ranch dog performance

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive got a little 16 inch tc carbine in 4570. My dad kind of layed claim to it. He shot a doe and an 8 pointer with it this year. Both at between 40 and 50 yards. I had the ranch dog 350 grain bullet cast out of ww +2 percent tin and loaded with 16 grains of 2400. He couldnt take any more recoil then that load gave. thing that surprised me is that one deer shot on the shoulder and one right behind the shoulder and neither bullet exited the deer. I would have thought that load would have gone through a deer like hot butter. Only thing i can figure is the 350 has a relitively pour sd and just doesnt penetrate well. Anyone else shot more then one thing with this bullet and how did it penetrate for you. By the way both deer were gutted by him so i didnt get a recovered bullet to look at.

[x101airborne]

I am shooting the 44 mag ranch dog 310 out of a full length marin rifle. I have never recovered a boolit from any hog or deer no matter shot angle. It could actually be a good thing that the boolits are so slow they dont exit. MAYBE, just my opinion or guess, but a wide meplat boolit needs to go slow to have an effective energy transfer to tissue. Guessing you are getting around 1300 fps out of that load (its just a guess), with that wide a nose, maybe it is trasferring energy more than forcing penetration.

It does seem odd though, that the boolit did not exit. Reason would say that just the mass alone would have shoved it on through. Interested to hear others opinions.

[wiljen]

Probably more to do with load than bullet Lloyd. A quick run of some #s in QL shows a 16gr charge giving about 975 fps out of a 16" barrel. With that little starting velocity, I'm not sure any other bullet would exit the offside either. Really, if thought of as a 45 LC load in an over size case, the performance is about on par with expectations.

[felix]

Perhaps the difference in meaning of the terms aDsorb and aBsorb will help. Bring in the concepts of radiation and chemistry as individuals to kill cancer. It's all about what projectile with what speed into what target. ... felix

[Tom Myers]

Lloyd,

I ran the paramaters of the (16gr. Alliant 2400, 350 gr, 16" bbl) load through Quick Load and, unless I made some wrong entries, the muzzle velocity of that load out of a 16" barrel would have been right around 981 fps.


It appears that, even a reduced velocity, the Ranch Dog designs get the job done.

[runfiverun]

i'd say you have the long range limits of your load figured out now.
but a 350 at 975 sounds like a heck of a handgun hunting round to me.
bet it's pretty quiet too.

[1Shirt]

Gotta go with Wiljen's assessment. I wouldn't expect exit from that vol and that blt weight. However, the bottom line is that they obviously killed well and that is what counts. Think with much more of a load it would be a real kicker.
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[Larry Gibson]

Good example of the many times difference between what we think a load is doing and what will happen vs what the load is reallydoing and what happens.

Larry Gibson

[GLynn41]

that load is not far from a 50 cal MZL -- with a 355gr -- even expanding I never caught a bullet -- just one of those things that makes one go hmmmmm- I guess -- still the bullet and deer did their part --one killed and one died

[jdgabbard]

I don't own one in 44/45 but I will tell you I have one in .357, and it's one hellava boolit!!! I haven't recovered one fired from my Smith mod 65, but I'll tell you that from looking at the wound channels in the hogs and such that I've shot, it is probably about .500 or larger after it exits one.

And I too load it with 2400....

[btroj]

I shot a deer with the 350 RD bullet at about 1700 fps. Deer was maybe 15 yards away. Went clean thru and was heard by my father whistling into the trees after going thru the deer.
I shoot a 420 gr bullet with 24 gr of 2400 in a 22 inch 45-70 and get around 1300 fps. I can't imagine you are over 1000 with that load.

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive shot deer with 250 grain cast swcs out of 45 colts and have gotten end to end penetration at a 1000 fps. I would think this 350 grain bullet would wistle through any deer sideways. I would have bet it would have went through two side by side. Ive also shot many deer and pigs with simular load levels out of 44 specials, mags and 45colts and its rare that they dont give complete penetration. Were talking 100 lb does here not elk. My only thought was possibly that bullet has a poor sectional density.

[Harter66]

Alloy? If their soft they could have gotten really big really easy then rolled up again. I saw boolits like that on a muzzle loader page sometime back w/RBs .

I've heard of factory loads w/a 350 HP being picked up not far from where the deer was hit w/the guide gun class of rifles.

[Ranch Dog]

The SD of the bullet is .237. I ran your load through QuickLoad and came up with the same numbers as the others so at 50-yards the bullet will be moving at about 950 FPS and deliver 700 FPE. I've killed a bunch of big game animals with it and never have recovered a bullet but the slowest I push it is in the 1700 to 1800 range. I shot a buck with it last week at 80-yards, a complete shoot through but again at a higher velocity.

[wiljen]

Not to insult at all as I respect you and know you know your stuff Lloyd, but have you chrono'd that load? I know QL can sometimes over-estimate by 100+ fps when you have a large chamber, a bit larger bore etc. If that load is only churning up 750-800fps that would explain a lot.

[Ranch Dog]

It would be interesting to know what the actual velocity is.

I've shot a bunch of big game with my various bullets over the last three years but have only recovered two bullets, both right under the hide on the far side of the shot. One a broadside shot on a nilgai and the other a mule deer running away from me 165 yards out. Shot it at the base/side of the tail and it traveled up the spine , through the chest, and was resting under the hid. Both where heavy 444 loads.

I was surprised my 41 Mag bullet blew through one of the bucks I shot this year. Quartering to me through the shoulder and exiting right behind the far shoulder. Same with the youngster hunting with my 1894C (357 Mag). He killed two bucks, both at 70 to 80 yards, and the bullets went out. Heck, the first critter I shot with the TLC359-175-RF out of the "C" was a large feral hog sow at 70-yards. I would not have thought it would exit but it did.

If is was only one deer I would say, oh well see what it does again, but that has been answered. Might want to bump the velocity a bit once you test it. Don't tell your dad that you've increased the charge and I suspect he wouldn't even notice it.

[jdgabbard]

It would be interesting to know what the actual velocity is.

I've shot a bunch of big game with my various bullets over the last three years but have only recovered two bullets, both right under the hide on the far side of the shot. One a broadside shot on a nilgai and the other a mule deer running away from me 165 yards out. Shot it at the base/side of the tail and it traveled up the spine , through the chest, and was resting under the hid. Both where heavy 444 loads.

I was surprised my 41 Mag bullet blew through one of the bucks I shot this year. Quartering to me through the shoulder and exiting right behind the far shoulder. Same with the youngster hunting with my 1894C (357 Mag). He killed two bucks, both at 70 to 80 yards, and the bullets went out. Heck, the first critter I shot with the TLC359-175-RF out of the "C" was a large feral hog sow at 70-yards. I would not have thought it would exit but it did.

If is was only one deer I would say, oh well see what it does again, but that has been answered. Might want to bump the velocity a bit once you test it. Don't tell your dad that you've increased the charge and I suspect he wouldn't even notice it.

RD, I didnt know you made a 175g for the 357.... I bet its a the cats meow, your 190g sure is!

[Ranch Dog]

RD, I didnt know you made a 175g for the 357.... I bet its a the cats meow, your 190g sure is!

Dude, you need to check in once in a while!

TLC359-175-RF (http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_5_56&products_id=124)

The load the little fellow used on the buck on that page was 15.7-grains of Lil' Gun giving the bullet 1750 FPS. I was 500 yards down range when he shot and the first thing I heard was the bullet slapping that deer.

[Lloyd Smale]

bullet was cast out of straight ww. No i didnt chronograph it. As a matter of fact i strarted much hotter but my dad is the one that uses it and its a tc contendor rifle with a 16 inch barrel and is very light and he has a bad shoulder so the combo of all that demanded i back the load down to its present level. Maybe it was just a couple freek insidences but even at 800 fps id expect a flat nosed cast 45 cal bullet to blow right through a deer. to give the bullet credit it did do alot of internal damage and one deer didnt make more then 50 yards after being hit and the other was more like 50 feet. I guess if it happens again I may consider just going to a 400 grain bullet at about the same level.
The SD of the bullet is .237. I ran your load through QuickLoad and came up with the same numbers as the others so at 50-yards the bullet will be moving at about 950 FPS and deliver 700 FPE. I've killed a bunch of big game animals with it and never have recovered a bullet but the slowest I push it is in the 1700 to 1800 range. I shot a buck with it last week at 80-yards, a complete shoot through but again at a higher velocity.

[Ranch Dog]

I a few months I will have a TLC460-300-RF out as well. Same bullet nose to fit the 1895 throat, just a shorter body inside the case.

[pmer]

Lloyd, maybe there is a way to try some penetration tests with that load and compare it to your 1000 fps 45 colt load. It would interesting to know the BHN too.

I had a 16" Contender 45-70 and my shoulder hurts just thinking about it. Easy to carry though.

[Lloyd Smale]

ill probably do that next summer

[DLCTEX]

I a few months I will have a TLC460-300-RF out as well. Same bullet nose to fit the 1895 throat, just a shorter body inside the case.

Uh oh. I'm going to have to start ratholing my "beer money".

[Onty]

bullet was cast out of straight ww. No i didnt chronograph it. As a matter of fact i strarted much hotter but my dad is the one that uses it and its a tc contendor rifle with a 16 inch barrel and is very light and he has a bad shoulder so the combo of all that demanded i back the load down to its present level...

Somebody posted story about TC chambered for 357 Super Mag. I did not remember all details, but seems to me that gentleman used loads with 180-200 grain boolits, apparently, with very good results. Using Nosler Partition or Barnes solid copper could be also way to go. Another option could be one of those wildcats 357/44. Considering moderate recoil, even from a light rifle, this might be something for your dad.

[aussie rich]

A 300 grain .460 from Ranch Dog!!!!!!

mmm I wonder what sort of velocities that could get too....

might start saving my beer money too!!!

[DLCTEX]

My son, Black rifle shooter, shot a buck last evening with the guide gun and the RD 460-420 at approx 2000 fps. The deer leaped into the air and ran with the herd of about 30 deer. He lost sight of which deer was the one due to the number and low light. He couldn't find it until this morning about 250 yds from where it was shot. A Bobcat had claimed it and ate a small amount from a hindquarter, then tried to bury it. The boolit had hit in the front of the shoulder, passed just under the spine, and exited mid rib distance back on the off side. Very little blood trail and little expansion probably due to not hitting a major bone in it's 30 inches of travel. These were cast of WW and will be tried with 50/50 next.

[44magLeo]

Perhaps your dad would like the gun with a different barrel. Maybe in a 357 Herret, 375 Winchester. Or something like that. Could still shoot boolits in 200 range with a bit more velocity and about the same recoil.
Leo

[44man]

Two fellas I want to meet face to face, have some beer and BBQ.
Ranch Dog and Felix! [smilie=s:
Combine a RD boolit and Felix lube and you will be at the peak.
But the Lee 310 for the .44 designed by some of the fellas here is also one of the best.
Between all of these and LBT, I don't think I could ever have shot so good. I want to have BBQ with all of them.
No, I take that back, I want every single one of us to come together.
Yeah, an old man with some tears that is sad about the distance between us.
But then I see velocity searchers that I know is wrong. Get away from the 2000 fps stuff. Knock that down to 1100 to at the most, 1400 fps. That is where the meplat works with harder boolits. Soften for expansion at the high velocities or go to a two part boolit.
Dlctex has experienced the problem. Faster is not good without expansion.

[Ranch Dog]

The boolit had hit in the front of the shoulder, passed just under the spine, and exited mid rib distance back on the off side. Very little blood trail and little expansion probably due to not hitting a major bone in it's 30 inches of travel. These were cast of WW and will be tried with 50/50 next.

Have you considered that the hit was too high. With a hole that high, there was no contact with any vital organs. With this hit and without clipping the top of the lungs, there will be not be a blood trail.

[Ranch Dog]

Two fellas I want to meet face to face, have some beer and BBQ.
Ranch Dog and Felix! [smilie=s:

My grill is always ready to light!

We killed 11 bucks this year here on the Ranch Dog spread with an assortment of my bullets in as many cartridges. All the deer were dead within 20 yards except the one my dad shot. It was the reverse angle of what DLCTEX's son shot, in at the last rib immediately below the spine and out high on the opposite shoulder. My dad and I where in a 15' tower blind, the buck was walking away at a steep angle, 80 to 85 yards out. I saw the shot hit and it was too high. The buck was out of sight and off into some very high grass with light mesquite. Like DLCTEX's experience, we can't leave anything overnight here and evening was coming quickly. I waited 15 minutes and told my dad to stay put. I walked out to where the deer was hit and there was nothing. I did sense that the deer would lay down quick from the way it departed. Not like a gut shot but just because it looked like it was looking for a place to get off its feet. I went about 50-yards in the general direction of travel very slowly, combat slow, mainly because I was in grass up to my belt that is full of rattlesnakes. I stopped, I don't really know why but just felt I was on top of the deer. After about 45 seconds of standing still as a mouse, that buck flew up about three arm reaches out, I let him get in a steady run instead of bounding, and shot him through the heart. He rolled up in a ball. My dad is 82, so it is what it is with eyesight etc., that is why I hunt with him. I told him I found the deer but couldn't tell if it was dead so I shot it. When I cleaned it, the first hit had traveled just under the spine from in to out. Nothing touched other skin and muscle. This buck could have been very easily lost considering the cover on my place and the predator situation. This was with the TLC311-165-RF in a 30-30 Win.

[excess650]

Lloyd,
If felt recoil is your father's problem, get a samller caliber barrel. Increasing boolit weight in the 45-70 will just make it worse. Go with a 357mag for efficiency. You'll have a good compromise between boolit weight, velocity, meplat size, lack of recoil, and high load density. The 357 mag is a mighty mouse from a carbine!

[Ranch Dog]

I don't know if you guys have ever messed with the "shot simulator", I use it to teach my young hunters where to hit a deer. Here is what I was trying to describe with my dad's hit.

[44man]

RD, I had a strange hit this season too. When something happened to the Bushnell RD on my .44 I hit the doe in the neck instead of where I was holding. I later found I could not hit paper at 50, the inner tube had stuck sideways.
She went right down, still alive and all she was doing was rolling her eyes. I cut her and found she still could move her legs and kicked in a circle.
I did not hit the spine or jugular but had a huge hole from the hard boolit at around 1316 fps.
She was in total shock and did not even react from my knife. Only when a loss of blood was great did she start kicking around.
I have to wonder if she could have got over the shock and ran?
Now I have shot a bunch of deer with the slower, heavy .45 Colt boolit and they flinch, maybe jump a hop, then walk, stop, walk some more and start to shake their head to stay awake. Panic sets in and they try to run but go down. Deer shot with the hard boolit from my 45-70 BFR sometimes show no reaction and stand there so I shoot again. I still have to track them a long way. One went way up a steep hill and a neighbor shot her for me and she now had 3 holes in her. My 2 were double lung hits.
Switching to a softer boolit or a jacketed in the faster 45-70 really puts them down fast.
Yet the .44 has always worked just fine, the .45 just takes a little longer for them to die. If I would speed the .45 a little it would be better but it is hard to get the accuracy if I do.
Then I have shot many deer with my Ruger Old Army with RB's and they go NOWHERE so if the .45 Colt had soft lead, it would work the same. I just can't shoot the soft stuff from my Vaquero.

[mroliver77]

Lloyd,
I shoot a 240 and a 325 in 45-70. A 1200-1300fps load with slower burning 3031 has a less sharp recoil than the same with 2400. I dont know how slow of a powder you could use but it might be worth a try.

Maybe ad a pound to the gun?

Does Dad sight in and or practice standing or benching? Big difference in felt recoil. I remember sighting in 12 gauge slugs off the bench was murder. A shot at game was unfelt!
J

[6pt-sika]

In the past I used the Lyman 330 grain HP Gould bullet with 31.5 grains of SR4759 and it smacked a large bodied 6 point DRT back in 2003 .

In 2008 I used the Ranch Dog 460-350GC with 34 grains of XMP5744 and shot the biggest racked buck of my 40 odd years of hunting . That deer went maybe 40 yards after the shot !

Both times I used plain old aircooled wheelweights !
I didn't think the recoil was terrible in either load . Shot the Gould bullet in a 1895CB and shot the RD 350 in a circa 1978 New Model 1895 with Micro Groove rifling .

The same year I killed the 8 pointer I aslo shot a spike using the Ranch Dog 460-425GC and 32 grains of XMP5744 again air cooled WW's . This was in an 1895G so certainly that recoil pad had alot to do with little felt recoil .

But for what it's worth these are what I consider light loads , I have no idea what their percieved recoil would be in a little Contender darbine . However I am quite certain they'd be a bit more then I felt in my Marlin rifles !

Incidently I have gone now to loads with H322 with both the RD 350 and 425 . I also now shoot them in a circa 1972 New Model 1895 and have an extra stock with a thick KickEez pad on the back !

[6pt-sika]

I am quite certain this new Ranch Dog 460-300GC with either XMP5744 or SR4759 should make a pretty mild recoilwise load in the 45-70 I have and would be willing to bet it isn't to terribly bad in a Contender Carbine either !

[DLCTEX]

I forgot to post the autopsy results of the deer shot by my son (post#26 above). The boolit (RD 460-420) clipped the top out of both lungs, took out 2 1/2 inches of aorta, cut the bottom off a vertebra, made a wound channel about 2" in dia., took out a rib and left a 3/4 in hole in the hide on exit. Don't know how he could have run that far, but I think the boolit did it's job. I'd have thought the shock to the spine alone would have dropped him right there.

[Ranch Dog]

Makes you wonder how they keep going. Just curious, was this a Panhandle mule deer or whitetail?

[DLCTEX]

It was a 146# Whitetail. Maybe the drought made him tough. Our deer in the close vicinity made do with irrigated coton, eating new growth and all the blooms. Fawn crop here was estimated at 45%. In the areas away from irrigated crops the fawn crop was 4%. Definately hurt antler and body size. The MLD program has cut the doe population so we now have an estimated 2/1 doe/buck ratio.

[nanuk]

...Maybe the drought made him tough....


You should try hunting some of these big S'katch'wun whitetails!

Man, they are so tough, you have to cut a slit in 'em for the bullet to enter, or it just bounces right off!

Even then, they will just stand there looking at you with that taunting look in their eyes, kinda saying "Hey, THAT ALL you got? Dinnint hurt much!"

Sometimes I think they are inbred with Northern Pike!

[Ranch Dog]

It was a 146# Whitetail. Maybe the drought made him tough. Our deer in the close vicinity made do with irrigated coton, eating new growth and all the blooms. Fawn crop here was estimated at 45%. In the areas away from irrigated crops the fawn crop was 4%. Definately hurt antler and body size. The MLD program has cut the doe population so we now have an estimated 2/1 doe/buck ratio.

Thanks for the report DLC, my slice of Texas has been really hurting as. I'm a 1D1/MLD property as well. I have some irrigated food plots and no cattle for 7-years now so the deer aren't hurting on my place as they are on the neighboring places. I've also been conducting prescribed burns and that has kept quite a bit of native forage available. This is the time of year I've really got to spend a lot of time on the tractor just manipulating the native browse to take advantage of the recent rains.

[Ranch Dog]

You should try hunting some of these big S'katch'wun whitetails!

Man, they are so tough, you have to cut a slit in 'em for the bullet to enter, or it just bounces right off!

Even then, they will just stand there looking at you with that taunting look in their eyes, kinda saying "Hey, THAT ALL you got? Dinnint hurt much!"

Sometimes I think they are inbred with Northern Pike!

You could send some of those thick hide whitetails down here for a South Texas summer. They would loose a few pounds in the 45 days continuous days of 100º heat we typically have. That would make for a good attitude adjustment!

[44man]

Lloyd,
I shoot a 240 and a 325 in 45-70. A 1200-1300fps load with slower burning 3031 has a less sharp recoil than the same with 2400. I dont know how slow of a powder you could use but it might be worth a try.

Maybe ad a pound to the gun?

Does Dad sight in and or practice standing or benching? Big difference in felt recoil. I remember sighting in 12 gauge slugs off the bench was murder. A shot at game was unfelt!
J
I agree with 3031 from a rifle, very mild recoil and excellent accuracy. Long ago a friend brought over an original 45-70 and 405 gr boolits the gunsmith loaded for him with 4198. The stupid gun kicked the snot out of my cheek.
I loaded 500 gr boolits with 3031 and it took courage to try with a sore cheek. NO PAIN and I hit center with little groups.
I tried the powder in my 10" revolver but it had very low velocity and did not burn right but the groups were still very nice at 50 yards.