AK47 suppressed vs. .300 Blackout suppressed?

[Russel Nash]

Hi all,

I am on a few other gun forums, and it appears to me that there is a lot of hype surrounding the .300 Blackout (I'll go put on my Nomex fire retardant suit now).

So if you have an AK47 and live in one of those free-er states, have you tried to run it suppressed?

How well did it work?

Even if both platforms are run unsuppressed with supersonic bullets, the exterior ballistics look awefully similar.

Thanks!

[daschnoz]

I haven't done sub-sonic x39 with this boolit yet, but -

I would imagine that they wouldn't be too different. You're moving the same boolit at the same speed. Chamber and barrel pressure need to be in the same ball park to achieve the same result. The only real difference is the case size and thus internal volume. You may need a bit more powder in the x39 due to the slightly higher case volume. However, due to the higher case volume, you should be able to drive the x39 slightly faster on the top end.

Super-sonic loads are easy; 13gr-14gr of 2400. This will cycle an AK all day without throwing your brass into the next time zone. The only real problem I see is getting an AK to cycle correctly with sub-sonic loads.

[Russel Nash]

yeah, I am wondering if anyone makes an adjustable gas port of sorts for AK's. you can open up the gas block or port for the subsonic rounds so more gas is moving the op rod. then tune the gas port or gas block down for super sonic rounds.

[daschnoz]

I was wondering the same thing, but I don't think so.

[rockrat]

I don't know if the muzzle pressures are the same between the two rounds, but with loads going the same velocity, with the gun functioning, I would think performance with a suppressor would be similar.

I think the big thing with the 300 Blackout, is that you can actually have decent mags to use with the AR15 platform VS. the mediocre mags when shooting x39 rounds. Then, you also get to use plentiful 5.56 brass, which is cheaper than x39 brass.

[dk17hmr]

The 7.62x39, from what I have read, doesn't do well in an AR platform. The case design doesn't allow proper feeding. Which is the main reason for the American 30 cal rounds, like the whisper/ blackout, the 30hrt, and the 7.62x40. They are all roughly the same. I dont see why a subsonic x39 wouldn't work though.

[Larry Gibson]

The 7.62x39, from what I have read, doesn't do well in an AR platform. The case design doesn't allow proper feeding.

That's out of mags made for the 5.56 cartridge. When used with mags made specifically for the 7.62x39 they feed as reliably as any AR.

Larry Gibson

[Russel Nash]

yeah, I have a 7.62X39 AR. It runs fine with the "banana clip" style mags I have for it.

They are 30 round mags.

My issue is that so far it only seems to like American Eagle/Federal brass cased ammo.

I haven't tried it, but I have heard that regular AR .223 mags will work for between 5 and 10 rounds....past that though, yeah, the rounds supposedly jam up because the cartridge's taper from headstamp to shoulder.

[Aloxite]

In an AR platform the 300 blackout holds all the cards. It uses the same mags and bolt as a 5.56. It has the additional benefit of using .308 bullets that are made in much more variety than .311 bullets, though not a big deal for casters. Also, since many people build the blackout for subsonic rounds the barrels have a twist rate useful for heavy rounds. I'd also say the brass is easier to come by since you can just reform 5.56 brass. Even factoring in the time to convert the brass it still seems cheaper than buying boxer primed 7.62x39 brass.

As to the adjustable gas system on the AK, the only one I know about is the Yugoslavian M-90A/M-95 which is chambered in 5.56 nato. But the Yugo 7.62x39 AKs and SKS's have the gas cutoff for launching grenades. I bet a clever fellow could adapt that into an adjustable gas system.

ETA - I guess the Saiga-12 is an AK with an adjustable gas system. Not that it is relevant to this discussion.

[Russel Nash]

Yeah, if you live in a free-er state, and don't have an AR or an AK already, yeah, sure it makes sense to buy an AR in .300 AAC Blackout (which to me seems just like the .300 Whisper reinvented)

if you have an AK already, and you do live in a free-er state, just pay the $200 for the stamp and get a suppressor. then try reloading your own heavy bullet'ed rounds.

I remember all the hype that first surrounded the 6.8 SPC and 6.5 Grendel.

I suspect in 2 years we'll be going ".300 Blackout, who? what?"

[WilNsc]

The main hype around the .300 blk is that you only need 1 part to reliably run sub-sonic .30 caliber ammo in an AR.

The 7.62X39 conversion kits replace the BCG, mag and barrel. The biggest problem, besides feeding, is that the center of the bolt face has to be opened up some for the larger diamater case, causing the metal to be thinned and the cracks forming in the locking lug area.

Both rounds are nearly identical in ballistics, it's just using modified 5.56 cases with the blackout has a huge advantage in parts cost, reliability in both feeding and extraction since all parts are standard AR parts, and availability of brass cases.

[Russel Nash]

yeah, Robert Silvers and Advanced Armament Corp hit a homerun with that idea.


I will have to go back through my old copy of the A, B, C's of Reloading. It had an article in it about J.D. Jones and the .300 Whisper. It sounds to me like J.D. Jones came up with the Whisper about 20 years too soon.

[Russel Nash]

I've been doing some google'ing and especially image google'ing about suppressors and baffles. Oh, and I have watched a bunch of YouTube videos.

I am shocked at what these suppressor companies are charging for a little tube of steel/aluminum/titanium filled with either slanted washers or engine block freeze plugs basically.

If I lived over in Missouri, I would definitely be looking into getting a Class III SOT (or at least that is what I think it is called).

yeah, you're absolutely right about converting .223 brass to .300 Blackout brass. I have seen some neat set ups on YouTube.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

Russell,

you have to understand that JD is considered a low life prick by many in the industry. He thought he could get rich copyrighting case designs, but alienated enough people that nobody will touch his stuff.

The original 300 Whisper is formed by necking up 221 Fireball brass. It makes for a very thin neck. The 300 BLK is a simple pass thru the FL sizer with anybody's 223 case. Thicker neck = extended case life. You would have to ream casenecks to be able to load it in the Whisper, which is only slightly preferable to being poked in the testicles with a cattle prod repeatedly if you are doing a couple hundred cases.

IMHO, Hornady has has backed the wrong horse in this race. Not very many shooters will go along with their notion that you can shoot Whisper in the BLK chambers. Most like the headstamp to match the barrel stamp.

You in Granite City or Belleville?

Rich
ex-GC

[Russel Nash]

was J.D. Jones considered a "low life prick" before he came up with the .300 Whisper?

before he put a copyright on the ".300 Whisper" moniker?

you would think the guy who came up with the 6.5 Grendel would have learned from J.D. Jones's lack of success with the .300 Whisper and trademarks/copyrights.

[Russel Nash]

leave Belleville, first cornfield on the right.

[leadman]

I have chronographed a few different 7.62X39 loads in an SKS and most run 2,400 to 2,500 fps here in the summer. My 18" Contender barrel with 1 in 8 twist will do about 2,200 fps with a 125gr Nosler BT. Seems the edge goes to the X39 by a healthy margin.

I haven't loaded any full power 110gr jacketed loads in my barrel but is this the bullet and velocity figure you are comparing to the X39?

I use both 221 expanded up and 223 reformed to 300 W. I do not have to turn necks on my brass.
I thought I read that the 300 BO was designed so the necks did not have to be turned. Am I incorrect?

I don't understand the reason the BO was designed as the Whisper works and the 300/221 is pretty much the same and gets around J.D. Jone.

Is there something about using the Whisper in an AR platform that gives problems?

[Russel Nash]

I think the "Whisper" name and concept kinda died on the vine when J.D. Jones copyrighted or trademarked the name. Doing that ...well...It kinda painted himself into a corner where he was the only one who could market it.

The .300 Advanced Armament Corporation Blackout round is as prominent as it is today at the end of 2011 because it is what happens when you have the marketing budgets of a suppressor manufacturer AND an ammo manufacturer (Remington) both pushing for it.

And....

AND!!!

the power of the internet and internet forums.

If we had the internet in 1990 like we do now, we would all be like "Pfft! Who needs a .300AAC Blackout?!?! Doesn't everybody already have a .300 Whisper!?!?"

on another forum, Robert Silvers himself (aka rsilvers) has chimed in on the effectiveness of the .300 AAC Blackout.

Imagine if it was 1993, we would have had J.D. Jones coming online here right now talking about great his .300 Whisper(c) is.

[Russel Nash]

oh...yeah... couple the internet forum craze with the "Evil Black Rifle" craze that went into full throttle mode ever since Obama got elected.

I was at a gunstore yesterday...just hanging out BS'ing with the owner when a guy came in off the street asked about a Rock River Arms AR15 hanging on the wall.

I poop you not! It was all of five minutes from the time that guy entered the store till he was filling out the Form 4473.


So now you have all these guys with these black rifles who are either looking to shoot a more powerful round out of it or shoot it suppressed or both, and all they have to do is take their .223 barrel off, put the .300 Blackout barrel in...so basically 200 bucks and they have got a new/different rifle.

it really is like lego blocks or Barbie for men.

[Artful]

it really is like lego blocks or Barbie for men.

Barbie is exactly what my wife calls my AR's (and hers).

As far as the cartridge both 7.62x39 and 300 BLK are very similar in performance
(as is the old .30-30). From single shot suppressed stand point it wouldn't be
much difference (more powder means harder to suppress aka more noise might come out)

Now platform wise the AR is quieter than AK due to design, the AK releases the gas to open air near the muzzle when the pressure is higher than the AR which releases the gas into the action at which point the gas pressure is down some. You will have people note that the sound is quieter on the non-ejection port side of an AR.
The AR is also easier to modify to get to work with lower pressure subsonic loadings. Modifications like pistol port length barrels and change of spring rates, Heavier Buffers can help tune your gun for your load. People have even developed dual ported barrels for AR platform with multiple gas blocks with shutoffs.

As far as Mr Jones marketing strategy, I think it speaks for itself. The 300 Whisper product is well known, but I think the 300 Blackout has already eclipsed it in number of makers, products offered, available ammo and acceptance by public. [smilie=1:

As far as the pricing of a suppressor, remember you are also paying for all the people in the back office doing the paperwork and the R&D for better products. American rifle suppressors generally speaking are not freeze plugs or flat washer designs.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v355/rowdyfisk/Misc/suppressor-x-ray.jpg

[Artful]

I have chronographed a few different 7.62X39 loads in an SKS and most run 2,400 to 2,500 fps here in the summer. My 18" Contender barrel with 1 in 8 twist will do about 2,200 fps with a 125gr Nosler BT. Seems the edge goes to the X39 by a healthy margin.

Actually the heavier the bullet weight the less the edge and remember for subsonic the limit for Velocity is speed of sound conditions (a little over 1000 fps), and the 300/221 can make that speed with less powder so less gas pressure to have to suppress.

I haven't loaded any full power 110gr jacketed loads in my barrel but is this the bullet and velocity figure you are comparing to the X39?

I use both 221 expanded up and 223 reformed to 300 W. I do not have to turn necks on my brass.
I thought I read that the 300 BO was designed so the necks did not have to be turned. Am I incorrect?

The chamber is the determining factor if you have a true tight necked JD Jones 300 Whisper chamber you should not be use unturned 223 formed Whisper brass.
300 Blackout chamber is larger in the Neck to eliminate the danger for those that use 223 to form cases.
But one who necks brass down should always measure and check their loaded rounds to assure the brass has room to let the bullet go, as that process thickens the neck. When you neck up it thins the brass neck so less chance of a problem.

I don't understand the reason the BO was designed as the Whisper works and the 300/221 is pretty much the same and gets around J.D. Jone.

Blackout was designed by AAC/Remington to be a SAAMI cartridge, with uniform dimensions as the 300/221 or 300 Fireball or any number of different chamberings all differ slightly in dimensions - it also was designed to fire 300 Whisper ammo and to use necked down 223 without problems as opposed to 300 Whisper which was designed to use necked up 221 fireball brass which makes for thinner necks.

Is there something about using the Whisper in an AR platform that gives problems?


Nope, Whisper will work fine in the AR platform it's that the cartridge was never SAAMI spec'd and the legal requirements put forth by J.D.Jones the copyright holder. Remington would be like Hornady, RCBS and Thompson/Center and pay J.D.Jones for each product marked with 300 Whisper

http://www.quarterbore.com/300whisper/jdnote.html

[Russel Nash]

Artful wrote:



As far as the pricing of a suppressor, remember you are also paying for all the people in the back office doing the paperwork and the R&D for better products. American rifle suppressors generally speaking are not freeze plugs or flat washer designs.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v355/rowdyfisk/Misc/suppressor-x-ray.jpg



Yeah, I have seen that picture before. It is really, really cool! I'd be curious as to who actually took that Xray and/or who the first was to post it.

Yeah, this past week I have had some time to kill so I have been image google searching M and K baffles and Nielsen devices and DeLisle designs, etc.

I would be curious to see actual results of say a homemade suppressor versus something from AAC or Gemtech with decibel meter results nearby.

My point being.....other than me being a cheapskate stuck behind the Iron Curtain of Illinois where NFA stuff is verboten...does paying out say an extra $700 for the real deal net you that much more in decibel noise reduction versus a homemade jobbie???

Oh, yeah, I understand that there are engineers, CAD programmers, machinists, CNC booths, raw materials purchasers, salesman, marketing staff, etc...etcetera to pay for when a seven hundred something dollar suppressor gets sold.

Just my rudimentary knowledge of suppressors I have gathered you have to slow down the gases/air....there's more to it, I know, but I dont' want to ramble on.

[Artful]

You like X-rays check out Steve Miller's work
http://www.laumont.com/laumontGallery.html
http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/2010/01/02/x-ray-gun-photos/
http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/xray-glock.jpg
http://static.desktopnexus.com/thumbnails/46418-bigthumbnail.jpg
http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Laumont_glock_ad_F-1.jpg
http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/xray-m16-2.jpg
Comparisons are out there but not always free
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyTjlCD_stQ&feature=plcp&context=C306a793UAOEgsToPDskI6_mZSeWQ-aGHaCuRbilrF
http://www.youtube.com/user/arevalosocom/videos
also check out
http://www.silencerforum.com/forum/forum.php
here's some old ones from Mr Silver's original Silencertest.com
http://silencertalk.com/results.htm

Someone with good background in suppressor design/mfg could make a home made suppressor without too much effort for a 22LR but I'd want all the professionalism I can get with a 308 can. - for 9mm you might be able to copy someone's work and make something decent if you had prints/pic's/x-ray and the machine shop and skills to do the work. But remember once you file your form 1 and get approval it's only for making it once. You can't register a tube and keep remaking the innards for that you need to become an SOT.

[leadman]

I think 303Guy makes his own suppressors, but he is in New Zeeland.

Is it legal for a private individual to make a silencer as long as they pay the tax? I know an individual can make a gun for himself, but if he did it for others he would have to be licensed.

My "300 Whisper" is not an SSK barrel. another custom builder here in AZ. made it at least 10 years ago. I bought it used from a gun shop. The neck is about .020" longer than the true 300 Whisper. For awhile I was refoming the 223 to 300W and trimming it longer, but I also have necked up 221 so decided to just use that length. I saw no major advantage to the longer brass.

[Artful]

You can make your own silencer/suppressor with Form 1 approval - you will have to decide upon diameter the can will accept (9mm, 30 cal etc) and the outside dimensions of the can to put on the form 1 before submitting it. If you decide to do this as an individual you will need MCSO signoff and the Form 1 will need fingerprint cards and passport sized photo's of the applicant. If you create either LLC or Trust then you can skip the MSCO/prints/photo's - Remember you'll need the ability to make the can or you must be present while anyone works on the raw materials for your suppressor.

[leadman]

I have a old small Craftsman lathe and the trust. Many of my guns have threaded barrels with brakes on them that part of the job is done. Now I need to work on my knowledge and skill level on the lathe.
Can a supressor be moved from gun to gun legally? I have several 30 calibers, including the 300 Whisper that one can would work on if it is ok to move it.

[Artful]

Yep, you can move it from gun to gun - I use the same can on Mosin-Nagant 7.62x54R, all my threaded 308 rifles, 243 bolt gun. For subsonic only you can use a 9mm can on your 300 whisper without problem - so if the can you make is cleanable you can use on 9mm, 38 spl, subsonic 300 whisper, 22LR
basically anything smaller than 9mm with same or lower pressure at the muzzle.

[Russel Nash]

youtube search results:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7p9nuylaag

you can see the gases spiraling around in this slo-mo video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPqa3teOQkA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86-TFXuUSvQ&feature=endscreen&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1b6mthrUJc

http://www.youtu.be/watch?v=0nPaV1jwKDo

google search results:

http://www.modernrifle.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=19231&start=200

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_20/287091_Who_is_making_suppressors_out_of_fender_was hers_and_freeze_plugs_.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppressor

[Russel Nash]

DISCLAIMER: I don't know about all the various features that other manufacturers build into their suppressors, but I thought these guys had a couple of good ideas:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=texEzvXnmdk

[Artful]

DISCLAIMER: I don't know about all the various features that other manufacturers build into their suppressors, but I thought these guys had a couple of good ideas:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=texEzvXnmdk

Notice the amount of blowback coming out the ejection port - that's one reason I like 308 can on my AR - it cuts back on that and makes a deeper tone. :bigsmyl2:

[Russel Nash]

if you are shooting an AR in the common nose to charging handle position or form, with a suppressor on, do you get more gas escaping around the end of the charging handle and squirting you in the face or eyes (even with safety glasses on) ?

I know at least one company makes a "gasbuster" charging handle. It is milled with channels or ports on the underside so that the gases escape through the side and not straight back at you.

[trickyasafox]

to be honest, the 300 aac blackout was attractive to me because I could use my NY compliant high capacity mags. That makes sense for a lot of us in ban states.

[Artful]

if you are shooting an AR in the common nose to charging handle position or form, with a suppressor on, do you get more gas escaping around the end of the charging handle and squirting you in the face or eyes (even with safety glasses on) ?

I know at least one company makes a "gasbuster" charging handle. It is milled with channels or ports on the underside so that the gases escape through the side and not straight back at you.

Gas buster isn't 100% gas free -
http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=6&f=20&t=330010

I get much less blowback from 223 thru charging handle with 30 cal suppressor than dedicated 223 suppressor.
I did the RTV fix of my charging handle rather than spend the extra for a non-milspec part for my AR.

http://www.ar-15.co/forums/showthread.php?t=10446