.

[phaessler]

With the amount of components available, it like with all reloading , has become a matter of combinations. Some sabots work better in others, bore size matters, everyone has to go faster too.
I shoot an older 50cal CVA inline, with either 70gnVol BH209 or two 777 pellets, a Harvester sabot and a .429 sized cast bullet of 265gn, gets me a repeatable 1" group at 100yds, wiping between shots, and dry patch wiping after I load it.

[wgr]

if your shooting pellets might go to loose powder

[Underclocked]

What you are witnessing is guys that don't have a clue about what they are doing and probably couldn't shoot a better group with the best rifle you own. The right load in a good rifle using sabots and properly matched bullets can, in the right hands, easily shoot under MOA. And there are LOTS of good inlines made these days.

Did you happen to notice what those guys were shooting, aside from being inlines?

I assure you it is the operator(s) that is causing your observation. Tell those guys to go to the inline forum at Modern Muzzleloading if they want to learn something. There is some great reference material there so far as matching sabot to bullet and to bore. Lots of great info free for the taking. They also will not be harassed for choosing an inline.

[Maven]

I have noticed a pattern lately or lack there of Ha Ha!, that as I am working on loads at the local range and I see a shooter with a muzzel loader that cant hit the whole paper target at 50yrd consistantly. That shooter is always using plastic sabots.

My club, Marbletown Sportsmen, Inc., sponsors BP shoots at least twice a year. In order to boost participation from both our members and the public, we have opened the events to all types of ML's, including scoped inlines using saboted bullets. Our last shoot was won by one of our club members using a scoped inline with saboted bullets and some kind of pellets for the propellant. From what I've seen, those saboted bullets are unbelievably accurate. Btw, 2nd place was taken by a shooter with a FL rifle (patched RB), while my friend and I took 3rd place (tie score) with patched RB's in caplocks.

[Crawdaddy]

Sabots can be shot with extreme accuracy. You have to experiment and find out what shoots well out of your particular gun. That includes bullet, sabot, powder and charge.

I get very close to MOA with mine.

The other part of the equation is does the shooter know what he is doing? Is he getting the bullet seated all the way down every time? Is the barrel clean?

To get good groups with muzlleloaders you have to be consistent. Everything must be the same every shot.

[jonas302]

Yeah noboby ever kills deer with a sabot lol and 4" at 100 is good for any hunting rifle

[Boerrancher]

When my scoped inline goes to shooting 2 inch 5 shot groups at 100 yards with saboted 250 gr 452 dia loads, I will pull the scope off of it and throw it in the creek. If I do everything right, every time it will cut bullet holes. Doing everything the same is the name of the game. Slightly more or slightly less pressure when seating the sabot and bullet, not swabbing the bore properly or at all, or any number of variations can cause these guns to not shoot well, and 99.9% of the time it is the shooter and not the gun.

Best wishes,

Joe

[DODGEM250]

The he(s) is probably using 240 grain boolits with 150 grains of powder...

[subsonic]

I think something has changed with the sabots. I had more trouble than ever with them and a local gun shop has heard a lot of the same story from other customers.

The guys at the shop think that it has to do with newer m/ls having looser bores to reduce pressure with the 150gr loads and new powders. I disagree.

[subsonic]

I am trying to get away from sabots. They add one more variable that I can't control or even sort the good from the bad. Most seem good, but I'd say out of 20 sabots, 10 are consistent, 5 are close, and 5 are junk.

[DODGEM250]

The reason why I state the 240 gr bullet / 150 grain powder theory is that it has been proven on a few outings to the range. I have a buddy who has insisted on using the 240/150 method in his CVA guns and I have always used a 295/100 method. He was trying to sight his guns in and he was blaming his inconsistent issues on everything but the actual problem, that being, his charge is too much for his little bullet.

I told him to "just humor me" so, I told him to only use 2 777 pellets instead of 3 and just shoot 5 rounds and see what happens, I'll pay you back for the wasted bullets (CVA PowerBelts 245gr) he shoots the 5 at 100 grains and ends up being totally impressed with my suggestion. He went from shooting 6-8 inch groups to shooting 2-3 inch groups in 5 test shots.

I explained him that having 150 grains of powder behind that 245 bullet was like putting a 454 motor in a VW bug, you tap the gas, and it wants to go everywhere but straight down the line.

Now he understands why I use 100 grains of loose powder. So does his father, brother, 2 nephews, and a few other guys that I don't know. As I explained, just because your gun can handle the 150 mag loading, does not mean you can use the load effectively. 150 grains of powder will not make you shoot farther or straighter, it is just the maximum recommended load.

With all that said, I prefer the heavier bullets (295 - 340) with the 100 grain charge for hard hitting power, not the big load with a small bullet. I am also not impressed with the CVA powerbelt bullets, I prefer a bullet that stays together long enough to go out the other side.

The bullet I have attached below is a CVA PowerBelt in 245 grain from my buddies deer recovery just last week. The bullet goes in, and stops while dissolving to a final mass of 98 grains (where is the other 147 grains of lead ? In your meat, chew carefully). His little bullets get lost in the internals and never make it out the other side due to lost kinetic energy. Though he is hooked on the easy loading of the PowerBelt, he has made his only final decision to upgrade to a 295 PB next season since he has been able to recover several of his bullets at this point, he now understands what I have been trying to tell him. Hit hard or track for too many yards.

[DODGEM250]

Also on the direct issue of plastic sabots. This photo is one I took of a comparison of the sabots I had been using versus the ones I now use with my own cast ML bullets. The with of the petal is what you have to watch for. The green sabot is a standard Hornady / Knight green .50 and the one I use is a Harvester / Knight black .50 The sabots from Harvester (crush rib) has a 50% less width than the old green hard plastic Hornady. Both are 50 cal, but, the Harvester sabot is a hair thinner, less bulge on the sabot, and provides better proven accuracy to my shooting tests.

[Crawdaddy]

I swear by the Harvester crushed rib sabot. They produce the best accuracy in my gun. I like using heavy, longer bullets so I use the longer sabot.

I agree with Dodge also. Reduce that charge a little. I use 82 grs of BH with a 463 gr boolit at get around 1500 fps. Both deer I shot were pass throughs. One quartered through the deer starting at the neck and exited the rib cage. Both fell in their tracks.

This same load shoots very near MOA.

[DODGEM250]

I swear by the Harvester crushed rib sabot. They produce the best accuracy in my gun. I like using heavy, longer bullets so I use the longer sabot.

I agree with Dodge also. Reduce that charge a little. I use 82 grs of BH with a 463 gr boolit at get around 1500 fps. Both deer I shot were pass throughs. One quartered through the deer starting at the neck and exited the rib cage. Both fell in their tracks.

This same load shoots very near MOA.


Exactly. This is my best setup. With 100 grains of triple 7 (currently) I will go back to the Pyrodex RS, when this last bit of 777 is gone, this 777 powder is some dirty stuff. The spike I took last week was with this bullet / powder combo at about 45 yards, but, it took out both front shoulders at a right hand quartering to me.

[phaessler]

Also on the direct issue of plastic sabots. This photo is one I took of a comparison of the sabots I had been using versus the ones I now use with my own cast ML bullets. The with of the petal is what you have to watch for. The green sabot is a standard Hornady / Knight green .50 and the one I use is a Harvester / Knight black .50 The sabots from Harvester (crush rib) has a 50% less width than the old green hard plastic Hornady. Both are 50 cal, but, the Harvester sabot is a hair thinner, less bulge on the sabot, and provides better proven accuracy to my shooting tests.

Please know or note though, that the sabots are color coded for the bore dia./projectile dia.
The "green" are typical a .50cal/.430" combination and the black are a .50cal/.45" projectile.
Thus the petals would need to be different. Notable differences to include in any component selection, are poylmer durometer(hardness of the plastic), surface finish ( some are notably slick, wether thru a superior mold finish, or by the left over release agent), and the shape of the gas seal/cup on the bottom.
Alot has been written about this subject, and as stated here earlier, whatever works for you and pour ML. Sort of like Fords and Chevys...
I spent a good part of last summer getting my inline better, have tried over 12 different types of sabot/bullet combination, all types of BP, and substitutes, loose, sticks, pellets,primers, primer adapters to use boxer primers,modifying the breech plug/vent linerand etc. Not to mention all the projectiles available.
These things can be a picky as a bench rest rifle if you want to pull out all the stops.
Just my 0.02..
Pete

[phaessler]

I swear by the Harvester crushed rib sabot. They produce the best accuracy in my gun. I like using heavy, longer bullets so I use the longer sabot.

I agree with Dodge also. Reduce that charge a little. I use 82 grs of BH with a 463 gr boolit at get around 1500 fps. Both deer I shot were pass throughs. One quartered through the deer starting at the neck and exited the rib cage. Both fell in their tracks.

This same load shoots very near MOA.

Notably in a lot of inlines does the crushed rib shoot well, an over looked factor for some is the "loading pressure", or force on the ramrod when you load it , I have found and measured it a bathroom scale , and lighter was better in my two rifles.
[talk about strange looks at the range when you show up with a scale]

I also found while BH209 shot well most sabot/bullet combinations paid the price when loaded over 100gns, the sabots blow-up. Thus proving slower might be better.