Amish girl shot?

[Charlie Two Tracks]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-faith/homicide-ruled-in-death-of-girl-15-shot-in-head-while-riding-in-amish-buggy-in-ohio/2011/12/20/gIQABz7w6O_story.html
I can't figure this out. A mile and an half?

[Alvarez Kelly]

He shot more or less straight up into the air...

[ph4570]

I cannot imagine the probability number for the occurrence. In any case a very sad event.

[bruce drake]

Another unfortunate reason why you always need to know where every bullet goes. It would have been better for everyone if he just blew a hole in his lawn with the powder charge than what tragically occurred.

Bruce

[leadman]

We had a young lady named Shanen killed here many years ago by the same act of an irresponsible fool.
The article I read on this said it was accidental. I believe I would call it negligent. If you fire a shot in the air it is going to come down somewhere. Unfortunately another person has died due to this act.

[calkar]

shooting straight up into the air particularly makes it almost impossible to injure someone 2,640 yards away. This needs to be investigated by some group with sense. A question I wonder is would a projectile of .45 to .58 cal. have a terminal velocity on a free fall or would it just ring your bell?

[3006guns]

Hatcher's Notebook has an entire chapter called "Bullets from the Sky" in which the U.S. Army conducted vertical shooting tests using the standard 30-06. One of the conclusions, backed up by the math, was that the projectile would fall base first and although would cause an injury, it would most likely NOT be life threatning.

Not saying this is impossible, but Jeez......a mile and a half? From a muzzle loader? I agree with the post above, this needs to be investigated by qualified ballistic technicians and not just the Sheriff's Office.

[Jim]

A year os so back, Myth Busters did a section on vertical shots. They fired, I think, eight rounds from a Garand in a bracket that held the barrel truly vertical. They recovered(again, I think) 4 rounds and all the rounds had impacted on their sides and were about two inches deep in the desert floor.

[gandydancer]

this is so sad. and I am sorry but I don't buy it. I have been shooting muzzies all my life from the time I was 8 years old with my dad. and any rifle shot stright up in the air and then go 1.5 miles away I would have to see it my self & I don't care if its a 338 lapua at an angle maybe? a cap & ball? no way. I used to try shooting my TC hawkin in 45 cal back in the 80's across the bay from calais maine in to the mud flats 3/4's of a mile away in to canada useing 100 graines of FFG black powder even tried 110 grains no way in to the water I forget the weight of the round ball. tried it with a ruger # 1 45/70 405 factory round. no way. into the water. a few years ago a new york man on the 4th of july fired his 303 brit at about 45 dagree angle and hit a man 1 mile away working on his roof the bullet knocked him off of the roof I think the fall killed him. took them three years to find the shooter. I think that little girl was a target. forgive my spelling. GD

[starmac]

Well I didn't see anywhere it said he shot straight up,and the ballistic test should till if it came from the gun. my 54 caliber bullets are 435 grain,and I sure wouldn't want some one to drop one out of an airplane on my head. I have no doubt it would penetrate my head(and it's been said to be hard). I don't however believe anything fired out of a muzzle loader traveled 1 1/2 miles. But I have never seen or heard of any test to see how far they would actually go.

A 45/70 if I remember right with a 405 grain slug drops 29 feet in a thousand yards.

[waksupi]

Definitely wasn't a round ball. Max range for them is about 800 yards.
People shooting the inlines with sabots and such, don't realize they are shooting a long range rifle, like a buffalo gun. A mile and a half is still quite a stretch, I'd have to see more proof.

[MtGun44]

NOT straight up in the air. Probably fired at a 45 deg angle or so. If you shoot straight up,
Hatcher has proven that the rounds are harmless when they return to earth, barely denting
wood.

More to this story than is being told, and he is lying to cover something.

Bill

[gandydancer]

its muzzleloading season here in virginia for deer right now I wonder if it is where the girl was killed?? GD

[starmac]

It will be pretty easy for them to come up with the approximate trajectory of the projectile when it hit her.

I seem to remember reading that a penny dropped from the top of iirc the empire state building would kill you if it hit right. I have no doubt that a heavy slug would. I would not even want to be hit by one that was thrown.

[starmac]

Another thing to think about, is the article said about a mile and a half. I have many times had people give me directions and their mile be way closer to a quarter mile or even three miles. If it was across some woods,I could see where the estimation of the distance could have been way off.

[calkar]

The penny thing is bull and the distance is quoted from the county sheriff.

[Bad Water Bill]

It does seem stranger than fiction. It would take one heck of a shot to figure the drop, windage and movement of the carriage at a mile and a half at night. you must have have some very keen eyes and skill considering the young lady was sitting inside of the carriage. She may not have been completely hidden but unless a direct 180 position there is not much to see.

Either the shooter was a LOT closer or it just was her time.

Either way a sad thing for her family and at Christmas time.

[lbaize3]

I agree with Bad Water Bill. God's hand is in everything that happens. When it is your time you will be called Home.

My prayers go out to both the family of the young girl and to the man who fired the shot. May the Lord's Peace be upon them all.

[Reload3006]

It is a terrible tragedy for the Girls family. My prayers are with them. If she was killed from this mans muzzle loader he was much closer than a mile and a half. Or it was an act of God. I am just not buying it. Someone is covering something up for some reason. But a muzzle loader at a mile and a half is beyond belief for even the most gullible.

[KCSO]

If Mike V would chime in here he dd tests on max range of buffalo guns and I don't remember the figures at this time. I would guess that less than 45 degree angle with an inline would reach 1 1/2 miles and if I remember right at max range a 45-70 at Sandyhook still was considered lethal as it penetrated several pine boards.

Now as to the HUNTER and his negligence. Yes you should always hhave a reasonable idea where your bullet is going but in practice that is just not always possible. Several years ago i investigated a shooting where a hunter shot at a coyote runing away from him at 200 yards. The bullet, recovered from the mouth of a friend over a mile away. The bullet bounced off the frozen ground and went over a hill through a windshield and into the victim.

Negligence, the hunter was shooting a a suppposedly safe target into a hillside, he had no idea his friend had driven aroudt the hilll and had no idea that a richochet would travel over a mile and still hurt somone. Every time you hear a bullet richochet, every time you shooot and MISS your target this possibility is there.

Thsi was an unfortunate accident.

[wallenba]

It's hard to express how bad this makes me feel. The Amish work so hard to separate themselves from the evil, the crime and the destructive side of modern society. And yet, it reaches out, however unintended, to affect them from outside. Especially so near to Christmas.

[Char-Gar]

This past week near Edinburgh Texas about 50 miles from where I live, two boys were shot while trying out for basketball at their school. The school is surrounded by ranch land and some hunter/target shooters will firing away and hit these two boys. Both were seriously hurt and one may never walk again.

Earlier in the days, more bullets impacted on the school grounds.

There are many idiots with guns around these days.

[Charlie Two Tracks]

Many years ago I was out with a friend who had just gotten an AR-15. He was shooting at a tree and there was level ground behind it. The tree was only about 10" in diameter. I stopped him and told him to go look at that tree. The bullets were going right on through. He had never fired a rifle bigger than a .22 before and didn't realize just what he was shooting. I HATE any kind of regulations but sometimes a person needs to know what a bullet will do. Most are not raised around guns and really don't know just how powerful a round can be. Maybe a demonstration of what they are buying is needed. Another guy I know was going out into the timber and we were going to shoot into a bank. He saw a squirrel in a tree and fired a .30-30 at it. He missed and who knows where that bullet went. I hollered at him and left. Never went out with him again.

[firefly1957]

Prays for the family it is terrible to loose a loved one and to some negligent person like this it just makes no sense.

[ss40_70]

this happened in ohio ,fredericksburg .. about 2 hours away from whre i live . i dont think we are getting the whole story here , tempers down in the amish paradise seem to be flaring up recently ,.. theres been beard cutting and a few barns burnt and entire family's have been shunned , and who knows what else we wont hear about being english as they say ..

[troy_mclure]

being in iraq thru many "celebrations" i have seen many bullet impacts from the sky.

seen them fall and bounce, and seen them come in at an angle under an awning and knock a chunk of cinderblock out.

it all depends on the angle the gun was fired.

if its fired vertical it will only reach terminal velocity, but if its fired at a 45 deg it will retain much of its velocity when it impacts.

[twotoescharlie]

if it was just falling, it could only fall at 32 feet per second,I 'm not sure but think that is the law of gravity

TTC

[MtGun44]

Sorry, Two Toes, not true. 32 ft per second acceleration every second. First second 32, second
64, etc. the acceleration of 1 G of gravity. Eventually the air drag matches the force of gravity and
it doesn't speed up any more. For a point on bullet, this is a very high speed. For a feather,
not so much.

Troy has it exactly right.

Probably just a very bad luck incident, could have been 1.5 miles, but not shot level or straight
up.

Bill

[ph4570]

if it was just falling, it could only fall at 32 feet per second,I 'm not sure but think that is the law of gravity

TTC

Nope.

[ph4570]

Sorry, Two Toes, not true. 32 ft per second acceleration every second. First second 32, second
64, etc. the acceleration of 1 G of gravity. Eventually the air drag matches the force of gravity and
it doesn't speed up any more. For a point on bullet, this is a very high speed. For a feather,
not so much.

Troy has it exactly right.

Probably just a very bad luck incident, could have been 1.5 miles, but not shot level or straight
up.

Bill

Then there is the affect of air.

[troy_mclure]

heres the wiki on terminal velocity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_velocity

[jblee10]

Wiki says a skydiver with arms tucked in will go about 200 mph. If a bullet falls around the same speed you're looking at about 300 fps. A 300 grain bullet would develop about half the energy of a 22 long rifle. That's nothing to sneeze at and I wouldn't want to have it hit me in the head. Safety first!!!

[DIRT Farmer]

There are those of us who have long range muzzle loaders here. These rifles will shoot with in 1 moa at 1000 yards. At one of the matches at Camp Atterbury they shoot out to 1300 yards. 150 grains equivlant and a 350 to 400 grain slug, I am sure that is within max range.

When I teach hunter ed I take one of my long range rifles for that very reason. These things shoot a long way and once you shoot it it is your responsability till it stops.

[Bad Water Bill]

I have remembered this set of figures for many years. 32 fps+32 fps + 32 fps to a max speed of 126 mph.

Not sure weather it was from Hatcher or who but it has rolled around there for a long time.

[gandydancer]

This may upset some of you on here But why is some thing like this always an act of god? & KCSO what caliber was being used in your post that hit the man in the mouth? as to the young girl and the man who is Takeing the blame for this & the mile and a half shot with a muzzie. May the young girl RIP NO MATTER WHAT HAPPEN SHE IS STILL DEAD, The shooter? I don't belive it was his bullet. and the shot itself I want to see where it was shot from and what path they think the bullet took This whole set up story or what ever you want to call it is being shoved under the rug. its to cut and dried. if I upset anyone. SORRY. GD

[wills]

Note the low angles as compared to “straight up”>

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/longrange/sandyhook03.htm

Since one of the test's objectives was to gauge bullet penetration, the huge target consisted of three 1-inch thick boards, separated by 1-inch cleats. The target was supported on 6-inch spruce posts and was constructed partly of spruce and partly pine, since this was the wood at hand.

In the tests at 2,500 yards, the target was hit five times in seventy rounds with the .45-70-405 service load, only once with the Martini-Henry in eighty rounds, and four times with the long range Springfield in thirty shots.

When the Springfield long range cartridge was fired, the 500-grain blunt nosed lead bullets propelled by 80 grains of black powder in the 2.4-inch cases at about 1,375 fps penetrated right through the three inches of wooden target and buried themselves in the sand. One 500-grain slug pierced three inches of target and buried itself in a supporting six-inch post, giving a total penetration of a measured 5.25 inches. The Service 405-grain bullet gave a penetration of just 1.12 inches, and the Martini-Henry 480-grain bullet, 2.50 inches.

Angles of rifle elevation were: Springfield service .45-70-405 - 17°08'16"; Springfield long range .45-80-500 - 10°38'21"; and Martini-Henry .45-85-480 - 13°20'18".

[Rockydog]

Just read another AP news story that said 3/8 of a mile. That's onlt 660 yds by my calculation. Other than the 3/8 figure the stories were word for word. RD

[jcwit]

This may upset some of you on here But why is some thing like this always an act of god? & KCSO what caliber was being used in your post that hit the man in the mouth? as to the young girl and the man who is Takeing the blame for this & the mile and a half shot with a muzzie. May the young girl RIP NO MATTER WHAT HAPPEN SHE IS STILL DEAD, The shooter? I don't belive it was his bullet. and the shot itself I want to see where it was shot from and what path they think the bullet took This whole set up story or what ever you want to call it is being shoved under the rug. its to cut and dried. if I upset anyone. SORRY. GD

Because that is the way the Amish usually look at it. We had 3 Amish kids hit on a country road not far from where I live, oldest one was 10 I believe using a cart pulling a red flyer wagon on a public road and a car came over the hill and hit them. More or less an act of God.

These accidents are horrible and in the case of the girl getting shot, not much can be said other than never shoot a firearm into the air. In the case of the kids on the road, what are 10 years olds doing on the road with a poney pulling a cart and wagon?

[ss40_70]

rocky , i seen the 3/8 of a mile mentioned also .. but that was for a " blood trail " .

but like gandy dancer says things are being shoved under the rug down there ..

[leadman]

I was walking the lot one day looking for a misplaced vehicle ( we normaly had 400 to 500 on the lot), when I found a 7.62 X39 bullet sticking out the front of a Chevy truck hood. The first piece of sheetmetal was penatrated and the second lower piece was almost broke thru with the bullet. The angle in the hood was not quite straight down, maybe 10 degrees off. This was right after the New Year celebration here in Phoenix. The celebration in this part of town included even sustained machine gun fire.
The guy that drove this truck was given the bullet on a key chain by his fellow employees when he returned off vacation.
This was an older Chevy pickup so the metal was still thicker than new trucks now.

[gandydancer]

SOME ONE SAID NOT AT 1 mile & 1/2. closer to 660 yards. that makes a lot more sense. If the death of a young child makes any sense. it breaks my heart to think about it.

[Tom Myers]

Some years back I wrote a ballistics program that duplicated the algorithms used by the military to calculate artillery trajectories. In addition to calculating the retardation caused by air drag the software also takes into account the retardation due to gravity on the up leg of the trajectory and the acceleration due to gravity on the down leg of the trajectory. It also takes into account the density of the air at the altitude of each calculation increment. Very accurate.

If we assign a ballistics coefficient to 0.173 to the Lee R.E.A.L. 50 caliber bullet and a muzzle velocity of 1260 f.p.s. and run the calculations, The optimum launch angle is 35 degrees and the calculated maximum range is 6, 255 feet or 1.18 mile. The highest point of the trajectory is 1,995 feet at which point the bullet has slowed to 282 f.p.s. When the bullet impacts the ground, 6,255 feet downrange the velocity has been increased up back up to 375 f.p.s. and the angle of impact would be 67 degrees.

I upped the velocity to 1500 f.p.s. with the same ballistic coefficient and the maximum range was boosted to 6, 504 feet - 1.23 miles

Next, I increased the ballistic coefficient of the bullet to 0.25 with a muzzle velocity of 1500 f.p.s. and the max range dramatically increased to 8,127 ft. - 1.54 miles.

So I guess it comes down to just how far away the shooter was and what kind of projectile was used and what the powder charge was.

If I had those three facts I would be able to determine to my own satisfaction whether the story was horse hockey or not.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Down here in Arequipa each 24 December at midnight is the most dangerous night of the year to be struck by burned out fireworks or expended munitions fired from who knows where within this valley of 2 million + people. The fireworks display is immense as every household, neighborhood government and state government trys to out do each other. Interspersed are the many who want to show off their ability to make their personal firearm add to the noise.
Mike in Peru

[Jal5]

This happened not too far from where I live and as one poster stated, there have been a lot of strange things happening in that Amish community this year with inter family feuding, beard cuttings, all violence unheard of before for them. This probably was negligence on the part of the owner of that weapon, but then again a lot of strange things have happened this year? Joe

[Echo]

Some years back I wrote a ballistics program that duplicated the algorithms used by the military to calculate artillery trajectories. In addition to calculating the retardation caused by air drag the software also takes into account the retardation due to gravity on the up leg of the trajectory and the acceleration due to gravity on the down leg of the trajectory. It also takes into account the density of the air at the altitude of each calculation increment. Very accurate.

If we assign a ballistics coefficient to 0.173 to the Lee R.E.A.L. 50 caliber bullet and a muzzle velocity of 1260 f.p.s. and run the calculations, The optimum launch angle is 35 degrees and the calculated maximum range is 6, 255 feet or 1.18 mile. The highest point of the trajectory is 23,945 feet at which point the bullet has slowed to 282 f.p.s. When the bullet impacts the ground, 6,255 feet downrange the velocity has been increased up back up to 375 f.p.s. and the angle of impact would be 67 degrees.

I upped the velocity to 1500 f.p.s. with the same ballistic coefficient and the maximum range was boosted to 6, 504 feet - 1.23 miles

Next, I increased the ballistic coefficient of the bullet to 0.25 with a muzzle velocity of 1500 f.p.s. and the max range dramatically increased to 8,127 ft. - 1.54 miles.

So I guess it comes down to just how far away the shooter was and what kind of projectile was used and what the powder charge was.

If I had those three facts I would be able to determine to my own satisfaction whether the story was horse hockey or not.

Sorry, Tom, but these numbers don't make sense to me. You are saying that launching @ 35 degrees sends the bullet to an altitude of over 4 miles, but it only travels something over a mile down range. I think, maybe, the reported altitude is off by a power of ten, and the max altitude was 2,394.5 ft. Just sayin...

[waksupi]

The Amish are a strange bunch. Did you know that only the elders are allowed to read the Bible? They then tell their congregation and family THEIR interpretation of what the Book says. Individuals are not permitted to have the chance to form their own opinions and understandings. I suspect this is where the strife is coming from at the colonies. Just like in the "English" world, someone with an agenda will cherry pick Bible passages and try to use them for their own benefit.

[Tom Myers]

Sorry, Tom, but these numbers don't make sense to me. You are saying that launching @ 35 degrees sends the bullet to an altitude of over 4 miles, but it only travels something over a mile down range. I think, maybe, the reported altitude is off by a power of ten, and the max altitude was 2,394.5 ft. Just sayin...

Yep, your are correct. It was off by a magnitude of 12. The mid-range height value is calculated in inches and I just copied the number without dividing by 12.
I shouldn't have tried to do that last night when I was tired.
I edited the value in my post to show a mid range height of 1, 995 feet or just a little over a third of a mile.

I must make a New Year's resolution to be more vigilant in my future postings.

[NSP64]

Such a shame for someone so young.

I have passed on shots at deer before because the back area was not clear. It was snowey, the deer were in a plowed field, and behind them about a mile away were some farm buildings/house. I maneuvered to get a wooded area behind them, and they noticed my movement and wandered off.
Better safe then killing someone.

Back in the day , we were having gunnery practice with the M2. They were tripod mounted with a chain over the barrel to limit upwards and side-to-side movement.
We were shooting stuff and hit an old tank hull with a tracer. It smashed but stayed lit. Everyone stopped firing as that tracer bounced in high arcs off to the left, comming down and bouncing back up again, four times before it burned out. It covered about a mile that we could see, who knows how far it really went.

[jcwit]

Did you know that only the elders are allowed to read the Bible? They then tell their congregation and family THEIR interpretation of what the Book says. Individuals are not permitted to have the chance to form their own opinions and understandings. I suspect this is where the strife is coming from at the colonies.

Maybe true with the few families you have in Montana. Not true here in No. Indiana in LaGrange, Elkhart, Allen, Kosciusko, and Marshall counties. How do I know? I grew up among them and have relation that were Amish, reason they are "were" they're gone now.

We do have districts as in "church districts" that allow the use of say a roto-tiller and another district that does not but that is decided by the chruch members so as there is no strife. This is just one of many examples I could use.

Take it a step further, in parts of Missouri, when making hay the bale must fall to the ground before being picked up and placed on the hay wagon. Go figure!

[scb]

Another unfortunate reason why you always need to know where every bullet goes. It would have been better for everyone if he just blew a hole in his lawn with the powder charge than what tragically occurred.

Bruce

This is what I've always thought and still do. However I was observing a handgun training class that was being "taught" by a SWAT wanabe type who insisted muzzles be pointed in the air. When questioned about it he said it was so that if there was an accidental discharge no one would be injured by splash or a ricochet. This is obviously true but it doesn't take into account else, like this poor girl. I've always believed that anyone on a range accepts a greater amount of risk, certainly more than someone a mile away.

[shooterg]

I haven't seen a description of the firearm, other than "muzzleloading". I'm guessing the guy still had a load in an in-line (sabot?) and was shooting it off to clean and reload. Of course he shoulda emptied it last year - in a berm somewhere. If it was a sabot, I don't expect they can match it to the rifle anyway "beyond a reasonable doubt". Still sucks for the girl and her family.

[pmeisel]

So sorry for that young girl, regardless of the rest of the hoo-hah.

[azrednek]

We had a young lady named Shanen killed here many years ago by the same act of an irresponsible fool.
The article I read on this said it was accidental. I believe I would call it negligent. If you fire a shot in the air it is going to come down somewhere. Unfortunately another person has died due to this act.

While serving on a Maricopa County Grand Jury. We heard many indictments handed down being charged with the so-called Shannon's Law. To the best of my knowledge police never did find the shooter in Shannon's case.

After the incident here in Phoenix people started demanding criminal laws for random in the air shooting. It is a problem here in Phx is with punk gang-bangers shooting up in the air to impress their punk buddies.

It should be illegal to shoot in the air but once the anti's got involved drafting the legislation it turned into a big cluster-screw. A kid shooting any projectile like a BB, sling shot, pea shooter or a high school track coach discharging a blank firing starting revolver would all be guilty of a serious felony with mandatory prison time. Naturally the NRA and local orgs opposed it and the media went nuts claiming the NRA is in favor of random in the air shooting.

Fortunately some pro-gun state Congressman cleaned it up. BS the anti's tried to add was eliminated.

The Grand Jury I sat on passed down several indictments for Shannon's Law violations. The cases I heard were all either punks showing off or New Year's celebratory gun fire. Far as I'm concerned each and every one I heard deserved to have the book thrown at them.

It has been a pet-peeve of mine. About 30 years ago while stripping shingles off my roof. I discovered a mini-ball was the source of the leak. The mini-ball nose straight down had penetrated two layers of shingles, the felt lining but was stopped after partially penetrating the plywood.

[Bret4207]

The Amish are a strange bunch. Did you know that only the elders are allowed to read the Bible? They then tell their congregation and family THEIR interpretation of what the Book says. Individuals are not permitted to have the chance to form their own opinions and understandings. I suspect this is where the strife is coming from at the colonies. Just like in the "English" world, someone with an agenda will cherry pick Bible passages and try to use them for their own benefit.

Not the case with our local Scharwtzentruber Amish. In fact some of the dissent between individual interpretations of what a passage means leads to groups leaving the area or forming their own church.

They aren't idiots and aren't saints. They're just people.

[Mk42gunner]

They aren't idiots and aren't saints. They're just people.

That can be said of just about every group of people on this planet. Sad that so many, on both sides of an issue, lose sight of that fact.

I feel sorry for the girl and the families involved in this.

I am finding it hard to type the right words regarding this situation.

Robert

[onesonek]

A tragedy it is, and my thoughts and prayers go out to the family.
I would agree with Tom, more infomation is needed, but quite possible. That said however, a careless act of a gunowner firing in such a way is irresponsible no doubt. But may it not also be just fate? When you look at on the surface, it is indeed tragic. But look at it as a moment of time. I look at such flukey happenings as fate. Everything had to be just perfect in a very miniscule amount of time for this to happen. Who's to say her number, time, calling, however you wish to look at, it was not up. God's Will, or fate? I think her time was up,, had it not been the way it is posed in the report, would not have something else equally as flukey happened,,,,,, we do not know? Just when a gun is involved or suspect, it takes on a different connotation, than when struck by lightening. All I'm saying, was it an accident or was it meant to be.

[jblee10]

I found a 9mm slug stuck in my mother-in-laws shingles while cleaning her gutters one year. It was nose down at about a 10-15 degree angle. Buried in the comp shingles with only 1/3 the bullet visible. Mythbusters did a show on this and wind always carried the bullet where they couldn't find it. They finally dropped 30 cal bullets from a balloon high enough to acheive terminal velocity. Firing from hand I'm not sure you could ever fire "straight up". I always empty my muzzle loader in the field. Why not take a practice shot with a proper backstop?

[DLCTEX]

When I was a kid we spent a lot of time trying to shoot a 22 straight up and get the bullet to come down close. We used a level and had some really calm days. We used metal roofing for cover. The nearest we ever achieved was about 30 yds.

[Hardcast416taylor]

So if the shot fired the person in question was straight up and the girl was 1 1/2 miles away from the shooter something smells like limburger cheese. A decently qualified forencics person can deduce from the angle of the wound inflicted a decently accurate angle of decent. From this figure distance can be figured out a bit more accurately. Assuming the shooter was using a .50 cal. sidelock with patched rb and a 80 gr. charge, there isn`t any reasonable way this is what happened.Robert

[onesonek]

I guess I didnt either read or see where it was said it was fired straight up, nor the type of load, firearm (other than a ml), and or projectile that was used.

[Bad Water Bill]

So if the coroner determines that the piece of lead dropped out of the sky will the ML guy be charged with murder or will it be called something else?

[MtGun44]

Straight up, or within around 10-15 degrees of striaght up will get you a bullet that is just
falling when it comes back. Down aroun 30-40 degrees it will come down point forward with
substantial velocity and is very dangerous. Falling bullets can break a windshield or cause
minor injury of an unprotected person, but Hatcher reported that when they hit wooden planks
there was just a small dent, and that they hit base first.

Bill

[MtGun44]

Bill - I'm not a lawyer, but I think any kind of murder has to have some sort of intent. I think
that the worse you can be charged with in any accident, no matter how incompetent you were
and how predictable it was is something like negligent homicide or manslaughter. Of course,
this all varies from state to state, too.

Bill