Questions on 38s....

[jdgabbard]

Ok, per a discussion in another thread, I got to thinking about something. Sometimes as handloaders we stray away from the "published data." Either by necessity, there is no data for the type of boolit, with the type of powder, for the type of cartridge that we want to use. Case in point, some of our group buys.

Sometimes we stray from published data because we want something a little bit different.

Having said that, it has come to my light that I do have loads that push the envelope of what is max for the .38spl. This doesn't bother me much, as I normally do all of my 38spl shooting in either my 65 S&W, or my Ruger SP101 (.38spl). Both guns I believe are quite capable of handling what I feed them, or have at least so far. None of these loads are magnum loads, but I would say that a couple of these REALLY push the barrier of what we call +P loads.

Having said that, how different would you say pressure levels are between +P loadings, and 38/44 loadings? I'm looking at this not from a point of view of wanting to "rod" the cartridge. Rather, I'm examining loads that I've developed for my own guns. Found to be safe in "the guns I shoot" them in. And am wondering, are they closer to +p, or 38/44, or are the two close enough to be considered the same.

I can honestly say I've never owned 38/44. However, I've been under the impression that they are a hotter load than what you get out of the 38spl+p

Anybody want to chime in?

[btroj]

Everything I have seen shows the 38/44 is well beyond +P pressure levels.
I can see a purpose in 38/44 loads in that they allow the use of the more common 38 brass for heavier loads in my 357 guns. I don't see much we for a +P loads, not enough increase in velocity to make them worth while.
38/44 loads are much harder to find as they exceed "accepted" pressure levels. They definitely are best saved for use in a 357 or at least in a gun that also is chambered for 357.

[leadman]

One of the older Handloader magazines had an article about 38/44 loads. Some of the 158gr bullet loads were in 357 mag territory at appox. 1,200 fps.

[Piedmont]

I think the factory stated velocity back in the day for the .38-44 was 1100 fps. with a 158 grain. The FBI load (+p 158 grain) might hit 900 fps from a 4" barrel. That is the difference.

[Bret4207]

I'm also of the opinion the 38/44 data and loads are hotter than todays +p. Some of yesteryears 38 data was 38/44 +p++++++++!!!!! Gotta watch some of the old book loads.

[MGySgt]

When I started to get 'Custom' moulds a fellow member on here suggested I purchase the QuickLoad application.

That program keeps my guns safe by keeping my loads within a safe pressure range. You can input your special boolits.

I do shoot HOT 38's - but they are shot in one of my Mod 28's or my Security Six or my model 60 Chief Special (357).

I would not put any of these loads in a weapon that was only marked 38 Special.

Just me - I paid too much for my guns to destroy them by shooting overloads.

If I am shooting 38 caliber and I want 357 velocity/power - I shoot one of my 357's. Plinking rounds in 38 special brass go in either 38 or 357 guns.

[Larry Gibson]

In limited pressure testing (Oehler M43) of 38/44 loads with 2400 (12 - 13.5 gr) using a 150 gr 358477 I found the psi's to be very close to .357 psi's of WW, Rem and Fed 158 SWC factory loads. The MAP for those was in the 25 - 30,000 psi range. The 13.5 gr 2400 "38/44" load actually had a higher MAP that one of the factory .357 loads.

WW and Fed 150 gr HPSWC lead factory +P loads and a +P load of 5.5 gr Unique under the 150 gr 359477 had MAPs in the 18 - 20,000 psi range (where +P is supposed to be).

Larry Gibson

[MGySgt]

Larry - I shot a ton of those 358477 over 5.5 gr of unique - but all in my mod 28's and the Security Six - I don't think I want to try them in the Mod 60 (357 3in) I think I would have a hand full with those smaller grips!

[Larry Gibson]

Larry - I shot a ton of those 358477 over 5.5 gr of unique - but all in my mod 28's and the Security Six - I don't think I want to try them in the Mod 60 (357 3in) I think I would have a hand full with those smaller grips!

It's a +P load alright but does not exceed the SAAMI MAP for +P 38 loads. It pretty much duplicated the Win/Fed "FBI" +P loads. I shot lots of them in my issued M15 and in my 5" M15 (bought from department when we went to 4" M15s). I also shoot them in my M19 and Security Six. No problems with any of those revolvers.:drinks:

Larry Gibson

[jdgabbard]

I'm also of the opinion the 38/44 data and loads are hotter than todays +p. Some of yesteryears 38 data was 38/44 +p++++++++!!!!! Gotta watch some of the old book loads.

And Bret, that is my point. I'm open to the idea that we've "loaded down" the cartridge, so that the manufacturers and the guys who print the manuals don't have to worry about the lawsuits.

And I understand why. There are certainly older guns that shouldn't be loaded with upper end standard 38spl loads, let alone +p or 38/44 loads. Tho, I do hear, and many times over, that there were 38 loads that were hot as hell. Offered by manufacturers and shot in standard pressure guns.

Now don't go thinking that I'm saying it's ok to load things "hot." Because I'm not, safety is my first concern for every round I load. I don't know if it'll just be myself shooting my guns if you catch my drift. But I wonder if we haven't truly dressed down the cartridge.

[subsonic]

There is quite a bit of difference in strength in say, an old M&P k-frame, an airweight j-frame, and a model 10 Outdoorsman, and say a model 65.

Load to the gun and you'll be alright.

I have shot 6gr Unique in .38 cases behind a 358429 in my SP101 - .357. Why wouldn't I shoot the same load in an SP101 maked .38?

[Larry Gibson]

The "loading down" of many cartridges is not so much a fear of lawsuits. It is because the peizo transducer and strain guage methods of measuring pressures give a much better and more complete picture of the time/pressure curve than did the C.U.P. method of only measuring what was thought to be "peak pressure" in days of yore. Modern chronographs allowing the measurement of many more test shots also gives additional data. With the increase in data it was found that many of the loads thought safe and within SAAMI specs were not. That's why some of them are dumbed down. Some changes in powder manufacture have also result in different loads.

Larry Gibson

[jdgabbard]

Larry, so what you're saying is that its not really an issue of how high the pressure goes, but rather how long it stays at any particular level. And that is what is truly the limiting figure. Correct?

[zxcvbob]

The area under the pressure curve is what correlates to the bullet's muzzle energy -- and also the amount of force applied to the frame (the amount of friction between the bullet and the bore also figure into the stretch on the frame.)

The peak pressure correlates to when the *chamber* fails spectacularly.

Did that answer anything, or just make it more confusing? :veryconfu

[jdgabbard]

Bob, it only made things more confusing.

[Bret4207]

Larry, so what you're saying is that its not really an issue of how high the pressure goes, but rather how long it stays at any particular level. And that is what is truly the limiting figure. Correct?

Yes, I believe that's what he's saying.

FWIW- I shot a lot of what are considered 38/44 loads in a Colt Cobra years back and still use the same load in my M19 today. We didn't have the data then we have now. I probably wouldn't do it today. But the answer to your original question is yes, you can turn the 38 into a 357. Using the right gun for it is always a smart thing. N and L frames, Rugers, etc. rather than J frames and Police Positives.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, so what you're saying is that its not really an issue of how high the pressure goes, but rather how long it stays at any particular level. And that is what is truly the limiting figure. Correct?

Yes, that is what I'm basically saying. In a .357 for example; A CUP psi measurement of 35,000 psi will be the same whether the psi is reached with Bullseye or 2400. However, the quicker rise to that 35,000 psi using Bullseye will "hammer" the chamber walls more than the slower rise of 2400. Something like a fast punch vs a slow punch.

I've been doing a lot of testing and load development of low end cowboy action loads with Vihta Vuori Tin Star powder in the .32 H&R, 38 SPL, 357 Mag, 44 SPL, 44 Mag, 45 ACP, 45 Colt and 45-70. I've put over 1500 test rounds down range in the last 3 months and have another 400 loaded to finish the testing. Along with the load develpment I've been pressure testing a lot of factory equivelent loads including some match 38 SPLs reference and comparison. You be surprised at how raggedy, spikey and just plain scary some of the pressure curves are! They are not what we think of with a smoothly curving line up and then tapering down by any stretch. It is amazing how inconsistent most fast burning powders burn at low psi. More amazing is the accuracy we get with such loads.

Larry Gibson

[9.3X62AL]

My "need" for +P 38 Specials expired once my agency approved use of the 357 Magnum (c. 1991), and I stopped loading such things for the most part. I had a notion to try it again last year, but got talked out of it--and just as well.

Pressure standards for the magnum revolver calibers were lowered in the late 1980s/early 1990s, possibly due to the upgrades in pressure reading technology. These relaxations certainly paved the way for J-frame 357 Magnums.

[Larry Gibson]

"Pressure standards for the magnum revolver calibers were lowered in the late 1980s/early 1990s, possibly due to the upgrades in pressure reading technology. These relaxations certainly paved the way for J-frame 357 Magnums."

The reason given at the time was because more departments were using 357 Mag ammo instead of .38 WCs for practice and qualification and the M19 S&Ws (most popular 357 revolver in police use at the time) weren't holding up. Hence we got factory .357 Magnum ammo with MAPs at 30,000 psi or less instead of close to the SAAMI MAP of 35,000 psi. We also got the heavier and stouter L frame to replace the K frame.

Larry Gibson

[rintinglen]

I would also note that at one time, the 357 magnum was loaded to 40,000 CUP factory.

I shot some old Winchester Lubaloy Super X rounds that were "robust" with severely flattened primers and enough lead in the bore to hide the rifling. My old M-27 stood up to it just fine--I shudder to think what it would do to a M-60 357, not to mention my wrists and elbows.

[MGySgt]

I haven't fired a factory 357 since the middle 70's. I do remember those WW Lubaloys. I had a Ruber Blackhawk with a 6.5 in barrel - It was called shoot 10 and clean the barrel - that was before I knew how to easily clean the lead out!

What a PITA!

Drew

[jdgabbard]

Those .357 loads do sound pretty darn stout. Although the leading end of it sounds more like wrong boolit/lube for the job, not a problem with the pressure.

[MGySgt]

Those old lube alloys were swaged lead! Nothing would keep them from leading except not shooting them. :)

[Larry Gibson]

I would also note that at one time, the 357 magnum was loaded to 40,000 CUP factory.

I shot some old Winchester Lubaloy Super X rounds that were "robust" with severely flattened primers and enough lead in the bore to hide the rifling. My old M-27 stood up to it just fine--I shudder to think what it would do to a M-60 357, not to mention my wrists and elbows.

Yup, them were stout but they sure did lead the barrel as mentioned;-)

Larry Gibson

[35remington]

Depending upon which 158 we are talking about, Plus P is often now considered to occur, according to some sources, at 5.0 grains of Unique.

I've attained velocities equivalent or a bit higher than Plus P Winchester 158 SWC-HP's using such a charge in my four inch Model 10. Five grains, that is, with the Lee TL 158 SWC. Over 950 fps in a four inch, and 850 or so in a two inch.

FWIW, peruse the Speer #8, where velocities of up to 1250 fps were listed for 158's in a 38 Special.....and these were not listed as 38-44 loads, by the way, but rather simply presented as suitable for the .38 Special. Some of their starting loads are as heavy as Plus P listings now.

Using Unique, and their particular 158, up to 6.0 was used in that manual. These and the higher velocity loads using other powders were the type of loads that have and had the reputation of shooting snubbies "loose."

I'm really unsure myself of how "Plus P" some of the loadings are for the 38. By Larry's measurement my "Plus P" load of 5.0 Unique/158 Lee might be unspectacular, pressurewise. Bullet seating is not especially deep.

Yet the +P velocities are there. Making one suspect that yes, things have been watered down some, but that's usually expected when a 110+ year old cartridge has been chambered in every cheap, worn, loose, old, aluminum, soft steel, zinc framed and abused revolvers out there in millions of examples.

[Treeman]

Lots of good info from Mister Gibson. Various sources list 38/44 pressures just as "under 30,000 CUP". Unfortunately we don't have a lot of info on the original factory loads. The 1100 fps of pre +P marked ".38 Special High Velocity" is obtainable at around 23k CUP

[9.3X62AL]

Mr. Gibson OFTEN has good info, and I rely on his views as guidance in this hobby field. I remember those days of the 19s and 66s getting accellerated wear from the full-bore 357s, and how happy I was to get my first L-frame in 1981 (586 x 6").

Sorry to have led the OP's thread astray. I would be very reluctant to run 38/44 loads in ANY 38 Special other than the N-frame S&W Outdoorsman or a Colt New Service or SAA in 38 Special. I'm sure the pressures in the 38/44 loads approach 357 Magnum current SAAMI specs--e.g., my service loads in the 4" Model 686 (W-W 357 158 grain JHP) reach 1225 FPS or so. For my own uses, I have 38 Specials of light to moderate strength--and 357s that run from light to hellacious strength (Ruger Bisley Blackhawk). The BisHawk gets the 1935-intensity 357 loads, the pre-27 and the 686 get current SAAMI-spec loads, and the 2.5" M-19 gets a few SAAMI loads and mostly runs mid-range these days (950-1050 FPS). My carry loads clock 1125-1150 FPS in the short tube, as do that load's practice duplicator--Lyman #358156 atop 13.5 grains of 2400 (new stuff) and CCI 500 primers in W-W cases.

[Bret4207]

Depending upon which 158 we are talking about, Plus P is often now considered to occur, according to some sources, at 5.0 grains of Unique.

I've attained velocities equivalent or a bit higher than Plus P Winchester 158 SWC-HP's using such a charge in my four inch Model 10. Five grains, that is, with the Lee TL 158 SWC. Over 950 fps in a four inch, and 850 or so in a two inch.

FWIW, peruse the Speer #8, where velocities of up to 1250 fps were listed for 158's in a 38 Special.....and these were not listed as 38-44 loads, by the way, but rather simply presented as suitable for the .38 Special. Some of their starting loads are as heavy as Plus P listings now.

Using Unique, and their particular 158, up to 6.0 was used in that manual. These and the higher velocity loads using other powders were the type of loads that have and had the reputation of shooting snubbies "loose."

I'm really unsure myself of how "Plus P" some of the loadings are for the 38. By Larry's measurement my "Plus P" load of 5.0 Unique/158 Lee might be unspectacular, pressurewise. Bullet seating is not especially deep.

Yet the +P velocities are there. Making one suspect that yes, things have been watered down some, but that's usually expected when a 110+ year old cartridge has been chambered in every cheap, worn, loose, old, aluminum, soft steel, zinc framed and abused revolvers out there in millions of examples.

Speer #8 is sort of like the "Banned from the Bible" books you see on the history channel- approach it with caution!!! I, of course, had to get a copy. They do have some HOT loads. But, it's good reference material.

BTW- using the 358477 ahead of 5.0 unique in my Bodyguard (1 7/8" IIRC) I get just about 800-825. Feels kinda mild to the hand actually.

[Larry Gibson]

35remington

"By Larry's measurement my "Plus P" load of 5.0 Unique/158 Lee might be unspectacular, pressurewise."

That load is right at the same psi as Winchester, Remington and Federal 158 RN "standard" 38 SPL loads. An excellent load that I use myself BTW.

Larry Gibson

[35remington]

Larry, do your results as to velocity with that load approximate mine?

If it was and is indeed standard pressure, that would be good news. I really desire nothing more, velocitywise, from the 38.

Bret, the Auto Rim gets the turbo treatment too as you've no doubt seen this yourself. I don't go quite as high as they did using 2400 but I have used 13.0 grains with various 452423's. And a few 255's that aren't deeply seated. The Unique loads with the 200 grain bullet are really up there.

[Bret4207]

Yupper! I got it for reference as much as anything else. Interesting to see what was good info at one time become "dangerous" over time.