Powder choice help

[rdlange]

Per 'Paper Jacket" and here, use a full case of powder for best accuracy. Looking for a powder for 45-70 and .454 Casull PP loads. Would like to use a thin card wad under the bullet to protect the base, but concerned about card wad causing chamber ring or inconsistencies.

Looking for a full case powder so the card wad is against the bullet base on top of the powder. Want to save my shoulder grief. This is supposed to be fun. I have 2400, 4198 and Varget from other reloading.

Have loaded 45-70 with dacron fluff over smaller loads of 4198.

Will be using 400gr lead in 45-70. And starting with 250gr in .454 Casull then heavier when I get them.


MAY NOT HAVE BEEN CLEAR ABOVE. DEFINITELY WILL BE USING PAPER JACKET.

Advise requested on powder to use for these calibers. Other guidance appreciated.

Thanks.

[lister]

I load my 1884 trapdoor with two loads now, 26gr 2400, does about 1300fps, thumps like 70grns of black does though, and trail boss. I don't use a filler probably should but they do push pressures and velocities up.
For a powder puff load try trail boss, a full case is only around14 grains, I started using it several weeks ago in my 3030, and was so impressed that Ive tried it in everything now. Not my choice for hunting but makes a great low velocity cartridge with little recoil or noise.

[pdawg_shooter]

I load my Marlin with 54gr of AA2495 under a 451114.

[Nobade]

Well, a case full of Varget will work but won't be too kind to your shoulder. 4198 might not blow up but it'll be a super high pressure load. 2400 will most certainly blow up your rifle with a full case. If you want a gentler load with a full case try 4350 - it'll launch a 400gr. at 1400-1500 fps with a compressed charge with low pressure.

You can also do what I do and use 3031 or something similar (works with 4198 too, just use less) and take up the rest of the space with Cream 'O' Wheat if you want a full case and toned down a bit. Just make sure it's compressed so it won't mix.

[myfriendis410]

In the lighter boolits you might even go slower, like trying H4831 or RL19. There is no data on these to my knowledge, but I played with both in a 500 grain load and was at max capacity and around 1,200 fps. Very soft load. Lots of unburned powder too. Really not ideal for my application so went back to faster stuff. I like IMR 4895 and Benchmark for full power loads, and IMR 4198 for mild stuff. I just loaded up some 517 gr. PP using three different papers and two powders. If I have time I'll try 'em out today.

[geargnasher]

Per 'Paper Jacket" and here, use a full case of powder for best accuracy. Looking for a powder for 45-70 and .454 Casull PP loads. Would like to use a thin card wad under the bullet to protect the base, but concerned about card wad causing chamber ring or inconsistencies.

Looking for a full case powder so the card wad is against the bullet base on top of the powder. Want to save my shoulder grief. This is supposed to be fun. I have 2400, 4198 and Varget from other reloading.

Have loaded 45-70 with dacron fluff over smaller loads of 4198.

Will be using 400gr lead in 45-70. And starting with 250gr in .454 Casull then heavier when I get them.


MAY NOT HAVE BEEN CLEAR ABOVE. DEFINITELY WILL BE USING PAPER JACKET.

Advise requested on powder to use for these calibers. Other guidance appreciated.

Thanks.

First, understand that you won't "ring" your chamber if you leave no air space between the card wad and boolit base. Chamber ringing is the result of tamping any sort of wad down against the powder with loads that leave air space between the powder and boolit base (less than 100% density).

Second, if you paper-patch properly and aren't pushing your loads to extremely high pressure, there is no need for a base wad. The patch will protect the base just fine.

If follow Nobade's suggestion of using a granular filler of some sort and a light charge of low-density powder together to make a compressed propellant column, your results will probably be even better than using a 100% density load of powder and a card wad under the boolit base. A column of granular filler will protect, seal, and cushion the boolit base from the powder gases and isolates the delicate base from the gas jetting around it at muzzle exit, both factors are remarkable group-shrinkers.

Gear

[303Guy]

... and isolates the delicate base from the gas jetting around it at muzzle exit, ...I've wondered about that then forgot it. Good point.

I've tried Grits and liked it but I found it formed a cup in the boolit base and some stayed stuck there. I've no idea if that's bad or not but a card wad seemed to solve that one.

Would someone be so king as to post a photo of some 'Cream Of Wheat' please? I just can't find any to examine and have no idea of the nature of the stuff.

[303Guy]

On chamber ringing, I suspect it is not the air trapped nor the card or wad striking the boolit base but rather the 'wad of powder' striking the boolit base together with whatever may have been holding the powder back. Dacron and other fluffy fillers might be allowing the powder column to 'burst open' on ignition, thus preventing ringing.

[Nobade]

I've wondered about that then forgot it. Good point.

I've tried Grits and liked it but I found it formed a cup in the boolit base and some stayed stuck there. I've no idea if that's bad or not but a card wad seemed to solve that one.

Would someone be so king as to post a photo of some 'Cream Of Wheat' please? I just can't find any to examine and have no idea of the nature of the stuff.

If no one beats me to it I will do so. Another option that I have been using recently is BPI shot buffer. I had forgotten about it until it was brought up here on the forum, and I remembered I had a jar of it. It certain ly has some advantages that COW doesn't, that mainly being it doesn't absorb moisture. Here in the desert that's not an issue, but in humid environments it certainly would be. I hadn't been using the BPI filler because of the cost, but trying it in Ackley cases convinced me of its worth. The COW will cake up against the 40 degree shoulder and is very difficult to remove from the case. The BPI filler won't do that, so I assume whatever it is lubricated with keeps that from happening.

One thing I have wondered about is has anyone ever tried plain old granulated polyethylene for filler? It seems to me if it worked that should be available much cheaper than $8 for 500cc like the BPI buffer is.

[Jim]

If you're interested in going the way of milsurp powders, there are a few that can be used at 100(+) case density in the .45-70. I load IMR 7383 and WC860 to + densities under 500 grain boolits in the caliber.

As for the card wad, as I understand it, if the card is snugly against the base of the boolit, there's no problem with ringing. The ringing occurs if the card wad has room to slam forward against the boolit base when the light comes on.

[Old Coot]

I've wondered about that then forgot it. Good point.

I've tried Grits and liked it but I found it formed a cup in the boolit base and some stayed stuck there. I've no idea if that's bad or not but a card wad seemed to solve that one.

Would someone be so king as to post a photo of some 'Cream Of Wheat' please? I just can't find any to examine and have no idea of the nature of the stuff.

303 Guy;
I can't post a photo of COW, but you can get the same thing sold as Semolina.
Brodie

[geargnasher]

The chamber ring is caused not by the physical contact of the powder/wad column with the boolit base, but by the sudden increase in pressure when the moving, burning powder column suddenly slams to a halt. Suddenly confining a rapidly expanding chemical reaction will spike pressure, and the increased pressure spikes the burn rate, so it's a double-whammy that skyrockets chamber pressure before the static inertia of the boolit is overcome and it begins to move. Once the boolit finally moves, it increases the chamber volume and gives the pressure somewhere to go. That's why that system only rings the chamber rather than blowing it to bits. At the peak of the pressure spike, the pressure wave deflects off of the boolit base like a soft lead boolit splattering on a steel plate, and the radial pressure is concentrated on the chamber in the area just behind the boolit base, stretching the brass and chamber metal and leaving the distinctive ring.

The way to prevent this is to avoid circumstances where powder is confined behind the boolit with some airspace in between. Dacron works very well to "locate" the powder back against the primer without causing chamber rings because it's very "open" and allows pressure rises to penetrate through to the boolit base and keep the pressure within the chamber more even throughout than if a card wad (which would seal the pressure wave like a piston) were used. It's important not to use too much Dacron, somewhere around 3/4 grain per CC volume is plenty.

Just imagine swinging two hammers together so their faces collide, that's the sort of thing that happens when a card wad is tamped down on a low-density powder charge and fired behind a heavy boolit.

Gear

[303Guy]

Suddenly confining a rapidly expanding chemical reaction will spike pressure, ...Aah! The lights just came one! Of course - it's kinda like a shaped charge.

I became away of this effect when using shotgun powder in my Brit that has rust craters in the neck of the chamber. The cases would lock into those craters yet primer flattening was minimal. I've recently used full case loads (194gr PPCB) producing 2000fps in a 14.6" barrel without the cases locking into those craters and primer flattening, while for less than a j-word load, is still quite a bit more.