Marlin Damage Control?

[Gtek]

Just picked a new Rifle Jan 2012 magazine. The State of Marlin Firearms page 28, and it appears to me IMHO they are feeling it. I will admit at fifty I am probably a little cynical. The writer tells you how some of the "experienced " employees CHOSE to retire, much of the tooling was replaced with more modern and efficient CNC machinery, which potentially will yeild a better product. This is the one that made me run up the bull**** flag- Programs and blueprints had to be rewritten, as many of the drawings were dated back 60 plus years and were not suitable for CNC tooling. 2011 minus 60 equals 1951. Did some one make .020" not .020" since then? Opinions are like----- everybody has one. Mine- I pick apart everyone I handle and tell everyone who is interested in the Marlin, run, run, run, back to 07 or earlier to have a chance at happy. I have more than a couple, love them, yes. I hate to see greed win, the fine people whose lives have been changed for an increased profit. I guess we should get used to it. Gtek

[Dutch4122]

I was disappointed in Brian Pierce for authoring that article. He's been pretty much the only reason I'd kept my subscription to Rifle/Handloader active. Now I'm not so sure.

[jblee10]

Haven't seen the article yet. But Marlin is a company that I do not want to see die. I've never been a fan of their 22's. But I've had a couple older 30-30's and bought a new 444 about 6 years ago. I had to work on the extractor a little to get it to work the way I wanted, but I still think it is a great gun.

[9.3X62AL]

I don't think I've seen any Marlin products from the new facility, but the concerns about QC caused me to go Miroku/Win 92 for a 44 Magnum levergun recently. It cost more, but I couldn't be happier with fit, finish, and overall initial quality. NOW--if the &%$# doctors would get outta my grill, maybe I could SHOOT the thing and really enjoy it.

Ahem.

Marlin better understand that they are NOT the only lever rifle builder "out there", and that consumers have expectations of the finished products. Fall short in a significant way, and you'll be history.

[6pt-sika]

I pick apart everyone I handle and tell everyone who is interested in the Marlin, run, run, run, back to 07 or earlier to have a chance at happy.

Outta the 25+ Marlin's I own at present ALL but ONE were made before 1976 !

And I wouldn't have the one from 2001 if I didn't wanna shoot 400 grainers in a 444 and needed a fast twist ballard rifled barrel !

[rtracy2001]

Having to redraft drawings for use with new equipment is quite common and has little to do with the actual toleance and everything to do with the order of operations and the format of print.

CNC machines require that a dedicated electronic "model" of the part be created, usually in a 3D type environment. Dimensions must be referenced not only from the correct feature (reference) but in the right order. With a flesh and blood machinist you can give him a paper print, and he will generally choose the order of operations that best suits his technique to make the part, stopping periodically to check the part against the print, and maybe repositioning the part or changing from a mill to a lathe and back. CNC machines can't do that, they have to have a program (made by their flesh and blood operator) that will allow the machine to make the part without once stopping to check dimensions or (in an ideal situation) adjust how the part is held in the machine. Once you have this model and program the CNC machine can produce high quality parts faster and with fewer rejects than a traditional machinist. No the part won't have the same love or pride of workmanship, but it will funtion.

[frnkeore]

I too, hope Marlin will survive. But, it doesn't look good. And yes, I'm sure a lot of the staff were layed off permantly because of the move, I'm sure some quit because they were told they'd have to take salary cuts and the same with the retiries.

But, this is the way it is in big business, ONLY the dollar counts and quaility is second!!! Queeze the employee and quality to get those big bonuses

Frank

[MGySgt]

Anytime a company moves from point A to point B a good portion of the employees do not move with the company - Why??? - They don't want to move - they have lived in that area all their life (no matter age) and while the company has offered them the same job at the same pay they don't want to move away from family and friends.

Seen it more times than I want to remember - good people that MAY be making a bad decision in today's environment.

Just my $.02 worth!

[1Shirt]

It will be interesting to see what time proves. Right now it is all conjecture.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[hornsurgeon]

once again an article is written to sell products, not to do an honest evaluation. if i wanted that i would watch infomercials

[starmac]

Anytime a company moves from point A to point B a good portion of the employees do not move with the company - Why??? - They don't want to move - they have lived in that area all their life (no matter age) and while the company has offered them the same job at the same pay they don't want to move away from family and friends.

Seen it more times than I want to remember - good people that MAY be making a bad decision in today's environment.

Just my $.02 worth!

I was in the market for a new pickup in 76 and wanted a ford. I looked at some that had obvious problems. A friend bought one with a terrible rattle, that turned out to be a coke bottle. A salesman friend of mine told me I should wait a year, it seemed ford had moved one of their plants that built the pickups, and many of the employees didn't want to make the move and did all kind of things to hurt ford.
I had friends that were mechanics, that claimed they found lifters upside down and when they would pull the valley pan it would have obcenities painted on the bottom side.
I have wandered if marlin hadn't had some of these problems, as it seems some of their problems have come from the old facility.

[MGySgt]

I have wandered if marlin hadn't had some of these problems, as it seems some of their problems have come from the old facility.


It could very well be - lots of bitterness when a company closes and moves away. Doesn't matter if the offers were there to move with the company or not.

Most people don't like change - and when you have a place where your grand paw and dad worked, now you are working there up and leaves - there is a lot of resentment from the employees.

[ohiochuck]

Certainly hope Marlin survies and comes back better!

[uscra112]

Moving production out of Connecticut to ANOTHER unionized plant is borderline insanity. Furthermore, the Ilion union is in its' own internal turmoil due to it being a division of..... (wait for it)..... The United MINE Workers. http://www.topix.com/forum/city/ilion-ny/TJ0GSR8R7E0ELDF95#comments

The failure to move to a right-to-work state will sink the whole enterprise.

And having been in the machine tool and process control industries most of my career, and having had Ilion on my itinerary many, many times, I wanna tell ya that Ilion is not a hotbed of manufacturing competence. Another Rust Belt town whose intelligent young people flee as soon as possible.

[northmn]

As to the comment about not seeing a new Marlin from the new plant. A sales associate from a local sporting goods store handed me on. It was pretty rough, and should not have been on the floor.

DP

[JIMinPHX]

CNC machines require that a dedicated electronic "model" of the part be created, usually in a 3D type environment.

...If you are generating code from a post processor. If you write your G-code by hand (like I used to do) then you can just look at an old fashioned print & start coding.

[9.3X62AL]

As to the comment about not seeing a new Marlin from the new plant. A sales associate from a local sporting goods store handed me on. It was pretty rough, and should not have been on the floor.

DP

Sorry to read this, sir.

[Chris Smith]

I bought a brand new 336W a few weeks ago and all I can say is the quality seemed fine till I shot it. It feeds and extracts perfect but the best groups I got at 100 yards was in the 5 inch range. I tried cast, jacketed and factory ammo and it will not put two bullets even close to each other. Nothing is consistant. In a bit of bragging on myself I am not a bad shot. I have a 79 vintage 1895 in 45-70 that I have had since I was a teenager and it will put three rounds in a cloverleaf at 100 yards. For any hunting rifle to shoot a best group of 5 inches, off a rest with the forend supported by my left hand, is just not good. Especially since it is brand new. I'm not turned off Marlin's but somewhere along the line something got messed up.

[Gray Fox]

Just for grins, in the current real estate market, I'm sure I could find some kind of job loccally looong before I could ever move and sell this house, and I'm in a "good" neighborhood. This probably had lots to do with the number of employees who stayed where they were. Sometimes the most obvious reason is the correct one. Where you folks live may be different, of course.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

When did sales clerks become "Sales Associates?" Associates describe someone you associate with; and I would wager a yankee dollar that the store manager is not associating with any of the employees unless they are younger and female.

[izzyjoe]

Grey fox, that just about sums it up.

[frnkeore]

Here is how that I look at it..........

1. Does it make any since to close down a company after buying it? Loosing sells and creating problems for old and new customers alike.

2. Was there some reason the Remington couldn't continue making the rifles there? If so, would be a big problem to transistion the plant form there to another area? especially for a company the size of Remington.

3. Would it make since for a large profit orinitated company to to either close up a competitor to increase sales? Maybe with there own new product in the wings, ready to soon be released. Or would it make since to take the new product and out sourse it's manufactor to a overseas company for increased profit?

Only time will tell!!!

I, for sure am not a Remington basher. I own 3 Rolling Blocks, 2, 660's, a XP100, 1 722, 2, 721's, ever one of there pumps with the acception of the 14 1/2 and 1, model 30.

Frank

[MtGun44]

Answers:
1 - in some cases, obviously "Yes". Many gun factories are WAY, WAY outdated and they
cause variable quality and make manufacturing a gun much more labor intensive and in
many cases totally depended on a cadre of highly skilled expert hand workers. Many of these
folks are retiring or already have. I am convinced, after working on the innards of both S&W
and Colt revolvers that the internal designs of the Python, DS, Pol *** revolvers was essentially
hopeless with modern methods without serious skilled hand fitters. S&W has transitioned pretty
well to modern CNC and MIM methods to keep their quality up and rely far less on hand fitting.

2 - My guess is that the plant was in the "rust belt" where many state and local governments
hate guns, have very high taxes, and high labor costs. Note that US car makers with old
labor contracts and union work rules are losing money and producing OK to marginal quality, while
many different foreign makers have built plants in right to work states without union rules
and costs, in lower labor cost areas (workable also due to lower food, fuel, home, land, etc costs
to the employees, so they can live well on lower pay compared to high cost of living places) and
make top quality cars with American labor, and affordable prices. Honda exports some US built
models back to Japan.

3 - No ideas about new products.

It is not BS to say that old hand drawn blueprints have to be reworked TOTALLY to put the
part into a CAD/CAM CNC system. In many cases with guns, there are certain sweeping curves that
have been made with special custom made machines, or hand filed, or similar. To create a
good looking, smooth approximation of some of these shapes (and they are CRITICAL to
making a Marlin look like a Marlin, or a S&W look like a S&W) in a solid modeling system is a LOT of
work by skilled designers at the computer and many test pieces will have to be made to make sure
they look just right.

Also, a +/-.010" tolerance today is meaningless for manufacturing, only useful for inspection.
The machines hold .001 or better almost all the time, but with maybe a tooling slip or something
the inspectors may be able to accept a part with the wider tolerance, but the machine can't really
"relax" the way a person can. In many cases, certain machining 'cuts' were originally done with
a dedicated cam-controlled, and/or single purpose, hand built machine - and now your design team
have to figure out how to make the same (or functionally the same) cut with a 3 axis or 4 axis or
even 5 axis NC machining center. It is not trivial, believe me. I work in a huge facility where we
make some really complex and precise equipment for government applications, and guns in many
cases are about as demanding - at least in some of the critical dimensions. Assuming that they
are not incompetent, the end result should be a very high quality gun, with consistent quality
and the same or probably lower cost. Maybe not lower price, but likely with enough profit to
keep the company in business.

I have also seen many older employees CHOOSE to not move when a company is moved
because they have family, friends, church and maybe shooting range and hunting lease
links in their existing home community and are just unwilling to pull up roots and lose all
of that. This should not be particularly surprising.

I like my Marlins and hope that they do well, and that customers will cut them some slack while they
try to make this work.

Bill

[W.R.Buchanan]

Mt44gun: one of the more rational comments and you are pretty much spot on in your assessment.

I read the article also and I would tend to agree with Brian Pearce that the current lull in production is temporary. He has nothing to gain by fabricating this story, and his credibility is all he has in the journalism world. I doubt he would indulge some corporate puke and put his good name on the line if it was all a lie..

That company had big time UNion problems and many guns came off the line towards the end that were complete krap. I roasted the Marlin Rep for 45 minutes at the SHOT Show two years ago for this problem. What I didn't know is that the plant was in the process of shutting down and the guns were being assembled by many disgruntled employees. Still QC should not have allowed them to be shipped but the QC guys were union and disgruntled too. Which explains why 3 people would have to let a gun go that had the barrel twisted in 5 degrees too far. No body gave a ship! And I told the rep this was exactly what I saw as the problem. He agreed. And believe me he didin't have too. Nobody else was listening to us.

The only cure for this type of scenerio is to dump it, and move on. You can't fix disgruntled employees by just giving them a raise and another day off, the resentment continues long after the strike or whatever the upset. Been there done that and I'm sure many reading this have too. It is just a fact of human nature. Look how long it took to turn Detroit around. It took a completely new generation of workers.

I personally would have preferred that they moved to a RTW state also to avoid the same krap over again, but the other Marlin plant is in a RTW state and if Illion doesn't work out then I'm sure they will move it again.

The problem is in todays world is you can always find someone to make something for less than you're paying now. that's why China is on the upswing.

How would you like a Chinese made Marlin? Don't laugh Rossi is repopping the Marlin levergun right now and it is being advertised in magazines as we speak. The ones I've seen in person were pure Dog Ship!

Freedom Group didn't buy that outfit to run it into the ground. It would have been a waste of millions of $, for nothing, and would have proved nothing as well.. They don't have a competing design for the Lever guns and inexpensive .22's so why kill the brand? There is no logical reason.

I'm sure Marlin will be back, and I'm also sure the products will be better than before. Besides if they still suck, it's not like there aren't plenty of used ones to buy, and that stock alone will outlast most all of us!

Much ado about nothing is my .02 on this reoccuring subject.

Randy

[MtGun44]

I will add, the based on his writing, I think Pearce is an honest guy and smart enough not
to by a bunch of baloney. I have NEVER found any of his advice in articles to be incorrect in any
way, in fact he and Mike V. seem to be the most straight story type writers out there.

W. R. B - are you ex-Navy, by any chance?

Bill

[frnkeore]

MtGun44,
You may be in manufactoring in some capacity but, you don't know machine shop and inspection technology. Like a previous poster I'm a machinist and before retiring 3 years ago I did CNC programing. Graphing compond surfaces, isn't difficult on a CMM (Coordinate Measuring Machine) and transfering that data to the CNC (computorized numerically controled) isn't difficult either. You can actually do most of the programing on a computor before it even gets to the CNC. Tool paths, feeds and speeds (even 4 & 5 Axis) can be done with programs. Only the tooling, set up and any modifications tooling related needs to be done at the actual machine.

Do you believe that all US labors are over payed and would that include yourself. We could (I believe) get the congress to pass a law dictating at all but congress, upper management and CEO's be restricted to minimum wage.

While I'm at it, can you tell me what you would consider a fair profit percentage for a large corporation to make and then, what is fair labor percentage they should pay there non management enployee's? Also, how much of a cut in pay would you, yourself be willing to give a profitable company.

This isn't a personal attack but fair questions to ask if you think that Remington or any other large profitable corporation should queeze there employees to pad there bottom line and inconveniance the buying public. In the end, the public will make that determination.

Guns made in China (or other countrys, in part or whole) that won't shoot (see above) but are profitable in the short run, mean the END to Marlin. Same thing if made by poorly payed (possibly alian) labor. How many here will buy a Chinese made model 336's if that comes to be? Many buy the Japanese Winchesters.

Just my rant, based on being business owner (machine shop) and wage earner both for over 50 years.

Frank

[Gee_Wizz01]

Wouldn't a competent manager ensure that all the new CNC machines were properly tooled and programmed at the new plant location BEFORE you shut down the old plant? I would ensure that I would be able to produce a high quality product at the new location before I closed the old plant. That is just plain common sense.

G

[btroj]

Having the new plant ready first isn't always an option. If the quality of what is coming from the old plant wasn't very good then what is there to lose?
This was a business decision made by people who u derstand business. It wasn't made by fun owners, shooters, machinists, or anyone else lie that. It was made by people looking at how to make a tolerable product at a reasonable cost.
Marlin will be back, that I am certain. Remington is doing what it takes to get Marlin production to fit the Remington model of how things are done.
I understand that some of you understand machine work. I appreciate the knowledge ou have. That does not mean you understand the entire business of producing a product like an entire line of firearms. I can guarantee you it is a complex business. Remington may be revamping which suppliers are used, how things are made, who produces barrels, what steel is used, and who knows what else.

Marlin will be fine. The company was purchased by Remington to make only. Only way to do that is to make a product at a reasonable cost. If that was possible in the old plant Remington would have kept it there. I have to veleive that the guys in charge at Remiton know more about this than we do here. We may be the "experts" on using the gun but they are the experts on making them for a profit.

[Olevern]

When Freedom Group bought out Marlin they instituted "push em out the door" policies where employees had unrealistic goals placed on them for production, based on the Japanese models.
Given the antiquated equipment, and the realities of the handfitting required to produce these guns, the employees were disgruntled, but did the best they could.

It was not good enough for their new employer, who wanted to dramatically increase production (and profits) without investing in modern equipment.

When the decision was made to move the production to Ilion, NY, only a few floor production employees were invited to move with the equipment. They were union emploees making a decent wage. They would have lasted maybe six months, while they taught other, unskilled, cheeper laborers their craft, then they would have been hustled down the road.

I don't blame them that they decided to take their severance and not move.

Like so many other buyouts these days, the new owners are buying the reputation and brand name, then try to figure out how they can amortize their investment in as short a time as possible = no sense of obligation to the employees who built that reputation and brand recognition, no comittment to quality control, just a committment to move product out the door as fast as possible and moving the profit margin upward.

[frnkeore]

Olevern,
Well said, That is the corporate mentality in today world, you see it over and over again, large conglomerates buy other companys rapeing them and if they don't produce HIGH profits after being raped, they close them down and just walk away. There are lots of companys that buy out competitors just to shut them down, too. A case in mind is Tyco, and that happened right here where I live.

Is that what we used to call "The American Way", I think not!! It's a different world today and NOT one I'm proud of.

Frank

[pdawg_shooter]

I was in the market for a new pickup in 76 and wanted a ford. I looked at some that had obvious problems. A friend bought one with a terrible rattle, that turned out to be a coke bottle. A salesman friend of mine told me I should wait a year, it seemed ford had moved one of their plants that built the pickups, and many of the employees didn't want to make the move and did all kind of things to hurt ford.
I had friends that were mechanics, that claimed they found lifters upside down and when they would pull the valley pan it would have obcenities painted on the bottom side.
I have wandered if marlin hadn't had some of these problems, as it seems some of their problems have come from the old facility.

I have been hearing that urban legend since the early 60s. Been around longer than dirt.

[popper]

I don't think any of the posts here are wrong. Follow the money trail. What is important to us, IMHO, is 'are the new ones going to be any good?'. Feedback here and other sites will be important. Change the factory, tooling, design - doesn't matter. Is it what we want and does it work? Also, which ones don't work. Anybody want to start a list? Like autos - let the lemon be somebody else's problem?

[MtGun44]

If you want to just copy by a point cloud, that can work fine, but you still have no real solid
model of the part to use to modify or redesign. All modern production starts with a solid
model and if you are solid modeling an old part, it can be a good bit of work to match old
profiles. I never said it was impossible, and it is not, but if you want to really move the
design into the 20th centruy rather than just bandaid it and make a few, you would put
in the effort to make a solid model rather than just make a CNC file. That works in small
production or for parts that will never change. How do you think S&W can afford to have
so many new models of revolvers and so many amazingly complex sculped barrel designs
on their custom guns? Because the whole thing is in a solid modeler and they can modify
the design quickly and easily and spit out a new NC file to make a few or a million.

As to 'over paid' comment. If I were putting a factory in the US and knew that labor in one
location was going to cost me 50% more than another location, and there would be all sorts
of rules imposed on how I run the business by a union, I would choose the more free and
lower cost location. Just like all the foreign car and ATV companies have done.

Cars and stuff built in the SE US factories by American labor are very high quality and it says that
the workers there are doing a good job. Some of the reason they work for lower wages is
that they pay lower portion of their pay for heating bills, taxes, union dues, rent, mortgage
bills, taxes, gasoline, taxes and OH did I mention taxes? The average hourly worker here makes
about $90K including benefits, but they are skilled workers and in a union.

As to the concept of 'fair profit' what you or I think may make an interesting discussion but is
of no real value. In the large market for investiment capital, people want to get the best
rate of return. An investor usually does not care if he is putting his money into plastic toy
making or guns or cars or yard tools. However, if the yard tool company pays out about
5% profit to shareholders over the years and the plastic toy company pays out 15% - how
easy will it be for the yard tool maker to get funds to replace his aging machines or build
a new factory? In the long run, all these choices are made be people choosing where to
buy and where to invest for their own personal benefit. It's called free choice and a free
market. If not enough people buy a product, it will be gone, sooner or later. One of the
big factors is how much it costs. How many handguns would you own if a quality gun cost
$100 today? How many if they cost $10,000? Not enough people were buying Marlin
stock, and it would certainly be because they were getting less return than they could get
elsewhere. Remington thinks that they can make the same product for a bit less than Marlin
did, and therefore may be able to stay in that business. You can bet Marlin was charging as
much as they could for the guns, but apparently their efficiency wasn't quite good enough
to really throw off enough profit to keep their stock value high enough to keep someone
from thinking that the whole company was a bargain.

Several US states have ZERO income tax. That means they are more likely to get factories
sited there if the factory can go whereever it wants, not always the case. Gas in MO is
50-75 cents per gallon less than Californian or the NE US. Mass has one of the highest
tax loads of any state and they hate guns. I'm surprised ANY gun makers stay in the
NE part of the country. I wonder what fraction of Ruger's production is in Prescott?

Bill

[scb]

Olevern,
Well said, That is the corporate mentality in today world, you see it over and over again, large conglomerates buy other companys rapeing them and if they don't produce HIGH profits after being raped, they close them down and just walk away. There are lots of companys that buy out competitors just to shut them down, too. A case in mind is Tyco, and that happened right here where I live.

Is that what we used to call "The American Way", I think not!! It's a different world today and NOT one I'm proud of.

Frank

It's really nothing new or limited to "today" This very same thing was the down fall of Ithaca Gun Company when they were sold to General Recreation, Inc. in 1967. I'm sure there were others before that. Hell Marlin bought out L.C. Smith and what did they do to them. I'd always been told that it was Remington's purchase of Parker Brothers that wrecked that brand. Frankly if these companies had been on sound financial footing they more than likely wouldn't have been sold in the first place.

[Gunsmoke4570]

When FN relocated Winchester M70 production to the new plant in SC quality was vastly improved. Featherweights we received a year or so before the move were horrible. The ones since the move have been consistently outstanding! I'm hoping the same will be the same of Marlin, but Remington and the group that owns it are not of the same caliber of FN and do business differently. Time will tell.

[Reload3006]

Look what Smith & Wesson did to ALcan. At least for the time being freedom group is still planning to make them. And by the way The freedom group pretty much owns all Us gun manufacturing now. I sure hope they continue. As far as moving .... Are you saying that people in North Carolina aren't US citizens? I sure like them better than Mexicans , and Japanese. I have nothing against people of other countries but I sure would rather see southern US citizens get jobs than the work go out of the country.

[bowfin]

It was made by people looking at how to make a tolerable product at a reasonable cost

Only problem is, no one thinks the product it tolerable. Who wants to risk $650 to buy the first Marlin after the revamp to see if it is tolerable?

[btroj]

No one thinks it is tolerable? Bet many do. They are still selling I am sure.
The vast majority of fun purchases are not by "shooters" but by casual hunters or people who just need/want a gun. These people are not that critical of quality, they just want something that goes bang when the trigger is pulled.

We can sit around and second guess a business's decision and piss and moan about quality or we can wait and see. I prefer to wait and see. I bet the "new" Marlins will be just fine. If not, then I won't be buying them. Sitting here getting worked up over something we can't control seems silly to me.

As for how business operates and profits, do you have a 401K or other retirement accounts? If so then profits are what makes them go up in value. I own stock and mutual funds so I don't ind seeing corporate profits increase, it means I can retire someday. The days where the stock market was the purvey of just he wealthy are gone. Aout every retirement fu d depends on income derived from corporate profits. We don't have to like the system but we do need to understand that it affects almost every one of us.

As my FIL likes to say - business's business is business. Living in the past doesn't make much money.

[frnkeore]

"If you want to just copy by a point cloud, that can work fine, but you still have no real solid
model of the part to use to modify or redesign. All modern production starts with a solid
model and if you are solid modeling an old part, it can be a good bit of work (is there something wrong with work) to match old
profiles."

What I said about copying a firearm was in responce to your idea that there wasn't anything else to go by.

Engineering drawing are not new, I will put money on my contention that Marlins Firearms had such drawings when even the 1893 was design and built. Production parts enterchange ablity came a little before that, even. So, to say the Marlin rifles had to be "hand fitted" isn't true. Hand assembled, sure, many things are still done that way but, not hand fitted. Note here that a 336 barrel will still screw on to a 1893 and will be timed and head spaced right. As me about it.

Three diamentional products are still made with with two dimentional drawings but, now done on a CAD (computer Aided Design) program. My business was making (as a subcontractor) helicopter parts for the Sikorsky S64 of which Erickson Air Crane here in Central Point, OR owns the rights to.

They are a very profitable and now a world wide company but, not in '91 when I started with them. All there drawing came from the 50's when the S64 was developed. They are at least in part, publicly owned and to my knowelge have no trouble finding investers.

If indeed Remington was worried about bringing Marlin into the modern world manufactoring wise. There are working models for that. If you don't want to expend effert to accomplish things, I call that being LAZY and there no reason or place for that! They certainly look down on lazy workers, right? Lazy, in my opinion is also wanting something for nothing. Many large corporations that make high profits, also do illegal things. GE, World Com, Tyco are prime examples of that. GE still exists but, thats because they are a PRIME contractor and only get there hands slapped with a fine, no one goes to jail.

Big business isn't always GOOD business, greed isn't productive and only produces short term (but possibaly huge) gains at the expense of something/someone else.

Frank

[frnkeore]

my last post on this matter.

YES, it is silly to worry about what will happen but w/o dedicated people working at the upper level of a company, it can go to ruin very quickly. I've only owned 2 Marlin levers, my 1893 and a 336 in the 90's but, I own three Marlin Ballards and will bemoan the passing of the brand or if it's made off shore if that happens. I like High Walls but, will never own a Japanese (laughing) Winchester High wall.

No money out of my pocket and it may very well make my guns more desirable in the future. But, money isn't what I live for, I'll take ethics and respect (got to live with yourself if you have a conscience) any day. I never made money in stocks, I've worked for everything I have. I focus on what I want and WORK to get it. Maybe, I'm the last one to do that but, I hope that there are a couple more out there somewhere.

Frank

[Suo Gan]

Most people would be offended if someone else told them what to do with their own money. Who are you to tell someone else that they should not be doing something with their own money? This is a private company.

If you are a former Marlin employee and did not want to be part of Remington. I can understand that, but its time to pick up the pieces and move on.

Face the facts, you would not be worried about this if you were a successful business man. You would be running your own gun company and making money hand over fist. Instead you keep running a good American companies name through the mud because you would have done it differently.

Oh really?

[MtGun44]

You can make guns with a file, or with a manual mill/lathe, or with a 2 axis NC mill/lathe, or with a 5 axis
NC machining center. All will work. The 5 axis center will be the fastest and cheapest and
most consistent, independent of operator skills. The file takes by far the most operator skill, but
look at the magnificent shotguns and double rifles that are still made today, mostly with a file for
final shaping and fitting. Of course, these guns cost $25,000 and up. I can't afford that. Plus
that guy can make probably about 5-10 guns per YEAR.

A 5 axis machining center will produce part after part, VERY quickly, and VERY accurately, with
a high initial investment in machinery but low labor costs, and lower operator skill than the
Holland & Holland filer. To program a part quickly and efficiently for a 5 axis machining center,
a solid model is the best. Can you manually program the thing? Sure, just like you can make
a Wesley-Richards double rifle with a file. Not cheap, not easy to modify, probably not the
best way for new parts.

Can parts be made the old ways? Of course. Not a chance that all of the old ways are
going to be fully gone any time soon. But if you want to make a profit, and improve your
quality while containing costs, the sooner you go fully modern methods, the better.

Henry Ford started it with the assembly line, and made cars affordable compared to the hand
made cars everyone else made.

When you sell to the military, high cost is sometimes not particulary important because there is
no competition, and often the quantities are very small by commercial standards. In the gun
business, when selling to civilians, we can't afford hand made guns (mostly) but we still want
our quality. Automated manufacturing marches on.

Bill

[Olevern]

Visited a gun shop yesterday and found a Marlin model 1895 Cowboy, used, pretty nice condition. Price? $795.00. While this gun is on my short list, I think I will pass at that price. Might have been willing to pay $650.00, but more than $800.00 out the door? I think not. I'm sure they will find some well heeled buyer eventually to buy at their price.

As for business today, they would pay us $2.00 an hour for skilled labor if they could get away with it. That's what comes from opening the greatest economy in the world to foreign markets where the standard of livinig is zip and there are no environmental or safety concerns, it was bound to bring our standard of living down drastically and bring theirs up.

BTW, most of these foreign countries stole American engineering and know how, or were given it by American corps. so that those corps could make more money utilizing foreign labor.

When our manufacturing left and we went to a 'service economy', we were bound to get to where we are now.

[Chihuahua Floyd]

Marlin as we knew it is dead.
I regret the loss, but may or may not ever buy another gun from the Freedom Group.
Can't afford an old Marlin now, don't want what they are now making.
CF

[Reload3006]

as far as Marlin being part of Remington now. I was once a McDonnell Douglass employee. Now I am a Boeing employee never changed jobs and Boeings Checks have cashed just as well as McDonnell Douglass checks did.

[TXGunNut]

It's hard not to miss the old days, old ways and leverguns made with pride and craftsmanship. Those days are gone, they're not coming back. Deal with it. OTOH I'm not employed in a profession that offers a retirement plan so at this point in my life my investments need to make more money than I do. I understand corporate profits and strategies much better than I understand CAD, CAM and CNC processes but I know that they are capable of producing a better product than the old ways. I think Marlin guns will be back, we just need to be patient. They know there's a problem and it appears they're working to resolve it. OTOH my gun buying strategy hasn't changed. If I see a nice levergun on the used gun rack for a reasonable price I'll try to take it home to hang out with others like it. Quite honestly I haven't bought many new guns over the years so Remlin's difficulties don't directly affect me.
There are plenty of nice leverguns out there, we just have to look for them. Bashing Remlins or foreign-built products benefits no one, voting with your wallet is the best way to send a message to a manufacturer. My big concern is that most firearms consumers are not enthusiasts like the folks who post in this area. I worry that there may be enough consumers out there for a mediocre product and the mfgs will be able to be profitable without having to build a product to the level that it takes to satisfy an enthusiast. As much as we love leverguns we need to realize that we are not a major segment of the firearms market. I hope and believe that someday soon we'll see new Marlins on the gun store racks that we can enjoy and be proud of. Time will tell.

[Ed in North Texas]

Moving production out of Connecticut to ANOTHER unionized plant is borderline insanity. Furthermore, the Ilion union is in its' own internal turmoil due to it being a division of..... (wait for it)..... The United MINE Workers. http://www.topix.com/forum/city/ilion-ny/TJ0GSR8R7E0ELDF95#comments

The failure to move to a right-to-work state will sink the whole enterprise.

And having been in the machine tool and process control industries most of my career, and having had Ilion on my itinerary many, many times, I wanna tell ya that Ilion is not a hotbed of manufacturing competence. Another Rust Belt town whose intelligent young people flee as soon as possible.

The problem with moving production to a RTW state (which is generally a good idea) for Remington is - they already have the physical plant in NY. If they had to build a plant, you are absolutely correct that they should have (and probably would have) moved either south or west to a RTW state. But with an existing underutilized plant, they would have been nuts to decide to build a new plant elsewhere. Firearms manufacturing isn't that profitable. The combined revenue (gross income before costs) is about $2 Billion USD for the entire industry. That is limited to small arms production under 30mm. And the industry is a high overhead business, with significant levels of raw materials, and is labor and insurance intensive. The profit margin is hard to come by, but some years back I read something like $146 Million USD profit for the entire industry. For comparison, McDonalds annual revenue is about $20 Billion USD and the fast food industry as a whole is something on the order of $120 Billion USD.

[Freischütz]

For a slightly different version of this see:

http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/marlin-rant-forum/

[Ed in North Texas]

When Freedom Group bought out Marlin they instituted "push em out the door" policies where employees had unrealistic goals placed on them for production, based on the Japanese models.
Given the antiquated equipment, and the realities of the handfitting required to produce these guns, the employees were disgruntled, but did the best they could.

It was not good enough for their new employer, who wanted to dramatically increase production (and profits) without investing in modern equipment.

When the decision was made to move the production to Ilion, NY, only a few floor production employees were invited to move with the equipment. They were union emploees making a decent wage. They would have lasted maybe six months, while they taught other, unskilled, cheeper laborers their craft, then they would have been hustled down the road.

I don't blame them that they decided to take their severance and not move.

Like so many other buyouts these days, the new owners are buying the reputation and brand name, then try to figure out how they can amortize their investment in as short a time as possible = no sense of obligation to the employees who built that reputation and brand recognition, no comittment to quality control, just a committment to move product out the door as fast as possible and moving the profit margin upward.

I take it you are on the Board of Directors, since you have inside knowledge of exactly what Freedom will do with Marlin. Will they do the same thing they did when they bought Remington. Oh - Wait! Remington is still operating, Freedom didn't strip the company and then dissolve it. So what makes you think that will happen now?

[btroj]

I could care less what others on the net say about the Marlin situation. The guys at Marlin owners don't have any ore info than we do. Supposition and repeated rumor don't make fact.
Until we wait and see we just don't know, do we.

[Olevern]

Only problem is, no one thinks the product it tolerable. Who wants to risk $650 to buy the first Marlin after the revamp to see if it is tolerable?

Since the buyout and move to Illion the quality control has been abysmal. Look over on the Marlin Owners forums in the "rant" subforum and see some of the junk that has been pushed out the door.

There before they stopped production of the pistol cal. rifles/carbines, Marlin (Remlin) was reimbursing buyers dollar for dollar their purchase cost, including taxes for product that couldn't be fixed by inexperienced assemblers.

Just saw (yesterday) a Marlin model 1895 cowboy, 24" oct bbl. in almost new condition in a local gun shop...on consignment for $795.00. This was one of the older ones put together by artisans of their craft in New Haven. I passed, although that gun is on my short list, to join Marlin cowboys in 32 H&R magnum,38/357, 44 mag and Marlin carbines in 45-70, 32-20, 38/357 ,25-20 and a LTD model (half oct/half round) in 45-70.

I'll keep looking for a more reasonably priced example, but looking at sold auctions on Gunbroker.com the lowest recent price I see is over $750.00, with many crowding the thousand dollar mark and some over it.

[Olevern]

I take it you are on the Board of Directors, since you have inside knowledge of exactly what Freedom will do with Marlin. Will they do the same thing they did when they bought Remington. Oh - Wait! Remington is still operating, Freedom didn't strip the company and then dissolve it. So what makes you think that will happen now?

No, I am not on the board of directors, I call it as I see it based on general trends in this and other industries, and, based on information from former Marlin of New Haven employees who post regularly on the Marlin Owners forums.

What got your shorts in a bunch? Whatever it is/was I suggest you direct your ire elsewhere.

[btroj]

Ah yes, the former employee information. On the web. Can't think of a more reliable source than anonymous posts by people I don't know who say they USED to work for a company but lost their jobs. Yep, reliable sources say.

I still say we need to wait and see. Who really knows? None of us. Nobody over at Marlin Owners either. And they have a "RANT" forum. It isn't a "FACT" forum. The title says it all. Give people a good chance to rant and I bet you can here some real doozies.

I will give Marlin the chance to prove what they can still make. I have a feeling that most of us will be pleasantly surprised. Some will never warm to a rifle from the new plant. So be it, I don't care. Mid they make a rifle that fits my needs, is of acceptable quality, and is priced right then I will buy it. What I will not do is beat a company into the ground based upon Internet rumor mills.

[DukeInFlorida]

I used to sell Colt's Firearms their broaching tools. They had a series of about 100 broaching operations for producing an AR15. That's a lot of floor space, a lot of set ups, a lot of handling, and a lot of issues from lot to lot with quality.

When they replaced all those broaching machines with state of the art CNC machining centers, they increased their quality immensely, reduced their costs by more than half, and dramatically improved their output ability.

The same is true at Marlin.

While it's nostalgic to think about the old gun factories with highly trained machine operators, it's more realistic to stay competitive, and upgrade machinery. Some of the machines that Colt and Marlin used to run were as old as the building they were in.

If the older machinists chose to not get re-trained on the CNC equipment, that's their loss.

When they retired, the ART of their style of machining would have been lost anyway!

With CNC machining, it still takes a skilled worker to make good parts. But it doesn't require a 40 year veteran of gun making to do it. They should have gone for the re-training, and kept their jobs, and been there for the NEW Marlin.

In manufacturing these days, either you step out of the parade, and watch it go by, or you march to the beat of the new drummer.

The NEW DRUMMERS are there to make sure the battle gets won. It's not music they are playing.

[Ed in North Texas]

No, I am not on the board of directors, I call it as I se it based on general trends in this and other industries, and, based on information from former Marlin of New Haven employees who post regularly on the Marlin Owners forums.

What got your shorts in a bunch? Whatever it is/was I suggest you direct your ire elsewhere.

What "got my shorts in a bunch" is your certainty that you know what is going on, what the intentions of the company are and what seems to me to be a generally hostile attitude toward corporations. You claim you base your opinion on what you believe to be "...general trends in this and other industries..." and former employees who no longer have a job because of the move. I don't know what research you might have done to determine those general trends because you didn't give us any citations of sources for that information. As for the comments of former employees in forum and blog posts, those people just might have an axe or two to grind.

Now all that is just my opinion, but logic tells me there is reason to question the factual nature of your posts. Not you personally, just your certainty that you know exactly what is occurring.

[felix]

Yep! Maybe the brand name of the gun should change to mate with the name of the CNC equipment? Machines making machines. Started with the computer age. I guess the future has guns as robotic transformers, in that a 45-70 becomes a 32-20 with a flick of the bic for toys sold to us? ... felix

[Ed in North Texas]

Yep! Maybe the brand name of the gun should change to mate with the name of the CNC equipment? Machines making machines. Started with the computer age. I guess the future has guns as robotic transformers, in that a 45-70 becomes a 32-20 with a flick of the bic for toys sold to us? ... felix

I was in the last class the S&W Academy (LEO only at the time) took on a factory tour (or at least that was the decision at that time). That would have been somewhere in the late '80s or early '90s, IIRC. S&W had a load of CNC machining operations producing their handguns at that time. This isn't new and it isn't going away. It is a way to keep production here in the US through lower cost of production, just as investment casting was when Bill Ruger introduced it to the industry.

[Olevern]

what "got my shorts in a bunch" is your certainty that you know what is going on, what the intentions of the company are and what seems to me to be a generally hostile attitude toward corporations. You claim you base your opinion on what you believe to be "...general trends in this and other industries..." and former employees who no longer have a job because of the move. I don't know what research you might have done to determine those general trends because you didn't give us any citations of sources for that information. As for the comments of former employees in forum and blog posts, those people just might have an axe or two to grind.

Now all that is just my opinion, but logic tells me there is reason to question the factual nature of your posts. Not you personally, just your certainty that you know exactly what is occurring.

so, lets see if i can get this right, i am not allowed to have an opinion, but to quote you "now all that is just my opinion"?

How about you tell us "what research you might have done" to form your opinion.

I, sir, do not like your attitude.

Perhaps, sir, you could quote some other posts where you "question the factual nature of my posts", and quote the research you have done that proves me wrong, i have, indeed been wrong on many occasions in my life.

[Ed in North Texas]

so, lets see if i can get this right, i am not allowed to have an opinion, but to quote you "now all that is just my opinion"?

How about you tell us "what research you might have done" to form your opinion.

I, sir, do not like your attitude.

Perhaps, sir, you could quote some other posts where you "question the factual nature of my posts", and quote the research you have done that proves me wrong, i have, indeed been wrong on many occasions in my life.

If you acknowledge that the statements you made were just opinion, I have no problem with you at all.

This does not strike me as an opinion, it is an alleged statement of fact, and stated in such manner as to lead a reader to believe you have personal knowledge of the facts of the matter: "When Freedom Group bought out Marlin they instituted 'push em out the door' policies where employees had unrealistic goals placed on them for production...".

And so is this: "It was not good enough for their new employer, who wanted to dramatically increase production (and profits) without investing in modern equipment."

And this: "...only a few floor production employees were invited to move with the equipment."

I didn't see a single "I think", or "I believe". Nothing which would lead a reader to believe you were only stating an opinion and may not have had personal knowledge of a factual basis for these statements. After your post stating your basis was trends in industry and blog/forum statements of former employees, a reader could deduce that these were statements of opinion and not necessarily fact.

As you have now said this was your opinion, I have no problem with your post. I freely admit that I am too much of a PITA with regard to clarity in writing, for which I apologize.

And I am also often wrong, my wife tells me so all the time (and has done so for many, many years).

[robertbank]

Unless companies in NA invest in the latest computer equipment, CNC equipment and adopt modern manufacturing techniques they won;t be competitive in the world market. Other countries are doing just that including India, and China and ignoring such moves is to invite the loss of manufacturing.

It is, as another posted elsewhere on this thread, nostalgic to think of craftsman and fitting parts that couldn't be produced to fit without hand work on the old equipment of the day but those days are over. First, it was to expensive to attract folks into those trades when there are and were more attractive alternatives for employment and two it wasn't necessary with the advent of computer directed CNC equipment.

The task now at hand is to ensure our schools generate folks capable of running the computers. You can't do that with pictographs and graduates that can barely read.

Take Care

Bob

[Marlin Junky]

Here's the way I look at it...

I was in the aerospace industry when Douglas and Boeing were the big dogs in the US and Douglas was going down hill fast. I actually worked in the manufacturing division of Douglas Aircraft Co in Long Beach, CA in the 80's when the only project keeping Douglas above water was the Gov't sponsored C-17. The pres. at the time (Worsham) was making a few bucks selling DC-10's to FedEx but most the DC-9's were going to Asia at below our cost just so we could keep the commercial lines working. The mantra in the manufacturing division was to modernize so we could compete with Boeing who was decades ahead even though we had several 5-axis mills installed (most were idle). It really got pretty ugly in the shops and a few were arrested for things like sabotaging wiring bundles, etc. Point is, the company was poorly managed and now the plant that employed 30,000 (yup the size of a small city) is now a large vacant lot owned by Boeing. It's not technology that's the problem, it is whether technology is implemented properly. If the people running Marlin are smart enough, Marlin will survive. If they can't handle it, someone else will take over assuming there's a market for lever guns... and I think there is.

MJ

[felix]

Ed, you should know that anything said here, and everywhere else, is de facto OPINION. The words "I think" is just noise for any portrayal, which also might also include associated photographs. Long live Photoshop. Only the receiver can decipher what is truth. ... felix

[EDK]

I live near St Louis MO (and retire from the electric company this week ON A BUY-OUT for employees 58 and older...41 years+ there) When I graduated from high school in 1965, you could get on at the various steel mills, automobile manufacturing, etc., work your way up the ladder and someday retire from that one employer. Not that way anywhere anymore. The steel mills are mostly closed, one auto manufacturer survives at a new plant 'way west of the city, and everything else is trying to adjust to the new reality. MARLIN is part of that new reality in this country.

Almost every rifle I own is a pre 2008 MARLIN. There are a few new models that interest me, but the horror stories...and the few new guns I've seen in store displays...make me wary of buying one. I hope MARLIN/REMINGTON can get their issues solved.

It's kind of funny that we are currently experiencing a golden age of boolit moulds from a bunch of talented craftsmen....I've got BROOKS, KALYNUIK, MIHEC and NOE...looking at what ACCURATE MOULDS has to offer too. Reloading tools and components are also good. BUT the older gun manufacturers seem to be in trouble.

:Fire::cbpour::redneck:

[felix]

No sales, no manufacturing..... No management, no sales..... No ideology, no product. The cycle depends on the attribute needed most at what time. ... felix

[robertbank]

The answer may lie in the posts here. How many speak of having or just bought an older Marlin, Winchester etc. Guns do have a very long shelve life. Longer in fact that we do I am afraid. You reach a point of saturation as some point. New product has to compete with perfectly good used products and if the quality or price isn't there the company is in trouble. I have guns in my safe that are perfectly good shooters that predate my birth date be decades and I have been around for seven of them. - decades that is.

Cowboy Action shooting breathed a new life into the lever market and the action shooting sports gave rise to improved designs of older products. Without those three coming along nothing has changed much for the past 150 years in the shooting game. It is a rather mature market.

Take Care

Bob

[Marlin Junky]

It may be a rather mature market, as you say, but it's just like any other business that will thrive (or not) based on its business plan. Gov't reg's are the biggest hurdle.

MJ

[robertbank]

It may be a rather mature market, as you say, but it's just like any other business that will thrive (or not) based on its business plan. Gov't reg's are the biggest hurdle.

MJ


Well as a Canadian I can speak to your Gov't regulations as we are affected by them in ways you likely aren't aware of. In order for a small arms parts supplier to ship outside of the US they require a $20,000 export license. Sporting scopes such as a simple Weaver 4X scope can't be sold by a retailer to Canada without getting an export permit. It is almost impossible for me to ship a gun back to say Ruger or Smith & Wesson for warranty work. Want a US Custom gun maker to do his magic on a gun - no can do without Export/Import paper. Ruger makes The Scout rifle. It comes up here without the muzzle brake. Why because the Bush Administration signed off a regulation - no muzzle brakes can be exported. So we buy the gun, add a muzzle brake often from a 3rd party supplier from the US - see export permit requirements. You just never know a .308 Scout Rifle may one day replace the AK as the rifle of choice for terrorists but somehow I think it maybe sometime before it does.

Now some of this is just a nuisance to us up here but all of the above examples would provide employment for Americans. Wanna bet neither of your two parties are prepared to amend the regulations.

In fairness all industries work with government regulations that I am aware of. Some of the regulations protect the consumer others the environment, the former I think are on balance necessary given the private sectors past history.

Take Care

Bob

[MtGun44]

No doubt government regs in many countries, not just our often stupid and counterproductive
US regs, have a HUGE impact on gun and related materials sales. Apparently, in many
countries, it is illegal to own reloading gear.

The point of the extreme long life of mature technology products is an excellent one, too.

Imagine if cars routinely lasted 75 to 100 years in servicable condition without rebuilding?
Car makers would be selling a heck of a lot fewer cars, for sure.

Bill

[Olevern]

If you acknowledge that the statements you made were just opinion, I have no problem with you at all.

So, here you state that if my statements were opinion, you have no problem with me, But, of course, that is not the case, as you go on to defend your perception of what I said, which, of course, was "an alleged statement of fact and on and on and on.....I sir do NOT accept your appology when it is prefaced by more and more of the same invective as your original assertions

This does not strike me as an opinion, it is an alleged statement of fact, and stated in such manner as to lead a reader to believe you have personal knowledge of the facts of the matter: "When Freedom Group bought out Marlin they instituted 'push em out the door' policies where employees had unrealistic goals placed on them for production...".

And so is this: "It was not good enough for their new employer, who wanted to dramatically increase production (and profits) without investing in modern equipment."

And this: "...only a few floor production employees were invited to move with the equipment."

I didn't see a single "I think", or "I believe". Nothing which would lead a reader to believe you were only stating an opinion and may not have had personal knowledge of a factual basis for these statements. After your post stating your basis was trends in industry and blog/forum statements of former employees, a reader could deduce that these were statements of opinion and not necessarily fact.

As you have now said this was your opinion, I have no problem with your post. I freely admit that I am too much of a PITA with regard to clarity in writing, for which I apologize.

And I am also often wrong, my wife tells me so all the time (and has done so for many, many years).

Finally, sir, I am done with this thread and with you

[45nut]

I SURE don't understand how the topic can be so divisive. Not one of us here has any control over what is happening out there and for feelings to be hurt and people called out seems pretty short sighted in the uncertain future we all face.

[btroj]

It certainly is an unsure future. I hadn't really thought about it buti wonder how the economy is affecting the redo at Marlin. Can't be helping, that is for certain.

My stance remains the same, wait and see. We just don't know. That is with Marlin and the economy as a whole. Sigh.

[TXGunNut]

Thank you, 45nut. We're talking about the guns we love and hoping for the best for their future and somehow we're getting feelings hurt.
C'mon, guys, lighten up!

[357Mag]

GTEK -

Howdy !

Boy, I understand the Marlin skepticism; but my Marlin 336 XLR .35 Rem runs counter to the negatives I've been reading !

My .35 Rem XLR is around 2 y.o., and bears the Connecticut factory markings.
This rifle is THE most accurate out-of-the box ( " factory " ) rifle I've ever owned !

I had set myself a goal of obtaining 5/8" groups ( J-word's ) @ 100, from the outset. Mind you, not for hunting loads; just as proof of ultimate accuracy capability of the rifle. In other words, I am shooting the XLR as a paper-puncher.

Within 5 trips to the range & a couple hundred rnds; I met my 5/8" group goal @ 100yd. I have re-set my goal now, to obtain 7/16" group(s).....
it appears I have woefully under-estimated the gun's accuracy capabilities !

My rifles fit & finish are superb !

The barrel broke-in w/ just one shot, and has shown NO "blue" on the patches since then ! In fact, I don't even use a bore brush; only foaming bore cleaner and patches. After barrel cleaning, I treat the bore w/ Montana Extreme Bore Conditioner.

I won't tell you at what point the trigger breaks at, as you'd think me absolutely nuts; as regards lightness of the pull.

Wish they ( the Marlins ) were/are all this good !

With regards,
357Mag

[TXGunNut]

Wish they ( the Marlins ) were/are all this good !

With regards,
357Mag


Someday, my friend, they very well may be.

[JIMinPHX]

It's kind of funny that we are currently experiencing a golden age of boolit moulds from a bunch of talented craftsmen....I've got BROOKS, KALYNUIK, MIHEC and NOE...looking at what ACCURATE MOULDS has to offer too. Reloading tools and components are also good. BUT the older gun manufacturers seem to be in trouble.


Maybe it will be time for a few board members to file a few ATF form #7's & start up manufacturing guns pretty soon.

[Gtek]

I threw the question out there and I am not suprised by the wide angle of the veiws. We are men and the exchange of ideas is healthy and needed IMHO. Sometimes a sharp wind hits and can change your outlook in a positive way. It is very clear we all love this past time and like myself I have enjoyed it my entire life. I think we are all sad, hurt, mad that another mountain may be crumbling to sand. I feel the America I grew up in and the manly men that forged myself and others is becoming another piece of history. I do hope they get their act together, I wish them much success. Gtek

[TXGunNut]

I feel the America I grew up in and the manly men that forged myself and others is becoming another piece of history. I do hope they get their act together, I wish them much success. Gtek

Yep, what he said.




:coffeecom

[frnkeore]

+2 for Gtek

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

I hadn't planned to buy any new Marlins anyhow. I'm a bit more of an 1873/1886/1895 person.

Rich

[kelbro]

Thank goodness I have enough 'old' Marlins to where I don't see needing any 'new' Marlins.

What's funny is that as a kid, I somehow had the notion that Marlins were 'cheap' guns. I had a 1962 Win94. I was told and always assumed that it was the best. It's a great rifle but after picking up a 39A and a 336, I began to take a different view of Marlin. The simplicity and quality was impressive. Next came the pistol caliber levers, 357 and 44. Mo' fun and great looking rifles that shoot very well.

Even though I don't plan to buy any more Marlins (famous last words, I know), I do hope Remington can get their act together and keep the fine Marlin name alive.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I have followed this thread from the beginning, and I know their are some who understand machine work, however I have not read anything on this thread that would lead me to believe that anyone here or at the "ultra reliable" "Marlin Owners Forum" have any clue as to what Freedom Groups intentions are for Marlin.

All I see is speculation based on rumor.

The only thing that anyone can say with certainty is "We'll just have to wait and see."

My final .02 on this subject!

Randy

[SkookumJeff]

Freedom Groups intent is no different than any other corporation. Maximize return on investment to shareholders while reducing and minimizing cost. It's all about the money. It's ALWAYS all about the money.

Next question?

[Wrbjr]

All I know is my 2009 336W was manufactured in CT and has JM stamped on the barrel. I am told this is probably a good thing. Shoots well. Cycles well. Keeping my fingers crossed for the future.

[Ed in North Texas]

Ed, you should know that anything said here, and everywhere else, is de facto OPINION. The words "I think" is just noise for any portrayal, which also might also include associated photographs. Long live Photoshop. Only the receiver can decipher what is truth. ... felix

You are correct. I'm just an old fart who has been picky about writing once I acquired the skill. I get carried away. In a few more years I may not remember what writing is.

Ed

[MakeMineA10mm]

I have followed this thread from the beginning, and I know their are some who understand machine work, however I have not read anything on this thread that would lead me to believe that anyone here or at the "ultra reliable" "Marlin Owners Forum" have any clue as to what Freedom Groups intentions are for Marlin.

All I see is speculation based on rumor.

The only thing that anyone can say with certainty is "We'll just have to wait and see."

My final .02 on this subject!

Randy

I don't know, Randy; I think we have everything we need to figure this out, and it's all been said before on this thread...

Obviously, Freedom Group wants to maximize profits, just as the other large firearms industry holding group, Cerebrus, does.

Both holding groups own numerous manufacturers which do nearly identical work. With modern technology and shipping and smart application of business principles, it behooves them to consolidate and "upgrade" to modern CNC machinery, which is not only efficient, but can be run by cheap labor. So far FG has closed Bushmaster and Marlin, and moved them to Ilion. So far they continue to make products "branded" with those names, but if they're made in a different place, by different people, on different tools, and with less hand-work/artisanship, are they really the same??

Now, I don't sit on FG's nor Cerebrus' boards, but I can see with my own two eyes.

Look at what Cerebrus did with Winchester. They first said that Winchester was closing. This had the effect of driving prices skyward. Then, after a year or two of silence, they come back, with fanfare and an attitude of doing us a favor, and say, we just couldn't let the name "Winchester" die. And out comes a CNC M-70 out of a cheap-labor factory with no hand-work, and it's being sold at the newly inflated prices that they just created two years previously... Oh yeah, and since Cerebrus also owns Browning, the corporate contact and arrangements were already in place to have Miroku make the new Win 94s in Japan for a street price of $1000 apiece...

Ed, are you starting to get what Ole was trying to teach you? These big holding companies are cutting quality and increasing price, and we and the old skilled artisans, and ultimately America, are paying the price. If you want to arrogantly ignore what your eyes should be seeing, that's fine, drink the cool-aid and buy more "Winrokus" and "Remlins," but please quit bashing the people who aren't ignoring what's going on.

Myself, I'm hunting for my final, pre-Freedom Group Marlin, and I'm putting together a Montana M-99 30-06 bolt gun instead of buying a faux "Winchester."

[W.R.Buchanan]

I guess I am compelled to yeild an additional .02

I was only saying that nobody but the management of Remlin knows for sure what is going to be coming. And they may not either. I know the previous company Marlin was loosing money.

I will be asking very pointed questions at the SHOT Show next month, and I will report back whatever BS I get from them.

As far as your eyes seeing what is going on,,, Which horse should I bet on in the 8th race at Santa Anita on Saturday? Now that's some foresight I could actually get behind.

The Faux Win M70's you refer to are made by FN in SC and are so much better than original M70's it is pathetic. My bro in law has a .308 20"bbl sniper version that consistantly puts 5 inside of .5 " at 200 yards, and does it with monotinous regularity . He is a novice reloader, and not some bench rest guru either! They are simply being made better with better machinery.

It used to be in the 60's if you got 60K mi out of a Chevy engine you were doing really well. Now if you don't get 260K mi out of one you got a bad one. They are being made with better materials, with designs that are engineered to a higher degree of perfection, on better machinery. Thus a better product.

In 1960 a Chevy truck was $2500, now they are $25,000, and they are light years beyond what was doable in 1960.

Same holds true for guns, fishing reels, washing machines, and everything else that is made.

One thing that is, and has been happening, in the firearms industry for many years now is many outfits making popular models of guns. There is no less than 30 outfits making AR's, and there is nearly as many making 1911's..

I am going to be lobbying Ruger very hard to start building Marlin centerfire rifles. IE 1894's,95's, and 336 models. Rossi is already doing this, but I think Ruger would do a better job. And there definately is a market for a well made lever action gun.

Ruger makes an AR, and a 1911 so the idea of producing another companies design is nothing new to them, and both of the designs produced are very far up the food chains qualitywise of each gun being manufactured. The Marlin action is not some Swiss watch, and is well within the capibility of Ruger to engineer and manufacture. Many parts of the Marlin actions were being cast by Ruger anyway.

If they chose to mfg 1984 carbines in .357 .44, and.45 cals, and 1895s/.45-70 in Rifles and carbines, I think they would be very well received.

It would bring credible competition to that segment of the market and force Freedom to either produce or fold.

I would have no problem owning a Marlin rifle with the name Ruger on the barrel. And if you want to stack up the two gunmakers side by side, who do you think would really make a better gun? I don't think there is any speculation who'd win that one, and it ain't Marlin.

Here's where I'm at on this whole subject. I don't care (beyond the traditional aspect) whether Marlin comes back or not. I like the guns, but I already have 5 and any more that I buy will be older ones. Most of the newest ones I've seen have been built OK, some weren't right but they were the last ones coming out of the old shop and built by disgruntled employees.

If they come back and they cost more, then that might just be because of the high cost of doin' business. Part of the reason why people are miffed with the current production is because of the quality, but they think they should get the same quality (which really wasn't all that) for the same price as before.

Well it ain't gonna happen. The dollar is not worth what it used to be worth,,, and that is the simple reason why.

One thing I will NOT buy is a Marlin Rifle that says "Made in China" on the barrel!

Randy

[btroj]

So a Marlin made in a different plant isn't a Marlin? What?

I don't care where it is made, I just want it to work properly.

I for one will be waiting to see. Make a good rifle and I am interested. The location of the plant just isn't relevant. How many here are very happy with 92 's made in Brazil?

Too many with too much free time. All this fear and anger over a business decision. I have learned to not get too excited about things I can't control.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Randy - we actually agree, it appears. I was describing how easy it was/is to see what FG & Cerebrus are doing on a macro scale, while you, quite correctly, point out we can't predict the micro decisions from day-to-day, which often respond to market changes, cost of production, etc. The only macro decision left is the question of whether to keep the brand names alive. While my prediction is that they will, a couple good examples have been brought up where the opposite has been done.

Btroj, it's all a matter of opinion. While I can agree it is still a Marlin design, and it still says Marlin on the barrel, there is definitely something different, and between the disgruntled employees at the old plant and new Remington line not knowing what they're doing yet, there's a few years of bad ones upon us now... If you want to buy classic American firearms that say made in Japan on them at a price twice of the American-made ones, check out the "new" Winchester 92s...

I'm not knocking the business decision as much as I'm lamenting the loss of American tradition and capability, and pointing out the correctness of Vern's analysis of the cause behind it.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
THANKS FOR THIS INFORMATIVE THREAD!
****, I like marlins and an sorry to hear about there decline in quality.
I knew about the plant closing & relocation, but not about the quality issues.:Fire::Fire:

[btroj]

I can agree but only to a point. The guns are still going to be made in the US. They aren't going over seas.
As for the Japan made 92s, too much money for what they are. I will take a Marlin 1894 every time.
Winchesters just too much money for a name.

[W.R.Buchanan]

btroj; I meant Marlin design made by Ruger for Ruger with the Ruger name on it.

Not built by Ruger for Marlin.

Randy

[btroj]

I understood and agree Randy. That would be a great gun.

I meant that people are hung up on where their Marlin was made. Does it really matter if it says Rem on the barrel instead of something else?
I want a good barrel, the markings mean little.

[machinisttx]

...If you are generating code from a post processor. If you write your G-code by hand (like I used to do) then you can just look at an old fashioned print & start coding.

That's assuming a machinist is standing at the control and not an operator.....

[machinisttx]

You can make guns with a file, or with a manual mill/lathe, or with a 2 axis NC mill/lathe, or with a 5 axis
NC machining center. All will work. The 5 axis center will be the fastest and cheapest and
most consistent, independent of operator skills. The file takes by far the most operator skill, but
look at the magnificent shotguns and double rifles that are still made today, mostly with a file for
final shaping and fitting. Of course, these guns cost $25,000 and up. I can't afford that. Plus
that guy can make probably about 5-10 guns per YEAR.

A 5 axis machining center will produce part after part, VERY quickly, and VERY accurately, with
a high initial investment in machinery but low labor costs, and lower operator skill than the
Holland & Holland filer. To program a part quickly and efficiently for a 5 axis machining center,
a solid model is the best. Can you manually program the thing? Sure, just like you can make
a Wesley-Richards double rifle with a file. Not cheap, not easy to modify, probably not the
best way for new parts.

Can parts be made the old ways? Of course. Not a chance that all of the old ways are
going to be fully gone any time soon. But if you want to make a profit, and improve your
quality while containing costs, the sooner you go fully modern methods, the better.

Henry Ford started it with the assembly line, and made cars affordable compared to the hand
made cars everyone else made.

When you sell to the military, high cost is sometimes not particulary important because there is
no competition, and often the quantities are very small by commercial standards. In the gun
business, when selling to civilians, we can't afford hand made guns (mostly) but we still want
our quality. Automated manufacturing marches on.

Bill

Not true. An idiot is still an idiot. A miniscule mistake in either setup or data entry on the machinist/operator side of things will ruin a part just as quickly as one too many strokes of a file in a master gunsmith's hands.

CNC and zerox machines are not one in the same.

[Reload3006]

I wish the world was the same as it was when I was a teenager. Life was certainly much simpler then. I wish US repeating arms was still an American company I wish Winchesters were still made in America. But they aren't. Marlin was gobbled up by a large corporation that also Owns Remington. Remington has been making guns in this country longer than anyone else. So I would imagine there are some pretty talented gunsmiths and talented craftsmen at Remington making your marlins now. At least Marlins are still being made in America instead of China or Japan. I own several Remington Arms they are all of the highest quality. Why do you supposed it would be any different for a rifle wearing the Marlin name instead of the Remington name coming out of the same factory? If you looking for someone to blame for all this look at your pension plan then look in the Mirror you and I are to blame.

[scb]

When you sell to the military, high cost is sometimes not particulary important because there is no competition..........

My employer will be very interested to hear this. We bid on DOD contracts all time time. Wonder why we don't get all the ones we bid on?

[MakeMineA10mm]

I wish the world was the same as it was when I was a teenager. Life was certainly much simpler then. I wish US repeating arms was still an American company I wish Winchesters were still made in America. But they aren't. Marlin was gobbled up by a large corporation that also Owns Remington. Remington has been making guns in this country longer than anyone else. So I would imagine there are some pretty talented gunsmiths and talented craftsmen at Remington making your marlins now. At least Marlins are still being made in America instead of China or Japan. I own several Remington Arms they are all of the highest quality. Why do you supposed it would be any different for a rifle wearing the Marlin name instead of the Remington name coming out of the same factory? If you looking for someone to blame for all this look at your pension plan then look in the Mirror you and I are to blame.

There's a lot of truth here. I anticipate Remington can and will make good Marlins someday. The problem right now is bean-counters instead of gun-people are in charge, and that slows the process, limits the models available, and puts the whole brand at risk. (Check out the new 2012 Marlin catalog for how many models are not in production...) In this regard, no, I don't care where it is made as long as gun-people are in charge and it's not overseas to our west. Europe and South America have fine gun-building people too, although I want American brands to still be American...

[W.R.Buchanan]

Machinist TX: Good point on the CNC Not Xerox idea.

There are many people who think all you have to do is push a button and the machine just poops out a perfect part. Nothing could be further from the truth!

A CNC machine can only do what it is told to do, and you must tell it every single move to make. You must actually know how to make the part before you can program a CNC Machine. In fact you really need to know how to make that part about 3 different ways in order to be able to get the most out of the machine. CNC machines can make scrap just as fast as they can make good parts. Believe me,,, I have made penty of both.

Sure there are programs that will write some of the code for you, but in the end you must verify that the machine will infact execute those moves in a manner that will not destroy itself, and even if you do get the program close, more than likely it willl need to be tweeked to actually have the parts come out with all of their dimensions where they are supposed to be, and run without intervention. Nothing worse than having to stand there and babysit a machine that is running a marginal program and producing bad parts, or having to chase dimensions because the thing won't do anything twice.

When you start talking about making parts that are as complex as a rifle receiver, you find out that maybe you can't get to everything done in one holding of the part. Then you must transfer the part to another fixture either in the same machine or possibly another machine, and get it to do what you want on the other side of the part. This is NOT THAT EASY TO DO! And the complexity of the task is multiplied exponentially by the relationship between the results of what the first machine does and how a minute error or missed dimension will affect what comes out of the second machine.

It is called Process Control .

When you make a mechinism that is as complex as a lever action rifle, everything affects everything else. Everything you do before affects everything you do after

Have you ever heard the term "having all your ducks in a row?" It means just that. You can 't proceed to duck #2, until duck #1 is perfect, and so on.

When you build a thing like a gun you have to build your process around the end result. You must make sure that everything that is occuring during the whole process will yeild a suitable product in the end. There will be variables.

I will routinely make a complete part in my shop that has several different setups just to make sure the part is actually going to run the way I have planned. Guess what? Sometimes it requires plan B, C, D-W etc. Point being nothing always goes the way you think it will. The automated machine is nothing different. It is mearly doing what you would have done on a manual machine by hand. Sure they can do a few tricks that you can't do on a manual machine, but "mostly" it is just an automated way to do what you did by hand a few years ago.

I have interviened in processes that were being ran completely wrong and yet still producing an acceptable product. It is hard to convince management that the guy who has been doing this job for 20 years has no clue what he is doing. The way I knew he was FOS is when he couldn't explain what he was doing and why. In other words nobody else could do his job,,, WE all know that is BS!

I have successfully done this! ,,, and I did it by figuring out how to do his job correctly without his help and showing management why he didin't know what he was doing. Part of it required me getting him fired, and I did this by having the boss stand in an inconspicuous place and watch the guy sabotage the machine after I got it running right, and he kept shutting it down. Once he was gone things started moving smoothly and I documented the process so anyone could replicate it! That process is still in use 20 years later!

It takes time to create a process as complicated as a gun, and do it in a profitable manner. But believe me it can be done, and can be done without the help of a bunch of dyed in the wool employees that are not willing to change.

Sometimes you are just better off starting from scratch!

That's what is a happening at Marlin/Remington right now.

After Rome fell It took the civilized world more than a thousand years to figure out "How to make Cement!" that's way easier than building guns!

Until they build a successful "Replicator" there will always be jobs for machinists! And like MachinistTX stated, there is a significant difference between a machinist and an operator. There are exactly 9 Million ways to fail. Only experience teaches you where they are. Operators put a piece of material into the machine, close the door, and push the green button,,, I can teach you to be an operator in 3 minutes.

Hell,,, I have practically taught my cat "Feeps" how to run parts, but he's keeps having problems with that opposed thumb thing.

Randy

[BAGTIC]

Luddites of the world unite!

[MtGun44]

I think if you will read what I wrote, you will note that I said "SOMETIMES there is no
competition." I stand by that. MOST of the time, there is competition, and that is good.

Sometimes, only one company can make something and there is no competition. This
very likely increases costs.

I will also stand by the less effect of operator skill on CNC made parts. Can the part be
trashed by putting it in the machine incorrectly, indexing it wrong? Sure. But will two
different operators, one with 1 yr experience and one with 30 yrs experience running the
same machine produce more precise parts or do it more quickly? NO. Once the machine
operator is beyond stupid or lazy or just error prone, and reaches competence - then the
quality and speed are only dependent on the machine and program. I am assuming that
the programming is centrally done. If you have a small shop where the machinist that
runs the CNC machine does his own programming or mods to programs, then you are
dead right - there is a real difference. For most large companies, the programs are done
by programmers, proven in and no ordinary machine operator on the floor is authorized
to modify them.

Bill

[W.R.Buchanan]

Bill : I agree with what you are saying. My whole point was to educate those who have no clue what CNC machines do. Most think they are replicators, and as you know they are for the most part simply automated manual machines, doing what they have always done.

Plus that, any guy who is still just an operator after running parts for 30 years is probably not going to be someone you want making changes to the program. He's the guy I got fired! And he's also the guy that Marlin left behind. Operative words being "Left Behind"

I have seen many scenerios where "engineers" do the programming. But really if a programmer has not got some serious time in front of a machine running many different parts, the programs are going to be marginal, and not use the machine to it fullest.

Perfect example is taking a part to a second operation when you could have just programmed another tool to break an edge in the same setup. They take the part off the machine to keep the cycle time lower and look good to the bosses and bean counters, but never consider the time the 2nd op takes or the end result, which in many cases is an inferior part..

My later Marlins all have very sharp levers. They were profiled on the mill and then thrown into a tumbler to break the edges, and then taken out of the tumbler before they were correctly done. This operation could have been done in the same setup on the mill and not even had to go to the tumbler. Sure it would have added some run time to the part, but it would have yeilded a far superior part.

This was an example of incomplete Process Control. Done by engineers that were inexperiecned or not widely traveled.

The guy you want programming your machines is the guy who has worked at a dozen different shops in 20 years, and is still less than 40 years old. Nice if he was a degreed ME also, but the practical experience always trumps the theoretical side.

I am a "Non- Degreed ME". I have 30 years of experience designing and building machines that I then used in my shop to make parts, but no degree. I make a very good living fixing problems that Raytheon Degreed ME's create, because they have no practical experience.

The best guys I have ever seen were degreed engineers that grew up in machine shops and now own them. They now produce some of the most sophisticated prodcuts known to man.

Some of them even work on guns.

Most people don't realize that all of the equipment we use in machine shops was originally built for the express purpose of making interchangable parts for guns. All of the other uses like car parts and fishing reels are afterthoughts.

Randy

[MtGun44]

No disagreement. I know MEs that are 100% book taught and really have huge gaps in
practical knowledge. OTOH, I met a young ME student in Iowa a few weeks ago that runs
an 8 second rail car at the drags and has been building HER own motors since 8 yrs old,
with the help of a drag racer uncle. She was really fun to chat with over lunch after our
business meeting. She is going to be a real asset somewhere when she finishes her
degree program because she has seen LOTS of machinery, blown up some motors, seen
the real world issues of assembly tolerances, fits, finishes, heat treat, wear, lubrication,
etc. When you are building and running your own racing motors and then learning the
technical metallurgy, structures, mechanical design and such in an enginering school on
top of it, it is the best of both worlds. Very smart young lady and lots of hands on experience
for a 20 yr old.

In our large company, all programming for CNC is done by CNC programmers. They are
usually someone that has started out on the shop floor and then gotten training classes
and experience. We have a union shop, and sometimes that is a problem because we
have to allow for the lowest skill set individual, and the union protects the duds from being
treated the way they should be - fired in many cases. Sadly, it also makes it more difficult
to reward the high performers, too. Some parts just have to be done by the "right" people,
and we usually know who they are pretty quickly.

Bill

[fixit]

i am actually in a quandry over this discussion. you see, i understand the viewpoints of both sides, and recognize that both sides have equally valid issues, but both sides also tend to hold to the the extreme outer edges of their side of the issues. i work for a major international company (can't/won't say, for my job security) that has gone through many changes in the past 15 years. the chip cutters (that's me and the rest of the rank and file) and the upper managment are in a constant dispute over what it takes to make a functional part. the problem is that there are misconceptions of what that is on both sides. the cutters would love to see every done the old way, with intensive hand fitting, and many hours involved. meanwhile, the managment, not entirely wrongly so, is trying to reduce all expense involved in manufacture. unfortunately, this creates a mutual blind area for both parties. the worker doesn't want to be laid off or lose pay or benefits, and the ceo wants to maintain or maximize profits. one thing i see at the ground level (and this must include the occupie movement) is that without profits, a company cannot/will not be in business. it simply won't happen! are some of the salaries obscene? absolutely! do the high level management not understand some of the real world scenarios of the chip cutter? yep! but the asame can be said of the other direction, too. all of this is to say, cerberus may or may not mess up a good thing, but it's also possible that they saved the exsistence of the marlin lever action. let's face it, these rifle DO require a considerable amout of machining, and that is one of the reasons you don't see the savage model 99 manufactured any more!

[W.R.Buchanan]

Fixit: even the Savage 99 could be made on modern machinery, it would just cost more than it did before. At $1000 per copy they would still sell all they could make as long as the product was finished well and functioned well. This is why Winchester Leverguns cost $1000-1500 and up. That's what it costs to make that gun now. But there would still be more than enough buyers even at the higher price.

Marlin was trying to keep the same price point even though the dollar had dropped in value, and the only way they could do it was to decrease actual hands on manhours in each gun.

Unfortunately they were all the time violating the first rule of manufacturing ,which is,,,,"At the end of the day the product has to be right!" And by violating this rule they alienate customers which in turn drives down sales and profits, thus requiring another round of cost cuts.

There is a parrallel analogy for restaurants. First, you have to have good food ! If you have really good food people will pay whatever it costs. Nobody comes back to eat bad food no matter how cheap it is! Pretty much everybody has seen this one in action, and when you price the good food too cheap you go out of business. This is just how business works.

The cost issue must be sorted out after you establish what it takes to make the product right. You are always looking for ways to yeild the same or a better product with less cost and this can certainly be done, but when the bean counter gets involved in the engineering and can over ride them, then that's where the quality generally goes down.

The bean counter generally knows nothing about the product, he just counts the nickles and dimes.

The bean counter is the one demanding shorter cycle times for automated machines, because he thinks that every second of time spent in a plant costs money. On one hand it does, but the other hand realizes that the increase in quality you impart onto the product by spending a few more minutes is more than offset by increased product appeal, and results in higher sales.

In todays world you must build a product to a certain price point, and that price point is determined by what it takes to produce a product of enough quality and servicability to satisfy the consumer that is targeted by that specific price point.

It is a losing game to try to make an established product cheaper, and expect the consumer to swallow. They just go elsewhere. But the knowledgable consumer will in fact pay more for the original product at the established quality level rather than buy the inferior product for less and be dissatisfied.

You have to be pretty stupid to not realize that everything costs more everyday. I think they call it "inflation".

The problems arise with consumers in a market like the USA when they see siimilar items available at Walmart and made in China for way less than a similar product made here in the USA. All of a sudden they compare those products and their servicability to the domestically produced item and buy the cheaper of the two because it satisfies their needs and wants.

This is called the "Sales Comparison Approach to Valuation." It is based on the principal that what you have got, is only worth what the guy next door has sold his for, When that item is similar or the same as yours. Like your house. And the driving principal is the idea of "look what I can buy over here for the same money."

When a country like China which subsidises all of it's industry, (primarily with the moneys we give them for the interest on our debt) then thier products cost less.

The only way to stop this is to get even with them and slap a Tarriff on their imports. This would level the playing field and make our products worth more, and make their inferior products cost more . People would buy American again because of the value.

I like the way the Germans deal with value. The new Mercedes S350 Diesel I want is $91K, and the price in not negotiable. That's what it costs. period!

Or you you can shop around and buy something for less, but it won't be that car. There is only one quality level, and that's what it costs to have it.

They sell everyone they make! and have been for a long time ,dispite the numerous competetors that try to flank them. There is only one Mercedes Benz.

There should only be one Marlin too. Right now there is two, so there is competition. Competition can either drive down prices or increase quality. Marlin already lost the price game, but they could win the quality game.

It will be interesting to see if they can figure this out.

Randy

[TXGunNut]

Wow, awesome thread! Lots of good info about manufacturing. It may be dated in today's machine shop world but several years ago I learned to write the XYZ equation that it takes to describe a simple flat washer. A real eye-opener. My higher education background is management but I've been known to fabricate and modify pieces, I understand the concept of one too many file strokes as well as managing production costs. Mebbe I need to fire off a resume to Cerberus. :coffeecom
Thanks for the insight on the processes involved in making the complex parts that make up our beloved firearms.

[fixit]

randy

you hit the nail right on the head! i didn't expand any further because my search and peck was getting tiring where i signed off! i suspect that if the 99 had gone into its death throws more recently, someone would have gone ahead and found a way to cnc it. bottom line; we're singin' in the same choir!
bob

[uscra112]

MtGun44 - I got a chuckle out of that one. When I was hiring guys to design and build automation equipment for our Big 3 powertrain plant projects, I came to the conclusion that I didn't want UMich grads, I wanted the guys who had a practical education, and around Detroit that meant building their own cars! I only caught a couple, but they were keepers.

I'm going to reiterate something I alluded to about fifty posts back. Admittedly I haven't been to Ilion in over fifteen years, but when I was going there regularly, it was obvious that the place was a rust-belt dump, and an isolated one at that. Not much there to attract and keep sharp young manufacturing engineers and skilled tradesmen who want to raise a family and live a good life. Without that talent, Remlin manufacturing cannot be world class, even if the top management gave a rat's behind, which I suspect they don't. And, I having done battle for 15 years with the UAW myself, will point out that the union alone will deter the best engineers from staying around - it certainly did in the Big 3. Moving everything to a right-to-work state with better weather, lower taxes, and better schools would save the day. If they don't - goodbye.

[MtGun44]

uscra112 -

You said a lot that needs saying. There are places that you just will not find people from
elsewhere willing to move to. Add a knucklehead union (not all are) and you won't keep
good engineers. Just because the guy has the diploma, doesn't make him/her any
good. Tha young lady will be a REAL engineer one day and be able to really do good work
due to education in the classroom and in the real world where getting the tolerance wrong
on your piston fit means a damaged and maybe blown engine. Contacting the brain via
the wallet is a great route to learning.

Good lifestyle location to raise the family counts for a bunch. Sorry if I offend people that love
places, but you could not pay me enough to work in Detroit, Chicago, Boston, NYC or NJ. Sorry
but those places have a lifestyle that does not mesh with my requirements. I'm sure some
folks like it because there are a lot of people living there. Cost of living alone is a real issue.

Bill

[uscra112]

you could not pay me enough to work in Detroit, Chicago, Boston, NYC or NJ. Sorry
but those places have a lifestyle that does not mesh with my requirements. I'm sure some
folks like it because there are a lot of people living there. Cost of living alone is a real issue.

Bill
You said a mouthful. I'm a refugee from Massachusetts, have family living in NJ, and retired two years early to get the H.E.double-toothpicks away from Detroit, (and I actually lived 50 miles away!) Quality of life in NY/NJ/Boston doesn't become tolerable until you are bringing in $250K or so, and even then the day-to-day stress due to traffic and crowding never go away. Never mind trying to own a firearm in any of those places.

I think of what a friend once said about the mountain West, back about 1980: " The people here are those who had the gumption to step up and take a risk. What's back East is all the rest."

That's why Remlin should pack up and leave Ilion. In my not-so-humble opinion.

Phil

[W.R.Buchanan]

Well,,,,, I just got back from the SHOT Show spent 3 days there and saw virtually everything I came for.

We did the main floor the first day and my first stop was the Remlin booth. I was disappointed to see no guns with Illion NY on the barrels! All the guns on display were the same ones that they showed last year. I mean the EXACT same Guns as last year.

I cornered one company rep and started grilling her on the production.

First, they shut down the line in June of last year, not August.

Second, they have not produced ANY guns at all yet! And there is no indication when they will start.

The only point she was adament about making was that they were working on figuring out the production formula and the brand would return,,,,Eventually.

I then went to Ruger and found my new best buddy there who is the #2 guy in the Scout Rifle project.

We talked about the Ruger products and primarily the Scout which I will talk about in my Ruger Scout thread, but I also asked if they could produce the Marlin rifles.

I was shocked!!!! They had already looked at doing it !!!! The issue with Ruger is that they are already making so many parts for other outfit's guns, that their factory is busting at the seams.

In order for them to produce the "Ruglin" it would require them hiring a complete engineering team to suss the project out from beginning to end. This would take at least one year,,, IF,,, they could find the engineers to hire in the first place,,,, Which they CAN"T!

I volunteered to come aboard if they would run the project from Prescott AZ, but all Rifles are made back east.

Operative point here is, whereas they have considered it, it aint gonna happen.

Good part of the operative point is,,, it's not because they wouldn't like to make those guns, they just don't have the manufacturing capacity.

I then went over to the Rossi booth.

Many of you read my thread on redoing my 1895 Cowboy and how I spent 5-6 hours slicking the action and making it run smooth.

Well,,,, The first Rossi Levergun I picked was a .45-70 in Stainless and it was slicker than my massaged gun ,,,,, Right out of the box!

Remington better get off their arses and figure this thing out or their market for that product will be gone. It is already shifting as witnessed by Ranch Dogs posts about his new Rossi gun. I feel this trend will continue.

I also talked to Brian Pearce for about 30 minutes about Marlin and his contact at the factory. He said he only had his factory contact's word for what was happening and had no reason to doubt it, and had no intention of misleading or running interferance for Marlin in any way. All he was reporting was what he was told in answer to his questions about the current state of the Marlin Product line.

He was genuinely concerned about people's peerception of his motives.

I talked to this man two different times during the show about Boolits (he really liked the Mihec .44's I showed him) and a variety of other subjects including where I can get a barrel for my Marlin takedown project, David Clay, and what I do for a living.

I am a decent judge of character.

This man is as pure as the driven snow, and I think you would have to physically twist his arm three full turns to get him to even think about lying or even stretching the truth.

Twisting his arm might be a bit of a problem as he is fully 6'5" tall and easily weighs 280-300 lbs. and runs a cattle ranch. He's not a whimp!

It was a very enjoyable conversation.

I hope this helps with this ongoing discussion.

Randy

[MakeMineA10mm]

Very informative, Randy. Thank you!

My opinion about the big picture is that some of this inflation in gun prices is certainly the fault of GATT and NAFTA coming home to roost. I'm a conservative and to a degree a free-trader, but I'm more a Constitutionalist than either of those, and the Constitution talks at length about tariffs and duties, so I think it was a mistake for Clinton and a bipartisan Congress to pass those two pieces of legislation. Sometimes protecting domestic economy means more than "opening up foriegn markets." Combine that with our current economic situation, and you get $1000+ Winchesters made in Japan.

How does this relate to the question at hand? It worries me that Remlin is still shut down. There are modeling tools available that they could have taken a well-made Marlin or three of each model, and come up with a set of dimensions and tolerences. Granted, there'd be some engineering work to remove the variance caused by hand-fitting and assembly, but they should have been able to have something to program into the CNC machines within a month. Another month to work out bugs at worst. A talented gunsmith, engineer, tool-and-die maker, and production machinist (not a "machine operator") put in a room for a week or two should make a pretty darn good CNC program for a Marlin... Hell, every week we can watch Red Jacket Firearms wing-ding stuff up with a couple smart kids! (Granted, the magic of TV compresses what are probably 3 to 10 week projects into an hour show, but I would think Remington could do better -- but apparently can't...)

The depressed dollar is certainly another problem. But it only is a problem if we're pricing raw materials or completed goods on the world market... I have no idea where Remington gets its steel and walnut, but if it's from overseas, I can see that being a negative factor causing a higher price. If these are American-made guns from American materials being sold to Americans, I don't see where the value of the dollar compared to a Euro or Yen makes a dammed difference.

My spidey-sense is that these problems causing a delay in production are all a big smoke-screen for higher prices... If that's the case (listen up Remington), don't make the mistake Winchester made and expect me to shell out $1000 for an 1894. I'll just stop buying and play with what I've got... This is the OTHER side of production. Not only must the company "put a product out the door that's right," it must have a price commensurate with it's perceived value.

I'm still saying what I've always said: This looks like a profit-driven dog-and-pony show, which will end up with decent-quality guns someday, but at excessive prices, which will drive down sales and end up limiting profits anyway through lower sales numbers. And in the meantime, limited availability.

My suggestion: hang onto what you got, and buy good "JM"-stamped used guns at decent prices whenever you find them. Even if you don't want them, they'll be good trading material someday.

[Bodydoc447]

I ordered a new Guide Gun Friday. My dealer thought they wouldn't be available (for the reasons discussed in the posts above) but he checked with his distributor and there was at least the one I asked for in the pipeline. Obviously, I won't know until I pick it up Tuesday or, more likely Wednesday or Thursday, if there is an Ilion stamp on it or if it is one of the problem children. But since it is what I wanted I tossed the dice. I am told that Remlin is trying to make things right if there is a problem with the gun.

I looked long and hard at the Rossi. I handled one at the local Academy, but the lever/action was locked down so I couldn't try the action. I just couldn't warm to the enlarged loop. Just my personal preference so I decided to try for the Marlin and hope for the best. I cast a couple of RD 350 grainers today so I'd have something to play with next weekend.

Doc

[Chihuahua Floyd]

W.R.
Thanks for tht.
Did you suggest Mr Pearce go back and revisit his article with some more sources of information and a better search for the truth?
I read the article he wrote and was dismayed with the difference between what I have read here and what Mr. Pearce had printed in a national magazine.
Truth would be nice if his editors would allow it, if not he could come here and let us knowhis feelings.
CF

[btroj]

My take on what WR posted is that Brian did write about exactly what he knew. Going back and rehashing this would do no good.
My overall take on Marlin is this- we can believe what Brian was told by his source and believe what WR was told by the Marlin rep or we can beleive internet rumor and supposition.

I have no doubt that what Brian wrote was his honest taken the issue.

We just need to wait and see. Rehashing things won't make thing better or the process to faster.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Btroj is very right, and I'll throw in that when I've spoken with people at another gun manufacturer (who makes a plastic pistol popular with police), I'll get three different answers from three different people about a single question asked over a period of two days. Fact of the matter is, there's darn few people, even in the same building, who know what's really going on.

I'd never question Brian's integrity. It goes back on the company. They should be making sure their media rep (whom I'm sure is who Brian talked with) at least enough of the truth to make sure things are accurate and intellectually honest...

[W.R.Buchanan]

10MM, btroj, and friends, I got pretty pointed with the factory rep. She was a sales person, but had been prepped on what to say to the public. Thing is, this show is NOT for the public and I had to prove I was affiliated with the industry in some way to even get in. It took two days of back and forth before they were satisfied and approved my registration.

Point being people at this show are potential buyers for stores, companies, and represent volumn sales. BSing them is not a smart thing to do.

I was told about all of the reasons why they hadn't gotten this mule up and running to which I just "Ufffed" and said why don't you do this? I even told her repeatedly that I personally could get this show up and running in 2 weeks and at a $grand a day + expenses for my consulting fee it would be a bargain.

I'm sure all of you have ran in to the friend with "the unsolvable problem". This is where your friend has a problem, but every solution you offer up only results in endless reasons why that solution can't be done, thus making the original problem unsolvable.

I generally give them 2 rounds of solutions and then move on.

The only challenging part on a Marlin Levergun is the receiver. The bolts are either round or rectangular and are easy pieces to machine and any competant machine shop could make them. The hammer, and the cartridge lifter, as well as some other small parts are cast by Ruger. Even reverse engineering the receiver on a CMM woudl be easy, but why? since Rem has the drawings! I was told by my guy at Ruger that they make barrels for virtually every US gun MFG other than Remington, who would rather go broke than let them make their barrels. That's sound management?

This was the feel I got from this woman. She obviously didn't understand manufacturing so she couldn't really intelligently discuss that aspect, So they basically had no real excuse for not having this project up and running, and that, in the context of big business, usually means lack of funding.

There is the distinct possibility that Remington will kill the Marlin brand. They will lose a bunch on money doing it, but they may figure it is the "business thing" to do. They have pretty much ran H&R into the ground for no reason, and my guy from Ruger was pretty dismayed about that, as it is taking away a viable source of inexpensive firearms from the public.

Once again ,,, At the end of the day,,,We'll just have to wait and see.

Body Doc 447: All of the Marlin firearms available right now are New Old Stock (NOS) IE they have been sitting in warehouses for some time.

There are many Guide Guns available on www.gunsamerica.com, and www.gunbrokers.com

If your guy can't find one at his large distributor then go on GA or GB and buy one and have it shipped to him as your FFL. this is the easiest way to find and buy a gun you want nowadays.

Randy

[TXGunNut]

Thanks for the report, Randy. I was hoping for good news from Remlin but it seems none is forthcoming at this time or for the foreseeable future. In today's world it doesn't make good sense for whatever reason to manufacture certain products, I'm hoping Marlin leverguns aren't one of those products but time will tell.
I understand your point about "unsolvable problems". I see this quite often, some folks look for reasons something can't or shouldn't be done. Other folks find ways to get things done. You belong to the second group, folks making the calls @ Remlin apparently belong to the first group.

[btroj]

It is nice to get a point of view from someone who actually DID speak to a person involved with the merger.
I hope that Marlin is still alive and well in the future but if not we will all need to move on without them.
I do find it interesting that Ruger is doing so much work making parts for other companies. Tells me a lot aout how strong a place Ruger Has in industry. I once saw a story about how they Have a subsidiary that does casting for golf club heads!

Again, thanks for you work on this. True, valid information is so rare these days regarding this story.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Btroj: You have no idea how much stuff Ruger and Pine Tree Castings does just for the gun industry. However, they also service the Military, and Aircraft industries as well , and probably others I don't know about. I actually did hear about the golf clubs once, and really anything that is made of Stainless Steel is fair game for them. Investment casting lends itself well to the production of many things, and is a hell of a lot more cost effective than making parts from solid chunks of steel, just by virtue of the scrap metal factor, not to mention the time factor. They can and do cast steels also and since Cro-moly is not that much fun to machine, anything you can do to eliminate machining operations is a good thing.

I am not talking just Small Arms here.

I have had Pine Tree quote on numerous doodads for my Navy work, and it usually takes 2 weeks to get a simple quote back.

This is not because they don't want the work!

It is because they are swamped! And lead times are long due to the ever present backlog of work.

This is the mark of a successful company with excellent management.

This outfit is my favorite in the gun industry. They make very good affordable guns. That's why I pitched them on doing the Marlin design. They would execute it in a manner never before seen and it would be successful.

The other option would be for them to buy the Marlin name and /or all tooling outright, which would be the best of all possible scenerios for Marlin. That way the guns would be made right, and they would still have the Marlin name proudly stamped on the barrels. I don't care which town they are made in, and nobody with a brain does either.

I am purposely starting the spreading of this idea here, in the hopes that it will spread and maybe someone will think it's as good an idea as I do, and run with it.

Talk it up in your travels. Word of mouth is a powerful tool and with the advent of the internet anything can go viral in a matter of days. You never know what will happen, but in this case, anything that happened along these lines would be a good thing for the gun industry, the consumer, and Marlin.

Rugers "slogan" is "Arms Makers for Responsible Citizens" Responsible citizens are not necessarily rich so the ability to produce quality guns at affordable prices is the biggest challenge the industry faces. Ruger has shown time and time again, that they can do this as well or better than any other outfit that has ever existed in the history of gun making. Their technology has made guns more affordable for everyone, both by itself, and thru competition, and without them we'd all be paying a lot more to shoot.

Randy

[btroj]

I own my share of Rugers. Other than my 1911 And TC every handgun I own is a Ruger.

Itis nice to see a company expand their footprint. They are very good at casting, why not market that to other companies.

I will definitely spread the idea of Ruger making Marlins. Might not help but it sure won't hurt.

[W.R.Buchanan]

An example of a suggestion falling on Deaf Ears was me trying to convince this woman who is some bigwig in the Lyman Corporation to make their receiver sights (which used to be to best ones ever made) to stop making their sights out of aluminum, and make them out of steel again.

Reason being nobody wants an aluminum Lyman sight because they don't repeat.

Alot of the levergun shooters who shoot competition want this sight. Not everyone wants or even likes a tang mounted sight, me personally being a perfect example. As far as accuracy goes they are not even in the same ball park as a solid mounted receiver sight for repeatability.

Another reason is nobody wants another Williams sight. Williams already makes better ones, I have several and they are good sights but, they wear out quickly when used in a competition situation where they are being moved frequently. On a hunting gun that is zeroed once a year,or once in it's lifetime they are fine.

That's why I bought the older Lyman ones in the first place.

She went on and on about how nobody wants a receiver sight on their guns any more and how every one wants a scope, and how it would take so much longer to make those sights out of steel, and essentially the "unsolvable problem" excuse for not doing something right.

I told her if that is true, then why had I bought a used 66LA off Ebay for $125.00? And why did older Lyman sights continually bring high and almost unreasonable prices. To think they couldn't make that sight and sell it for $100 is ludricrous! People would pay $100 for a genuine Lyman 66LA made right in a heartbeat, rather than try to snag something of dubious condition off Ebay, and go thru the BS of buying something off Ebay, which is a pain at best.

The only models they would have to make are the levergun models and a few of the bolt action models for Springfields Mausers and Winchesters. The only diff between the bolt action models is the bases, as all of the slide assys are interchangable, and the same is true for the Marlin and Winchester lever models as well.

I did not change her mind in the slightest! Complete waste of time!

However: I did take a shot at the "Head of Marketing" who I cornered in the middle of one of the larger aisles. I hit him with the same pitch and indicated that his female compadre didn't even consider my points. At that if he had any brains he'd listen to what I was saying.

I was pretty curt with this guy as he appeared to me to be a dyed in the wool corporate type more interested in the bottom line than producing what the consumer was asking for. I don't know if they will actually try making these parts out of Steel again, but I do know they will both remember me!

Here's the bottom line. The only 2 parts that they are not making out of Steel (IE 12L14) are the base and the slide. All the rest of the parts that matter like the screws and the nuts are already made of steel. I don't care if the aperature is made from steel or aluminum. It is a screw machine part anyway, and the production time difference is negligable.

It is stupid to make something cheaper to maintain a price point that is obsolete. People understand that the reason why stuff costs more is because the dollar is worth less, and they are willing to pay more for the same quality, but they will go else where if the quality dives.

I take exception to people who"think they know what they are doing" running companies.

A friend once told me that "if you really think you know what's going on, then you are probably full of ship!"

I see the confirmation of the theory everyday!

Randy

[btroj]

Make a sight that's durable, repeatable, and works and you can almost name a price. Look at what people pay for a good sight for high power or small bore. 500 dollars of sights on a rifle is on the low side. Easy to hit 700.
I bet BPCR is about the same.

Make the product, people will pay a premium, if it is a premium sight.

[MakeMineA10mm]

It IS strange how people who are seemingly clueless run things. I lobbied HARD for three years at the Glock booth for three new models: a longslide 10mm for hunting (would have required them to make exactly 1 new part - the slide, because they already make a 6" "hunting barrel" in 10mm, and all the other internal parts are standard), a thin ("single-stack") 9mm (same as their Model 26, but with thinned grip and magazine - again, only have to make a handful of new parts), and a "full-size" version of their single-stack 45ACP (Model 36) which would be Glocks version of a 1911. None of these required all new engineering, as they already make a majority of the parts... I took the VP of GlockUS over to the Walther booth and showed him the PPS and to the Ruger booth and showed him the LCP. I explained how Glock's micro-9 would be cheaper, simpler and more resilient than the Walther and more powerful than the Ruger (these 3 years were all pre-LC9). I explained how the full-size G36 would fit smaller hands better and might draw some LE sales away from Kimber. (He correctly pointed out, though, that they introduced the 45GAP for this, and he let me in on the fact they were working on a short-frame version of the G21, so I could see feeling luke-warm on that one.). He just shot my G-20 longslide out of the air though. Interestingly, an aftermarket company produced 500 slides later and sold out in a few months with no advertising other than word of mouth at GlockTalk. I could see slow sales (to Glock) on the longslide and 45 (since they already had alternatives in the works), but why they missed the pocket 9 eludes me. Look at the LC9 from Ruger... (I bought an LCP before the LC9 came out, and I'll probably be luke-warm about a slim-line 9mm when Glock releases it...)

[W.R.Buchanan]

10MM: I think Glock is in the same boat as Ruger. They are swamped.

I have a G21SF and would have bought a long slide version instead without a doubt.

Glock is a modular type of place and as you know there are many interchangable parts thruout the line. I see that bringing out guns like an LCP would require a whole new set of parts which maybe they would be reluctant to do.

However,,,, they are ignoring a complete segment of the market, and it is one they could easily capture with a product like an LCP.

All of these companies have thier own philosophy on how to run things.

I guess when they make us CEO's things will change.

Randy

[6pt-sika]

Hmmmmmmm !

[MtGun44]

Glad to read the comments about Brian Pearce. I have always found that his articles and
replies to letters were dead on with everything I knew, and I have learned a lot from his
articles. I would have guessed that he is a dead honest man, also. Good to hear you
say the same after meeting him.

Bill

[303carbine]

I am glad to have a Marlin GS in 45-70 that was still made by Marlin, I have heard nothing good about the new Remlins.
Some have managed to get a decent one, but most reports I hear are bad. I think the older Marlins will steadily climb in value considering how they are made now.
Too bad, I have had many good Marlins over the years. Perhaps Remington will make a go of it, but not before losing a lot of Marlin customers.

[btroj]

Odd, we have had reports here from people who got a new made Marlin and they were quite happy with them.

I beleive very little of what I read on the Internet. This issue is a great example of why. Too much rumor , too little fact.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I don't believe there are any New Remlins.

At the show all the guns had North Haven Conn. Stamped on the barrels.

If they were produced by Remington then they were only assembled by Remington from left over parts. Not actually manufactured by Remington.

The accepted word out there is that Rem. shut down production in AUG of last year. The Factory rep told me they shut it down in June! I don't think they ever got it up and running.

I personally have not seen any Marlin Lever Action with Ilion NY on the barrel.

I was a Millwright for many years before I became a Machinist. Just moving all the machinery and resetting it up would take many months to accomplish.

Why would you go into production making something you don't understand, with machinery you have never used, and actually expect to make a profit let alone saleable product?

I do not believe that new management would come in and demand higher production at the expense of quality on a product they did not know how to make themselves.

None of this makes sense.

Do not assume a new gun you pick up was made by Remington. If it doesn't say it was made in Illion NY on the barrel then it was either made from NOS parts or it has been in inventory at the distributor for some time. I also consider any guns made at the Marlin factory after Remington took over to be Marlins, not Remlins. They were being made by the same people who had made them all along, maybe with new management, but still the same workers. If they were producing WKRP, then that's on them, not the new guys.

The serial numbers on Marlin Leverguns work like this; Subtract the first 2 numbers from 100 This will give you the year built after 2000.

Example: My 1895 Cowboy has 93 as the first 2 numbers. 100-93= 07 or 2007. My gun was made in 2007 by Marlin. Not Remington.

Randy