An even smaller bullet shooter ?

[skullmount]

Gents,

I mostly lurk, reading when time permits. I fool around with White ml's. I like the smaller caliber fast twist guns & just love Swiss black...

I sent a pm to waksupi looking for some input about where to post a thread on this............so here goes !


To the idea & questions;

Looking for opinions, input, your knowledge, experience and what else you would be willing to share on a smaller caliber, bullet shooting muzzleloader. Seems like there are lots of Lyman/Ideal moulds that might work without having a custom mould cut………………..
I have read and re-read Ned Roberts, "The Muzzleloading Caplock Rifle" ...........has been a real eye opener in some areas as far as the ml goes, but lacks any real substance when it comes to twist information.


Looking at doing a smaller caliber muzzleloader. Something in the 30-32 caliber area.
Barrels that are available & might work ???
.32-20, bore is .305, groove is .312, twist is 16
.32-40, bore is .315, groove is .323, twist is 16
.32spec, bore is .315, groove is .321, twist is 14

I thought that the faster twist barrels would foul too quick.?


Most likely would need a false muzzle type of bullet starter like ones in Ned Roberts, based on what I have read.

Maybe I am all wet !?

Fire away ! :Fire:

[StrawHat]

I have a 32 flintlock I built in the 70s. It uses a PRB and has a 1/66 twist. The barrel came from Golden Age Arms but was made by Douglas (I think).

Are you planning on PRB or boolits? From your twists and mention of the false muzzle, I would guess boolits. If going that route, pick a weight and match the twist to the weight.

[excess650]

It sounds like you need to read up on the early cartridge schuetzen rifles. Schalk, Pope, Peterson, Schoyen, etc were some of makers. Pope used gain twist rifling. IIRC, the early rules didn't allow for cleaning between shots, and they were still using blackpowder at the time.

32 Spl was regarded to be superior over the 30-30 due to its slower rilfing twist and ability (because of) to use BP. 1-16" is slow compared to the faster than 1-10" used in the 8x57mm.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Why don't you go to page 1 of the muzzleloading forum, look at the topics, read any that look related, then go to page 2, and so on.

There are several thousands of pages in this forum if you bother to look. It is like reading an informative book, a page at a time. I know that I have many M/L posts on the 32 caliber muzzleloading rifles going back ten years or better and many others here have such posts .

As an alternative, you could learn to operate the search function and set your specific parameters for a search.


The smaller caliber guns you love, as in 32 caliber in a muzzloader are not fast twist, typically the 1/48 is fastest and they are round ball guns.

The calibers and twists you listed are for cartridge guns, where the projectile is an elongated lead or jacketed bullet, loaded from the breech, AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT FIREARM.

After you read enough you may have viable questions at that time. Right now, they appear unintelligible.

Baron von Trollwhack

[451 Pete]

Skullmount,
I am thinking that I can maybe help but I need a bit more information for what exactly you would like to do. Ned Roberts book covers a large spectrum of ML rifles. Some are strictly bench, some are offhand and some may be used for both. Any of these rifles can be built given enough time and of course a bit of money. You also did not say if this is something you want to build and tackle yourself or something to have built.

Smaller calibers tend to foul more quickly than the larger ones and shallow grooves foul more quickly than deeper ones.

Rifles with a false muzzle are loaded from a bench. A false muzzle serves several purposes. It protects the muzzle end of the barrel from damage in loading and cleaning and it serves as a tapered lead in to the rifling for your bullet. To be properly made the false muzzle is cut off from the barrel blank and pinned to the barrel before the barrel is rifled. ( Not something I had done but I got lucky and mine still will shoot a paper patch. The false muzzle should be rifled with the barrel so as to have a perfect fit and alignment to the rifling. )

I had a Schuetzen rifle built a few years back with a false muzzle. As requested by some here I posted pictures of this rifle on a thread started by buckshot on a match with a .58 rifle a couple of weeks ago on this muzzle loading forum. I don't know that this is exactly what you are intending to have made or want to build. This rifle uses a .38 cal. Green Mtn. barrel of 1-14 twist to stabilize a 325 grain paper patch bullet. More information on this rifle can be found in buckshots thread.

Probably the best place for you to see the type of rifles your interest is in, is either at the spring or fall shoots held in Friendship Indiana by the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association. At these match's you will find light and heavy bench rifles shooting round ball, slug guns ( up to 60 lbs. in weight ) shooting two part swaged bullets and paper patch and other schuetzen rifles like mine on the firing line.

Hope this helps .... Pete

[wgr]

TC. made a rifle at one time in 32 and 36cal. with a faster twist. the twist was 1-32 i think it would shoot maxie balls great. i think a 1-32 are 1-28 would be as fast as you would want to go

[scrapcan]

451 Pete,

Glad you saw this thread as the first thing that came to my mind was your input when I started reading. Your info in Buckshot's thread really opened some thought for me and just entertainment of learning new stuff on the subject after that eye opener.

Here is a link to Buckshot's original thread.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=134390

A question, I have been reading stuff on Chunk guns and it seams this is the same or similar topic. Is that correct?

[Good Cheer]

Skullmount,
Reading your original post makes me believe that you are thinking of making a muzzle loader with a relatively small bore to take an elongated bullet. Operating on that basis I will offer the following.

(1) Single shot rifles in 357 magnum or 38-55 could be great test beds to experiment with before investing funds in a custom muzzle loader. Perhaps even muzzle loading a single shot 30-30 might be worth trying out.

(2) One of the difficulties with muzzle loading bullets is getting bore diameter, barrel twist, bullet sizer and available molds to work together. My solution was to find a barrel maker to produce a .458" bore diameter barrel. That way there's a big bunch of molds floating around to choose from. The same might also work out for an even smaller bore.

(3) I'd better be careful or I'm gonna talk myself into another project. That small bore single shot as a muzzle loader is already giving me the itch.

[nanuk]

Good Cheer

do you load the SS .357 rifle with an empty, primed cartridge and then load from the muzzle?

I've thought about the same thing. wondering if it were plausible. I would think it could work, as long as you made sure your powder load would keep the boolit in the bore.

[nanuk]

Why don't you go to page 1 of the muzzleloading forum, look at the topics, read any that look related, then go to page 2, and so on.

There are several thousands of pages in this forum if you bother to look.
.....
As an alternative, you could learn to operate the search function and set your specific parameters for a search.
......
After you read enough you may have viable questions at that time. Right now, they appear unintelligible.

Baron von Trollwhack


BvT: the tone of your reply appears to be a little condescending.

one of the BIGGEST problems with this forum, et al, is the HUGE amount info available that is NOT relevent to the OP's query.

one could spend Hundreds of hours reading nothing posts trying to find anything that is applicable

and the SEARCH function is a poor option, if you are looking for something general. it won't let you search for a 3character search, and multiple words usually return Nothing for me. [smilie=b:

Sometimes Google works but seldom.

So usuallly the best is to ASK questions on here.

Remember, Even YOU were a Noob at this at one time.

if everyone quit asking questions, and only used the search function, read each and every thread, and then started on the Archives, this place would become BORING real quick.

[Good Cheer]

Good Cheer

do you load the SS .357 rifle with an empty, primed cartridge and then load from the muzzle?

I've thought about the same thing. wondering if it were plausible. I would think it could work, as long as you made sure your powder load would keep the boolit in the bore.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. That's what Paul Matthews wrote about doing with a Ruger single shot 45-70, muzzle loading it to be a paper patched 45-120!
So much fun left to have!

[Good Cheer]

Oh, and as a passing thought, could bottle necked cartridge single shot be made to work? Perhaps the case could be filled and drilled to provide a straight cylindrical interior? Just a thought. Was thinking if maybe a 7-08 could be made to work that way.

[451 Pete]

manleyjt,
Good to hear from you. As the ML rifle developed it branched out into a number of different forms. Each separate branch eventually evolved into a special type or group of rifles best suited for a particular type or style of shooting. The Chunk Gun and the Chunk Gun match's developed from one of these branch's in the mid to late 1800's. The " Chunk " is the log or rest that a shooter uses to shoot prone from.

At Friendship a typical Chunk Gun can be of any weight using fixed sights and with either flint or percussion ignition and shooting a round ball at a target of 60 yds. distance. No false muzzles or sealed ignition systems are allowed. The wiinner of a match is determined by the old string measurement system, this being the distance from the center of target to exact center of the bullet hole. There have been some three shot match's won in Chunk Gun competition at Friendship with a string measurement of less than 1 inch! ( Think Gary Cooper in Sgt. York. )

The type of rifle you may have been thinking of is the Bench Rifle. Bench Rifles are generally more of a precision instrument for the shooting of patched round balls. Here all shooting is off of a bench rest. Although most of the match's are shot at 50 yds. in some of the unlimited matchs these Bench rifles can be scope mounted and some targets and match's are shot out to 200 yds.

A Slug Gun is the term applied to rifles shooting bullets rather than round balls off of a bench. Some rifles shoot 2 piece bullets with soft bases and hardened noses that are swedged together. Targets at Friendship for Slug Guns are shot out to 500 yds.

I don't personally own or shoot any of these. Although the Slug Gun has a certain attraction to me my plate is pretty full with what I already shoot and do. Maybe some day.

Take care .... Pete

[nanuk]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. That's what Paul Matthews wrote about doing with a Ruger single shot 45-70, muzzle loading it to be a paper patched 45-120!
So much fun left to have!


once a case if fireformed and belled just enough that it will barely fit in the chamber, it for sure would make a good seal

this is something worth looking into further. Could a bottle neck cartridge be handled in the same way? There are bottleneck BP rounds.

or the filling an drilling would probably work well, just a smaller chamber, but you could just add some powder up the bore a bit for a slight increase if needed.

[skullmount]

Thanks for the responses so far! Keep 'em coming

Would the false muzzle "need" to have grooves ?

I have been going back and forth on a .375 or something in the .32 area for a while, since I have 2 .350 bullet shooters already, I thought with the moulds available around .311 to .330 something could be sized to just engage the lands/grooves.
Keep the ideas coming !

[451 Pete]

nanuk and good cheer,
The type of loading method you are talking about has been done in the past and is attributed to Harry Pope. Many of the old cartridge schuetzen rifles shot at the range at Walnut Hill used this method of loading. A loaded case is inserted in the chamber and then the bullet is ran down the barrel from the muzzle to just sit on top of the case.

While this method of loading was known to produce some quite accurate groups I do not believe that any modern range will allow it for safety reasons. Think about it. You are pushing a bullet down on a loaded and primed case and relying on your rifles safety while leaning over the muzzle.

just my thoughts ... Pete

[Baron von Trollwhack]

BvT: the tone of your reply appears to be a little condescending.

one of the BIGGEST problems with this forum, et al, is the HUGE amount info available that is NOT relevent to the OP's query.

one could spend Hundreds of hours reading nothing posts trying to find anything that is applicable

and the SEARCH function is a poor option, if you are looking for something general. it won't let you search for a 3character search, and multiple words usually return Nothing for me. [smilie=b:

Sometimes Google works but seldom.

So usuallly the best is to ASK questions on here.

Remember, Even YOU were a Noob at this at one time.

if everyone quit asking questions, and only used the search function, read each and every thread, and then started on the Archives, this place would become BORING real quick.

Nanuk, Only intelligent questions get intelligent answers in the real world.

We have folks falling all over themselves now speculating on what the question really was. Baloney on your hundreds of hours, and other forums(et al), assertion although I suppose some might really need that much time searching out a defined topic anywhere.

One can scan pages, and titles and move on effortlessly and quickly to the next page on CB. That's why books have indexes and page numbers, and this forum provides for titles and a variety of search parameters that books never had. I did not suggest he read every thread.

I didn't refer him to google . That's not relevant to your complaint of my response. That is your problem.

The inquiry was asking about small caliber muzzloading and his question was confused so I suggested he look here first and refered to two methods of doing that. That's help. Just think what he would have found about small caliber m/ls in the first walk through through a hundred pages of titles to inquire into before proceeding to the next. A little understanding would let the inquirer ask intelligent questions from which more specific information might be gained. Your suggesting he was unable to search because did not know what look for doesn't mean that skilled responders should struggle to figure out the posters specific lack of knowledge and fill it. That's A Johnny Carson Swami answer without the hat.

Yes I was once a noob, but one who has expended significant time and effort in directed learning and experience on a hobby. A newcomer would do very well here searching out a topic of intrest.

BvT

[Good Cheer]

nanuk and good cheer,
The type of loading method you are talking about has been done in the past and is attributed to Harry Pope. Many of the old cartridge schuetzen rifles shot at the range at Walnut Hill used this method of loading. A loaded case is inserted in the chamber and then the bullet is ran down the barrel from the muzzle to just sit on top of the case.

While this method of loading was known to produce some quite accurate groups I do not believe that any modern range will allow it for safety reasons. Think about it. You are pushing a bullet down on a loaded and primed case and relying on your rifles safety while leaning over the muzzle.

just my thoughts ... Pete

Good thoughts.
Would definitely rather do this with a H&R single shot than with a Ruger No.3.

[451 Pete]

Good Cheer,
Ha! OK, I'll bite ...... What is the difference? A safety is a mechanical device that can fail. A loaded gun is a loaded gun, enter the human factor and the potential for an accident I would think would be the same for either rifle.

Pete

[skullmount]

Nanuk, Only intelligent questions get intelligent answers in the real world.


The inquiry was asking about small caliber muzzloading and his question was confused so I suggested

Yes I was once a noob, but one who has expended significant time and effort in directed learning and experience on a hobby. A newcomer would do very well here searching out a topic of intrest.

BvT

BvT,

With all due respect, as I mentioned in my first post "I lurk" I have read and searched quite a bit over the years here and other places. No I don't have thousands of posts.....but I do have more muzzleloaders than I can put in my current safe, you might not approve as all are fast twist guns and I haven't pulled the trigger on a round ball in years.......I cast bullets...and shoot them, thats why I lurk here and post a bit.

From where I sit you are the only one who was "confused" scolding me about 32 caliber being a slower twist gun and YELLING about AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT FIREARM.

Go back and reread my post. The substance was picked up by everyone else who posted in this thread. I am looking for opinions too.

My apologies to others who have responded in a positive manner.

[excess650]

nanuk and good cheer,
The type of loading method you are talking about has been done in the past and is attributed to Harry Pope. Many of the old cartridge schuetzen rifles shot at the range at Walnut Hill used this method of loading. A loaded case is inserted in the chamber and then the bullet is ran down the barrel from the muzzle to just sit on top of the case.

While this method of loading was known to produce some quite accurate groups I do not believe that any modern range will allow it for safety reasons. Think about it. You are pushing a bullet down on a loaded and primed case and relying on your rifles safety while leaning over the muzzle.

just my thoughts ... Pete

IIRC, Pope's false muzzle barrels were also supplied with a loading rod, mould and boolit starter. The boolit was pushed through the false muzzle to the length of the loading rod, and because of the change in pitch of the gain twist, the boolit stayed put. A charged case was inserted behind the boolit, and may or may not have had a cork wad over the powder in the end of the case.

Modern schuetzen does away with loading from the muzzle and relies on breech seating the boolit (forcing it into the rifling by mechanical force) and then inserting the charged case behind it.

I owned a square cornered, 44 action Stevens in the 47 pattern with Pope false muzzle barrel with numbered false muzzle and boolit starter. I never had the mould, and the rod was missing, but IIRC, the barrel was marked for the proper length of the rod so that it could be duplicated if lost or broken. Mine was a 38-55.

What you folks are wanting to do can be done without a false muzzle. Insert a cork or vegetable fiber wad in the muzzle and then push a bore sized paper patched or grease groove (will need to be soft) boolit down to just ahead of the leade. Blackpowder will cause the boolit to upset and take the rifling.

Bottleneck case? I suppose that it might work, but something like a 7-08 could be expected to foul terribly, not to mention having a problem cleaning the cases after shooting BP. Pouring a case full of lead and drilling it to bore diameter to the flash hole would make for a small powder chamber, but it might work OK with smokeless.

Turning a Ruger #1 45-70 into a 45-120? No thanks! Try a 500+gr tapered paperpatch boolit just seated into the case over a charge of BP and you'll soon see why. Mine would shoot ragged hole groups at 100 yards when loaded that way, but recoil was brutal.

Oh yeah, Pope wasn't the first, but became a master. I believe that it was Schalk from Pottsville Pa who made the first false muzzled breech loader, and possibly a on Ballard at that.

[skullmount]

Hey guys, I was looking for input on what Loverin style moulds might work for the barrels listed.
I need help as I have not cast anything smaller than the .350.
Thanks, sm

[skullmount]

What you folks are wanting to do can be done without a false muzzle. Insert a cork or vegetable fiber wad in the muzzle and then push a bore sized paper patched or grease groove (will need to be soft) boolit down to just ahead of the leade. Blackpowder will cause the boolit to upset and take the rifling.


"obturate"
The White muzzleloaders are loaded in the manner you describe. Some do better with a felt wad between the powder and the bullet. Some are real finicky about the sizeing others are not. The lighter bullets need to be sized more closely.

Do any of you shoot a White?

[Nobade]

I think what is happening here is that what Skullmount (and I) are doing is outside the norm when people think about muzzleloading firearms. For those who have tried it, bullet firing long range muzzleloaders work extremely well, and have performance far beyond what roundball guns are capable of. But other than the Ped. Gibbs and Euroarms Volunteer rifles, there aren't any examples of this type of rifle currently on the market. Plenty of inlines can be made to work very well with long conical bullets, but most people who own them use plastic sabots and pistol bullets. Not because they work better, but rather because that is what they are sold.

Smaller caliber bullet firing rifles (and handguns) do work and work well. Both Skullmount and I have 35 caliber (.350 bore) bullet firing muzzle loading rifles, and they are fully the equal in power, accuracy, and range to a 38-55 cartridge rifle. (280 grains at 1400 fps) I see absolutely no reason why a 30 or 32 caliber rifle of the same type wouldn't work, and soon will likely build one myself to play with. Keep in mind this is not a 32 caliber Cherokee. It will be firing a 165-200 grain lead bullet at 1200-1400 fps. Not a 40 grain round ball at 2000 fps. This is the reason for the faster twist rates.

These rifles are normally loaded with lubricated lead bullets .0005 to .001 under bore size, or paper patched lead bullets the same size and black powder. When fired, the bullets slug up and seal the bore. They are accurate and do not lead.

Now that we (hopefully) all understand what we are talking about, let's have some productive discussion, shall we?

[excess650]

Nobade,
It appears that you have the answer. A boolit (GG or PP) that can be loaded with little or no resistance from the muzzle in a weight compaitble with the rifling twist. Of the calibers listed by the OP, the 32Spl or 32-40 will work better than the 32-20 due to the fact that either should shoot up to about a 200gr boolit. I had an original highwall in 32-40 with salt-n-pepper bore. When loaded with a tapered GG boolit of about 200gr (seated well out) over a charge of BP, the holes in a target were oval at 100 yards, but it could be expected to knock down turkey silhouettes at 385m. This tells me the 1-16" twist was marginal for stability and the boolit had considerable yaw at 100 yards. Apparently it "went to sleep" and shot point on at longer distances.

To my way of thinking something in the 185gr range that casts near your bore diameter, or can be minimally sized to your bore diameter (or patched UP to it) is where I would look. This may or may not require a custom mould, but that isn't a big deal these days. For an "off the shelf" approach, try a 30cal like the 311407 or 311467 and size it down to be patched.

[Redleaf]

Skullmount, you need to search all the standard barrel manufacturers' offerings in that range to determine their bore dimensions, then just search available bullet moulds in the same range til you find something that will work. WHats the bore size for a .32 barrel (A BULLET BARREL, NOT A ROUNDBALL BARREL?) ;) when you start looking for a bullet, dont forget about patching one vs using a greaser. Patching typically will increase the bullet diameter by .007" to .012". You ought to be able to find something in that range that will suit your needs. Do you have any particular use in mind for this gun other than curiosity?

[waksupi]

This may be of assistance. Look through the links on the page.

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/shooting/index.htm

http://inforumer.com/Top/Recreation/Guns/Shooting/History/050641/

[skullmount]

Nobade,
It appears that you have the answer. A boolit (GG or PP) that can be loaded with little or no resistance from the muzzle in a weight compaitble with the rifling twist. Of the calibers listed by the OP, the 32Spl or 32-40 will work better than the 32-20 due to the fact that either should shoot up to about a 200gr boolit. I had an original highwall in 32-40 with salt-n-pepper bore. When loaded with a tapered GG boolit of about 200gr (seated well out) over a charge of BP, the holes in a target were oval at 100 yards, but it could be expected to knock down turkey silhouettes at 385m. This tells me the 1-16" twist was marginal for stability and the boolit had considerable yaw at 100 yards. Apparently it "went to sleep" and shot point on at longer distances.

To my way of thinking something in the 185gr range that casts near your bore diameter, or can be minimally sized to your bore diameter (or patched UP to it) is where I would look. This may or may not require a custom mould, but that isn't a big deal these days. For an "off the shelf" approach, try a 30cal like the 311407 or 311467 and size it down to be patched.
I'll look into those moulds you listed ! Thanks


Skullmount, you need to search all the standard barrel manufacturers' offerings in that range to determine their bore dimensions, then just search available bullet moulds in the same range til you find something that will work. WHats the bore size for a .32 barrel (A BULLET BARREL, NOT A ROUNDBALL BARREL?) ;) when you start looking for a bullet, dont forget about patching one vs using a greaser. Patching typically will increase the bullet diameter by .007" to .012". You ought to be able to find something in that range that will suit your needs. Do you have any particular use in mind for this gun other than curiosity?

Redleaf,

The barrels I have narrowed it down to, I think, what I listed.

As far as patching goes, nobade has kept that in front of me as we have shared on the .350's. Maybe skipe could help him to tutor me [smilie=l:

My limited exposure to smaller bullets leads me to again ask the question about the Loverin style bullets/moulds and what else is out there that could be sized to work?

Other than punching paper, I would consider hunting whitetail here in Michigan, as a number of years ago, the minimum caliber restriction was dropped from the regs. as far as ml long guns goes.

[skullmount]

This may be of assistance. Look through the links on the page.

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/shooting/index.htm

http://inforumer.com/Top/Recreation/Guns/Shooting/History/050641/

Thanks Ric,

I have been to a number of those sites, but there are more that I have not seen.
I'll do more reading later today.......on the way to Hillsdale College to bring the "baby" home for CHRISTmas break.

[Redleaf]

You've already used the .35 cals, so a 32 or a 30 mould is going to do the same thing. 1. Pick a barrel, 2, pick a bullet, 3, get to work. :) You aint going to find an instruction manual for this. You're going to write it. It will work though, you already know that. To answer one of your questions, or rather to inject another "opinion" I dont belive the twist rate is going to have any bearing on fouling. And as one of the other guys posted, the answers to all your questions and more will be found on the slug gun range at Friendship. THose guns are fully capable of 2moa out to 600yds.

[Good Cheer]

Good Cheer,
Ha! OK, I'll bite ...... What is the difference? A safety is a mechanical device that can fail. A loaded gun is a loaded gun, enter the human factor and the potential for an accident I would think would be the same for either rifle.

Pete

I was thinking about being able to close the H&R action after loading. It would be easier to finagle than with my No.3. Also the exposed hammer of the H&R could be blocked.
Muzzle loading the 45 Colt H&R should be real easy because of the short length. Probably be about like shooting one of the carbines from the 1860's.

[scrapcan]

451 Pete,

Thanks for the explanation. I had been trying to figure out in my own mind the differences from what I was reading.

To all, I would like to say thanks for offering the info you have it is making for good reading, more learning, and formulation of new projects.

[excess650]

I'm going to suggest (WARN) that if you are planning to do this(muzzle load) with cartridge rifles that you seat the bullet to a specified depth FIRST, and then insert your charged case behind the boolit.

With a tapered boolit, or two diameter boolit, patched or GG, it can be loaded from the breech as fixed ammunition.

The difference between doing this with a trued MLer and a cartridge rifle is that the primer or cap is the last item added with a MLer. Using a primed, charged case and loading the boolit from the muzzle is just begging for trouble.

Do what you want, I'm done preaching.

[Good Cheer]

By the way, probably repeating myself but my .458 bore rifle is a TC New Englander with the 26" barrel sleeved by Bobby Hoyt. In essence it's just a single shot 45-70 that doesn't use brass.
This shows a little gas cutting from not using enough wad under the gas check base.

http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy192/SNARGLEFLERK/FiredBullet.jpg

http://s791.photobucket.com/albums/yy192/SNARGLEFLERK/?action=view&current=catchthebullet.mp4

My other boolit rifle is a Lyman GPR with a fast twist .40 caliber barrel by Ed Rayl.

[451 Pete]

Nobade and Skullmount,
After reading what was posted last night and this a.m. now I can see what you are trying to accomplish. I was thinking from the early posts what you were trying to make was something more along the lines of re- creating a particular style of a traditional rifle from the past.

I might have a cheap and easy way out for you. Something that I have thought of doing is making a long range muzzle loading rifle by using a .45 cal. black powder cartridge bullet barrel from Green Mountain on a used TC Renegade with a junk barrel. This would allow you to use all of the TC parts except the original barrel as both the Renegade and the GM barrel are 1 inch across the flats. GM also makes BPC barrels for .38 and .32 with the same 1 inch across the flat dim. so I see no reason why the same could not be done using the smaller cal. barrels.

My choice of the Renegade to build this on is mainly because of these rifles having the flat shotgun butt style of stock which would be a bit better suited for heavy recoil ( in a .45 with it's 500 + grain bullets). Also everything is set up for a 1 inch barrel and this rifle has a patent breech which is a lot stronger than a drum and nipple set up for any bullet gun.

BTW the GM barrel for the 32-40 is set up with a 1 -14 twist. I would either use paper patch or go to a custom mold as the small bullet molds for modern cartridges do not hold very much lube.

Pete:coffeecom

[skullmount]

I'm going to suggest (WARN) that if you are planning to do this(muzzle load) with cartridge rifles that you seat the bullet to a specified depth FIRST, and then insert your charged case behind the boolit.

With a tapered boolit, or two diameter boolit, patched or GG, it can be loaded from the breech as fixed ammunition.

The difference between doing this with a trued MLer and a cartridge rifle is that the primer or cap is the last item added with a MLer. Using a primed, charged case and loading the boolit from the muzzle is just begging for trouble.

Do what you want, I'm done preaching.


That was not the idea, I have read about that being done. I have no intrest.

As far as cost goes, a barrel liner slid into another like this; http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=73601&highlight=simple+barrel+liner

is an option / direction that is tugging really hard on me.
I have a swing block Rem. Genesis with a marginal barrel that would work as a donor. I would look at modification of the breechplug to accept a 32 sp or 25 acp for a primer.

I really need to spend some more time with the bullet/mould stuff and find something that will cast out at or just above the bore size. (in pure lead)

[skullmount]

Been bullet searching.

Anyone cast this one in almost pure lead ?? Wondering about shrinkage
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=118144&highlight=lyman+311407

[skullmount]

:roll:

Hope this brings a :) to you guys as it did me.

I e-mailed a friend, one that built my first .350 ml with the fast twist the following;


Larry,
Do you have any moulds that throw a bullet in the .315 to .320
diameter area that weigh over 170 grains and are plain or Loverin
style base..and throw in a partridge in a pear tree too ...
Man there are so many bullets in that .310 to .325 area it makes my head spin
I like the looks of the Lyman 311407

Carl

And his response;

I dont have anything much in that range. I've got a .338 Lee and a Lyman that throws a .311 of about 160or 170 grains in #2 alloy. You need to give paper patching a try. As soon as I get time, I'm going to get back at that with the underhammer gun that I put a .40 cal
1:16 twist barrel on. I've got a pp mould that is adjustable from about .9" up to 1.5" that throws a .392" bullet. With 25# paper, it patches up to .3995 or .400 depending on how tight you wrap the patch.
I'm tellin ya Carl, the .40's are where its at. Skads of moulds,
and standard barrels from every manufacturer. You're like a salmon,
swimming upstream with those little pipsqueek guns. Go on and build yourself a sub-caliber .14 muzzleloader and be done with it. Then you
can rejoin the practical/sensible world. :)
Larry

[Underclocked]

Since I know both of you - I have to agree with Larry and the smile. :)

[Nobade]

Haha - Sounds like Larry has been here and already done it, huh? I'm with Skullmount still though, I want to see what a 32 caliber bullet firing rifle will do. I also have a rusted bore TC Patriot that might be interesting to reline to something smaller. (Have to do a bit of sleeving on the breechplug on that one to make it work but that shouldn't be hard.)

And yeah, that #311407 looks like it would work quite nicely. Especially if the gascheck shank were opened up.

[skullmount]

Haha - Sounds like Larry has been here and already done it, huh?
And yeah, that #311407 looks like it would work quite nicely. Especially if the gascheck shank were opened up.

nobade,
Yes he has. I would get a PB mould.

Gents,

I contacted Mike at TJ's barrel liners yesterday. I asked him if he could hammer a liner to 1/2 inch OD instead of the 9/16 that he offers (2 are 9/16 and the other is 1/2 OD)

of the things I listed;

Barrels that are available & might work ???
.32-20, bore is .305, groove is .312, twist is 16
.32-40, bore is .315, groove is .323, twist is 16
.32spec, bore is .315, groove is .321, twist is 14

I would really like the 14 twist................ if I did the math right, The greenhill formula works out to just over 15 for the 311407, , but I think I would like to try and lean toward something in the 200 grain area and then the 14 would be a closer fit.

If my math is right and the 14 twist can't be hammered down to 1/2 inch, what will I be giving up as far as bullets I could possibly use if I have to go with the 16 twist....or as I asked in my first post, Am I all wet ? (rich, don't answer that) ;-)

Thanks again

[badgeredd]

skullmount,

We have a forum member that may be of some help in your quest. He has tried something very similar in a custom under-hammer pistol. I 'spect he'll chime in soon as I sent him a message about this thread. Unfortunately, I don't know enough details to help but I am sure he will. I do know that he used a barrel with a really fast twist...considering it was for a muzzle-loader.

Edd

[greywuuf]

Well I am going to be Sorta kinda trying this out, as I am putting together an underhammer, and possibly re-boring a barrel for it myself, I have about 10 pounds of #0 buck ( or is it #00 ...at any rate it is the .323" or there abouts stuff) that I plan on shooting out of it one at a time....I will eventually run out, so I plan on a fast enough twist to handle Boolits as well as Balls. maybe by summer time I will have something usefull to add ;-)

[451 Pete]

Skullmount,
You may want to keep in mind that the Greemhill formula is sort of a rule of thumb. Using black powder and varying the load chain I would think you should be able to stabilize the same bullet with the slower twist rate. You may not be able to drive your bullet quite as hard though and accuracy may suffer a little at longer ranges.

As has been stated here some have shot bullets from what should be a round ball twist and I have shot round balls with light loads in a Tryon Creedmoor .45 cal. with it's 1-20 barrel twist and shallow groove rifling. They were quite accurate out to 50 yds.

Just my thoughts ... Pete

[skullmount]

Pete,

Being a White ml shooter, all are fast twist compared to most, I am familiar with the practice of varying the load chain. I learned a long time ago, "less is more" compared to what most people want to pour down their barrels today.

I have spent a bit of time in the group buy areas and will be looking for some wtt or wtb bullets soon, as I see a few of the moulds/bullets have been run before & some are coming up for production again real soon here :)

Stay tuned, I hope to get a call back from Mike at TJ's today

[451 Pete]

skullmount,
Some random thoughts.
I am familiar with the White rifles. They were very well made, and with the proper bullet, very accurate. Doc White didn't try to re-invent the wheel. He just used what he knew already worked and applied it to his rifles.

A barrel liner is a good option to make what you want, if it is installed properly. I have seen them fail in the past if any voids are left between the liner and the barrel wall they are installed in. In other words it has to be done right.

Something that I would not normally recommend to anyone here that may help in this instance with fouling from the smaller diameter barrel is possibly going to small doses of 4 fg powder. With modern steel and not trying to drive it too hard it should work.

Also, I have a mold in the barn that I bought sometime this past year for making bullets for a Mosin Nagant project that I have been playing with. I believe it is the old Lyman 311466 ( I will have to check .... brain fade. ) I have not cast with it yet as brass for 7.62 x 54r is either expensive or hard to come by. At any rate, I can hook you up with some of these when you get a bit further down the road with this project. Give me your patching papers thickness and I may be able to tailor an alloy, or use pure lead , to get you where you would want to go.

Take care ..... Pete:coffeecom

[skullmount]

Pete,

Thaks for the comments, and the offer on the Lyman 311466 bullets.

Mike from TJ's called this afternoon and he can hammer a liner in, 32spec, bore is .315, groove is .321, twist is 14 in 1/2" O.D. [smilie=w:


Gents,


I could also use some bullets from a Lyman311407 or NOE mould, or similar bullet that casts out at .314 to .320 or so, preferably in as pure lead as anyone is willing to cast or has, for a fair price.

Thanks !

[Good Cheer]

Goodness gracious that sounds like a lot of fun!

[Plastikosmd]

nanuk and good cheer,
The type of loading method you are talking about has been done in the past and is attributed to Harry Pope. Many of the old cartridge schuetzen rifles shot at the range at Walnut Hill used this method of loading. A loaded case is inserted in the chamber and then the bullet is ran down the barrel from the muzzle to just sit on top of the case.

While this method of loading was known to produce some quite accurate groups I do not believe that any modern range will allow it for safety reasons. Think about it. You are pushing a bullet down on a loaded and primed case and relying on your rifles safety while leaning over the muzzle.

just my thoughts ... Pete


Agree this would feel unsafe. My gun that loads this way uses a breech seater to approximate the case. Load with short starter, push it down to the seater then switch out seater for a case. Still doing some smithing on this gun so not a shooter yet
Pic is with short starter in muzzle, seater below rifle. Bresien barrel 32-40 on ballard
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j5/plastikosmd/54062cd9.jpg

[451 Pete]

A very nice rifle and with the Ken Bresien barrel it should shoot very well. Loading and shooting using the breech seater in that method to replace a loaded case should produce some very fine groups while still being safe. The Ballard has a bit of camming action inherent to it's design also so if any light fouling is still in the barrel or pushed down it loading the bullet , it should still lock up. .... good choice. It looks like your pretty close. Like to see how it does.

Pete

[nanuk]

Wow... that looks heavy

is that a "Bench Gun"?

I can see the hazards of seating a boolit on top of a primed/loaded cartridge. Probably never cause a problem, BUT that one time..... there goes the fingers... perhaps the hand.... and if you were Leaning over it.....

[skullmount]

Great looking project !

Would that have a 16 twist ?

[Plastikosmd]

Thx guys, I am more of a heavy rb or slug gun guy. This came to me as is. The action is off a gallery type rifle. Did some research and found the cast action would not have been up to the task, even a 32-40. To be safe I sourced a forged action, fit the old action into the new breech block( wanted to stay w double set). Plan to get it case colored, some additional finish work and should be set. Weight, not sure, this is my lightest in this type of gun, maybe 25 lbs?
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j5/plastikosmd/f8c87414.jpg

[skullmount]

[smilie=w:[smilie=w:

Came home yesterday and a box from TJ's was on the kitchen table.

Now to get the liner squared up and cut/fit to length. Then the devcon and breech plug conversion.

;-) ........some bullets on the way :grin: I still need some other bullets to try, something in the .315 to .318 area in lead, 160 to 200 grains

[DIRT Farmer]

Skullmount I checked the mould # is 311-407. The 0.314 sizing die does not quite clean it up. I wieghs in at 190 grns with GC and lube. If you are interested, I will cast a few in pb and see were they come out.
Alan

[skullmount]

Skullmount I checked the mould # is 311-407. The 0.314 sizing die does not quite clean it up. I wieghs in at 190 grns with GC and lube. If you are interested, I will cast a few in pb and see were they come out.
Alan

Thank You ! :bigsmyl2:

[skullmount]

Well just to update, I ordered this mould from Tom at Accurate;
http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=32-205M-D.png

And this one from Al at NOE;
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=134164

I got the liner fitted this evening. Descriptions are above pics. Sorry about the glare/focus issues.

Squaring up the liner.
http://i39.tinypic.com/2ed3uxv.jpg

Masking tape for length.
http://i41.tinypic.com/23uvaea.jpg

For length, flush with muzzle.
http://i44.tinypic.com/xzts4.jpg

Again.
http://i39.tinypic.com/29zaez4.jpg

[Underclocked]

Carl, don't forget a smaller ramrod. ;)

[skullmount]

Carl, don't forget a smaller ramrod. ;)

UC,
A couple weeks back I stopped in to see Anson Morgan at Kenockee Trading Post in Avoca, MI
We had "show & tell", I took 1 of those pretty White shotguns to show him, the broken Javelina and we talked about "this" project. I picked up a loading rod w/ muzzle thingy with the intention of buying it and a jag.................he talked me out of it. He was concearned that the brass muzzle thingy would slide right off the end of the rod & over the jag.......also wanted to "size" the jag for the patch & bore........... I agreed to go back and see him once its together and we might even throw a few boolits downrange.

For any of the guys that live within the "I'll drive that far for great service & good advice" check him out.

[Underclocked]

Maybe he could make you some inserts for the current thimbles so the little rod won't be banging around and falling out?? Or he might have some smaller thimbles that would work.

Does that insert fit right up against the breech plug facing?

[skullmount]

Maybe he could make you some inserts for the current thimbles so the little rod won't be banging around and falling out?? Or he might have some smaller thimbles that would work.

Does that insert fit right up against the breech plug facing?

UC,

My thought was inserts......Larry put an insert in the thimble of the S91 .350 he put together for me. If the nylon I saw today was black, I might have been tempted to make them. Need to find some black stuff somewhere.

Yes the insert is flush with the plug face.

[skullmount]

After going to Lowes, Home Depot and a local hardware I got back at the liner project.
Again descriptions are above pics.
Roughing the liner up.
http://i39.tinypic.com/ng3xgk.jpg

Not sure if it will show, but I used a hacksaw to “cut” a spiral on the liner.
My purpose/thinking was to turn the liner as I put it in so the epoxy would be pushed down with the liner as it went in.
http://i41.tinypic.com/2zppb1k.jpg

I cleaned the donor and the barrel liner with brake cleaner.
http://i42.tinypic.com/2j42e86.jpg

This is a small cork in the breech end of the liner. The breechplug was coated with oil and screwed in place, no pic of that.
http://i39.tinypic.com/120hzyu.jpg

Devcon mixing.
http://i42.tinypic.com/edr0x.jpg

Muzzle taped and liner coated with epoxy.
http://i44.tinypic.com/6fmgzt.jpg

Cork in muzzle of liner. Liner set.
http://i40.tinypic.com/11i0fbr.jpg

Now we wait :-)

[skullmount]

Moulds came today……[smilie=p:

I have to go out on ice patrol and most likely spread salt… :|

Hope to cast some tomorrow...................... :cbpour:

[451 Pete]

Well it looks like you might be in business .... now the fun part starts!

( Temps here are dropping .... 60 here this morning with 4 inchs of rain. ..... glad it wasn't snow. )

Take care ..... Pete

[skullmount]

pete,

Just came in from salting, the temp is hanging right around freezing out there now and some $now in the air. Looks like most of that will pass though.

It rained most of the night here and off and on till about 3pm here.

If it would have been $now, I would be out there for quite some time.

Looks like tomorrow for casting, but thats OK too.

[DIRT Farmer]

skullmount I haveabout 50 of the 311-407 cast in x-ray sheilding. PM me your address.

[skullmount]

skullmount I haveabout 50 of the 311-407 cast in x-ray sheilding. PM me your address.


Thank you !!

[skullmount]

I cast some bullets yesterday, with the mould from Accurate.

Cast some in the morning, maybe 50 to 70, kept only 12 or 13, kept getting teeny tiny bubbles in the bottom of the bullet. The edges were crisp and filled, the bubbles were between the edge and the sprue area............just a bit of gas thats not getting out. I did clean the vent lines a bit and cast some more in the afternoon, cast 40 or so kept about a dozen again. Getting better ! The front hole (2 cavity mould) seems to cast most of the keepers. I talked to a friend about it and he said I am being too picky............send some downrange and see what they will do.
We'll see !

& yup I did flux a number of times ;-)

[451 Pete]

Carl,
You might make sure the screw holding the sprue plate is snug and make sure you pour a full ladle each time .... it will help force any air out of the mold. Leave a large sprue. As long as the edges are crisp and weights the same they should still be alright to shoot.
Getting closer .....

take care .... Pete

[skullmount]

Pete,

Yep on the comments....have tried all suggestions, except for one that a guy mentioned, pour more slowly, maybe later today after :coffeecom

Its in the single digits out there this morning, so I don't see myself fooling around with shoothig today. I need to get some powder measured out in the different kinds I have to be ready to go when it warms up a bit. I will also try to get more cast up later today from the NOE mould too.

Carl
edit/update

Got out early, plugged the pot in, then measured out some 20 grain vials of powder

Teeny tiny bubbles solved :D :D ...........I cast some this morning and figured out that this mould from Accurate does NOT like bullplate lube........ the other times I have used bullplate (other moulds) I have never had a problem.........after a bit of casting good bullets, I used a Q-tip to apply some bullplate...........bubbles again !

I set that mould aside and got the NOE that casts the 152 grainer (listed weight).........they cast out at .3145 to .315


:) ;)

[skullmount]

Well, I could not stand it...........I just had to shoot [smilie=w:

I put a scope on the gun and went out and shot about 10 or so times to get on paper and pretty close to the bull..........near the end of that my hands were getting numb :veryconfu

Fouling was not bad with 20 grains of 3f Swiss

[451 Pete]

Carl,
I knew it. You had to try it out! I'd of done the same, even if I had to load it in the house and then step outside the back door to cap and fire.

OK ... The 209 primer may have helped keep the fouling down.

How many shots till you had to run a patch? Lube on bullet? ... type of lube? , wad below powder?... or not?, type of wad?, any signs of leading when you cleaned it?

Carl what I am getting at is to write it all down and keep a log.

Take care .... Pete

[tomme boy]

Why are you using 209 primers? That primer is about as strong as the 20grs of powder. I would switch it to #11's or at least a musket. I think it will be way more accurate also.

[scrapcan]

I I am reading things right, he is using a Remington Genesis swingblock inline that uses 209 primers for ignition as the platform he set a liner in. That kind of makes the 209 use rather important.

[tomme boy]

If that is true, I would be getting the 209 adapter to use small pistol primers. They are made way better than any 209 primer. The 209 is going to have too much power to use this the way he wants it to work.

[skullmount]

Why are you using 209 primers? That primer is about as strong as the 20grs of powder. I would switch it to #11's or at least a musket. I think it will be way more accurate also.

tomme boy,

just lazy and or cheap ;)

I am using the 209, in this instance to just get on paper and close to the bull :-)

I have a plug that I cut for the 25 acp (case)that uses the small pistol primer mentioned. For accuracy, as you mentioned.

I'll see if the 209 will push one of the lubed bullets and a cardboard wad out of the barrel as a test........never miss an opportunity for a little R & D

With the bullets I am useing a #11 or musket nipple would get burned out really fast

[skullmount]

Did that test with the 209 primer as the propellant. .060" cardboard wad
NOE bullet 316466, weight with lube close to 162 or 3 grains
Length before .886” After .726”
Nose before .301” After .355”
Shot at the back of a phone book at 5 to 6 feet. Bullet bounced out on the garage floor about 6 to 8 inches in front of phone book
There is a 44 page supplement in the back, last page in listings portion is 470, pages still torn at 240. Torn pages (274) plus back cover of book. I could still feel a dent for quite a few pages behind that ;)

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/315_209_phone_book.jpg

[tomme boy]

Try a Federal 209mag if you have any. They are suppossed to be the hottest. Unreal just the power of a primer!

[skullmount]

skullmount I haveabout 50 of the 311-407 cast in x-ray sheilding. PM me your address.

Came today Thanks !!

you too Pete

[skullmount]

Yesterday I had an afternoon of travel and visiting Williams Gunsight and on to Kenokee Trading Post.

I lucked out, Anson from Kenokee TP said, because he had his lathe all set up for 32 jags.

He had to cut down the back of the jag just a touch to fit the .315.
In this pic I have the bore guide slid up to the jag.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/541/medium/315_jag_pic_002.jpg


Now to find/cut some patches that will work.... [smilie=1:

[DIRT Farmer]

Carl did you find some wads? For some reason I have a bag of 1/8 .32 felt wads in the bottom of one of my shotgun boxes that "at this time" I don't have a known need.

[skullmount]

Carl did you find some wads? For some reason I have a bag of 1/8 .32 felt wads in the bottom of one of my shotgun boxes that "at this time" I don't have a known need.

Alan,

No I did not. Neither shop had any that small.

If you are willing to part with them. pm me what you want in $$ or exchange.

Thanks, Carl

[skullmount]

Update;

I drilled and tapped the breechplug for the .315, 25 acp (1/4 – 20), I picked up stainless capscrews. It threads into the barrel side of the plug and once seated, goes into the 25 acp case about 350 thou. Smallest drill I had was 1/16”, good thing I had more than 2!
Pics just to give an idea of what I did. No the screw is not all the way in, I guess I should have taken another pic. It goes in .150" further than the bottom of the plug.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/541/medium/315_25_acp_plug_001.jpg

http://www.hunt101.com/data/541/medium/315_25_acp_plug_002.jpg


I tested it today, NOE 316466 (I think thats the #)with 20 grains 3f Swiss, the first 2 had to be pulled with diagonal pliers. They were sticking on the 1/4-20 threads. So i chucked it up in the lathe and took a few thou. off of the threads for the last half inch or less (end in case)
Tested another, worked fine. All in all I am pretty happy :bigsmyl2:
Very little blow-by & it goes off like a centerfire

[skullmount]

Took the .315 out this afternoon.
Did not have such an easy time with the 25 acp cases today, had to coax them out with some diagonals after shooting.
I shot 4 at 50 yards to be sure I was on paper. (QR bases used with scope)
Then shot at 100 yards with the Accurate bullet and 22 grains 3f Swiss, see pic.

I knew I was not holding well enough for a cloverleaf but I felt better than the holes showed………in frustration I decided to bump up the charge. I only had the 22 grains measured out in plastic vials, so I poured 1 in and guessed at half of the next one. So I know I was somewhere between 30 – 35 grains 3f Swiss, see pic again

Next time out will be 35 or so grains ..........

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/315_25_acp_plug_004.jpg

[rhbrink]

I've been watching this thread with interest glad to see you are getting results. Looking at the picture the 22 grains is tipping very badly and even looking at the 35 grains looks like they are tipping too kind of hard to tell for sure, need more powder. My 2 cents worth anyway.

[skullmount]

I've been watching this thread with interest glad to see you are getting results. Looking at the picture the 22 grains is tipping very badly and even looking at the 35 grains looks like they are tipping too kind of hard to tell for sure, need more powder. My 2 cents worth anyway.

Thanks for your input !


I did notice the holes as I walked back from the 100 yard log out back.

I posted same at a board where the White ml guys hang out and another friend mentioned the holes also. I do have some more vials with 35 grains loaded in them..................maybe I should reset my measure to 40 and load 5 or 10 of those too.

[451 Pete]

carl ,
The last group looks good but you need to work out the extraction problem with the .25 cases.... unless you want to carry pliers for an extractor with you to the range and in the woods. What do you think is going on there?

Pete

[skullmount]

carl ,
The last group looks good but you need to work out the extraction problem with the .25 cases.... unless you want to carry pliers for an extractor with you to the range and in the woods. What do you think is going on there?

Pete

Pete,

I think the hole I cut in the breechplug is smaller at the mouth than inside the hole............wobble on my drill I 'spect. I plan to get another plug and talk to a friend about a ream.

carl

[skullmount]

Carl did you find some wads? For some reason I have a bag of 1/8 .32 felt wads in the bottom of one of my shotgun boxes that "at this time" I don't have a known need.

Wads came in todays mail Alan !

Thanks again !



I am also working on another breech plug liner........try and try again :neutral:
need a touch hole around .025"

I'll get it

[tomme boy]

What was the twist on this? Could it be a little slow? That might be why they are a little unstable.

[DIRT Farmer]

Finaly got them to you Carl, got cought up with w**k and sneaked off hunting.
Alan

[skullmount]

What was the twist on this? Could it be a little slow? That might be why they are a little unstable.



Its 1 - 14"

[skullmount]

Yesterday I had an afternoon of travel and visiting Anson from Kenokee Trading Post. I showed him the "old plug" and we talked about how I could possibly do another. Last evening and some this evening I cut and polished a new plug for the 25 acp cases. Had to recut about .010" deeper after the first fit. This one has a smaller flash hole than the last, I hope the cases won't swell as much as before with this plug.
Hope to pull the trigger a few times tomorrow, to see what it will do. :D

[skullmount]

:D :D :D

no targets to post

shot the .315 today

that new plug I cut and polished has no blowback !!! the 25 acp cases are clean and shiny other than a tenny ring at the mouth of the case

fouling at the breech end of the barrel was hard to get out when we got done, even though we swabbed between each shot...............................

8-) 8-) 8-)

[Nobade]

That's great to hear you got it to work! That makes it pretty neat to shoot without having crud blow all over. I bet it is more accurate with the 25 ACP cases as well, those shotgun primers are just too powerful.

What if you let it soak with some water in the bore and a fired case for a while before you take it apart to clean? That usually helps to make it easier to clean.

[skullmount]

What if you let it soak with some water in the bore and a fired case for a while before you take it apart to clean? That usually helps to make it easier to clean.

Thanks Nobade !!

Did not even think about that. I'll do that here at home

I was at a friends house, out of town. So I had to clean right there...............at least he had a "hot" water hose.

ps 1 piece plug [smilie=w:

[skullmount]

Short update.

I have shot the .315 a couple of times since I posted last. Loads of 40 or 45 grains 3f Swiss with the wool wads, the "groups" were not as good as the groups with the wads from the .350 that I have to cram into the .315 Needless to say I have an order of .320" card wads coming from TOW

I also did a "test" with some 1.5F Swiss to see if the fouling could be dealt with. Shot 45 grains under a wool wad and the Accurate 210 grainer. Used 2 wet followed by 1 dry patch, the same as I have been using with the 3f. Looks like the 1.5 f will be an option as I work up loads too :smile:

[skullmount]

Wads came today from TOW
Target placed on the 50 yard bullet trap
I did not feel like walking out to the 100 yard log and I was in a bit of a hurry............the 2 that are outside are..... well simply my own fault for not backing down and not taking another breath when I should have :oops: :oops:
These seem to be flying a bit better with the thicker wads. All but 1 were with 40 grains 3f, the other was 45 3f

http://www.hunt101.com/data/541/medium/315_thick_wads.jpg

[DIRT Farmer]

Carl it looks like they are starting to like each other.
Please keep up dating.

[StrawHat]

From the looks of the target, things are starting to come together. It took me a while but I just read through the entire thread. Interesting ideas in here.

For those not inclined to read the whole thing, a picture of the rifle and a brief recap might help.

[skullmount]

From the looks of the target, things are starting to come together. It took me a while but I just read through the entire thread. Interesting ideas in here.

For those not inclined to read the whole thing, a picture of the rifle and a brief recap might help.

Thanks for the :idea:

I'll consider that.
I am on my way out to a meeting, I'll have more time later to put "something" together

:smile:

[scrapcan]

Skullmount,

I was wondering if you had the room to use a 32 S&W or 32 acp case instead of the 25acp? The rim on the 32 s&w might make things much easier. You could just use a small pick to get under the rim if need be. I have a passel of 32 s&w if you would like to try another breech plug.

[skullmount]

Skullmount,

I was wondering if you had the room to use a 32 S&W or 32 acp case instead of the 25acp? The rim on the 32 s&w might make things much easier. You could just use a small pick to get under the rim if need be. I have a passel of 32 s&w if you would like to try another breech plug.

Thanks for the offer. I don't think the stock plug has enough "meat" to cut out for the 32, I had considered that also.

[skullmount]

Recap of where we've been..................;-)

Here is a picture of the rifle;
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/315_genesis_004.jpg
And a picture of the swing block, with breech plug removed;
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/315_genesis_005.jpg

I took the Remington Genesis 50 caliber ml and slid a barrel liner into it....
32spec, bore is .315, groove is .321, twist is 14

I cut the breech plug to use a 25 acp case for a primer, rather than the using the 209 setup

I ordered this mould from Tom at Accurate;
http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=32-205M-D.png

And this one from Al at NOE;
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=134164

Range Rod from Kenokee Trading Post.
He had to cut down the back of the jag just a touch to fit the .315.
In this pic I have the bore guide slid up to the jag.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/541/medium/315_jag_pic_002.jpg


As of late I have found the best groups so far with around 40 grains 3f Swiss with a .125 card wad on top, and capped with the Accurate 210 grainer.

I have shot at 200 yards a couple weeks back and had 4 of 5 shots in an area 6" wide by 3" tall. ( in a 4X6 under the target, that was supporting the board the target was on)

I have only shot the NOE bullets once and I was having blowback issues with my first plug, I was able to use them to get the scope close to the middle of the target !!!

[Squeeze]

Any more on this? Im a small caliber ML nut too, have a few fast twist .32-.36 in development.

[Saxtonyoung]

The smallest fast twist caliber I have messed with is 40 cal with 1-16 twist. I bought 3 BPCB from Green Mountain about 12 years ago all 40 cal. And 1" across the flats.

Barrel #1 I kept full length and fitted to a Renegade and had Mountain Molds make me a slip fit bullet of 360 grains - back then they would make BP molds. I never shot this gun over 200 yards but has proven to be very accurate.

Barrel #2 I foolishly sold on eBay.

Barrel # 3 I dropped off to Anson Morgan at Kenockee Tradin' Post last week to also fit to a Renegade ,but this time cut to 24".

All of my shooting with the first barrel has been with a globe front sight and a TC tang peep.

[54bore]

You guys do realize this thread was started Dec 15, 2011 right? lol

[GoexBlackhorn]

Skullmount
Did you get your Swiss FFF from Kenokee Trading Post? Been looking for it - plus Olde Eynsford near Detroit and no such luck.

[Squeeze]

You guys do realize this thread was started Dec 15, 2011 right? lol
Yep, and I also see the posters still around, thats why I was curious for updates. And as I said, I have several similar customs in load development now. A 14 twist .36 cal that can shoot a 300 grainer accurately for farther than I can find range locally, and similar posts peek my interest

[54bore]

Yep, and I also see the posters still around, thats why I was curious for updates. And as I said, I have several similar customs in load development now. A 14 twist .36 cal that can shoot a 300 grainer accurately for farther than I can find range locally, and similar posts peek my interest

Squeeze, lets hear more about that .36 Cal, that one INTRIGUES me!!

[Squeeze]

http://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=26443&p=201806#p201806 http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=36-270L-D.png 28"oregon barrel, .360/.367, 1-14 twist. So far, Im shooting 40-50 grn black. Weather here has been crappy, and the season is just winding down. Ill start shooting again in a few weeks.

[Squeeze]

A lot of this comes from Whites "varminter" rifle that they won the friendship manufacturers match with in 2007. http://whitemuzzleloading.com/docs-designs-inventions/ (scroll down to Varminter rifle) Basically a .375 barrel (.368/.375) 1-16

[54bore]

Squeeze, That sounds like a fun one to shoot! Tho nothing like what you have, I ended up finding a TC Seneca 36 Cal, it is my 'Go to' fun rifle to shoot!! Load Data from my TC manual for The Seneca starts at 40 Grains 3F and Max is 60 Grains, according to TC 60 Grains of 3F will push a 65 grain round ball at 2150 fps, With 667 Ft. Lbs of Muzzle energy, If one looks in to it, this doubles a 22 Magnums 300 Ft Lbs, And the .22 Magnum is one serious BAD DUDE! The .22 Mag is the preferred choice of most professional Butchers that kill beef and hogs daily (I did this for awhile with my dad, and know first hand) its amazing the power of a little .22 Magnum, hit a 1500 pound beef between the running lights and they drop like a sack of taters! And to think the little 36 Cal muzzleloader DOUBLES the energy of the .22 Mag just AMAZES me!!

[Good Cheer]

Heh, reckon anybody is paper patching 6.5's to load in a .270 barrel?
:razz:

[Saxtonyoung]

Doc White has been an inspiration to me as well, although you can read his book online (The White Muzzleloading System )I have a hard copy of it and have read it several times.

Looking back now I'm sorry I didn't pick up some smaller caliber barrels when Green Mountain was still producing them.

[Saxtonyoung]

Small caliber muzzleloaders don't get as much attention as the larger ones do. In his book Doc White shows a 300 lb Sika deer he shot at 60 yards using a .331 cal with a 240 gn. Bullet. He also states that it's very accurate at the 200 yr range. For the average deer hunter such as myself that would be ample power with minimum recoil and use of powder.

[Newtire]

Why don't you go to page 1 of the muzzleloading forum, look at the topics, read any that look related, then go to page 2, and so on.

There are several thousands of pages in this forum if you bother to look. It is like reading an informative book, a page at a time. I know that I have many M/L posts on the 32 caliber muzzleloading rifles going back ten years or better and many others here have such posts .

As an alternative, you could learn to operate the search function and set your specific parameters for a search.


The smaller caliber guns you love, as in 32 caliber in a muzzloader are not fast twist, typically the 1/48 is fastest and they are round ball guns.

The calibers and twists you listed are for cartridge guns, where the projectile is an elongated lead or jacketed bullet, loaded from the breech, AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT FIREARM.

After you read enough you may have viable questions at that time. Right now, they appear unintelligible.

Baron von TrollwhackHey BVT, as a poster back on the old Aimoo board, it was somewhat disconcerting to go over and have a look at the muzzleloading area and see a post like yours. Here a guy comes on to ask a question and this is the kind of answer he gets. You might consider asking him for a bit of clarification rather than ranting all over the poor guy. There was a day when a noobe could ask a question on here without being lectured to. C'mon, give a guy a break!