Accuracy -Marlin v Winchester

[Chill Wills]

OK, I am somewhat surprised at this Winchester versus Marlin competition! But, as long as it is friendly it is a great way to get the information flowing. So, for years My Winchesters have been giving me about 3moa accuracy more or less and the one and only Marlin I had (15-20 years ago) was sooooo bad, even after returning it and it still not being fixed, … I sold it.

Here is the challenge. Post your everyday average 7 shot group. (or 2 five shot groups[smilie=b:) 100yds and we will see what you Lever Rifle BR masters can do. Cast only of course! Gentlemen’s Honor and Gentlemen’s banter only.

I was out the other day checking to see what I could expect from an old Lyman 457-124 and 58gr FFFg Swiss powder. The one target shot with this load is posted here. It is 2-3/4” That is about normal for black or smokeless loads for this Winchester 1886 45-70 Govt. Rifle

[stubshaft]

I love my Winnies especially since my very first hunting rifle was a 30/30 Mdl 64. I have shot hundreds of piggies, goats and feral sheep with my old mdl 94 in the same caliber. But for all out accuracy my 1895 Marlins beat them hands down, even my 1894C will give my 64 a run for the money. So much so that I only reach for the Winnies 1 out of 10 times nowadays and out of my Marlins my blued GG gets the nod more times than not.

[Chill Wills]

subshaft, Would you show us or at least tell us about the groups your great shooting Marlin? size man, Size.....[smilie=s:

[Char-Gar]

Chill Wills.. Over many years of shooting Marlin and Winchester leverguns I have found that CONSISTENT ON DEMAND 2 moa groups are about the best I can do with the Marlin. Winchesters will do about a 1/2 moa less.

Please bear in mind, I have a stack of bragging one hole targets like the next fellow, but I am talking about average, consistent, on demand accuracy of 5 shoot groups.

[stubshaft]

These were shot with my 1895SS w/MG rifling using the 405 RCBS and LBT Blue lube sized to .460" in a die that Buckshot made for me. All groups were 5 shots at 100 yds with a 3X Weaver that I used only for load development (I don't like scopes on my lever guns for hunting).

[btroj]

I don't think a compairison of a few rifles can give a true picture of which is more or less accurate on average.
Either one is capable of doing what they were designed for- killing deer at reasonable ranges.

[PacMan]

I wish i had a scope on my 1894 now just to see. I shot this five shot 37 yard group with a scope for load work then removed it and mounted my XS sights. The 37 yard distance is because a big oak fell across the make shift range and i have yet to get it completely cut up.

With the XS sights i can wear out a quart oil bottle at 200 yards if i do my part but i also have a Rossi in 454 that will do the same using 335gr LBT LFN bullets.

[Chill Wills]

Stubshaft, OK, Hats off to you! That is very good accuracy!
8-)
You must get some looks of envy from the concrete commandos with the 3,000 powder scope and Tactical rifle.

[Chill Wills]

dwight hardy, If that holds together to 100y or more I would say it might be 2 moa or less!

[Larry Gibson]

Shot with the M94AE pictured in above post. 100 yards, 7 shots, velocity is 2220 fps. Bullet alloy is WW+2% tin/lead at 50/50. This is the soft cast bullets where I recommend cleaning the barrel after 5 -7 rounds to maintain accuracy. The 1st five shots are in 1.25" with shots 6 & 7 opening the group to 1.78". Close enough for deer to 200 yards:lovebooli

Larry Gibson

[Chill Wills]

I don't think a compairison of a few rifles can give a true picture of which is more or less accurate on average.
Either one is capable of doing what they were designed for- killing deer at reasonable ranges.

BTROJ Really, I did not intend to prove one brand over the other. Nothing of the kind. We are just going to have some fun and maybe we (me) will learn something.
I'll bet even a crusty old goat like me who has been doing this cast bullet thing a good while will learn a few things from some new guy that can put them all in one hole.
The trouble with doing something so long is I forget to think about new ways.... so that is why I like to draw on other peoples experiences as well.

I hope I don’t sound too arrogant. Just hoping to have fun with this.

All the best.

[btroj]

A friendly competition I can agree with. I jut don't want this to turn into a Ford/Chevy argument.

I don't have a Winchester in my home so I can't speak to them. My Marlin 45-70 will shoot 1.5 to 2 inch groups for 5 shots at 100 often enough that I get frustrated by a 2.5 inch group from it.

I have never scoped my 32-20 or 30-30 to really see what they can do. 32-20 is an accurate rifle, I just don't think it would be very good in much wind.

I think we can all agree that lever actions are much more capable than many give them credit for.

[Canuck Bob]

There is quite a difference between some chamber throats in typical Marlin and Winchesters, I have studied 30-30, and 32 Special. A visit to the SAAMI site will show the Winchester style chamber/throat diagram that is in my 32-20 and 32 Special Winchesters.

Chambers that are at least .040 longer than cases with sharp 15 degree curb like leade. My factory 32 Special factory loads have a substantial jump into that abrupt leade with iffy initial bullet alignment.

Ranch Dog Outdoors, link above in header, shows the similar rifles as having different throated chambers. His 32 Special drawing shows an actual ball throat with a properly sized bullet filling a real throat and engaging a 3 degree leade.

30-30 drawing is similar with the Sammi chamber. Reports indicate that some Marlins are ball throated in 30-30. His 444 drawings reveal a couple different throats in Marlins, What do Marlin barrel sluggers say? I often wonder if the great results for Ranch Dog casts come from thier design to suit RD bullets.

I am now convinced that some of the reported accuracy limits for both these rifle comes from these wanky throats and the barrel band restrictions causing problems/

On his GB forum Veral Smith states he thinks MG barrels are excellent for cast when sized correctly. He claims the many more rifling edges and small land height don't distort bullets as much. I do not present this as fact but just info with some pertinence to this thread

[Lloyd Smale]

In pistol calibers ive allways had better luck with winchesters. Rilfes are about a toss up if your comparing micro groved guns to winchesters. the cut rifle marlins tend to be a little bit better especialy the old ones. Ive got an old 336adl in 3030 that will shoot moa and ive had another in 3030 and one in 35 rem that would also.

[Reload3006]

Ford Chevy Dodge Chrysler ... take your pick. they are all fine tools and will do their job if you do yours.

[Chill Wills]

In pistol calibers ive allways had better luck with winchesters. Ive got an old 336adl in 3030 that will shoot moa and ive had another in 3030 and one in 35 rem that would also.

Sure, everyone has a moa rifle/load. I hear that all the time!:kidding:
Got pictures?:lol:

[HPT]

10 shots in 2.5" @ 100yds
Oliver F. Winchester
Peep sights
38-55 cal
250 gr Lee
42 gr Goex
.060 LDPE wad
1225 FPS

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z41/VonN_photos/IMG_2189.jpg

[Canuck Bob]

Its fun to discuss and imagine but I am very lucky to own both rifle types and would not part with my Marlin or two Winchesters. As a compulsive tinkerer I'm well suited to reloading, shooting, and over analyzing!

I gave up on moa scoped bolt guns years ago because I never found any corelation between the precision and hunting success for me. For my needs a sound lever action handles so well I feel most other guns feel clunky when shouldered.

Maybe a better question is what is good accuracy. My rifles will do 3" at 100 yards with a peep sight and just about any decent load or factory ammo. All three will do better with a little tweaking and tuning. I'm the limiting factor. My current goal for accuracy is to train to the point that my 100 yard supported and offhand groups are the same. A very tough goal indeed for me!

My belief is that any gun marksman combo who can always lay down 3" groups exactly were aimed at 100 yards offhand is a fine rifleman or riflewoman. For some weird reason I believe that the peep sighted Marlin or Winchester is the prefered rifle for this standard and not a lesser choice. Savage levers are superb guns to, I just prefer the exposed hammer on my hunting rifles.

[cajun shooter]

I'm not trying to be a person who thinks that they know everything there is to about guns. I have how ever been involved with them in a professional setting in both the military and in law enforcement in my life time.
I was trained as a sniper and a Firearms Instructor by attending Schools that were put on by the FBI. I also attended Armorer schools at S&W, Sig Sauer, Ruger, Remington and others.
Using this training and my experience in the shooting sports you "CAN NOT SAY NOR PROVE ONE GUN TO BE BETTER OVER A FORUM!!
This would require many side by side firings by one or more persons firing many different brands of both factory and hand loads. Then this test would only show the difference between the two rifles tested and not any others that came off the line before or after them.
It is no different than the old Ford VS Chevrolet disputes. It makes for conversation
but proves nothing. Later David

[Chill Wills]

cajun shooter,
You might be misunderstanding. My challenge to all who would Play was not to prove which brand was always more accurate, There for best. Not at all!

It was to draw out what real riflemen have done and can do with their chosen rifle.
Also, Did I mention have some fun!?

The Pictures are just a way of getting a little closer to fact than typing "I can shoot into 1/2 inch any time I chose.......trust me"

No body is trying to Prove much here. Not me anyway.

And....................Did I mention this is just for fun?
[smilie=l:

[cajun shooter]

First let me say that I really like where you live in Leadville as I have been there many times. I 'm envious of that but then I would get home sick for my Cajun Food.
When I was hunting 54 days out of Louisiana's 54 day gun season I would kill at least 5 deer a year.
We had a older gentleman at the camp that was hunting as a guest. We were on the Big Rack Program with the Wildlife and Fisheries Dept. We were allowed to only shoot a deer with a eight point rack or larger. It took over 5 years of management to reach the position of our herd being that healthy. I am saying this to give you some back ground on the club and conditions we hunted under.
You had to shoot a target at 100 and 200 yards with the rifle you brought to hunt with. If you failed to shoot well, you did not hunt.
The old man( I'm 65 now which was about his age then) kept asking me questions about what would happen if he shot the wrong deer. I explained the club rules and he asked me what was the longest shot I had ever made killing a deer. I told him it was 225 steps that we walked off. The reason is that the property is mostly swamp bottom land and in some places you can't see but 50 yards at best. Well he told me that if I was hunting by myself I could have put that deer at 450 yards!!
I assume that is what you meant by the 1/2 inch groups.
I see nothing wrong with having fun as I like pulling a few here and there.
So have at it and enjoy what you like as I was only adding information that I thought would help out some one. That was the spirit in which I wrote it and it was taken as being a serious scientific answer. It was in fun; know what I mean.

[TXGunNut]

Sure, everyone has a moa rifle/load. I hear that all the time!-Chill Wills


I get tired of hearing it, too. I have one rifle and two Contender barrels that will do it, two rifles that can do it and a pretty impressive array that likely never will. Some of those that won't will often fire impressive 3-shot groups. Guess that qualifies as MOA for some folks but not me. Seems all my rifles are hampered by a loose nut behind the trigger. :bigsmyl2:

[TXGunNut]

It was to draw out what real riflemen have done and can do with their chosen rifle.
Also, Did I mention have some fun!?-Chill Wills


Sounds like fun to me. I'd like to hear about accurizing work and loads as well, if that's not asking too much. I have a Guide Gun that turns in impressive groups on a regular basis and a 336 in 35 Rem that is evolving into a very nice rifle but my Winchesters are pretty much wallflowers and toys. I'd like to figure out how to make my 94's shoot like my Marlins. I'll even post a few targets, you folks know I'm not afraid of embarrasing myself but I'll try to pull out all the stops and print some "bragging groups" but if I can't I'll post 'em anyway. 20+ yrs of comp shooting humbles a man.
I'm looking forward to learning how to make my leverguns shoot, bring it on!

[pdawg_shooter]

With one exception, (a Winchester 88 in 308), Marlins have always been better shooters for me.

[Ramslammer]

G'Day
Mine all shoot one hole BUT I must only shoot one shot lol. Minute of Kangaroo does me just nice done here in Aus.
We shoot a 500m Lever Silhouette shoot every year and it's been won with Win1886' Win71(3 times), Marlin1895,Marlin 336, marlin XLR in 35 rem (that was my 5 mins of fame) and a Win 1895 in .303 british. So at the moment due to the mighty .348 Winchester is in front. Next year a 336 SS LTD in .35 rem will win (that would be my gun lol again).
Juddy

[Gunnut 45/454]

Well here's a target I shot with my Marlin 336 30-30 scoped. And a 50 yard target with my Win 94 open sites. As far as accuracy they are about the same ! Both shooters love them both but the Win 94 just carries better. As all my Wins do.:D

[olafhardt]

My NEF 500 S&W Handy rifle will shoot a PERFECT 1/2" group at every distance I have every tried it.

[kelbro]

I have both a Model 94 and a 336. Both shoot 2-3" at 100yds with open sights with factory ammo and slightly smaller groups with cast. When I put a scope on the Marlin, it does 2" consistently. I have been using the scope only for load development but each year that passes makes it more likely that I will leave it on for hunting.

[Gunnut 45/454]

kelbro
Yep old eyes and irons sites just don't work out at 100 yards anymore for me. Thats why the Marlin is scoped. My Win 94 '66 is the top eject model so scope is not an option. I use it for my walk around /wack things close rifle! :) When conditons and the shooter are right the Marlin will do under 1".

[pmer]

Here is a nice group I got today with my 50's Model 94 in 32 Winnie. The boolit is an Accurate Molds 32-150 cast in ACWW. Shot at 80 paces. Heck even the Shrew was impressed!

I only fired about a dozen of these loads and the barrel is very clean. The rifle is new to me and she's a beauty with a great trigger. The mold is an aluminum 4 banger with 2, 32-150s and 2, 32-170s. I still need to try the 32-170s and I hope they'll hit the paper in like fashion.

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=32-150B-D.png

7.0 of Bullseye, large rifle primer, 30-30 case and sized to .323

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_175404eff367be1e42.jpg

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_175404eff367c12212.jpg