upside down gas check in 357 levergun [Archive]

zodd

12-17-2011, 12:37 AM

Afternoon gents- was reading on another forum about a guy flaring the case mouth then pressing an upside down GC (cup downwards) in the mouth then placing the cast 357 bullet on top and seating normally.As the bullet is seated it pushes down completely on the GC leaving no space. The GC is not attached but flat bullet base is pressed tightly against the flat base of GC. He was using this in a levergun and pushing the bullet to around1600fps. He was doing this as he only has bevel based bullets. couple of questions
1. is it safe?
2. any potential problems?
3. would this work as well a GC attached to the bullet normally?
Seems to me (with my limitted knowlwedge) that this should work--cheers zodd

Cadillo

12-18-2011, 01:51 AM

What? No powder?

zodd

12-18-2011, 06:03 AM

Yes powder.... primer too!

Reload3006

12-18-2011, 09:32 AM

I doubt that it would blow up in your face but I have serious safety doubts about it for only one reason. A few years back a lot of people got the Idea that seating a fiber wad over their powder on reduced charges to keep the powder against the primer would be a good thing. But it resulted in "ringing" their chambers. It would seem to me that this same thing could happen here. I personally would not do this.

Blammer

12-18-2011, 05:24 PM

secondary projectiles could be a concern, the GC will be "flying" on it's own, an who knows what direction it will take. I do know it will take out a chronograph. :)

GP100man

12-18-2011, 08:55 PM

Hanging up in the longer carbine barrel may result in problems also !!

http://i746.photobucket.com/albums/xx110/GP100man/toomuchpowder.jpg

williamwaco

12-18-2011, 09:06 PM

JeffinNZ

12-18-2011, 11:35 PM

I use low density polyethylene (LDPE) wads in my .32-20 under a PB 31133 HP. This boolit departs my company at 1850fps and outstanding accuracy. You don't need to use an inverted GC though they work just fine.

zodd

12-19-2011, 12:42 AM

Re: Williamwaco- in my post it mentions he only had bevel based bullets none suitable for a GC. I guess thats why--cheers zodd

MBTcustom

12-19-2011, 12:55 AM

That sounds like an interesting idea! I have a 200grain RN mold that my Smith just loves, but I never have been able to run it in the rifles because its a PB boolit. Upside down GC might just get me there. Hmmmmm.

7of7

12-19-2011, 01:30 AM

I have bevel base bullets, and I seat checks on mine just fine.. (Pat Marlin's checkmaker 35PB)

NSP64

12-19-2011, 01:42 AM

Dont ever shoot over a chrony with it loaded like this.
[smilie=1:[smilie=1:[smilie=1:

405

12-19-2011, 09:28 AM

Not a good idea. As others have posted- secondary projectiles, shot chronies, etc. If the powder is 100% load density with some compression then no worry about ringed chamber but still not a good idea. I know from experience that gas checks and half jackets can strip from the bullet and get left in the bore when shooting low pressure, low vel loads. I'd think that a reversed gas check would be even more prone to that.

nanuk

12-19-2011, 10:42 AM

Reload3006

12-19-2011, 10:49 AM

I have done a lot of "Experiments" to prove or disprove things and to see if I could if I had to type of scenarios. Such as can I reload steel cases can i convert berdan primed cases to boxer etc. The times I have done this I could see the benefit in doing it. But to put a gas check on a bullet backwards to me serves what purpose? I can not think of one possible benefit from it but can think of several possible catastrophes from it. so as William asked and I repeat
WHY?

MGySgt

12-19-2011, 12:17 PM

Why not?

The GC allows him to drive a PB boolit to a higher velocity without blow by.

the only issue is the secondary projectile that no one can be sure where it will be after 10 to 20 feet past the muzzel - somewheres down range - not good for chrongraph - but as a hunting/practice round? I see lots of good use for it.

This practice should not ring the chamber/barrel becasue the GC is against the base of the boolit not on top of the powder, hence the CG does not slam into the back of the boolit, it just pushes the boolit out - they start to move at the same time.

I would be very carefull in a bottle neck cartridge to ensure the boolit doesn't pus the GC past the shoulder of the case - then you would have a possible projectile smashing into the base of the boolit!

One of the OLD ways to make shot rounds for straight walled pistol cases was put powder in case, seat CG (cup up) on powder, fill with shot, put second GC in case on top of shot and crimp. (the crimp was to hold the top GC in place). These shot cartridges were effective to some degree. I for one had fun playing with them!

FWIW

greywuuf

12-19-2011, 12:48 PM

seem to me that the cup down ( upside down) GC would act more like a HB wad cutter, and display VERY little tendancy to hang up in the bore. pellet gun pellets and Blow guns all seem to load the "projectile" cup towards the pressure. I understand that a GC is very "thin" and could conceivably get cocked in the bore and problems could arise, I Think ( not having tried it ) the the cup towards the pressure would tend to prevent this. As long as it is approached as an "experiment" and some double checking after each firing in the beginning I don't see it as a "Big Deal"

YMMV
Dan

405

12-19-2011, 01:37 PM

a 1600fps round doesn't sound that low pressured

I can see a J-word jacket sticking in a bore, but a GC? it would have to be such a low pressure load that the boolit would stick also.

someone needs to do a 'Speriment on this.... drop the load down and just see when the event happens.

Think whatever you like. When I said, "by experience" that is exactly what I meant. If you have made your mind up in a vacuum of experience or first hand knowledge about how it really works, no use explaining the mechanics/physics involved in how it can happen.

Char-Gar

12-19-2011, 03:06 PM

This is a very old idea. Back in the late 50's and early 60's I hunted with a Winchester 86 in 45-70. We used the old 330 grain Gould hollow point, cast from 1-20. Leading was an issue with a bullet that soft, when we pushed it 1,600 fps.

So we used the upside down gas check and things worked well. Now here are the issues related to the practice as I understand them.

The case must be sized enough to get a tight grip on the upside down check and not let it fall down into the powder. We used a dab of household cement, as extra protection.

The expanding gases will keep the check firmly against the base of the bullet so it won't come off in the barrel.

Once our of the barrel however, the check does it's own thing. But the early day Lyman Ideal checks were not crimped on and often came off down range anyway. As long at there is nobody down range, the loose gas check is not a hazard.

Here is the kicker. We did it because there were no gas check hollow point molds available. Had they been available we would have used them. The practice was a creature of necessity. If there is a gas check mold available then it would be better to use it and forget the upside down check.

Jim

12-19-2011, 03:26 PM

..... As long at there is nobody down range, the loose gas check is not a hazard......

I'm pretty sure I understand the point you're trying to make, but if I were down range, a loose gas check would be the least of my concerns. :holysheep

Sonnypie

12-19-2011, 04:48 PM

Humm...
I have these fire formed checks and I was wondering.... :veryconfu

Loose checks, like loose women, should be avoided.:popcorn:

MGySgt

12-19-2011, 05:16 PM

Loose checks, like loose women, should be avoided -

Only if you are married!

JeffinNZ

12-19-2011, 07:47 PM

I'm pretty sure I understand the point you're trying to make, but if I were down range, a loose gas check would be the least of my concerns. :holysheep

:-P:smile: Good call Jim!

wallenba

12-19-2011, 08:02 PM

It seems to me it might be a bit unreliable. Some of those checks must end up inside the cases. As you seat the boolit, the air in the space in between, will get compressed pushing the check in.

uscra112

12-19-2011, 10:33 PM

My first foray into cast boolits was with a .35 Rem Marlin 336 - my old Dad's last deer rifle, a good few years ago now. I fired many hundreds of commercial BB semiwadcutters from that rifle, no gas checks of course, and my best load used AA 5744 giving 1800+ fps over a Chrony. Never a hint of leading. So why bother with the gas check at all?

williamwaco

12-20-2011, 12:06 AM

Re: Williamwaco- in my post it mentions he only had bevel based bullets none suitable for a GC. I guess thats why--cheers zodd

I use bevel base bullets in my Win 92 exclusively.

Lee 357-158-SWC and Lee TL356-124-TC.

Many people here do apply gas checks to bevel base bullets with success. But again the question - Why? It is an interesting exercise in what is possible and lots of fun.

That 158 grain is going about 1600 fps and the 124 grain over 1800 fps from my win 92 with no leading and normal accuracy. Around 2" at 50 yards with the factory sights. Around 1" at 50 yards from my Thompson contender with 8x Weaver.

I also use a 158gr Lee gas check in the Contender It shoots very well but no better than the bevel base at 50 yards.

.

Jim

12-20-2011, 12:18 AM

..... But again the question - Why?......

William, A lot of people do things that don't make sense to others simply 'cause THEY WANNA'. I've been asked why I store all my powder and primers in a decommissioned refrigerator in an environmentally controlled space. 'Cause that's what I WANNA DO. I've been asked why I beat the stuffin's outa' myself with 1 1/4 ounce boolits in a 45 caliber rifle. 'Cause I WANNA. Just 'cause it don't make sense to somebody don't make it wrong.

williamwaco

12-20-2011, 10:39 AM

William, A lot of people do things that don't make sense to others simply 'cause THEY WANNA'. I've been asked why I store all my powder and primers in a decommissioned refrigerator in an environmentally controlled space. 'Cause that's what I WANNA DO. I've been asked why I beat the stuffin's outa' myself with 1 1/4 ounce boolits in a 45 caliber rifle. 'Cause I WANNA. Just 'cause it don't make sense to somebody don't make it wrong.

You are absolutely correct. I am one of them.

As I said:

"Why? It is an interesting exercise in what is possible and lots of fun."

And almost every experiment I do is done to prove "them" wrong. I have found that with the exception of this forum, ( and yourself and a few others in particular ) 80% or more of the "You can't do , yada, yada, yada," statements on the web along with the same statements I have been reading in magazines for 60 years, are simply wrong. ( Including the idea that the .357 Mag just will not shoot without a gas check bullet, and the idea that bevel base bullets are not accurate. )

But, knowing that "It is an interesting exercise in what is possible and lots of fun." Doesn't satisfy my curosity. I am trying to find out the motivation for the experiment. What is he trying to accomplish? and why? What problem is he attempting to solve? I might want to try it myself.

Merry Christmas,

.

goofyoldfart

12-20-2011, 11:24 AM

So Velly interesting : I just responded to this in another thread. I won't ask Why? Because I'm sure he has a reason. But, I will chime in with this: try polyethylene wads cut from a meat tray. this was "mostly" tried in straight wall cases but can be used with bottlenecked cases with using a small dollop of glue on the base of the boolit and then attaching a wad. let dry and load. in a straight wall case put enough wads in so that seating the bullet ever so slightly compresses the wads. Acts as a gas check and wipes the bore. I have done it since 1975 and yes, it does work and with NO chamber ringing. I have done it in 30-40 weapons. God Bless to all and a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

Goofy. P.S. not try to put PatMarlin out of business :)

MGySgt

12-20-2011, 04:00 PM

goofyoldfart - don't you need to workup your loads WITH the wads?

A max load of say 2400 without the wads - than you introduce the wads you have just - changed your case capicity

leadman

12-20-2011, 04:52 PM

I started using the upside down gas checks in straight walled cases after reading an article that Dave Scovill, editor of Handloader, wrote mentioning this. He has refered to this practice several times over the years.

Set the upside down check in the mouth of the flared case and use the boolit to push the gas check into the case, this way there is no gap between the check and the boolit. Never have had a problem with doing this.

I would not fire one over my Chrony as the check could hit the unit. However, the only gas check I had a problem with was a Hornady 22 cal that came of and went thru the display on my first Chrony. And this one was installed in a normal manner.

I still have some of those old Lyman gas checks for 44cal. that do not crimp on very tight. Still use them for plinking loads.

clintsfolly

12-20-2011, 07:53 PM

Used the upsidedown GC in my 450marlin 330cast hp at 2100 hits hard and no leading Clint

zodd

12-20-2011, 09:57 PM

You are absolutely correct. I am one of them.

As I said:

"Why? It is an interesting exercise in what is possible and lots of fun."

And almost every experiment I do is done to prove "them" wrong. I have found that with the exception of this forum, ( and yourself and a few others in particular ) 80% or more of the "You can't do , yada, yada, yada," statements on the web along with the same statements I have been reading in magazines for 60 years, are simply wrong. ( Including the idea that the .357 Mag just will not shoot without a gas check bullet, and the idea that bevel base bullets are not accurate. )

But, knowing that "It is an interesting exercise in what is possible and lots of fun." Doesn't satisfy my curosity. I am trying to find out the motivation for the experiment. What is he trying to accomplish? and why? What problem is he attempting to solve? I might want to try it myself.

Merry Christmas,

.

Hi William- I guess the intention is to stop leading and push the cast bullet a bit faster. Again I read this on another forum and was curious. Having limitted experience as a reloader and wanting to push my cast bullets a bit faster i was interested in his post about upside down GC's ( though wanted abit more info on safety etc). I have read pushing CB faster than 1100fps can cause leading (though now after some of the responses this seems not to be the case necessarily). Would like to push my Lee RN TL 158 gr bullet ( from water dropped WW) to around 1650fps. Otherwise have to buy a new bullet mold, GC seater etc and thought this might be a solution. I am getting some great info from the reply's--cheers and Merry Christmas - zodd

krag35

12-20-2011, 11:15 PM

I have used this upside down GC method in my 444 with Lymans 429667 with no ill effects, and no leading, which was what I was trying to get rid of. with 40,000 CUP behind it, and 250 gr of lead in front of it, it can't help but come out of the barrel.

DIRT Farmer

12-20-2011, 11:54 PM

I amoung others have used GCs to build "rat shot" loads as described by MGSgt. I have patterned them, and never found the GC ti fail to be in the pattern. More than a few rats expired due to the GC.

fishnbob

12-21-2011, 11:14 AM

I'm pretty sure I understand the point you're trying to make, but if I were down range, a loose gas check would be the least of my concerns. :holysheep

+1 Jim

williamwaco

12-21-2011, 06:20 PM

Hi William- I guess the intention is to stop leading and push the cast bullet a bit faster. Again I read this on another forum and was curious. Having limitted experience as a reloader and wanting to push my cast bullets a bit faster i was interested in his post about upside down GC's ( though wanted abit more info on safety etc). I have read pushing CB faster than 1100fps can cause leading (though now after some of the responses this seems not to be the case necessarily). Would like to push my Lee RN TL 158 gr bullet ( from water dropped WW) to around 1650fps. Otherwise have to buy a new bullet mold, GC seater etc and thought this might be a solution. I am getting some great info from the reply's--cheers and Merry Christmas - zodd

Unless there is something wrong with your gun you can do that without water dropping and withour any gas check - upside down or not.

See :

http://reloadingtips.com/pages/exp_111201a_lla_test.htm

For test results with Lee Liquid Alox and plain base bullets.

I have pushed them to 2095 in the .30-30 and 1675 in the .357 Mag with excellent accuracy and Zero leading.

To see what I mean by Zero leading, see this page.

http://reloadingtips.com/pages/index-leading_problems.htm

I have loaded 100 rounds of .30-30 170 grain Lee bullets, with and without gas checks that should produce 2000 and 2100 fps.

Unfortunately, I have not been able to find time to get to the range to test them but the results will be posted within a couple of weeks.

Merry Christmas.

.

zodd

12-21-2011, 11:59 PM

Thanks William great links maybe I am being over cautious velocity wise. I will LLA tumble lube some 158 grainers and push them to around 1600 in my Rossi levergun and see what happens lead wise--cheers zodd

lbaize3

12-25-2011, 07:04 PM

I know I am getting old and have a bad case of CRS, but I seem to remember reloaders either gluing or screwing zinc washers into the bottom of lead boolits to keep the leading down. Seems to me that the backwards gas check would work even better than placed the correct way. The backwards check should flare into the rifling and prevent leading and it may well increase velocity.

I would like to try glue like GOOP or something of that nature to attach the check to the base of the boolit. Or a small hole and a small wood screw (it would have to be well centered). I have a bunch of 357 I am fixing to load with PB 158gr Lee RNFN booits. I think I will try the glue solution and let ya'll know how it works....