Swageing/casting question

[ctrout]

Hi. I am a brand new member here and this is my very first post so be gentle.

First a bit of background. I have been handloading for almost 18 years now and I stumbled upon the very interesting thread about making jacketed bullets for my 10mm from spent 9mm casings. I never had an interest in casting before because I didn't want to hassle with mixing alloys and heat treating for proper hardness and so on. I really like the idea of swageing because it looks like it's not an extremely complicated, difficult, or tedious process and it sounds VERY economical if I can find any kind of good sources for the lead and brass.

Now for my questions. I am a little leery of core/jacket separation of a swaged bullet at 10mm velocities so I was wondering if a hot poured lead core would perform better. The process I am considering is to clean the brass as good as I can in a citrus bath, apply a coat of flux to the inside of the case, swage in the lead, then stick all of the bullets in an oven on the self-clean cycle (900ish degrees F for a couple hours). This would serve the purpose of bonding the core and jacket when the lead melts while also annealing the brass. After the heat treating, finish forming the nose of the bullet and hollow point if desired.

Can anybody here help with identifying any flies in the ointment so to speak?

[Reload3006]

that will work but the flux will rust your dies badly. (dont ask how i know) so afterward make sure to wash them again before you swage or in your case point form. You will still need to do the core seat operation because you need to expand the OD of the 9mm brass. then point form. your good to go. But you really have nothing to worry about in terms of core separation and your gun. Sure lots of stuff can happen but its just as apt to happen with Hornady , Speer and sierra bullets as those you swage yourself. Because that is how the others are doing it. If they dont have bullets coming apart in your gun chances are neither will you.

[ctrout]

Cool. Thanks for the input. Now I just need to start gathering equipment and lead/brass.

[MIBULLETS]

I agree with Reload3006, as long as the bullet cores are swaged tight to the jacket, you should not have to worry about core seperation. Bonding them will guarantee that though, but probably not needed for target shooting. Plus the bonding can add more time and effort to your process.

[BT Sniper]

10mm/40 cal is by far my favorite bullet to swage. I would have to say it is probably the easiest, cheapest, and funest bullet to make. A great choice for anyone looking to get into swaging. When you look at the total cost you can't go wrong with 9mm brass for scrap prices at about $20 per K, find yourself a friend or make a friend at the local tire shop for free lead (any lead will work from pure scrap lead to wheel weights, it isn't critical at all) and you are practicaly good to go!

As far as bullet holding on to core, bonding is certainly an option. It would turn an allready superior bullet into an exceptional bullet. Even without bonding I have experienced incredible results. I have pushed these 185 grain bullets to 1050 FPS in my 40 S&W (safe in my gun) and still had perfect results. Looking at the data the 10mm may get 100 FPS more then this with same bullet. I would have to bet the reuslts from 10mm velocities will be just as good and certianly better but doubtful you will have any problems from the additional 100 FPS increase.

I say go for it of course. The 10mm may just be the perfect cartridge for this very strong bullet in my opinion.

Just look at the jacket!
http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/upgraded40cal008.jpg


and the expansion with a notch
http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/P1060064.jpg


and the expansion without a notch but with a crimp grove!
http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/40buldge028.jpg

YOU CAN'T GO WRONG!

Good Shooting and Swage On!

BT

[ctrout]

Wow! Those pics look great. That is the kind of performance I'm looking for. I will be getting close to 1300fps out of 185s in my 10mm though. I guess I'll just get the cannelure tool so help with controlling expansion. I was just thinking that since I would have to anneal anyway, I would just stuff the lead first so that the boding would just come as a side effect of the annealing process. Annealing is required when using spent cases isn't it?

[ReloaderFred]

Yes, I find annealing necessary to get good fill out and full diameter. I anneal my cases in a ceramics kiln, so I put the cores in prior to annealing, which bonds the cores. I've got recovered bullets that should have probably separated, but are still bonded together, and I don't use any flux in mine.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[BT Sniper]

Yes bonding the core and annealing the brass in the same step would work very well. Yes I recomend annealing the brass for best results.

Are you married? Cooking lead, brass and HCL in the oven may make sort work of your marriage if you are. :) I cooked a few hundred 22 brass (clean no lead) in my self clean oven and in less then a half hour set of every smoke allarm in the house. Lucky the wife and kids where gone.

So point of the story a good tourch may work better outside for the anneal/bonding process.

As for potential of these bullets in a 10mm....... Well I would put them up against any commercial bullet avialble, then factor in the cost difference between making them from scrap brass and lead vs. paying for premium bullets and I'll shoot these any and everyday of the week!

BT

[Swageocast]

Don't think you can put your lead pot under the kitchen hood and it will be sufficient to pull all the fumes out. NOT :-(

Do all that stuff outside to be really safe ,,,or probably suffer wicked headaches for at least a week,,,,even though over 25 years ago YOU don't forget.

Be SAFE you guys ,,, it's harder on ya the older you get.

BT Sniper dident you set up a nice BBQ grill retrofit for annealing brass hulls???

Or am i having an old guy moment??? :-)

Oh Im sorry "Time challenged moment" for all those politically Correct out there.

And NICE pictures by the way Brian :-)

[BT Sniper]

Yep BBQ grill works good to to anneal. Pics in the anneal sticky.

BT

[ctrout]

You guys are like mind readers or something. I was just about to ask what the most cost effective solution to annealing in bulk is when the last post showed up. Guess I need to start hitting Craigslist for an old gas grill and some bricks.

[cgtreml]

BT Sniper someday you will have to start a thread on how to take good pictures of bullets. You have the best I've seen. Do you have a fancy camera or just some special tricks.

[DukeInFlorida]

The "trick" is that you should have a camera capable of "macro" images. Most cameras (the cheaper ones) have a minimum focus length of a couple of feet.

One way to work around that is to set the camera at that minimum focal length distance, and then zoom in to where you want it to be. A small tripod helps immensely.

Lighting is the other important criteria.

[MightyThor]

Little known fact:

In addition to being a fine craftsman, BT is also a talented if not modest artist. Those images above are not photographs, they are oil paintings on canvas. Not since the old masters have we seen such fine brush technique. :smile:

[BT Sniper]

A "how to" for taking good pics would probably make a good thread.

I'm getting better but no expert. A member here name of JonBlack takes some real good pics. Here is some he took of the 40 from 9mm http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_42/322451_Turn_your_9mm_brass_into__40_SandW_hollow_p oints.html&page=1

I have a simple panasonic digital camara. Like Duke said I too use the "macro" setting for my bullet pics. Basicaly it is good for up close and high resolution pics. I use a plain white piece of paper that is rolled upward behind the bullet so there is no square corners for shadows or background noise. I use the flash but am usually backed up just a bit so the flash doesn't over power the pic. Now if I back lit the bullets it would take care of the shadow behind the bullet caused from the camara flash and pic would be even better.

Then once pic is loaded into the computer I "crop" the image to zoom in on the bullets and cut off all the uneeded space around the edge.

After writing this up I think a "how to take good pics" would make a good thread. I'll start one up soon if no one else does.

Good shooting

BT

[garym1a2]

Lead will melt at about 310 celcuis, much hotter and you get all types of problems, charring the flux, oxidizing the brass,... In the electronics industry we use a nitrogen atmosphere when soldering in this temp range.

Plus in a soldering process a little tin helps also and a typical profile only keeps you in the liquidus zone maybe 30 seconds.



Hi. I am a brand new member here and this is my very first post so be gentle.

First a bit of background. I have been handloading for almost 18 years now and I stumbled upon the very interesting thread about making jacketed bullets for my 10mm from spent 9mm casings. I never had an interest in casting before because I didn't want to hassle with mixing alloys and heat treating for proper hardness and so on. I really like the idea of swageing because it looks like it's not an extremely complicated, difficult, or tedious process and it sounds VERY economical if I can find any kind of good sources for the lead and brass.

Now for my questions. I am a little leery of core/jacket separation of a swaged bullet at 10mm velocities so I was wondering if a hot poured lead core would perform better. The process I am considering is to clean the brass as good as I can in a citrus bath, apply a coat of flux to the inside of the case, swage in the lead, then stick all of the bullets in an oven on the self-clean cycle (900ish degrees F for a couple hours). This would serve the purpose of bonding the core and jacket when the lead melts while also annealing the brass. After the heat treating, finish forming the nose of the bullet and hollow point if desired.

Can anybody here help with identifying any flies in the ointment so to speak?

[sargenv]

I've pushed the 193 JHP's made from 9 mm brass to about 1150 fps.. with the powder I had, I could not get any more velocity.. I was using a S&W 610 with a 6.5" tube.. I was using 40 S&W brass but loading to 10 mm length (1.260"). I could likely load longer if needed since the cylinder length is about 1.600".. If I had any 10 mm brass, I could likely load it longer and try a different slow burning powder.. I might be able to make more than the 1200 fps of the original 10 mm Norma load.