Love my BFR

[Frank]

I just love my BFR 45/70. It is so good. Two different bullets. I load 5 of each. On each group on the 2nd or 3rd shot the bag goes soft. So I just tighten it and the remaining holes go right in. Off hand it hits the same zero both bullets.

http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc472/BrucknerIsGodsMusic/IMG_0724.jpg

[subsonic]

What's under the post-its?

Whatcha loadin?

[subsonic]

:Fire::Fire:Oh, and good shootin!

[Whiterabbit]

Fantastic. What range?

And how do you like those grips? I was thinking about buying the Pau Ferro grips from the website, those look nearly the same. Do you have long fingers, and do those grips make it easier to have a consistent grip?

I just put on my matchdot in the exact same way too, only difference is I put the forward ring all the way at the end of the rail and removed the front sight. Any reason why you chose to use the second rail slot and kept the front sight on?

[Frank]

50 yds. I like the finger grooves and rubber. It gives me more control. I try to get the sight as far back as I can. I left the front sight on because it doesn't bother me. I don't like an empty hole on the barrel when I can have a nice piece of plastic protecting it.

[Frank]

subsonic:

What's under the post-its?

Whatcha loadin?

Under the stickies are my notes. I don't want to sound like I'm giving others advice. I just wanted to show how BFR's shoot. And...


:Fire: :Fire: Oh, and good shootin!

Thanks! That is true. A lot of it is me also. They can bring their ransom rest and fail miserably against me! Go boolits! :cbpour:

[subsonic]

Well, I always look at the loads scrawled on the targets. I don't take them as gospel, but if it shoots good in a similar gun, odds are it is a decent load.

I need to burn a lot more powder and empty a few buckets of WW with the .475. I feel like I'm not shooting as well as I used to because I haven't been practicing, just load testing lately and fighting with stuff at the load bench.

No substitute for trigger time! Some people are "naturals", I am not and have to work to shoot well.

[insanelupus]

The BFR is now available in a short barreled (4 5/8") .44 Magnum. I'd love to have have one and try it out, but I'm just not a fan of the grip style they are using. I've shot Rugers with the similar grip style (though admittedly, not exactly the same). If they would go to a Bisley style grip (or more appropriately an 1860 Army style grip) I'd plunk down the cabbage to try it in a heartbeat!

[Frank]

subsonic:

Well, I always look at the loads scrawled on the targets. I don't take them as gospel, but if it shoots good in a similar gun, odds are it is a decent load.

I need to burn a lot more powder and empty a few buckets of WW with the .475. I feel like I'm not shooting as well as I used to because I haven't been practicing, just load testing lately and fighting with stuff at the load bench.

No substitute for trigger time! Some people are "naturals", I am not and have to work to shoot well.

I can tell you the load, but it won't make any difference because there is a lot more to it than what I write on the notes. That is for my reference. Because if you try to duplicate it you will fail. What makes it accurate is the way everything goes together.

The best thing is to tell me what you've got, what you've tried and let's see if I can solve your problem. I'm a problem solver. That's it. OK? I recall vaguely you were having a leading problem with your .475. Correct? Do you have a 45/70? Whatever it is probably just needs a little tuning. For some that is a lot of work. For others, finding time to cast bullets is a seasonal activity. For them, they can forget it. There is no hope. :drinks:

[Frank]

insanelupus:

The BFR is now available in a short barreled (4 5/8") .44 Magnum. I'd love to have have one and try it out, but I'm just not a fan of the grip style they are using. I've shot Rugers with the similar grip style (though admittedly, not exactly the same). If they would go to a Bisley style grip (or more appropriately an 1860 Army style grip) I'd plunk down the cabbage to try it in a heartbeat!

That's a big price to pay for not being a fan of the grip. The BFR 44 mag could very well be the most accurate 44 Magnum out there. But I do have the benefits of a long barrel and rifle caliber.

[subsonic]

subsonic:


I can tell you the load, but it won't make any difference because there is a lot more to it than what I write on the notes. That is for my reference. Because if you try to duplicate it you will fail. What makes it accurate is the way everything goes together.

The best thing is to tell me what you've got, what you've tried and let's see if I can solve your problem. I'm a problem solver. That's it. OK? I recall vaguely you were having a leading problem with your .475. Correct? Do you have a 45/70? Whatever it is probably just needs a little tuning. For some that is a lot of work. For others, finding time to cast bullets is a seasonal activity. For them, they can forget it. There is no hope. :drinks:

Yes, leading with the .475. We are approaching muzzleloader season right now, so the pistols are in the safe for a while. After new years the .475 is gonna get a workout. I am waiting for a paypal request from Mihec for the .477 cramer HP as we speak. It carries more lube than the Lee and hopefully penetrates straighter in game. But I do plan to shoot more of that 400gr Lee boolit cast with from WW with tin added instead of just straight WW, because it did turn in impressive groups until it leaded. I try to get by with WDWW when I can, but lately the batch of WW I'm workin with hasn't worked very well in anything. If you have suggestions, I'm always listening. I'm not in a big hurry to use gas checks, but that might be where I end up.

I don't own a .45-70 BFR, but as good as they shoot.... I might someday. The only things I was curious about were whether you were using SR4759 or not and approx weight of boolit.

[Frank]

subsonic:

I am waiting for a paypal request from Mihec for the .477 cramer HP as we speak. It carries more lube than the Lee and hopefully penetrates straighter in game. But I do plan to shoot more of that 400gr Lee boolit cast with from WW with tin added instead of just straight WW, because it did turn in impressive groups until it leaded. I try to get by with WDWW when I can, but lately the batch of WW I'm workin with hasn't worked very well in anything. If you have suggestions, I'm always listening. I'm not in a big hurry to use gas checks, but that might be where I end up.
If you need more lube, you can use the crimp groove. On the groups you see above all grooves have lube in them. But the bullets are all within 1/2 grain and are hard.

Powder used is SR 4759, 30 grains and 27.5 grains and weights are 350 and 425 grains respectively You can see which target has the heavier bullet.

Lube is LBT Blue Soft. They are sized nose first through a Lee .459 die using LBT soft, then carefully sized through the lubesizer .459 die. If you go through the lubesizer first to cut the lead, you will ruin the bullet. Balance is the most important thing. There is no such thing as a good six cavity mold.

[subsonic]

I am lubing the crimp groove. I size just like you do for the same reasons. I like my two 6 cavity molds, but use them for making bulk boolits for casual short range "friends and family" useage and they get fed through my progressive press. Quite a bit different than the shooting and loading I do with my .475!

I can't wait to try some stuff out, but I'm busy until after the first of the year. I'll be lucky to have a chance to cast before then. But I guess the good news is that the tire shops are busy right now - and you know what that means!

[Frank]

subsonic:

I can't wait to try some stuff out, but I'm busy until after the first of the year. I'll be lucky to have a chance to cast before then. But I guess the good news is that the tire shops are busy right now - and you know what that means!

It was good to hear from another BFR owner! I only wish you and some others here who have one would do more with them.

[saz]

subsonic:


It was good to hear from another BFR owner! I only wish you and some others here who have one would do more them.

I am with ya Frank! I bought a 7.5" BFR in 500 S&W a few months ago and has been what my wife referred to as my "mistress" ever since. It is one impressive revolver. I have been having a blast with it ever since. Extremely accurate. i kept reading very good things about them and I stumbled on mine for a price I could not in good conscience turn down- been smiles ever since!:bigsmyl2:

[Frank]

I like Magnums leather holsters. They look really nice.

[subsonic]

Frank, what's up with the hammer pin in the top pic? It looks like it's sliding out?

[Frank]

Good point. That does tend to happen with the SBH grips. I just put up with it but you are right. There is a problem there. Maybe I can epoxy a little plastic flat on the grip inside so it is covered.

[subsonic]

Doesn't one of the frame screws catch a groove in that pin like a ruger?

[44man]

Doesn't one of the frame screws catch a groove in that pin like a ruger?
NO, if you remove the grip frame, there is another set screw from the rear that holds the hammer pin. It must be loose.
The Ruger uses a lower grip frame screw. The BFR frame is too large for it to work right so they came in from the back with another screw.
Frank, the grip does NOT hold the pin in.

[Frank]

More Action...:Fire:

Here's the BFR .475 Linebaugh
with Ultradot Pan-V sight

I aim at that bottom part. ;)

http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc472/BrucknerIsGodsMusic/IMG_0008.jpg?t=1324830600

[subsonic]

Why do you like those funny looking targets?

How do you like the N110?

[Frank]

subsonic:

Why do you like those funny looking targets?
You got a better one?

N110 is an extruded powder and fills the case well. Cases aren't very dirty on extraction like W296. Down side it is more expensive. Maybe Hodgdon should come out with a powder to match it.

[Whiterabbit]

More expensive per POUND, or more expensive per ROUND?

People told me for months that trailboss wasn't cheaper than H110, maybe even more expensive. Then I figured if I was using 50 grains of H110 and 12 grains of trailboss.......

[subsonic]

Frank,

I asked about the target to see if it helps you with lining up the ultra-dot in a more repeatable way. For my eyes @ 50yds, the best I've found so far is a 10" paper plate. I (so far) like it better than even a ring to put the dot in.

The N110 is interesting. How is velocity compared to 296?

Can I bother you to post a close-up pic of your 420 gr .475 boolit?

[subsonic]

More expensive per POUND, or more expensive per ROUND?

People told me for months that trailboss wasn't cheaper than H110, maybe even more expensive. Then I figured if I was using 50 grains of H110 and 12 grains of trailboss.......

Most people don't use 50gr of H110 in their revolvers!
And Trailboss is sold in a 9oz container, instead of 16oz. So you get roughly half the powder for the same price as a pound of some cheaper pistol powders.

I would be really curious as to how well your .460 would shoot with SR4759 loaded about like Frank's .45-70.... Both cases are similar in capacity and roughly .45 caliber.
The .460 is 1.8" long vs the .45-70 at 2.1" Hornady shows more powder across the board for the .460 vs .45-70 in pistol data because of the higher pressure limits.

[44man]

The problem I have had with 4759 is a lack of loading info. They even stopped making it once but thankfully it came back yet it is considered a weak sister in all manuals.
I was sort of on my own with the 45-70 BFR and found if the load is reduced a little too much it will fail to light. It is the most accurate from the short barrels in the end. (10" is short for a 45-70.)
I wish Hodgdon would do more work with it.
The same with Varget. I needed a load for the 7R and 7BR but they said it would not work----SURPRISE! It is just fabulous in both. They have no idea of the span of use for Varget.

[subsonic]

I have used Varget in my .30 Herrett and while it Burned dirty and was not the fastest powder, it worked. Varget was too bulky to put enough in the case to reach top velocity.
I would think Varget would also work in the .460...

[44man]

I have used Varget in my .30 Herrett and while it Burned dirty and was not the fastest powder, it worked. Varget was too bulky to put enough in the case to reach top velocity.
I would think Varget would also work in the .460...
It burns real clean for me in the little cases. My pistols have fast twists for heavy bullets used for IHMSA. I wanted a load for the 120 gr SSP bullet for deer and they would not shoot at all, spray and pray! :holysheep
I tried every powder, then Varget. I got down to 1/2" at 50 yards in the MOA, 7BR using 32.5 gr at 2175 FPS. 10" barrel.
In the 7R I use 34.5 gr. I don't know how fast it is.

[subsonic]

There are a lot of loads for the straight walled rifle cartridges with Varget.

[saz]

I have had very good luck with 4759 the little bit I have been working with the 500S&W. It has very low SD, but I have to hand weigh each charge as I cannot get it very accurate out of either of my measures- Lee PPM or my Lyman 55 +/- .5grs from the measure at best. Just have to figure it out.

Varget cought my attention when I tried it in my 35 whelen, and a friend of mine swears by it in his 45/70. Dont suppose anyone here has tried it in a 500 Smith? I'm not really sure where to start with it.

[subsonic]

I would try to copy a load for the closest straight walled cartridge I could find with the most similar boolit weight. I think you might find rifle data for the .45-70 and .450 Marlin with Varget and heavy boolits and at lower pressures than what the .500 max is. Since Varget is slower than SR4759 and pretty bulky, I don't think you will be able to get enough in the case to be over pressure, but remember that it is your gun and hand, and act accordingly and conservatively. Watch for squibs and keep a dowel and mallet handy.

If you haven't seen this, take a look:
http://john-ross.net/loading.htm

[saz]

I would try to copy a load for the closest straight walled cartridge I could find with the most similar boolit weight. I think you might find rifle data for the .45-70 and .450 Marlin with Varget and heavy boolits and at lower pressures than what the .500 max is. Since Varget is slower than SR4759 and pretty bulky, I don't think you will be able to get enough in the case to be over pressure, but remember that it is your gun and hand, and act accordingly and conservatively. Watch for squibs and keep a dowel and mallet handy.

If you haven't seen this, take a look:
http://john-ross.net/loading.htm

That article is what I used to find a starting point with 4759 in the 500. I am pushing my 550gr boolit to 1275, and I have some space left in the case. I barely got that load dialed in before I left, so when I get home it is time to load a hundred or so and practice with it. I want to try Varget but I am a little sceptical as to its effectiveness through a 7.5" barrel- but what do I know, im still a rookie!

[44man]

That article is what I used to find a starting point with 4759 in the 500. I am pushing my 550gr boolit to 1275, and I have some space left in the case. I barely got that load dialed in before I left, so when I get home it is time to load a hundred or so and practice with it. I want to try Varget but I am a little sceptical as to its effectiveness through a 7.5" barrel- but what do I know, im still a rookie!
No flies on 1275 fps with a 550 gr for anything on earth.
If you try Varget, be sure to post. I have no idea what it would do in a 7-1/2" barrel.

[tek4260]

Got to shoot dad's 45-70 BFR yesterday. No recoil to speak of and it actually balances pretty good. I did notice that the cylinder is waaaay longer than it needs to be with 350gr HP's. I think if it were cut to the length of the ERH and had some wood grips, it would be a keeper.

What weight boolits can you stuff in that cylinder, 1000gr? I swear it looked like there was .750" to the nose of the HP's.

[44man]

Got to shoot dad's 45-70 BFR yesterday. No recoil to speak of and it actually balances pretty good. I did notice that the cylinder is waaaay longer than it needs to be with 350gr HP's. I think if it were cut to the length of the ERH and had some wood grips, it would be a keeper.

What weight boolits can you stuff in that cylinder, 1000gr? I swear it looked like there was .750" to the nose of the HP's.
Yes, lots of room. But boolit jump has no affect at all on accuracy. That is an old wives tale and why some gun makers make cylinders too short.
I just do not have a more accurate revolver then the 45-70 BFR. My best has been 5 shots in 5/16" at 50, 5 in 3/4" at 100 and a 2-1/2" group at 500 yards.
A mid frame would be nice for sure but I can't complain.
It is funny to need a flashlight to see the boolit nose but don't worry, it will be OK.

[Whiterabbit]

Maybe blowing out the lube from the bullet as it travels from the case to the forcing cone? Resulting in insufficient lube at the end of the barrel? (no comment on any relationship between that and accuracy?)

I got to take my BFR out today with the new Hogue grips, identical to the pic at the top. Much, much better than the OEM clamshell grips. Lower grip point AND less perceived recoil. Which I don't understand, and don't care. Only thing I have to fix besides developing grip uniformity is correct the tendency for my pinky to slip the bottom groove under recoil and butt up against my ring finger, resting on the peak of the groove separator section.

What a fun day.

[Frank]

Whiterabbit:

I got to take my BFR out today with the new Hogue grips, identical to the pic at the top. Much, much better than the OEM clamshell grips. Lower grip point AND less perceived recoil. Which I don't understand, and don't care. Only thing I have to fix besides developing grip uniformity is correct the tendency for my pinky to slip the bottom groove under recoil and butt up against my ring finger, resting on the peak of the groove separator section.

What a fun day.
I know what you mean about the grip. It gets kind of crowded down there, doesn't it? I tried the wood grips. They are too big. Wood is slippery. Factory are a hard rubber with checkering but you are doing better now. You have finger grooves that give you more control.

[saz]

No flies on 1275 fps with a 550 gr for anything on earth.
If you try Varget, be sure to post. I have no idea what it would do in a 7-1/2" barrel.

Yeah, 550grs will do anything I would EVER want to do. Some say overkill, but I say there is no such thing as "too" dead. In all seriousness, I hunt for meat 95% of the time but I do not want to leave Alaska without a big bear. I have taken a few smaller ones, and it is VERY surprising how tough the hide is on those things. If I have a chance at a quartering shot and it is the only shot I can get, I do not want to be "undergunned". I backed up a friend of mine hunting for costal brownies a few years ago, and this 9.5 footer took 6 shots from both our 375's loaded with 300gr barnes TSX's at 90 yards before running 100 yards and hiding in a thicket- I am not crawling in after a wounded bear again......

I wont be back from afghanistan for a while, but trying varget is on my list of things to try. I love 4759 except for my inability to throw consistent charges from either of my measures. I have to hand weigh and trickle every charge. If anyone has better luck with it, I am all ears.

[Whiterabbit]

Frank and 44man (or anyone that spends the motivation to maximize BFR performance and wants to chime in) I have a question about YOUR practices for brass prep.

How overboard do you get? Do you separate headstamp? do you trim for consistent length for consistent seat depth (for consistent net case volume for presumably consistent pressure)? Do you sort brass by weight?

I ask because I do none of this. The result is technically inconsistent expansion in the expanding die, inconsistent crimps, and because the OAL is consistent, the internal volume of each case is a little different.

This is of course all technically academic, the tolerance is measured in the thousanths. The brass mouth always ends in the crimp groove, the only reason I'm aware of discrepancies is because I own calipers and notice the force on the press lever to seat a bullet is not identical from round to round. Otherwise, I would be blissfully ignorant.

SO! You guys put down some awesome groups. Do you do it with loosey-goosey brass, impeccable brass sort and prep, or is it something in between?

----

edit: Saz, be safe.

[saz]

I have a question about YOUR practices for brass prep.

Do you separate headstamp? ALWAYS!

Do you trim for consistent length for consistent seat depth (for consistent net case volume for presumably consistent pressure)? Absolutely- after every firing.

Do you sort brass by weight? No. I have not found any merit to accuracy with that at the ranges I shoot pistols at.

I ask because I do none of this. The result is technically inconsistent expansion in the expanding die, inconsistent crimps, and because the OAL is consistent, the internal volume of each case is a little different. I learned A LOT about the importance of brass prep while loading BPCR- it teaches you to be very anal.

This is of course all technically academic, the tolerance is measured in the thousanths. The brass mouth always ends in the crimp groove, the only reason I'm aware of discrepancies is because I own calipers and notice the force on the press lever to seat a bullet is not identical from round to round. Otherwise, I would be blissfully ignorant.

SO! You guys put down some awesome groups. Do you do it with loosey-goosey brass, impeccable brass sort and prep, or is it something in between?

----

edit: Saz, be safe. Thanks Whiterabbit!

As far as brass prep goes, I make it a point to buy only one headstamp per caliber for my revolvers, or I will seperate the headstamps for the load that is used. For example, my 44mag brass is - Starline- heavy loads, federal- 250gr keith loads etc.... It makes things simple. I figure every little bit of prep helps to a degree, and consistincy is the key, but IMHO none are more important than consistent brass length. I will experiment with different things, but make sure you only change one thing at a time, or you will never know what factor comtributed to your gain/loss of accuracy.

[44man]

Frank and 44man (or anyone that spends the motivation to maximize BFR performance and wants to chime in) I have a question about YOUR practices for brass prep.

How overboard do you get? Do you separate headstamp? do you trim for consistent length for consistent seat depth (for consistent net case volume for presumably consistent pressure)? Do you sort brass by weight?

I ask because I do none of this. The result is technically inconsistent expansion in the expanding die, inconsistent crimps, and because the OAL is consistent, the internal volume of each case is a little different.

This is of course all technically academic, the tolerance is measured in the thousanths. The brass mouth always ends in the crimp groove, the only reason I'm aware of discrepancies is because I own calipers and notice the force on the press lever to seat a bullet is not identical from round to round. Otherwise, I would be blissfully ignorant.

SO! You guys put down some awesome groups. Do you do it with loosey-goosey brass, impeccable brass sort and prep, or is it something in between?

----

edit: Saz, be safe.
I am glad you found the "feel" difference when seating boolits. I have a way to measure that but the 45-70 does not seem as picky as the .44 and .45 Colt.
I just keep makes of brass separate and do nothing else. I don't weigh it, mess with flash holes, etc, I just try to keep all the same length.
I do not use hard crimps because I depend on case tension.
Brass is so important but it will be the structure, grain and hardness of the brass. Brand new brass is just not very accurate because hardness varies a lot.
If you want to try something, separate brass by where it hits the target. All high shots in one pile and low in another, etc. Then load each in those batches.
The more even the tension is on the boolts, the more accuracy you will have from the revolver. It is the hardest gun to get right. There is nothing else to hold each boolit in until good ignition and is why primer choice is also so important so you don't blow boolits loose early. Anything that moves boolits different amounts changes the case capacity for each shot.
Yes brass is the most important thing but just fooling with it does not change it's structure or the even grip on the boolit.
You can de-burr flash holes and change crimps forever but that will not change a thing.
If you shoot jacketed from the revolver, tension is just as important and it must be as even as you can make it. Never think crimp will fix it!
Think how great a strain gauge setup would be to separate loads by the pounds it takes to seat boolits!

[Whiterabbit]

I was thinking simple spring scale but a strain gauge would certainly add a few orders of magnitude of accuracy to that measurement!

What you are saying about case tension makes alot of sense. I took out some loads yesterday without gas check (not accuracy testing, lube and leading testing only) and based on the feel during seating (partially prompted my asking about it) I suspected they might jump crimp. One jumped crimp by 1mm or so. First time that ever happened.

So now I'm suspecting my bullets stay in place heavily due to case tension on that gas check. That really begs the question of the importance of crimping beyond removing the seating flare.

On my list is to play with primers too, but I didn't realize the importance you guys place on primer choice for revolvers. Maybe I got lucky with rifle, but it doesn't seem to matter. I'm definitely moving up the "try new primers" action item on the list.

Right behind trim my latest batch of brass and sort.

I predict lots of fun in the next few weeks (for the weeks I'm in the country myself!)

I'm still open to any and all brass prep advice. I've got the latest batch just sized and deprimed as of yesterday night, stopped in case I was gonna trim. So now's the time to experiment with any practices that you guys know work for you!

[44man]

Not the tension on the gas check, just the boolit. Doesn't have to be super tight, just even from case to case.
Recoil pulled boolits is where the proper crimp is needed but what I refer to is a boolit coming loose at firing. All need the exact same movement at exactly the same time.
I know it is hard to predict. I fail a lot too.
Here is a group I shot at 50 yards with uneven tension with my .475 BFR.

[Frank]

I just checked my 45/70 brass. It ranged from 2.100 to 2.108 after sizing. Now it is 2.100. The only reason I care is when I crimp it needs to fit into the groove. Brass can't be all over the place.

I would say the most important thing is having a good bullet design, all evenly casted, and at the proper alloy, preferably a ductile alloy of 1.5% Sb but very hard from heat treating. The bullet needs to be hard enough to resist deformation during firing and "jump", but ductile enough to not break apart in game.

50/50 alloy that is water dropped from a hot mold, or heat treated provides the best accuracy. Going higher on the antimony is not good because that leads to nose separation and destroyed meat. The best solution is a hard shank and soft nose.

[Frank]

Whiterabbit:

SO! You guys put down some awesome groups. Do you do it with loosey-goosey brass, impeccable brass sort and prep, or is it something in between?

No prep. Just start with new cases and don't trim for the first firings. Don't clean primer pockets either. Waste of time.

[44man]

You do need some decent tension for good powder start but I found looser shot as well as tighter but POI was far different. Too loose is no good, you really need a grip on boolits. It is even more important then with jacketed because we have lube in there.
Does a soft, sticky lube like felix aid grip? I sure don't know but it sure does shoot better.
I got carried away long ago with brass prep but found it too much work unless I were to shoot BR. Notice the BR shooters sort by where a case hits and they load the same cases at the bench for a match.
I was doing terrible at IHMSA when I started until I noticed the different feel to seating jacketed bullets. The light went on and I made the seating pressure gauge on my press handle to go on and win every shoot by sorting loads.
My worst .44 loads were from RCBS dies. Expansion was wrong. I use Hornady dies now but if anyone wants to get to the nitty-gritty I have BR dies for the .44 that use collars. This was before Redding came out with collar rifle dies. The very best by the way, no plug to pull out to bend shoulders. Size too much and pulling a plug out insures a bullet run out. It always goes back to the brass.
Back in my varmint hunting days I was head shooting chucks at over 600 yards with a .220 Swift and a .300 Weatherby. I sent dies back to have them lapped for minimal sizing. The Weatherby brass is crazy and shoulders can bend FAST. Control it and you will find accuracy that is mind blowing.

[Frank]

So what you, 44man, discovered is measuring seating pressure is more effective than just measuring necks after sizing. Your explanation makes sense because when I sized my bottleneck cartridges using Redding bushing dies never gave me the best accuracy either. The best accuracy was with Redding standard dies. I feel this is because an expander ball makes sure tension is the same, from inside the neck, regardless of neck thickness variation. Good accuracy is also obtained with Lee collet dies. But with pistol calibers there is no way to have an expander ball or collet die. But you find the solution by measuring seating pressure. I'll bet your tool works in evaluating how bottleneck dies can make neck tension variance that translates also to the target.

[subsonic]

With single chamber cartridges, the OAL can be adjusted so the bullet kisses the rifling. This has some effect on shot start pressure. Can't do that in a revolver - jump has to be too far to the rifling.

My .308 is going to get experimented with this spring. One thing I'm goin to test is seating pressure an finally get around to actual load development! 44man's seating arm definitely will help you find donuts. It worked on my .30 Herrett.

Frank, you're right on that if you don't turn necks to a uniform thickness, you need to use the expander ball, or better yet, an expander in a separate step that comes in from the mouth. Some guys partially expand with an M-die.

[subsonic]

Oh, and the .308 has a Redding bushing die, Forster micrometer seater, and Lapua brass allocated to it, but the smallest groups thus far were fired with Lake City machinegun brass that I loaded with regular old cheap-*** Lee dies![smilie=s:[smilie=s:[smilie=s:

[Frank]

Just as important as the gun is the sight. What good is an accurate gun if you use Chinese garbage? :brokenima

[subsonic]

Only Japanese or US (Leupold) scopes for me when I'm serious. I was pretty skeptical of the UD30, but so far so good. I had a Tasco "varmint" scope with adjustable objective on a .22 once. You could watch on the bore sighter and see the whole scope tube bend when adjusting the parallax. That'll drive you crazy!

[Frank]

subsonic:

Can I bother you to post a close-up pic of your 420 gr .475 boolit?

LBT 420 WFN.

http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc472/BrucknerIsGodsMusic/IMG_0003.jpg

[Whiterabbit]

wow. Is the entire front half of the nose in front of the crimp groove one massive driving band?

[Whiterabbit]

44man, what about using something like a taper crimp or a lee factory crimp die as an attempt to make case tension around the bullet more uniform?

[Frank]

It sure is. One big band up front. :D

[subsonic]

.450" nose?

[subsonic]

44man, what about using something like a taper crimp or a lee factory crimp die as an attempt to make case tension around the bullet more uniform?

I'm not Jim, but I'm going to tell you that in my experience when pulling boolits to find out, crimp is only about 10%, maybe less of the total boolit pull. The sizer does 90% or more of the work.

Seat a boolit in a fired case and crimp as much as you want. It will just about fall out. Size a case and seat the boolit, but don't crimp. Try to pull it. Do the same, but add a crimp and you will find little difference in the force required to pull the boolit.

The crimp is poor insurance, and maybe does more in a tube magazine than a revolver.

Look at your neck expander die and make sure it is .003" or smaller than you boolit. Make sure the neck ID after sizing is at least .003" smaller than your boolit.

Makes me wonder if all of the guys that have better luck with oversize (instead of throat size) boolits really know why they work better.

[44man]

Subsonic is right, crimp is only needed for a recoil hold or hold in a magazine and the best way to figure it in the revolver is to shoot four or five and make sure the last boolit has not moved. Tension still does the most.
Once a boolit is in the brass you can not tighten the tension and can loosen it by crimping too much.
It is true that we have no rifling to get close to and a boolit can move just from primer pressure before ignition.
Oversize boolits? Maybe not unless lead is so soft the brass only sizes it to what is needed anyway.
I measured my best boolit for the .44 to find the last batch is .429" to .430" (I screwed up the alloy!) and is shot from a .430 groove, .4324" throats. The gun does well up to .432" boolits because even the smaller ones have enough tension.
I had to take new pictures, here is my seating set up. The long rod is 1/8" piano wire from a hobby shop. The little rod has graduations and a rubber washer that stops at a graduation, reset it after every load. The other end has a simple link so it slides.
Just start a boolit with the press handle and seat with the rod, it will bend and move the washer. Put that load in a marked pile.
Lets say you have ten piles with loose fitting boolits to hard ones. Shoot the loose pile and you might get good groups but the hard fitting boolits might group as much as 10" from the loose ones. You sure do no want to mix them.

[44man]

Pictures OK Frank?
Whiterabbit, stay away from the Lee factory crimp die! Just a moderate roll crimp with the seating die. I seat and crimp most in one operation too. I never found a need to crimp separately.
A Redding profile crimp die does work OK but ONLY IF A BOOLIT WILL PASS THROUGH IT. Large diameter boolits will get sized.
Don't crimp with the rod setup, just seat so you might want to crimp separate.

[Whiterabbit]

fantastic. There's definitely some confirmation of some of my experiences. I had been crimping heavily (there can be significant recoil in my BFR) with no problems, but due to seat loading pressure differentials I wanted to crimp less and have been doing so less and less and less for the past several months with zero issue as long as the bullets are jacketed or with gas check. Looks like the reasoning behind that is sound.

Just for S&G the next batch will be max H110 loads with a crimp so light it's just there to take the flare out of the brass mouth. I'll bet I get no bullet jumping.

The rod setup there is just fantastic. Though I like your idea about the strain gauge even better :) Maybe a new press rod made of a lower elastic modulus metal with a flat ground on the front side about 2/3rds down the rod to give a good spot to affix the gauge?

[Frank]

44man:

Pictures OK Frank?
Thanks! 8-)

[Whiterabbit]

It sure is. One big band up front. :D

So Frank, you completely disagree with the last two paragraphs of this web page with regards to bullet design?

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bulletDesign.php

Or perhaps your thoughts would be to size the bullet to .430 rather than .431 (as per example) and go ahead and put whatever driving band is desirable into the throat?

[44man]

So Frank, you completely disagree with the last two paragraphs of this web page with regards to bullet design?

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bulletDesign.php
I would think the shoulder and smaller ogive is needed if the base of the boolit is over throat size so you can chamber.
Never have I found a boolit over throat size an advantage though.
A smooth transition through the cone is enough. The lower portion of the ogive at the shoulder should not be smaller then groove size. You do not want to depend on the shoulder to align the cylinder.

[Frank]

Whiterabbit:

So Frank, you completely disagree with the last two paragraphs of this web page with regards to bullet design?

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bulletDesign.php

Or perhaps your thoughts would be to size the bullet to .430 rather than .431 (as per example) and go ahead and put whatever driving band is desirable into the throat?
The whole design is based on chambering, while neglecting the more important factor, stability. Why sacrifice driving band material for reloading ease? Like you say, keep the heavy band and just get a smaller sizer. The boolit doens't need to be over throat size either. When the primer ignites I want no sizing and no looseness. The perfect dimensions that you the caster can control! More body up front means more powder capacity and power.

[Whiterabbit]

Last thing I need is more powder capacity. I DID get some time out in the shop to measure and trim my pistol brass though. Starline says brass is to be 1.79 to 1.795 inches or so, my shortest brass was 1.795, my longest was just over 1.822 inches.

:holysheep

Now trimmed to just over 1.795, and after new testing I'll trim everything I have onsite to 1.790.

no WONDER some crimps felt tighter than others..... [smilie=b:

[Frank]

Whiterabbit:

Starline says brass is to be 1.79 to 1.795 inches or so, my shortest brass was 1.795, my longest was just over 1.822 inches.

Why is some brass longer? Is it fired more often? Now you may have mixed relatively new and very used brass. You might want to get a new batch and discard.

[Whiterabbit]

good chance new and old is mixed. I can't afford all new brass though, very expensive (about a buck a piece)

surely brass age plays a second order effect on accuracy compared to the other factors discussed?

[subsonic]

If you sort by POI and/or seating pressure, I think you can use what you have. Work backwards from you objective!

I also remember you saying your loads shot pretty well in another gun, so the loads must not be too bad. There is no magic spell on the other gun that will make bad ammo still shoot. You just need to "adjust" your loada to your revolver.

[Frank]

Whiterabbit:

good chance new and old is mixed. I can't afford all new brass though, very expensive (about a buck a piece)

surely brass age plays a second order effect on accuracy compared to the other factors discussed?
Just buy 50 cases. Some people here only shoot new cases, so they are the big spenders. You save by reloading. Everything has to be the same, same lot #. You can reload those cases 20 times. That's 1,000 loads. $50/1,000 is 5 cents a round.

[ebner glocken]

393353933439334[I am a fan of magnum reasearch myself. All shoot better than I do in my experience. None of these are used as concelment guns. From top down 500 smith, 50 AE (jrh cylinder is going to be in the works), 50 ae, and 41 mag. If someone knows how to flip that pic by all means feel free.

Ebner

[Whiterabbit]

Easy. You load the picture, then rotate the monitor upside down.

Right??

[44man]

Easy. You load the picture, then rotate the monitor upside down.

Right??
OH MY, I spit out my coffee! :bigsmyl2:
Get back to brass. I am so lazy I never, ever have sorted brass by times fired. I have never found any advantage and some of my best .44 groups were shot with brass fired over 40X. The box also has brass fired 20X and maybe a few shot 10X????
I shoot a bunch, tumble the fired brass, size, expand, seat primers and put them back in the MTM boxes.
I will be darned if I can say what one case has been through but I know some of this stuff has been shot since 1983. :veryconfu
New brass has always shot the worst. It has the largest variation in case tension.

[Frank]

Did you ever get new brass? You were mentioning before your brass was so tough it wouldn't go into the die. I haven't ever heard of that happening before.

[44man]

I have not heard of that either but over the years I have tested new brass. I have shown this before, just the .44 with 50 new cases, shot from bags with a scope at 50 yards.
I sorted by POI and put them in the box that way but they got mixed anyway! [smilie=1:I am so stinking LAX so forgive me.
You could, if you pay more attention then me, sort by POI and never mix the brass. But never would I test any loads with brand new brass unless you can measure the seat pressures.
Crazy how something so simple can mean so much but brass tension can be all over the place. It might be the most important thing for anyone to look at.
How much improvement can be had in the revolver from using BR techniques? I think it is much more important.

[Frank]

Now tell us, what is the problem with a Keith bullet? A BFR thread wouldn't be complete without seeing what a Keith design does in the barrel. :confused:

[44man]

Now tell us, what is the problem with a Keith bullet? A BFR thread wouldn't be complete without seeing what a Keith design does in the barrel. :confused:
I have a ton of them in all calibers. None will shoot as good as I want.
Decent to be sure but a paper plate should have all shots in it from 200 to 400 yards. Many Keith boolits will not do it at 100.

[gandydancer]

who makes the BFR? is that magnum research? GD

[ebner glocken]

who makes the BFR? is that magnum research? GD

Magnum reasearch makes BFRs.

http://www.magnumresearch.com/BFR.asp

They may look kinda odd but wow do they shoot well.

Ebner

[gandydancer]

Thanks Ebner. I would have one of their revolvers But I no longer can handle recoil due to spine surgery lost about 80% use of my hands and arms can't seem to get it back. still have my 454 freedom arms revolver. can't shoot it. can't give it up. oh well. Tom UPDATE 1/9/12 I was told or informed today I have about 40 % use of my arms I can lift about 30 pounds the wrist and hands still not so good but hey it could br worse. gandy

[44man]

Thanks Ebner. I would have one of their revolvers But I no longer can handle recoil due to spine surgery lost about 80% use of my hands and arms can't seem to get it back. still have my 454 freedom arms revolver. can't shoot it. can't give it up. oh well. Tom
That is sad to hear. My wife was in an accident when some girl was on a cell phone and turned in front of her. Busted 3 disks and gave her severe leg pain. No surgery, we found the machine at a great doctor's that she was put on. It healed the disks, took time and cost a bunch but it worked. The alternative was spine fusion---NO WAY.
Now the big BFR in 45-70 has less recoil then a .44 mag and a lot less then a .454 with the same velocity range.
I wonder if you could handle it from a bench?

[Frank]

44man:

Now the big BFR in 45-70 has less recoil then a .44 mag and a lot less then a .454 with the same velocity range.
I wonder if you could handle it from a bench?
How about the BFR in .22 Hornet? Now that's a caliber you can put your Burris or NC Star scope on. Bag some varmints cowboy style.

[44man]

44man:

How about the BFR in .22 Hornet? Now that's a caliber you can put your Burris or NC Star scope on. Bag some varmints cowboy style.
Sure, no recoil. I hate to see anyone that has to stop shooting.