New vaquero strength

[Mumblypeg]

Does anyone know how strong the Ruger New Vaquero is, as in would it handle 10 grns of Unique Ok?

[416Rodney]

As I understand it Mumbly, we are to consider the New Vaquero on a par with the third generation Colt Peacemaker. It ain't no Blackhawk, but it wasn't intended to be.

[cohland]

Does anyone know how strong the Ruger New Vaquero is, as in would it handle 10 grns of Unique Ok?

What weight bullet would you use with that much Unique?

Chris

[2ndAmendmentNut]

As others have said the "New" Vaqueros are not Blackhawks. Stay in the 14,000cup range or the "standard" section of the load manuals, which by the way lists 9.0grs of Unique as Max with a 250gr boolit. What weight boolit you going to use?

[tek4260]

http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/HL%20246partial.pdf

20K for the New Vaquero

[Mumblypeg]

Kinda what I was thinking. A friend has a new one. We're gona try 9grs of unique with a 250grainer. Thanks.

[tek4260]

Kind of hard to see the group from this scan, but this is 6 shots at 25 with 12gr of HS-6 and the Mihec 270SAA HP. Would have made a fine 5 shot group, but I had to try for 6 and blew it. The New Vaquero's along with the Mid-frame Flattops are some of the best assembled Rugers IMHO

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm35/tk3945/NV270hp12grhs-6.jpg

[Four Fingers of Death]

I have a pair of 45 NMVs, great guns, I have never tried to load to hot levels (got supa black hawks for that!), but when I didn't have time to reload when my late wife was on the ropes, I bought a swag of John Wayne ammo (cost me $AU82 for 50 :( , but it was either that or don't shoot!). I never chrono'd them, but they were fairly humming along. Spat the base pin forward every now and then, just pushed it back in and kept shooting, lol.

I bought a pair of 357 SASS Vaqueros for my wife, mannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn! They are sweet guns! Tempted to buy a pair of SASS 45s for myself, but with 2xROAs, 2x45 NMVs and three ietta 44/40s, I can't really justify it.

[bowfin]

How does one tell the difference between a new Vaquero and the older, stronger Vaqueros?...

...and why the switch?

[Von Dingo]

How does one tell the difference between a new Vaquero and the older, stronger Vaqueros?...

...and why the switch?

In a nutshell, here's the dope http://www.gunblast.com/Ruger-NewVaquero.htm . The only fly in the ointment is the NV .44 Spc's are marked Vaquero, no new on them. The last I heard, Ruger is still marking New Vaquero on the frame, if not in the literature or website.

[44MAG#1]

I use 18.5 gr 2400 with a 255 to 270 gr "Keith" bullet (454424 Lyman and a Mihec 270 SAA bullet) and also 13 gr HS-6. Also 24 gr H110 with both said bullets.
This is in the smaller frame Vaquero also know as the New Vaquero.
Before anyone grabs their chest in Fred Sanford style these three loads were recommended to me by one of the TOP custom revolver builders that everyone thinks so highly of with 24 H110 being his favorite. And he knows mine is the smaller frame Vaquero.

[tek4260]

I use 18.5 gr 2400 with a 255 to 270 gr "Keith" bullet (454424 Lyman and a Mihec 270 SAA bullet) and also 13 gr HS-6. Also 24 gr H110 with both said bullets.
This is in the smaller frame Vaquero also know as the New Vaquero.
Before anyone grabs their chest in Fred Sanford style these three loads were recommended to me by one of the TOP custom revolver builders that everyone thinks so highly of with 24 H110 being his favorite. And he knows mine is the smaller frame Vaquero.



I honestly think it would stand up to 24gr H110 with a 270. Besides, is a New Vaquero any thinner at the bolt notches than a Blackhawk?

With all that said, the pucker factor might be a bit high at first :)

[felix]

It might have been decided to make that new cowboy gun with the latest metallurgy that Ruger obtained just for the 6 hole cylinders using 454s at 60K psi. If so, that metal will hold up to anything a cowboy would put into it. The new metal is lighter and much tougher than standard 4140 that most other Ruger guns are made from. I do not know the name of that metal composition, but Ruger made it allowable for the specialty mill to make it public rather than Ruger/mill private. Prolly a call to the manufacturing plant's engineer will know. ... felix

[EDK]

Why tempt fate and load the smaller VAQUERO hot? Even if the gun will stand up to that level of load, your arms and wrists won't! If you want high performance, get a full sized gun with adjustable sights! I'm real happy with mid range loads in my Original Size VAQUEROS/BISLEY VAQUEROS in 357 and 44.

UNCLE ED'S LAWS FOR PISTOL SHOOTERS:

1. If they don't make a carbide die for it, forget it!

2. If YOU have to load it to maximum, you need a bigger caliber gun.

:Fire::cbpour::redneck:

[bigted]

im definetly with the "why the heck would ya" crowd. they make larger revolvers for this kinda stuff. im only too happy with my 9 grain loads of unique and mostly for reg shooting i load 6 grains behind the 250 grain boolits. they are pleasant and easy on me and the gun [ gun being a "new vaquero ]...got a 629 shooting 300's for when i wanna play like im killin a grizz in a hurry.

[Four Fingers of Death]

The only reason that would make me try a bit hotter than normal would be if I could only afford the one revolver. If I could only afford one revolver, it would be a blackhawk which is pretty much bomproof.

[44MAG#1]

I have several revolvers that are much more powerful. I was just stating what a WELL KNOWN and much Respected custom pistolsmith told me. I most of the time or should say 90 percent of the time use 6 gr Bullseye or 8.0 to 8.5 gr Unique or 9.2 gr Power Pistol in mine. Good to know that a man can use a load that was used in the Colt SAA revolvers can be used in recently made New Vaqueros made by Ruger.
Also ruger has offered New Vaqueros with a 45 ACP cylinder that can use +P ammo since no warning not to was given.
How much chamber pressure do the +P 45 ammo run????
Just my thoughts. Take them as you will.

[Von Dingo]

The new issue of Handloader has an extensive article on the new Lipseys Flattop .45 convertable midframe Blackhawks by Brian Pearce. In it he wrote that he checked with Ruger and they stated it was safe with .45 ACP +P factory. Readers Digest version, they are safe with 23,000 PSI. If one has the different articles from the last several years about the .45 Colt from Handloader, you have a good idea about Brian's tiers of .45 Colt pressures. These are some of the more accessable references, I don't recall hearing of any other sources of 20-23,000 psi loading references for the .45 Colt. In a nutshell, a 280-300 gr slug around 1100 fps, which is no slouch in any way, and with the XR-3 gripframe that is about the limit of comfort.

[MtGun44]

Felix - There was an article on this alloy in one of the engineering mags a while back. The
alloy was developed by Carpenter Steel specifically for the .454 and .480 cylinders. I have
no idea if they are using it elsewhere, but it is a stainless steel type of alloy, so it would be
difficult to match a cylinder of this material to a blued gun.

My bet is that they are using an ordinary good grade of heat treated chrome moly steel like
4140 or similar. Personally, I'd do whatever RUger recommends.

Pushing the limits does nothing good for the life of the gun. It seems like if you really
NEED that kind of power, why get a small framed Vaquero when there are BHs and Super
BHs out there?

Bill

[Four Fingers of Death]

The new issue of Handloader has an extensive article on the new Lipseys Flattop .45 convertable midframe Blackhawks by Brian Pearce. In it he wrote that he checked with Ruger and they stated it was safe with .45 ACP +P factory. Readers Digest version, they are safe with 23,000 PSI. If one has the different articles from the last several years about the .45 Colt from Handloader, you have a good idea about Brian's tiers of .45 Colt pressures. These are some of the more accessable references, I don't recall hearing of any other sources of 20-23,000 psi loading references for the .45 Colt. In a nutshell, a 280-300 gr slug around 1100 fps, which is no slouch in any way, and with the XR-3 gripframe that is about the limit of comfort.

I had a pair of 45 Convertible Blackhawks and the 45ACP only was accurate when pushed flat out, which pretty much defeated the purpose so I sold them. I sorta missed the idea of having a 45Colt Blackhawk, so I bought a 4 5/8" convertible second hand.

[bowfin]

From the Gunblasts article: "While shooters have taken to the original Vaquero in droves, some have complained that the revolver was a bit too large."

Why would we care, if we are all cowboys and are on horseback?...:kidding:

I agree that anyone wanting a stronger sidearm would no doubt gravitate towards the Ruger Blackhawk with adjustable sights.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I have said this many times before, so excuse me if you have heard it already, but whilst the original Vaq was available, many, many shooter bemoaned the fact that it was so large and would be better at Colt size. No sooner than Ruger cater for this by introducing the new model vaq than another (presumably) group of shooters now bemoan the loss of the old big framed (blunt object) Ruger.

I love my Super Blackhawks, but for a hip riding wear all day working, cowboy gun the new model takes a lot of beating.

I thnk yo have to access your hunting/shooting needs. If it is heavy hunting, long range and silly wets. the SBH is the go. If its a cowboy gun, the NMV is the Ruger of choice.

[EDK]

I got interested in Original Size VAQUEROS/BISLEY VAQUEROS, in 357 and 44 magnum, about a year before the NEW VAQUERO arrived. One plus was that they fit my Cowboy Action leather for BLACKHAWKS. I have no problem wearing two or three to walk down to my target range. I had horses for 42 years...don't now...but less than a pound difference on guns wasn't a lot when the big Appaloosa was carrying my 220 pounds and a 35 pound western saddle.

If you like NEW VAQUEROS, more power to you. We won't be bidding against each other on the various internet auctions that way. I got A SMOKIN' DEAL on a 7.5 inch 44 on gunbroker last month and did even better locally on another 44 that someone had cut to 3.5 inches a la Sheriffs Model NEW VAQUERO.

Just don't get too enthusiastic loading a NEW VAQUERO in 45 Colt. You wanted a "COLT size gun" with RUGER lockwork...you got it...BUT it won't like 'RUGER LEVEL loads!"

:redneck::cbpour::Fire:

[Char-Gar]

Once upon a time, I shot 10/Unique/260 Keith SWC from a Colt New Service. Primers were flatter than a fritter, but there were no sticking cases. After a few hundred rounds of this, wisdom and prudence kicked in and I backed off to 8.5/Unique. That is where I have been for since 1967.

There is no reason to try and hot the 45 Colt round in that New Vaquero, just because you can. There is nothing to be gained and the potential to lose something valuable. There is nothing you can kill or shoot with 10 grains you can't kill or shoot just as well with 8.5.

If you need to drive a bigger nail, get a bigger hammer.

[44MAG#1]

Well i made a statement stating what a Very well known and respected Custom Pistolsmith told me about the New Vaquero and it has brought on a deluge of gloom and doom on loading for the New Vaquero. I stated that I use loads from 6.0 bullseye to 9.2 gr Power pistol most of the time. I do not use heavy loads much at all except for an occasional few shots with 18.5 gr 2400 with 255 to 270 gr Mihec SAA bullets.
Now not trying to make anyone mad but using the mind set most have, if we take a 44 Mag revolver using a 250 gr SWC with 22 gr 2400 we can deduce that that load wont kill anything any better than 20 gr 2400 or that 20 gr 2400 wont kill anything any than 17.5 2400 and that that wont kill anything any better than 7.5 gr Unique ot 7.5 unique won't kill anything any better than 6.5 Unique till pretty soon we can get to the point we could just use a blowgun and not even us a powder powered gun. That is the mind set I am gleening from this on the 45 Colt. So why are there heavy loads listed for any caliber since light loads will do all the work?
I am trying to interject some humor in this but it seems like what I originally posted has gotten twisted till it means that everyone should load heavy loads for their New Vaquero and that wasn't even close to what I said.
I am sorry it was taken that way. Load what you will. It is your gun. Load it ultra light to ultra heavy and anywhere in between. Everyone is free to do as they please.
Just go back and read the OP question. I answered it just as well as anyone else that followed.

[tek4260]

Would a 300gr cast loafing along at 1057fps be considered a stout load in a 45 Colt?

[44MAG#1]

With the new mind set on power less is more. I would strive to maybe get 500 to no more than 505 fps from said 300 gr. A 160 at 450 would be even better.
:-):-):-):-):-)

[Char-Gar]

44mag#1.. There are handguns loads that are effective and handgun loads that are ineffective. There are handgun loads that kill game dead, but no handgun loads that kill game deader. There are handgun loads that punch holes in targets or beer cans, but there are no handgun loads that punch better holes in targets or beer cans.

So, unless the extra velocity is needed to produce more energy/penetration to kill bigger game, there is no need, to push the velocity more than needed to make the round effective, for a lesser task. The extra powder/velocity/energy that is not needed goes into muzzle blast, recoil, wear on the handgun and wear on the shooter's hand.

Now, I understand there are folks who just want to shoot the biggest baddest load they can find in their handgun, just because. That is their handgun, their hands and their choice. If somebody needs or wants the extra horsepower, then go for it. But realize there are consequences.

There are some of us around that have fired big boomer handguns so long our hands, wrists and elbows have suffered significant damage from the "fun" we had years ago. We wish older heads had given us some counsel on the subject before we did the damage to our selves, because it hurts like Hades now. Would we have paid attention to that counsel? Some would and some would not.

As to folks twisting what you said, I don't know anything about that, as I did not and have not read your earlier post. Don't take differences of opinions as an attack, for they are just that..difference of opinions.

[Lloyd Smale]

16 grains of unique will bulge a cylinder. Ask me how i know ;)

[Potsy]

Lloyd has pointedly illustrated why I'm more fearfull of loading 9.0 grn. of Universal than 20 grn. of 2400 in my Bisley (IT'S A FULL SIZE BLACKHAWK FRAME, NOT THE NMV!!! 20 GRN. 2400UNDER A 270-SAA IS NOT RECOMMENDED IN A NMV!!!).
Check, re-check, and check again when loading powders that won't overflow the case if double charged. Regardless of frame size.

[mike454]

I've shot a 270 saa bullet in a 5.5 inch colt SAA at 1300 FPS. Not my gun or my load. A guy I know shoots the load quite a bit. and let me try it out. In one of Brian Pearce's articles he list the load at about 23,000 psi with the keith 260 bullet at a bit under 1200fps. Replace the 260 bullet with a 285 and leave the powder charge the same you pick up about 150 fps and I can only assume quite a bit of pressure. The problem it that the load hurts...bad. With the small gripframe the gun is hard to hold onto. You can replace the grip frame on the rugers with a bisley gripframe to make it easier to shoot. Now you have a small cylindered 45 colt bisley that weighs 2 oz less than the full size gun. and gives up 50 grains of bullet weight because of the shorter, weaker cylinder.

[drklynoon]

I have an Old Model Vaquero. An easy way to tell the difference if you are unfamiliar with the gun is to open the loading gate and to rotate the cylinder to the stop. If the chamber lines up then it's a new model. As far as The toughness of them. I don't like to push my old model that hard. Now when I get my bisley blackhawk in .45 colt that is going to be a different story. The reason I want a higher velocity load is for longer range paper punching.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I don't think you can treat an original Vaq as a Blackhawk, at least not for squillions of hot loads because the frame at the front of the BHs over the barrel threads is a very thick, heavy one, but on the Vaquero it slims right down. I put a few hundred hot loads through mine when I had it as it was my first 44Mag. After awhile I thought it was prudent to buy a Blackhawk for this type of work.

[drklynoon]

Concerning the strength of the Original Vaquero I have been told that they are capable of published Black Hawk Loads. My problem with this is that I am uncertain about the lock work's strength. I shoot 6.0 gr of trailboss with a 424255 lyman keith style bullet. I get good accuracy at distances out to 20 yards. I have shot respectable three or four inch groups at 50 but the sights don't lend themselves to great accuracy. One thing I have yet to master is my understanding of how chamber pressures and gun strength interact. I understand High pressures busting a cylinder but cutting or cracking a top strap should come from a different force. .357 pressures are much higher than published standard .45 loads but the danger of destroying a gun or your hand seems higher with the .45 even though the cylinder strength is not in question. None of this may make sense, sleep has eluded me this evening.

[Lloyd Smale]

a old model vaquero will take anything a blackhawk will. 475s have been built on them. They run more pressure then ruger level 45 colts do and have more bolt thrust buy a good bit and the frames hold up just fine. I personaly have two 500 linebaughs built on vaqueros and they work just fine on that frame. I dont recall ever hearing of a vaquero frame stretching of failing. I once had a 45 vaquero back in my younger dumber days that i shot with some pretty ungodly loads. I wont post them but they were up in 5 shot teritory. I shot the gun loose eventually but all it took was a new cylinder and some fitting by dave clements and it was better then new.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I stand corrected, I figured that Ruger wouldn't make a gun look ugly (and the front of the top strap on the BHs is chunky on the side of ugly, it spoils the lines of the gun) anf thick if it wasn't necessary.

The main reason I went to a NMSBH *** well as the Vaq was that one come up for a good price, so I hopped on it and gave the Vaq a rest.

[bigted]

gotta wonder what has become so much tougher now then 100 years ago...my point is this...38 to 40 grains of 2f black powder behind a 250 or 255 grain cast boolit with the smallest flat on the nose has and will kill anything that can be hit with a ressonable good shot and this has been born out from the inception of this great ol shooter called the 45 colt...[ sometimes eroniously called the LONG colt] .

this grand ol shooter has killed everything from empty whiskey bottles to buf and literally everything in between. so my origanal question persists...that is what has the need of so much more power now as opossed to then?

dont like the smoke and sparks of black powder....then the 8.5 to 9 grains of unique will replicat the origanal bp loads in fine shape and these are good levels in any sixgun that is safe to shoot....from old to new.

why get this old workhorse if you have no faith in it to begin with? the NEW rugers are all very capable of these kind of loads and will digest them...[either the bp loads or the unique loads] for more years then we have to devote to them.

just an opinion from a loony ol man that is more then half way thru my century of livin.

[drklynoon]

Well I imagine it's a kin to having a 500 hp sports car. You don't really get anywhere any faster but it has a draw. I want a faster load for better stability and less bullet drop for 50 yards shooting. Some guys want their favorite gun to be able to kill any animal they may stumble upon ie boar and bear. Some guys just like to have a fire breathing hard kicking wow factor when they shoot. I know for certain that htter loads do not always equal better accuracy and I am an accuracy shooter so I experiment till I find the right load for the distance I want to shoot. The .45 colt is a great round and behind a ruger it is capable of great flexability. In that regaurd I suppose that is why I want all of them.

[Frank]

tek4260:

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm35/tk3945/NV270hp12grhs-6.jpg

Your good group was noted. [smilie=s:

[Four Fingers of Death]

I was in Sydney today and picked up two handguns from two different gunsmiths (These guys are unsmiths as I call them, ironing out work that was faulty from other 'gunsmiths.'

The Pietta Colt Clone was difficult to find the second notch as the tune up guy broke a bit off the notch. The other one was a brand new Ruger Old Army, that locked up coming out of the box as I started to cock it to check the nipples. Pulled the back off it a few times and reset the spring and it would do the same everytime. The big shop interstate was the only shop that imported these make up guns. For me to return it, I would have had to get a gun dealer to post it for me (I can't ship a firearm over a state line, I can carry it over, but not ship it). Handling at both end was going to cost a minimum of $100, so I just paid to fix it (easiest was to get warrantly issues sorted in Australia.

The other handgun was an older NMSBH with a 10 1/2" Bbl that wouldn't fit into my safe without knocking the alarm switch off, so I got it lopped to 7 1/2." I had the Colt Pietta and the SBH in my left hand as I opened the safe, I looked down and was amazed at teh size difference. No wonder the SBHs are bomb proof! It looks like a blunt object beside the Colt Clone.

Anyway, when I got home I gave them

[tek4260]

Here is your load in print 44MAG#1

http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=12

[tek4260]

tek4260:
Your good group was noted. [smilie=s:

Out of the dozens of Rugers I have owned, this is the only one that shot that good bone stock out of the box. The rest required reaming and FC work.

[44MAG#1]

tek4260:
I've read that before. What are you getting at? I know what John Linebaugh says about the S&W 45 Colt but maybe I've missed something.
That 24.0 grs. of H110 is a good load too. I've shot it in my New Vaquero some.
I've also shot 18.5 gr 2400 too. I prefer the 2400 load though.

[tek4260]

I'm just saying that in the Handloader article the Level II loads are listed for both the New Vaquero and the Smith 25, which puts them in the same strength category, so it agrees with Linebaugh's load listed in the article. In other words, 24gr of H110 would be safe.

In Linebaugh's writings on the 45, he states that if you are not getting velocity close to his, you simply aren't building pressure(this was when he was discussing fast/slow lots of H110/W296). I have been underwhelmed by the velocities I get, therefore I think part of it is that I am not building pressure. Probably due to boolit design, which is a whole nother discussion.

[Lloyd Smale]

I personaly wouldnt be afraid to shoot 24 grains of 110 in mine. As a matter of fact i have in mine. Ive got a bit older and bit less conserned with pushing the limit and I just feel a bit funny recomending it to someone else. Id hate to have someone tell me there gun blew up with my load so my recomendation with 110 is to stick to about 22 grains. that is plenty safe with a 250 cast bullet. Bottom line is at 24 your probably never going to blow up but i dont know how well it will hold up to thousands of them without shoot loose. Keep one thing in mind with John Linebaughs recomendation. If he shoots one of his smiths loose he has the knowlege and the machinery to make it right again. Most of us dont. Ill say it this way. I dont doubt my rugers will occasionaly see that load again but my smiths never will. My 45 colt loads for smiths end at 18 grains of 2400 or 20 of aa9 or 22 of 110.

[mannyCA]

Out of my new SS Lipsey's .45 convertible, which if I understand correctly is the same frame the NMV, I've gotten approx 1130 fps with 18.5 gr of 2400 and a 290 gr KT. Very powerful load for a medium frame revolver which comes in at about 21 on the Taylor KO formula, I would feel pretty secure with this load against almost anything which roams North America.

[Lloyd Smale]

you betcha! Its about all the load i shoot out of any of my 45 colts or 44 mags anymore and with loads like that ive shot lots of critters.
Out of my new SS Lipsey's .45 convertible, which if I understand correctly is the same frame the NMV, I've gotten approx 1130 fps with 18.5 gr of 2400 and a 290 gr KT. Very powerful load for a medium frame revolver which comes in at about 21 on the Taylor KO formula, I would feel pretty secure with this load against almost anything which roams North America.

[swat113]

Finally got to shoot the loads Mumbly and I rolled the other day (9 gr Unique w/ 255 gr Kieth) they shot pretty accurate, no leading but very dirty. Whats ya'all's thoughts on same boolit with 13 gr HS6, Linebaugh states it's good for around 1000 fps and others have stated its cleaner burning.:redneck:

[454PB]

While reading the arguments pro and con concerning heavily loaded Ruger .45 Colt, I'm reminded of the saying while driving a car:

Everyone going slower than me is an idiot.......everyone going faster is a maniac.

[swat113]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_110194efe2db1a8841.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=3186)

freehand at 25 yards

[swat113]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_110194efe2e9d71d90.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=3187)

New Vaquero, needs ivory micarta grips:Fire:

[swat113]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_110194efe2f4f5a1ca.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=3188)

45 Colt, 255 gr Kieth, cast straight WW :grin:

[Wireman134]

Check this out. 20k psi.

http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/HL_234_preview.pdf

[swat113]

Check this out. 20k psi.

http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/HL_234_preview.pdf

from the article,
Considering the
steels Ruger is currently using and
with the above cylinder measurements,
indications are that the gun
is absolutely safe with loads that
generate 22,000 to 24,000 psi.

[tek4260]

Finally got to shoot the loads Mumbly and I rolled the other day (9 gr Unique w/ 255 gr Kieth) they shot pretty accurate, no leading but very dirty. Whats ya'all's thoughts on same boolit with 13 gr HS6, Linebaugh states it's good for around 1000 fps and others have stated its cleaner burning.:redneck:

Get a pound and try it. There is a reason Linebaugh speaks so highly of it..... :)