Real black powder help

[tomme boy]

I recently switched to real Black. I was looking for some tips on its use. How many times to shoot before swabbing barrel? The fowlling seems really bad compaired to what I am used to. And really hard fowling on cleanup when I get home. Performance seems good. Just wish my eyes were better. I'm getting 1 1/4" groups with my maxi's at 50 but about 15" at 100. But I am sure that is my eyes.

[fishhawk]

Well some days I can shoot a whole match and not have to swab out the bore, when it gets hard to load then swab is my advise. Now as to the fouling all the lube is supposed to do is keep it soft so you can reload in almost 40 years I have found no lube that will keep it clean. Also another trick is to swab the bore after you load that way if your shooting a caplock the crud stays out of the drum. steve k

[mooman76]

It really depends on the gun and the load combination on how often you have to swab. you really have to play with the load and see. I usually spit patch and don't have to swab at all. The spit patch does it for me. When I use bore butter I have to swab like every 3 shots or my groups start getting big. Although there is allot of fouling, it should clean out easy with water.

[skullmount]

tomme boy,

You did not mention the grade (2f, 3f etc.) you are pouring down the barrel. Vary the loads by 5 grains up and/or down to see what happens, maybe more. My .350 bullet shooter likes 2f better than 3f. I swab after each shot and the 3f is a bear compared to the 2f, groups are better also. The guy who put it together for me also tried 1.5f in it and he reported good results. I just got some 1.5 f this fall but have not tried any yet.

I just came in from shooting a .504 White pistol with 60 grains of 3f behind a 430 White power punch bullet. I shot 9 times and did not swab at all between shots, (slip fit bullet used, wool wad too) but it seemed a bit dry so I blew down the barrel with my hand in an almost closed fist to put a bit of moisture in there between shots.

skullmount

[Maven]

Now as to the fouling all the lube is supposed to do is keep it soft so you can reload in almost 40 years I have found no lube that will keep it clean. Also another trick is to swab the bore after you load that way if your shooting a caplock the crud stays out of the drum. steve k

tomme boy, Maxi-Balls and REAL's even when fully lubed, leave a great deal of BP- and even Pyrodex RS- fouling behind compared to patched RB's in part because of the heavier powder charges used with them and partly due to the absence of a greased or damp patches used with round balls. As fishhawk suggests, damp swabbing your bore after firing Maxi's or REAL's really does keep fouling in check and makes for easier loading and more accurate shooting to boot.

[451 Pete]

Tomme,
Some of the shooters at Friendship use what I have heard called the Rigby method of loading. They run a damp patch on the ram rod when they seat the bullet down on the powder. They say it keeps the fouling consistant between shots and the bullet keeps moisture from getting into the powder charge. I tried it once with my Whitworth but found it did not work out well for paper patched bullets. I don't see why it would not work for what you are doing.

Just a thought .... Pete

[tomme boy]

I have been using Diamondback 2F at 80grains for RB and maxi's. I am using bore butter. I have some felt coming. I am going to lube them as well. Or shold I not.

[.38 Special]

I find that a lubed felt wad between bullet and powder really helps with fouling. I have heard that they can decrease accuracy with long bullets (as opposed to patched ball) but have not verified that for myself.

[rdstrain]

If you are getting fouling that is very hard to clean, I suspect that somewhere in your shooting/cleaning routine you are using some kind of petroleum product. Petro based products + black powder = tough fouling.

[tomme boy]

I oil the bore after cleaning and that is it. It is cleaned out before I shoot it with T/C #13 cleaner. Then dry patches until clean. The bore on this is as clean as a new barrel. It is like a mirror. I clean it over a 5 day period after it has been shot.

I am going to try the damp patch after loading and see how that works.

[waksupi]

In this climate, Bore Butter fouls a bore terribly after a few shots. I'd try something else.

[tomme boy]

Like what? Thats the only thing available around here.

[waksupi]

Like what? Thats the only thing available around here.

I imagine even Crisco would work better. Bore Butter is mainly beeswax, and can certainly clog the works.

[Flinchrock]

Like what? Thats the only thing available around here.

Lard, Mink oil from Track of the Wolf, SPG from Midway, Bumblin' Bear Grease from October Country,,,anything but "bore budder"

Use unsalted lard.

I hate bore butter.....

[excess650]

I've recently tested Diamondback ffg in a .62 and .45 with PRBs. I didn't find fouling to be better or worse than Elephant, Goex, or KIK, so wouldn't blame the powder.

When I got my first .50 as a teenager, it was a CVA Mountain Rifle kit. I didn't know that the 1-66" twist wasn't supposed to shoot Maxi-balls, so I shot 'em. I used (3) 44 Mag cases of fffg Goex and lubed the Maxi with Crisco. Sometimes I would put a gob of Crisco in the bore between the Maxi and powder. IIRC, it generally got harder to load after a few shots, but it grouped well. (4) 44mag cases of fffg under a Maxi would put a welt on my cheek and sometimes blow the hammer back to half cock, so I guessed that was too much powder.:idea:

If you have a source of beeswax, you can make your own lube. Beeswax isn't a lube, but just a carrier to harden the lube. Look up in the Boolit Lube area for recipes and ideas, but stick with non-petroleum products. I'm not a fan of bore butter, but it works OK on patches.

[Maven]

tomme boy, Try this one:


Stumpy's Moose Snot, a premium multi-shot between wiping (10+) patch lube stable over a wide temperature range.


Beeswax 2 oz.
Castor Oil 8 oz.
Murphy's Oil Soap 1 oz.


Heat beeswax in a soup can set a pot of water. ( A double-boiler. I keep my beeswax in a one pound coffee can and measure out what I need by melting it and pouring it into measuring cups). Add just enough water so the inner can does not begin to float (should be just short of the lube level in the can). Heat the water to a low boil. In a separate can, add the castor oil and Murphy's oil soap (cold). Once the beeswax is melted, swap the castor oil can in the pot of water for the beeswax. Add the beeswax to the oils. It will clump up. Stir with an ice tea spoon as the mixture heats up. When it fully melts there will be a scum that floats to the top and just won't mix in. Be patient. DO NOT COOK THE MIXTURE. Once the solids are dissolved there is no need to heat further. Skim the scum off. Remove the mix from the heat and wipe the water off the outside (so it won't drip into the container when you pour it out). FINAL TOP SECRET STEP: Add a teaspoon of Murphy's Oil Soap and stir vigorously. This last step makes the lube frothy and smooth - really adds to the appearance; though it doesn't seem to matter to the function of the lube. Clamp the can in the jaws of a vice-grip pliers and pour into the waiting tins. Allow to cool a half hour.


Btw, you can substitute vegetable- or olive oil for the castor oil without reducing the lube's effectiveness. Once the stuff sets, you'll need to use a popsicle stick or something similar to apply it to the Maxi-Balls.

[tomme boy]

Well I took out a new rifle to try today as well as the New Englander. I did not have any problems with fouling. What I did was to load the Lee REAL's then take a patch with T/C #13 cleaner that was damp and swab the barrel. I shot the T/C 10 times and had hardly any fouling at all. It shot better too. I don't know if it was switching to 3F of the swabing. But here is the tagets I shoot today. The top is from the new rifle to me I picked up. SEE MY OTHER POST http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=136814

The bottom one is my T/C. I busted a bunch of clay birds on the berm at 75 yds today. It was great!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v21/tommeboy/IMG_1174.jpg

[357maximum]

The recipe Maven gave you is good stuff and I used alot of it before I started using rendered deer tallow. The best things about the deer tallow is that it is basically free for the effort and it works well without any "bloom" or oxidation issues in storage.


I have a 50 caliber Green Mountain RB barrel that absolutely prefers 3F. Powder granulation can be a major factor......SOMETIMES.

[mack1]

Another vote for the recipe Maven gave. Castor oil can be purchased at RC hobby stores, used for glow engine fuel. This works well for me on pacthes and maxies.

[Boerrancher]

I have never used any type of lube on my patches other than spit. When I am shooting I constantly have a piece of patch cloth in my mouth. After I fire the shot I also blow down my bore and blow all of the smoke out through the nipple or vent depending on what I am shooting. There is just enough moisture in the human breath to help soften the fouling. I get around 10 shots before I have to swab the bore a few times with a wet patch. I have always used mostly 3F powder in my rifles as it seems to shoot pretty good for what I do with them.

Best wishes,

Joe

[Alan]

With a reasonable twist for RB - 1:48" in a .45 or .50, for instance, if the patch and lube are right you should be able to shoot all day w/o swabbing. The ball/patch combo needs to be tight, and the patch needs to be thick enough to carry enough lube. .015" is pretty close to the minimum thickness. .010" usually won't do unless it is pretty wet - and sometimes not even then.

[KCSO]

A natural lube like the old Dixie zip lube (lanolin) or bear oil seems to work best with real black powder. Youngs lube use to be popular here but since I had better i never used it much.

As to swabbing it depends on the rifle the barrel the rifling ect. I have a 32 that needs swabbed every two shots to shooot right and i have a 58 with Forsyth rifling that is an all day shooter. B/P is the WORLD of variables and what works for one is not necessarily going to work for another.

[bigted]

here here ... im with the "what works for one" crowd. every rifle is different and will tell ya what it wants for all things. my gpr lyman is 54cal and spit patchs are the thing when im shooting target made of paper...ball dont stay huggin tha breech for long as i set fire to it and send it on its way. all the popular rifles now are 50cal and a few 45cal rifles and the twist is fast being 48 and faster...my thoughts are this...get a slow twist...[66 inch] and a big nough ball...[54 and up] and use 2f or 1f real powder behind the tight patched ball and slobber on the patch with yer ugly mug and load n shoot till you get resistance or by by loss of accuracy.

as for swabbing twixt shots...well the gunk you shove down the barrel has gotta go somewhere and ussually ittl b found in the chamber/drum area and will eventually cause un-spoken fun till it gets washed out with plain ol water n soap and precious little soap but gobs of water....warm water that you wont wanna keep yer paws in fer long.

i also am a believer and a patron of the blowing rite down the barrel twixt shots. keeps the fouling soft so the next rammed ball-n-patch will clean the bore for ya and dont allow nobody to tell ya that this dont work or is somehow dangerous. might startle some newbys at watchin ya do it but im tellin that that gust of moist air is very healthy for that bore with all the crud in it.

ive had my share of fast twist barrels in traditional kinda rifles and they take the looooong boolits that in my sperience kick the stuffin outta ya and allow lead to accumulate in the first short area of the barrel that is such a bugger to see or clean in a closed breech gun like the hawkins n kentuk rifles....them big round balls wrapped in a cloth patch r tha way to go when muzzle-loadin with traditional kinda rifles.......leave the fast twists and looooong boolits for the modern inliners that have a removable breech to clean clear thru and get all the lead out from them loooong boolits

only time i use borebutter is to salve the clean barrel after cleanin it with copious amounts of hot water and swabbin dyr...then an ample amount of this bore saver is used but i would never use it on patchs nor boolits either...works good enough for a perservative both inside n out and smell good as well but wipe it all away when getting ready for shootin...all ya need is what the good lord put inside yer awfull smellin mug and them wind bags to get yer smokepole to puffin smoke n hittin the mark

[HARRYMPOPE]

With a reasonable twist for RB - 1:48" in a .45 or .50, for instance, if the patch and lube are right you should be able to shoot all day w/o swabbing. The ball/patch combo needs to be tight, and the patch needs to be thick enough to carry enough lube. .015" is pretty close to the minimum thickness. .010" usually won't do unless it is pretty wet - and sometimes not even then.

I agree-

In my 54 TC with a .535 ball .015 patch and saliva as lube i shoot 30 shots during offhand practice with no cleaning.I tend to blow down the barrel between shots as well as "bigted" says.I use either 70g Wano FF or Goex FF

George

[twotoescharlie]

another good lube, 50/50 murphys oil soap, neatsfoot oil. real neatsfoot not the one with M/S in it. can get it at your local tack shop. have been using this for years, target shooting you can use a long time without wiping. smaller bores (32-36cal.) need to be wiped more often.

TTC

[NickSS]

I use saliva on all my patches for shooting rb loads in my rifles. I have shot upwards of 100 rounds over a 3 day period using saliva only on my patches without wiping of cleaning of any sort. Accuracy stayed consistent start to finish. When Hunting with Patched round balls I use crisco on my patches by dipping them in melted crisco and laying them on a paper towel to dry. I can get about 10 shots before the barrel is too difficult to load. but then I have never fired more than one shot at one animal and have never shot more than three rounds in a day hunting. When I am shooting a conical bullet I lube them with my own lube consisting of 45% beeswax, 45% crisco and 10 % olive oil. I can get five accurate shots before fouling starts to detract from accuracy at all and up to 20 shots before the rifle becomes too hard to load. When testing loads I wipe the bore after loading the bullet with a damp patch. I then can shoot all day doing this and accuracy stays the same throughout.

[bigted]

i once read a very heated back-n-forth about the blowing down the barrel subject between two very accomplished fellers and since then i have taken to doing the 2 breaths down the tube before i reload my gpr 54.

got to thinkin that the bprc fellers are split almost rite down the middle with whether they use a blow-tube betwix shots or wipe the barrel between. so i lunged ahead with the blowing down my muzzle loader and WALLA...it works very well and when i load a charge of black powder down over such a blown barrel then stuff a patch wrapped round ball that seals the bore tightly ...i never have a problem and in the interest of accuracy ive found that as long as my compression is the same with every load...[which the blow down the barrel helps promote] my accuracy improved dramatically. never been hunting with it yet but i can assure you that i would not hesitate to give that barrel a lungfull of putrid air from me scum infested yapper before i shook another load down for a follow up shot or just becuss.

had a feller start to give me instruction on why not to blow down the barrel and i ended his lecture with a simple statement that i will not grace any of you here with the details of such. so now when i load n shoot my smokepole i go where there are no stupids to tell me that somehow im gonna get me noggin blown off with such a practice...being alone in the woods when shooting my smoker is better on me disposition anyway and it allows me to practice without the aid of that tempting flat table that also has a nice hard stool to set on when yanking my trigger...instead i get to walk around as i set up my cans or milk jugs full-o-water and wonder back to where i wanna plug em from without the aid of either setting or resting her over a handy bench...maybe a limb or a fallen tree but that is out where such things are found anyway and it adds to the spark of doing this kinda shooting...also i always bring a bate of feeding for me and start a fire to cook it with so it winds up being a whole ceremony rather then just blowing powder down a tube.

have a hoot with yer shooting and allow me to stop verbalizing my stupids and just back away from this here typing so i can get on with the day.

[northmn]

For shooting patched ball at targets the liquid lubes and spit are likely better. You lube with them and they seem to clean the bore when you seat the ball. I think the gunk pushed on top of the powder may be fairly consistant as they seem to get excellent accuracy doing this with a minimum of swabbing. For hunting where a loaded ball is carried for some time but not a lot of shots fired a grease/wax lube works OK. I have used Crisco and bore butter with equal success but that is for lots of carry and little shooting. I even carry wet cleaning patches out in the field to clean a rifle if I shoot and miss or as in squirrel hunting if the I get more shooting. Liquid lubes like Hoppes 9+ can dry out and do not work as well for carrya. but work great on the range.

DP