1911 questions...worth worrying about?

[offshore44]

Here's a question for the brain trust:

I have a thirty year old Colt 1911 that I shoot cast out of.

The boolit is an RCBS 45-230-rn cast with 50/50 Lead / WW with about 2% tin added. They are sized to 0.001" over groove diameter and lubed with Blue Angel lube. I load them in R-P cases with CCI primers. I use Blue Dot powder. The velocity is right at 850 fps +/- a few fps.

That's the background, here's the question; I am noticing very minor crud (could be powder crud, lube crud or could be leading) in the first 1/8" of barrel or so. Cleans right up with Butches Bore Shine and a couple of patches. It's really no big deal. On the other hand, is there a way to prevent this? Is this even something to worry about? The rest of the barrel is nice and clean with no leading, just the usual Blue Dot black powder fouling.

I would also like suggestions for another powder to try out...the goal is this boolit out the muzzle at 850 fps.

Oh, and I'm going to switch to White Label BAC for lube on all my cast boolits...

[Walt]

A 230 LRN at 850 fps is pretty easy. I would definately lose the Blue Dot. A not complete list of much better powders would include....Bullseye, 231 or HP38, 700X, Power Pistol, #5, Tite Group, Unique, Universal, and Clays could be used but I would prefer something a trifle slower. If you want just a target load, say 750 or 800 fps, Clays is great. Those are most of the powders I have used for 230 LRN. There are plenty more others may recommend.

[offshore44]

A 230 LRN at 850 fps is pretty easy. I would definately lose the Blue Dot. A not complete list of much better powders would include....Bullseye, 231 or HP38, 700X, Power Pistol, #5, Tite Group, Unique, Universal, and Clays could be used but I would prefer something a trifle slower. If you want just a target load, say 750 or 800 fps, Clays is great. Those are most of the powders I have used for 230 LRN. There are plenty more others may recommend.

Thanks Walt, I have a boat load of Power Pistol on the shelf, so I may use that up. I got it for reloading 9mm, and then didn't use it for that.

[R.M.]

I've loaded 6.5 of Unique, and it works pretty well for me.

[ColColt]

Oops...wrong boolit weight.

[offshore44]

I've loaded 6.5 of Unique, and it works pretty well for me.
(chuckle) Unique comes up a LOT in discussions about shooting cast, doesn't it? I don't have any, but it sounds like I need to save up some change to get some. It sounds like I should get a bunch o'that stuff to try out in my other cast cartridges as well.

So, Power Pistol I have on the shelf, and get assimilated by the Unique Borg...:-D

[btroj]

If accuracy is fine then I would ignore it.

I doubt it is leading as leading doesn't usually come out with a patch and solvent. Most leading that I em is visible after a few wet then a dry patch, that is actually when I look for leading. Lad requires a mechanical method of removal, a brush or chore boy, something of that nature.

If the gun is happy then why change a thing?

[offshore44]

If accuracy is fine then I would ignore it.

I doubt it is leading as leading doesn't usually come out with a patch and solvent. Most leading that I em is visible after a few wet then a dry patch, that is actually when I look for leading. Lad requires a mechanical method of removal, a brush or chore boy, something of that nature.

If the gun is happy then why change a thing?

Yup, the pistol is happy alright...as, or more accurate than store bought FMJ. I'm happy as well, but thought that I would ask. I guess that I am pretty picky about my Colt and what I feed it. As far as accuracy, I can't say for certain if it is more accurate, or I'm just getting to be a better shot because I can shoot a whole bunch more. I figure that I pay about four or five cents every time I pull the trigger vs. whatever store bought ammo is these days. That means that I can afford to load up a .50 cal ammo can worth of .45 ACP and shoot it. Can't buy that much ammo.

[35remington]

Power Pistol is blasty.

You'll shoot a load with the same speed, as, say, Unique, and think, "Wow!" These are way more powerful!"

And then you glance at the chronograph and realize the blast is fooling you into thinking the load has more power than it does. It is capable of quite good velocities, but then so is Unique, Herco, Universal, et. al, and without the blast, too.

If your bullet seats in a comparable way to ball, with similar seating depth, 6.5 Unique is a bit much. More like 6.0 Unique is more like it. 6.5 is well over 900 fps in my guns, depending upon bullet seating depth of the particular 230 used.

There are few pistol powders that won't get you to 850 fps with 230 cast bullets at standard pressures. Clays won't get you there, but Red Dot, Bullseye, 700X, Unique, Universal, Herco, and too many others to list all will.

The hard part is narrowing down the selection to just one, and many work about the same. Here there is no "one" choice.

[Walt]

Thanks Walt, I have a boat load of Power Pistol on the shelf, so I may use that up. I got it for reloading 9mm, and then didn't use it for that.

For full power and +P loads Power Pistol is one of the best for the 45 Auto.

[williamwaco]

[QUOTE=offshore44;1505072]

That's the background, here's the question; I am noticing very minor crud (could be powder crud, lube crud or could be leading) in the first 1/8" of barrel or so. Cleans right up with Butches Bore Shine and a couple of patches.


QUOTE]

I don't know anything about Blue Dot but I load a LOT of .45ACP.

Your "minor crud" is NOT leading. Lead does not come out with a couple of patches and bore solvent.

I use first Bullseye, and second Accurate No.2. If I were out of those two my next choice would be Unique. It is an excellent powder.



.

[R.M.]

If your bullet seats in a comparable way to ball, with similar seating depth, 6.5 Unique is a bit much. More like 6.0 Unique is more like it. 6.5 is well over 900 fps in my guns, depending upon bullet seating depth of the particular 230 used.

I went back to my sources to recheck that load. Some books are saying 5.0 max. Others are saying 7.3 as max. I do know that 6.5 gr is working well in my gun so far. No flattened primers or bulged cases.
I might have to re-think things next time I load some up.

[offshore44]

Power Pistol is blasty.

snip

If your bullet seats in a comparable way to ball, with similar seating depth, 6.5 Unique is a bit much. More like 6.0 Unique is more like it. 6.5 is well over 900 fps in my guns, depending upon bullet seating depth of the particular 230 used.

snip


These boolits are seated 0.582" into the case for a COL of 1.225". The Colt actually takes a little longer COL, but the Wife's Kimber won't reliably chamber at a longer COL.

Edited to add: I didn't think that the crud was leading, but it was there. If the powder was cleaner burning, I probably wouldn't have to clean the barrel very often.

[KYCaster]

Hodgden Universal.........much, MUCH cleaner than Blue Dot or Unique.

Jerry

[Walt]

Power Pistol is blasty.

I guess my list is complete. That's right, I think I now have the complete list of possible complaints about pistol pwders. You never know though, I thought I had the list done before this one. :)

[Freischütz]

What did Blue Dot do that medium burning powders like Unique don't accomplish? Maybe a journey into Speer #8 type loads?

[35remington]

Walt, can't see the benefit of increased blast and flash in any way, shape or form unless the pistol has a compensator, and that's a gun for games rather than ordinary folk or, heaven forbid, more serious use where blast and flash puts you at a disadvantage. Power Pistol would be better without it for the vast majority of users.

R.M., you sources for 7.3 grains of Unique are from Lyman, and it is seriously dated data and just plain wrong with a 230 of any brand seated to proper depth. Please give the Unique loads a serious re think. It runs faster with these charges and more up to date data reflects this. Get out the chronograph as there's no need to take my word for it and I would appreciate it if you checked for yourself.

Flat primers don't show up at these levels even if too hot, nor will guppy bellies, but the 7.3 load isn't far from that bulge producing point in poorly supported chambers and definitely overdrives the gun. Point is, 6.5 is past ball duplication speed with lead bullet 230's and 850 fps was the goal the OP had in mind, so I felt compelled to comment.

[R.M.]

I certainly appreciate your info. I have 2 sources with over 7 grains , and like you said, one was an old Lyman book, and off-hand, I don't remember the second, but it had 7.2 as max. I did start at 5.0gr, but that Unique was leaving a lot crud behind. The 6.5 was much cleaner.
When I start a load-up, I check several sources and go from there. Guess I had better dig out the chrono.

[Walt]

Walt, can't see the benefit of increased blast and flash in any way, shape or form unless the pistol has a compensator, and that's a gun for games rather than ordinary folk or, heaven forbid, more serious use where blast and flash puts you at a disadvantage. Power Pistol would be better without it for the vast majority of users.

35 Rem,
I will agree with that. My point is that THERE ARE NO PERFECT PROPELLANTS. Unique would be better if it would actually meter. Clays would be better if not for its propensity for pressure spikes. Bullseye would be better if it burnt cleaner. W296 would be better if it could be used for reduced loads (I could go on and on and on...).....these are all great powders in their own way. I use them all for what they are good at. If I didn't tolerate their oddities I would be missing out on some of the best perfoming loads going. IMO, Power Pistol, for the most part, is a very underestimated powder. It provides very good to excellent accuracy and velocity in all pistol calibers from 9m/m to 45 Auto. For revolvers it is outstanding in the 38 Special with all bullet weights. For lighter bullets in the 357 Mag it is one of the best. I rarely see it brought up here, but it really shines in the 44 Special with 240 and 250 LSWCs. Yes, Power Pistol produces muzzle flash (blasty?)....big deal. I, and thousands more will happily deal with it.
Walt :)

[R.M.]

OK, I just ran one over the chrono, Being Sunday morning and all, and I got 917 f/s. I was anticipating 850.

[35remington]

Walt, since my powder measures dispense Red Dot, Unique, Herco and other more noise friendly largish flake 45 ACP propellants with very good uniformity, I don't have to put up with Power Pistol's downside of blast and flash, which I simply cannot do anything about no matter how well it meters. For long practice session in a standard to short barreled pistol, PP's unnecessary blast gets wearisome.

To each his own. I agree we must all put up with characteristics we don't like, but large flake powders don't have a downside for me through the measures I use in most calibers I shoot, so I don't have to "put up with" anything.

Consequently, I (happily) don't use it for regular loads used in high numbers, nor for any loading where it might get pressed into use for self defense. Herco and Unique are superior to PP in that regard. It also requires more powder per shot than alternatives that obtain 850 fps, so I get better economy using something else with about a grain to grain and a half per shot less powder.

Admittedly, I don't use Herco or Unique for high volume use either. That job falls to Red Dot or Promo, which get good velocities with little powder. I'm thinking that's a criterion that may be of interest to the OP, with whichever powder he settles on.

The Lee PAD is the measure I use, BTW, and large flake powders are not a problem as long as charge weights exceed about 3.8 grains.

[btroj]

I have never used Blue dot or Unique in my 1911. I has seen a far amount of HP38, some Red dot, but mostly it has been fed Clays. 4 gr with a 200 swc works well, is reliable, and accurate enough for me. It gives in the 750 to 775 fps range.

I dislike any powders that give a large muzzle blast or flash. SRH the number of powders avaiable that don't need large charge weights and that don't give the large blast it is easy to avoid them.

My use of Clays is because I have a bunch on hand from a previous foray into 12 gauge loading. I always believe in using up what is available in large quantities. If you already had a bunch of Blue dot then I could certainly see using it.

[MANGYCOYOTE]

offshore44,
You might consider 4.5 grns 700X. It burns a bit cleaner (my 2 cents) than red dot &
it also is good for reduced rifle loads.

[Char-Gar]

The desire to handload cast bullet ammo that leaves no "crud' in the pistol is akin to looking for the pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. Just lean you pistol and"firget about it".

I know nothing about Blue Dot powder having never used it. I have loaded and fired a quarter million or so cast bullet 45 ACP rounds with mostly Bullseye. I have also used much Unique, some 231 and some AA5. I have been satisfiable with all four and really don't have any strong feelings on which is better.

I am typing this taking a break from loading a batch of 45 ACP ammo with you guessed it, Bullseye.

[offshore44]

snip

Admittedly, I don't use Herco or Unique for high volume use either. That job falls to Red Dot or Promo, which get good velocities with little powder. I'm thinking that's a criterion that may be of interest to the OP, with whichever powder he settles on.



The OP is indeed interested in economy. My .45 ACP ammo can holds about 1,800 round of loaded ammo and I go through that about once a quarter. That is not really high volume, in the strictest sense, but that amount of powder is a non-trivial expense for me.

I am reading this thread and the various opinions with great interest. Thanks a bunch for all of the input.

[offshore44]

The desire to handload cast bullet ammo that leaves no "crud' in the pistol is akin to looking for the pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. Just lean you pistol and"firget about it".

I know nothing about Blue Dot powder having never used it. I have loaded and fired a quarter million or so cast bullet 45 ACP rounds with mostly Bullseye. I have also used much Unique, some 231 and some AA5. I have been satisfiable with all four and really don't have any strong feelings on which is better.

I am typing this taking a break from loading a batch of 45 ACP ammo with you guessed it, Bullseye.

That's a lot of .45 down range...

The pistol gets cleaned after each outing, even if it doesn't get used / fired. I live in a temperate rainforest type environment, and cleaning is a must to preserve a firearm. Even if it is just a dis-assembly and wipe-down with gun oil to remove the moisture and dust / mud / crud / bugs, etc.

Like I said before, lots of really good info here.

I use the Blue Dot for loading .44 Rem Mag to be digested in a revolver and carbine as well. I am currently down to about the last pound in a 5 pound jug. I do have all of my brass loaded up currently though, so there is no immediate issues with having to rush out and get powder. That flat doesn't happen here anyway. I am working on a resupply list, so this whole interest in a different powder for the ACP came up.

[Walt]

Walt, since my powder measures dispense Red Dot, Unique, Herco and other more noise friendly largish flake 45 ACP propellants with very good uniformity, I don't have to put up with Power Pistol's downside of blast and flash, which I simply cannot do anything about no matter how well it meters. For long practice session in a standard to short barreled pistol, PP's unnecessary blast gets wearisome.

To each his own. I agree we must all put up with characteristics we don't like, but large flake powders don't have a downside for me through the measures I use in most calibers I shoot, so I don't have to "put up with" anything.

Consequently, I (happily) don't use it for regular loads used in high numbers, nor for any loading where it might get pressed into use for self defense. Herco and Unique are superior to PP in that regard. It also requires more powder per shot than alternatives that obtain 850 fps, so I get better economy using something else with about a grain to grain and a half per shot less powder.

Admittedly, I don't use Herco or Unique for high volume use either. That job falls to Red Dot or Promo, which get good velocities with little powder. I'm thinking that's a criterion that may be of interest to the OP, with whichever powder he settles on.

The Lee PAD is the measure I use, BTW, and large flake powders are not a problem as long as charge weights exceed about 3.8 grains.

35Rem,
If you check my first post (#2) you will notice that I recommend 9 different powders to the OP for loading a 230 LRN to approx. 850 fps. All of which I have used for the same purpose. I could have added Red Dot also, as it is another good one I used years ago but haven't restocked in quite some time. Unique was in that list and so was 700X, both fluffy flake powders. Oddly enough I believe I have loaded more 700X in 45 Auto cases than any other powder. Mostly 4.2 with a 200 LSWC, a great plinking load. I don't load much Power Pistol for use with lead in the 45 Auto anymore. My wrists and elbows don't want me shooting a 230 at 900 fps anymore. I currently am using Clays for most of my 45 loading as I recently came into 18 lbs of it at an almost unbelievable price. Now, if you refer back to post #3, the OP says he has a "boat load" of Power Pistol he had used for 9m/m. He must be aware that PP makes noise and flash. So why wouldn't I recommend Power Pistol as a great full power/+P powder for his 230s at 850? I still think he would like Clays for a cheap target load and I recommended it in post #2. 4.0 with his 230LRN will run any factory sprung 5" 45 I know of. Most of my 45s shoot it accurately to boot.
Walt

[Char-Gar]

I was bitten by the 1911 bug in 1961 and shot Bullseye competition for many years, hence the high round count.

Among the shooters of my day, Bullseye was the powder of choice. Countless millions of USGI 45 ACP ball ammo were also loaded with 4.5/BE. That breaks down to over 1,500 rounds per one lb. can.

I have never seen any reason to change from Bullseye as my powder of choice for the 45 ACP round. When I find something that works, I stick with it. I am just funny that way.

I clean my pistols and wash my hands each time after shooting. So, I just don't get the quest for a clean burning powder that seems to drive younger shooters batty. This is another way I am funny.

[offshore44]

I clean my pistols and wash my hands when I come in from the outside as well, Char-gar. Every time. I haven't been shooting a 1911 nearly as long as you have though. Only since about 1975 or so, and my own since about 1981 or so. I'll dig out the reloading manuals and see what else I can do with Bulls Eye...

I get your point, Walt. I have a 4 pound jug of Power Pistol on the shelf with about a half-a-pound used out of it. I have loaded a few 45 ACP rounds with it, and don't remember why I stopped using it. I do remember that I liked the Blue Dot loads better.

Man, discussing what powder to use in a 1911 with cast is kinda like discussing religion, isn't it?

[Char-Gar]

There are far, far more folks reloading now then when I started in 1958. With that kind of market, powder makers need to produce more and more kinds of powder and more and more hype.

Back in the day we loaded handguns with Bullseye or target loads and autopistol rounds. Unique for mid-range loads and 2400 for full snort magnums. That is all there was to it. Dupont had a pistol powder or two on the market, but nobody I knew every used it.

I sometimes wonder how we managed to fire millions and millions of rounds with very high scores, kill all kinds of game and defend ourselves with such a limited choice of primitive powders. I guess we are luck that any of us are alive to tell the tale.

For the record, I am not against progress, just against hype and nonsense designed to relieve people of their money and passed off as progress.

[Walt]

Man, discussing what powder to use in a 1911 with cast is kinda like discussing religion, isn't it?

Now that is funny. :) I bought my first 1911 in 1974. My first powder for 45 Auto handloads was Bullseye, what else. If you look at the list of powders I first pointed you to, Bullseye was the first. It still is one of the best for target loads a good one for all around use in a 45. Like Char-Gar, I poo-poo the idea of it being dirty. That is Bullseye's weakness....big deal. They all have somekind of drawback.

[MtGun44]

Titegroup or Bullseye, or W231 are my favorite .45 ACP powders. They are capable of
being double charged, so you have to be very careful. Saves money. I load 4.8 TG or BE
under 200 H&G 68 clones and it is great, makes Major caliber, too.

Bill

[Roundnoser]

I have been using Win 231 in my 45 loads under a 200 gr. LSWC. My Les Baer likes a light target load (4.4 grains). and my Springfield TRP likes a more classic load (5.2 gr.). In both cases I have that same "crud" in the first 1/4" of the barrel. I don't think it is leading....more so some lube, powder and carbon.

[35remington]

Walt, if you'll reread his second post, he said he got Power Pistol for his 9mm, and then didn't use it.

So he very likely may not have known about PP's characteristics when I responded, given the information he had provided up to that point. It was only much later in the thread after you and I commented repeatedly that he clarified he used it to a very modest degree. This did not prevent my first posting on the topic, nor subsequent ones, from being pertinent. PP is blasty.

Clays, in Hodgdon's data, doesn't get 850 with any load they list. 850 was specifically mentioned, so Clays is out.

I think I do read a bit better than you're implying. No harm, no foul, but I have tried most of the powders listed here.

Offshore, based on your stated habit of cleaning after every range session, I'd say cleanliness of the powder is the least important characteristic you need. Fortunately almost all are adequately clean enough. "Dirtiness" of the various powders is often way overstated. If you want to see unburned powder, try W571 or HS7 in shotshells, or black powder. Either throws supposed "cleanliness" differences of really very similar powders into their true perspectives.

Myself, I'd follow some of the other poster's preferences mentioned here to see what matters. That would be accuracy, cost, case filling tendencies, metering, and ballistic consistency.

[offshore44]

I think we are getting somewhere now, 35Remington! I throw charges with an RCBS Competition powder measure. Up to now I have been weighing each charge and then dumping it onto a case. Right after putting the powder into the case I place and seat a boolit. I think that I would have a hard time double charging a case...not impossible mind you, just hard. I use a single stage press. It would be nice if I could put the powder right into the case and not weigh every charge, maybe every fifth charge or so after the powder measure is set up. Accuracy / consistency is probably a pretty important part of these loads. Cheap would be nice...but not a real goal in itself. The ACP doesn't take a lot of powder. The ballistic consistency and accuracy are tied together...consistency = accuracy most times. Full(er) cases seem to work better than not in the rifles that I cast for and shoot. Does the same thing work here?

...and you are correct. I did get the Powder Pistol for my 9's and then never reloaded for them. At least not yet. I tried some "development loads" with the 45 ACP once, early last year, and didn't use it again. I don't even remember shooting them across a chrony in fact. I would have to check my notes to be sure. Whatever the case is, Powder Pistol didn't do enough for me to pursue any more load development with it. Eventually it will get used up for something. I try not to waste anything.

I always clean after each outing, even if the pistols don't get shot. Crud is not really that big a deal...specially now that Roundnoser tells me that he is getting the same sort of deal.

Thanks again guys... We'll get this figured out yet, eh?

[offshore44]

Oh, and I haven't been to a range in probably four or five years. The term "range session" makes me chuckle. I do a fair amount of shooting, just not anywhere that I would call a range. I haven't shot pistol over a known distance in at least that long. Oh, I did shoot the .44 Rem mag revolver at 90 yards this spring... But I digress.

I'm learning lots here folks, thanks a bunch!

[Char-Gar]

I use the same Hollywood powder measure I bought used in 1959. The charges of various pistol powders it throws are plenty good for the highest level of competition. Rifle bench rest shooters use a measure as well.

Consistency in all things regarding the production of ammunition is a very good thing. However there is not need to make a fetish out of it. Just use top notch equipment and that will do the trick.

[Walt]

Walt, if you'll reread his second post, he said he got Power Pistol for his 9mm, and then didn't use it.

Clays, in Hodgdon's data, doesn't get 850 with any load they list. 850 was specifically mentioned, so Clays is out.

I think I do read a bit better than you're implying. No harm, no foul, but I have tried most of the powders listed here..

35 Rem,
Actually you don't read any better than I do. :) If you will look at post #2 you will see that I made a point of a Clays target load being 750fps to 800fps as an option, not a full power load. Anyway, I think "offshore44" has plenty of good info to keep him busy for awhile.
Walt

[LGH]

Titegroup, 231, 700X, Bullseye, are all fantastic powders for 230 LRN :drinks:

[kmag]

I will second Char-Gars advice I started loading in 1958 also. Loaded my first round with a boolit that I cast. I have over the years tried a lot of powders, but several years ago returned to Bullsey, Unique, and 2400 for all my handguns. 3.5Gr of Bullseye under a 185 to 200Gr swc has probably won more bullseye matches over the years than any other powder.