QUESTIONS First cast deer recovered boolit

[30hrrtt]

I shot my first deer this year using boolits I cast myself. It was a Lyman 429244 cast of ACWW + 2%tin and hollow pointed 1/8" with the forster hollowpointer.

The shot was high and entered the back off center just behind the shoulder and went through the upper cartilage of the shoulder blade, clipped off the top spines of a few vertibrae, and came to a stop under the skin in the neck close to the head on the other side. It traveled about 18". It looked to have expanded early to a diameter of about .65. The nose only expanded to the bottom of the shallow hollow point, It broke off when it hit the vertibrae spines, first one piece and then a couple forward another. The bullet started out at 270 and ended up with the main piece at 250. Impact velocity estimated at 1650 - 1700 fps. The deer dropped but needed a finish shot.

I didn't expect to recover it, nor did I want to. I shoot a 94 trapper with a 16" barrel when I'm driving deer and my goal was to be able to shoot at almost any angle but think with the hollow point, that may not be possible. I recall Lloyd shooting a buffalo with a similar bullet and got complete penetration.

If my goal is to be able to shoot from any angle, should I eliminate the hollow point? Should I change my alloy? Should I go with a heavier bullet such as the Lee 310 that I also have? Alter the speed? Looking for imput.

Am trying to post a picture of before and after but haven't figured it out yet. It's a 2.5 mb jpg. I need to shrink it somehow before it will download.

Thanks

[GLynn41]

--do not HP it -- as soft that is likely to be 11bhn?-- and the impact velocity -you will get expansion any way -- but the Lee is good and inexpensive-- it would work too-- either one ought to give y ou your goal-- btw I am surprized it did not come out too

[selmerfan]

Eliminate the HP, maybe run a harder bullet. I used to trade Lloyd for the boolits I deer hunted with in my .454 Casull barrel. I ran a couple of them from one end to the other on big Iowa whitetails and never caught one in the body, and he made me hard boolits. I don't know how hard, but I know he likes linotype for casting, but I doubt they were pure lino. Check with Lloyd and see what he'd recommend.

[357maximum]

The following opinion is my own and may be worth exactly what you paid for it:-P

It was earned through several functional yet slightly dissapointing kills .....cast hollowpoints are a waste of time and energy for deer hunting. Use a good tough yet mallable alloy that matches your launch speed with a flat nose and be done with it. Cast hollowpoints should only be used on non edible varmints be they 2 or 4 legged.

[waksupi]

I'm with the rest. No hollow points for anything bigger than varmints. What you had is known as boolit failure.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
It does not sound like the bullet failed. It killed the deer.
It just did not do it in the way you expected.
But I agree if you want an any angle kill, a wide medplat is the way to go.:Fire::Fire:

[357maximum]

I have had quite a few "boolit and bullet failures" that still killed the deer. I learned something from each one and adjusted accordingly to the best of my ability.

[maglvr]

WDWW + WFN @ 1300 fps.
Over 1300 fps you are defeating your own goal. ;)

[btroj]

For more penetration a heavier bullet might help also.
I am also with the others- no hollow point. If you were willing to wait for strictly a broadside, behind the front leg shot a hollowpoint would be fine.

[winelover]

Nix the HP. I try to use the softest alloy that will give acceptable accuracy with minimal leading. You don't need velocity to harvest deer. I had better preformance on deer by dropping the velocity below 1200 fps with my Marlin 1894 Carbine in 44 Magnum.

Winelover

[stubert]

That boolit is listed as a 255 grain, How did you end up with it weighing 270 gr. after you holow pointed it? Scale off?

[44man]

Wonderful answers guys.
Too fast needs a softer boolit, too slow also benefits.
This has been very strange to me with all the deer I have killed, that a hard boolit going too fast only poked small holes. Until I lost several deer with double lung hits and examined those I found, I also thought faster would be better. I have learned just the right amount of expansion is needed. Too much or too fast is not good and boolit weight indeed helps penetration.
I would not water drop for the velocity of 1650 to 1700fps and would add some pure lead to the WW metal.
You can use very hard at about 1300 to 1350 fps or below to about 1100 fps. Then expansion starts to improve things as it does when velocity is too fast.
It is very strange when high velocity does not kill good because the boolit quit working inside the animal.
I am still not expert and it is a work in progress.

[leadman]

With ACWW and the 310gr Lee I got no expansion on a broadside shot on a big cow elk. The boolit did not fail though 'cuz the elk died.

[30hrrtt]

Stubert

I mixed the weight of the hollow point. My cast with that boolit goes 270 -272 depending on the alloy I use. Most that cast with that boolit get 270 with ww.

Hollow pointed it is 265. It is not much of a hollow point. It was an 1/8" hole only about an 1/8" deep. I only wanted a little expansion.

I will figure out the picture thing today and post some.

[gasboffer]

I killed a lot of deer years ago with a .35 Rem. Started using Lyman 358156 HP, and was getting a lot of deer that I had to trail pretty long distances.
Switched to Lyman 358156 Solid point and the need for second shots dropped dramatically.
Clyde

[1Shirt]

Good thread, lot of wisdom based on experiance. Sure beats theory from the individual who only has "book learnin" on the subject!
1Shirt!:coffee:

[Larry Gibson]

The HP'd cast bullet did it's job and killed the deer just fine. 18" of penetration through meat muscle and bone is quite sufficient for any angle shot except perhaps a Texas heart shot which I do not take. You wanted a little expansion and you got a little expansion....and a dead deer. Your bullet penetrated completly through the deer on a difficult angle for all but the hide on the off side. I've seen many high powdered jacketed bullets from rifles do no better. I doubt, based on experience with that bullet, that the same bullet non HP'd on the same shot would not have "killed" the deer any better. I also doubt a 300+ gr hard cast bullet at a lower velocity would not have "killed" the deer any better either. The reason is the viltals were not hit or not hit well, all that was done was to break the deer down with a broken back or neck. That's why the second shot was necessary.

44man is correct, if anything needs changing the bullet needs to be softer because the velocity is to high for the 44 from a rifle. I've killed lots of deer with HP'd cast bullets out of rifles with .30, .31, 8mm, 35, 44 and 45 calibers. I've used the 429244 on numerous deer from both revolver and rifle. (M94 with 16" barrel). I cast them of WW+2% / lead at 50/50. Mine also weight 270 gr and 260-265 gr when HP'd with the Forster 1/8" tool. I push them at 1400+ fps out of my revolers and 1645 fps out of the M94.

I've always had much better and quicker kills with HP'd cast bullets, the same as you get quicker kills with SP'd jacketed that expand well with rilfes. Do not be too quick to misjudge the effectiveness based on one deer, especially since the deer was killed. The need for a second shot on game that does not hit any vital area effectively is neither fish nor fowl. Only hits in the vital areas will kill real quickly. I always aim for the vital heart/lung area but am always ready to shoot a second shot if I can whether or not the 1st shot was good.

No cartridge or bullet of any type from a handgun cartridge, even if fired out of a rifle, can guarentee a one shot kill DRT, epsecially if the vital area is not hit well. I suggest you stick with that bullet, that load, HP it the same but just change the alloy to a softer one and put the next shots through the vital area of the deer. Not criticising you or the shot BTW so please don't take it that way. I'm just stating what occured and why. The bullet was not really at fault, it just wasn't place well. That happens to all of us, be ready for a 2nd shot.

Larry Gibson

[lead chucker]

Im with Larry, a well placed hp makes a big hole for lots of blood to spray out.

[runfiverun]

Lloyd uses 5/5/90 alloy for those that wondered.

what larry and 44 man have said pretty much mirror my findings also.
i switched to just plain cast rnfp's after a hornady xtp failed to open for me, it was just a matter of figuring out my alloy and velocity.
i use the ww's and soft mixed at 3-1 with about 1.3% tin total. for a 1.3/2.2/96.5 alloy.
i usually push them from my leverguns in the neighborhood of 1400 fps.

if using a 30-30 or similar i do something different.
for littlegirls 7.65 argie, and my oldest girls 7.7 we use a homemade tubing half jacketed soft nosed [same alloy as for the leverguns] boolit of about 175 grs at just over 2,000 fps.
it acts just like a nosler partition just in slow motion. and will punch through shoulder bones, and stops expanding at the tubing where i canellure it.

anyways what you do has to be tested and balanced to work as you want it to.

[41 mag fan]

Stubert

I mixed the weight of the hollow point. My cast with that boolit goes 270 -272 depending on the alloy I use. Most that cast with that boolit get 270 with ww.

Hollow pointed it is 265. It is not much of a hollow point. It was an 1/8" hole only about an 1/8" deep. I only wanted a little expansion.

I will figure out the picture thing today and post some.


Go to photo bucket and then you can post your pic. It'll automatically shrink it so you don't have to do it.

[x101airborne]

Your hollow point sounds to me more akin to a cup point. Being that shallow, and even with the nose fragmented off, you are still getting good weight retention. I would look at nose deformation and shank expansion. Did the shank go from .430 to .449 from impact? Although some would consider that to be null expansion, I consider ANY expansion to be expansion. A pure lino boolit will fracture and act more like a shotgun blast than a penetrating boolit, so I would not worry about the lino boolit idea. I dont know how big your deer are, but it does sound like under-penetration to me. Our little deer do not usually hold a boolit that large. At least, I have never found one.

[30hrrtt]

Thanks for the replies.

Larry - I do know it wasn't a good shot and said it was high in my first post. I didn't mention killing power but only talked about penetration as I didn't expect to recover it. After looking at the replies, I would come to the following conclusions. First is that the hollow point worked well, thanks Larry. It expanded quickly and did make a large wound chanel. One of the fragments broke off about 6 -7 inches in after hitting bone and the other about 10" in again hitting bone. I think of about 50 deer I killed (I know a small number compared to some), this was the longest path in a deer in solid muscle and bone.

The deer was close and running as are most deer I shoot at. I don't have the opportunity to wait for the right shot, they never happen when I'm driving them. With either hp or solid, I can slow the boolits down some. This shot was about 25 yards away and that is about average when I'm moving them. Higher velocity for longer range is irrelavant.

I wouldn't want a bigger hp cavity given how well the small one worked and the weight retention. I will try a little softer alloy.

I can go with the solid for greater penetration. I need to decide what I want.

I think the download worked this time. The shank of the recovered bullet was not distorted. When I include the weight of the two fragments I found, it was virtually the 265 I started with.

Looking forward to doing some milk jug tests based on the above recommendations.