58 cal. tumbling

[stomper]

Hello, I'm new to this group. I have a 58 Zoli Zouave that I have had for over 40 years. It always shot very well at 100 yards. I have not used it in at least 15 years. However I have a muzzle loading permit to hunt deer this year. I took the rifle to the range expecting the same results. What I got was that I was lucky to hit the target never mind the bulls eye. And most shots went through sideways. I cast my own bullets with a lyman mold as I always have. I use 60 grains of 2F.The bullets run .580-.581 Dia. out of the mold and fit snug in the barrel. I even tried shooting some Hornady sabots and although they were a little better for accurracy they still tumbled. I really scrubbed the bore thinking that might be the problem but I didn't get any better results.

Anyone have any advice?
Thanks

[wgr]

try 70/80 grains of powder

[59sharps]

BY chance did you check your lead? maybe so hard lead got mixed in. thats the only think I can think of right now. Your using the same mold so size should not be part of the problem. Did you pull the breach plug?

[405]

Ya something changed! If that rifle has any kind of minie twist it's way too slow for sabots w/conicals... unless they are very short conicals or roundballs :). That bore twist might be as slow as 1:70"+. So agree with others, something wacky with the casting process or the alloy. Alloy too hard or blown skirts because of flaws/irregularities. Also, odd chance and I'd say very slim that the muzzle crown got a significant ding.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

With a lead minie' and a fairly close fit, even with a 40 grain charge of fffg the skirt and higher will expand even to include the rear cylindrical part of the nose and there should not be tumbling at reasonable ranges. The answer is not more powder. Even a well fitting somewhat alloyed minie'works.

Check to make sure the barrel is squeaky clean without leading and that the breech does not have hard, like cement fouling build up where the round interior wall of the barrel meets the face of the breech plug at a right angle. You can roll an undersize RB down the barrel to the breech plug as a reflector to check barrel cleanliness with a good focused flashlight, and if your barrel and plug face without the RB are clean and shiny a good light will let you see that there is no fouling build up.

Those that typically dry brush and lube when finished invariably end up cleaning the bottom of the barrel/breech plug area with a round, pointy tipped brush . Think about it. A 58 brush in a 58 bore at the breech has the downmost bristles angled back toward the muzzle. It does not clean the joint where the skirt sits above the powder. Remember the old rifleman's admonition not to reverse the brush in a bore. In a musket, that leads to fouling build up and brush destruction in a solid breech plug gun like a Zouave. Hard fouling builds up and may cause skirt deformation at the very base of the minie' if present. It is almost like a fillet of JB weld in bad cases. Something is causing the tumbling, It is not the charge, or a well cast bullet.

Now you can get the barrel well wetted with kroil or Ed's red and that will help if leading removal with good patches and a tight fitting jag is needed. You need to flush and look frequently with a closed breech. I also use a piece of green scrubber on a bit looser jag if leading is there. Unbreeching by an experienced person is required if fouling is heavily built up at the very plug/barrel joint.

The crown needs closely inspected for rod damage or uneven wear as most hold their guns the same when loading and sometimes............... happens.

Put a square on the muzzle and rotate it slowly to check. Set a larger bearing or marble on the muzzle and check.

Close examination is needed.

BvT

[rdstrain]

I think 59 Sharps may have hit it. If you lead is too hard the skirt won't upset and fill the bore, result, keyhole at very short range.

[Hellgate]

I found I needed DEAD soft lead for the minies. The MERELY soft lead I used for the C&Bs was too hard to get deent accuracy in my 58 cals. Harder lead will cast smaller eiameter bullets. Also there are a lot of voids produced when hand casting the minies. The real ones of the Civil War were swaged. You might want to weigh the minies and toss the light ones. Once the mold gets good & hot there are fewer rejects.

[405]

stomper,
This is a particularly tough question to answer because of the nature of minie ball bores, slow twist rates and the minie ball itself. The combination of slow twist, very shallow grooves, fragile skirted minie design and the nature of minie stability does not allow much margin for error for stable, accurate flight of the minie. As BvT spent time on, inspect that bore for accumulated fouling or pitting. 58 cals are big holes so inspection is not too hard. Also, you can "feel" for problems or roughness down near the bottom of the bore. Use a jag with medium to tight fitting, well lubed patch and slowly run it down to the breech. Even the least bit of roughness can be felt along the way. If there is fouling and/or roughness... tightly wrap some scotch brite, bronze wool or 4/0 steel wool around the jag, lube with something like Kroil and lay some elbow grease to that bore. If all is well, re-cast some soft minies making sure of full fill-out, use some soft lube, charge with 40-50 gr FFg BP and see what happens.

[Omnivore]

Bump, 'cause I want to know if Stomper solved the mystery, and how.

[59sharps]

Bump, 'cause I want to know if Stomper solved the mystery, and how.

yea me to. Since it was shooting fine when he put it away last. would like to know what changed. but he is probably out huning w/ it and will not let us know till after the weekend!

[Alan]

The 1:72 twists are fine for .58 conicals, but I like the 570 gr #57730 minie from Lyman. Nose heavy, and very accurate. However, for hunting I would much rather use a PRB anyway. More velocity, flatter trajectory, and plenty of slap.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Been shooting my Navy Arms Zouave for more than 20 years.. Switch to a .570 RB and 85 grains 2F and a tight linen patch. My Navy will shoot through 2 does standing side by side at 35 yards. Accuracy at 50 yards is less than 2". I tried them hollow base casting headaches.. regular,thin skirts, thick skirts, 50 grains up to 80 grains or 2F and 3F and nothing ever could come close to the lowly RB and 85 grains 2F. Have also used .575 RB with a thin linen patch which shoots just as good but is harder to load after 1 shot.
Mike in Peru Merry Christmas !

[stomper]

I want to thank all that replied to this proplem. I am at this point now. I switched to round ball and the rifle shoots reasonably well. However as I have until 12-30-11 to hunt and the range only open two days a week I won't get around to do some serious trouble shooting until next month. I am going to have to guess at the elevation as the rear sight will not lower enough to compensate for the round ball. If it groups decently I should be able to compensate as any shots will be within 75 yards or probably less. I have found some soft lead and have cast some new minnies. When I find what the real problem is I will get back to the group.
Thanks