Winter project (311284/Krag)

[plain old dave]

As I have said a couple times before, this winter's project is duplicating the 1902 Palma team's practice load for the .30 Army (aka 30-40 Krag). From what I have been able to discover, they used the 311284 with GCs and an obsolete powder called Sharpshooter. Worked like a champ out to 600+ yards, and Project 2 next year is Krag in National Match Course shooting. Is IMR4198 close to Sharpshooter? More importantly, is a Krag suited charge of 4198 going to fill the case? I have always been a fan of bulky powders as they make an overcharge VERY obvious, as well as give more consistent ignition. If 4198 will require a filler, what is a better choice to 1) fill the case and 2) stay supersonic at 600?

[gnoahhh]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Sharpshooter akin to our modern SR-4759? I recall reading in one of Phil Sharpe's books that the old DuPont SR-80 replaced it, which was superceded in turn by SR-4759. Regardless, if I were attempting that honorable pursuit with a .30/40 Krag, I would certainly give SR-4759 a try first. It's my favorite powder for midrange loads in medium cases with cast bullets, and is bulky enough to allow easy powder height verification by eye.

[Johnk454]

Dave,

I can't help with Sharpshooter, but I can offer my own experience with the Krag.

Lyman 311284, cast with WW + 2% tin, water dropped. Loaded over 50grs of WC872 fills the case and gives about 1840fps. QuickTarget agrees with my Lyman 48 sight settings and claims a remaining velocity of 1234fps at 600yds. Still supersonic, even if only 100fps or so. I know it shoots very well at that range.

Not much direct help to your question, but a bit more data to consider.

[frnkeore]

I believe Sharpshooter was produced by Hercules and not Dupont. Yes, 4759 replaced SR-80 but, I like Dave believe Sharpshooter was about 4198 speed. Sharpshooter seemed to have it's own issues, possiblely errosion.

Dave, do you know the velocity of the practice loads? If you want gallery loads, too, I have the mold for that one.

Frank

[gnoahhh]

You're right Frank. I looked it up in Sharpe's handloading book last night. A memory is a terrible thing to trust!

[plain old dave]

Dave, do you know the velocity of the practice loads? If you want gallery loads, too, I have the mold for that one.

Frank

Don't have velocity info; given this was 1901-02 they probably loaded to match sight settings to issue ball as closely as possible. Not that I'm trying THAT.

Other issue: Ye Olde Krag's bore diameter is .310 and change (@ .3103 or so). .310s or .311s for cast to start with? Rifle has always given good results with .308 Sierra/Hornady/Nosler of choice. Better with RNs, but good with everything.

[Char-Gar]

If you are looking for a slow bulky powder that won't over pressure the old Krag, but still produce velocities in the 1.9K fps area with 311284, and top notch accuracy, then take a look at WC872. This is a very slow ball powder developed for the 20mm Vulcan round. You can't get enough in the case to get you into trouble.

Drop in 50 grains through a long tube to settle it, and seat your bullet. This will be a slightly compressed load, which is necessary for a good burn with this powder. Try it with and without a magnum primer and see which does best for you. This load will kill deer grave yard dead and give target grade accuracy as far as you can to shoot.

As always, proper bullet fit, bullet lube and alloy temper are critical.

[plain old dave]

WC872. Hmm... Sounds interesting. I'm an Aviation Ordinanceman, and can appreciate the irony of using the powder in 20 mike mike in a civilian application. Drop tube and my classic Lee Hammer Loader and I'm in business... The Hammer Loader is old enough to have Norma and Hi-Vel data included. Can you tell I'm not much on innovation? :D

[curator]

My experience with the old Sharpshooter is that it was more like the modern IMR 3031. I "inherited" an 8 pound jug of original Sharpshooter in the mid-1960s. I used the whole thing loading .45-70 for my 1888 Trapdoor. The loads were very similar to the Lyman handbook IMR 3031 loads. I also got several pounds of "Lightning" ( li'l donuts) that was almost exactly like SR 4759. Old loads for the Krag were appropriate when the Krag wasn't so old. We are now pushing 110 years--why take a chance. Go with modern loading manuals and keep pressures within recognized limits? I regularly Shoot the Lyman #311284 over 16 grains of Alliant 2400 with excellent success and accuracy.

[frnkeore]

Phil Sharps book lists the max load of S'Shooter with the 172 BT at 25.9, 2130 fps, 42,000 CUP. His 3031 load is 38.5, 2330 fps, no pressure given. Most modern loadings of 3031 are 180 gr, 39.0 gr, 2400 fps, 42,000. Lighting gives loads that are closer to 3031 at 32.0 gr, 2140, 42,000.

Regarding the practice loads with the 311284, the following might be one. Again taken from Sharp.

207 gr, GC
23.2 gr S'Shooter, 1910 fps, 42,000
Better ones in my opinion are,
33.8 gr, Hi Vel 2, 2130 fps, 42,000
You can subitute 3031 for HV2 in most cases, start at 30 gr.
23.2 gr, 2400, 1825, 42,000
If you want to run those 42,000 loads, reduce 10% and work up.

This is a practice load that I've seen in some old publications and I think makes more since. It was generally shot at around 1600 - 1800 fps.
The 311413 was a "squib load" (practice) bullet. It's still very common on Ebay at $40 or less.

19.0 gr, 2400, 1685 fps, 23,500 CUP
14.8 gr, Unique, 1700 fps, 34,000
My favorite load with any cast bullet is.
18.5 gr, 4759, and gives 16 - 1700 fps with 165 - 210 gr bullets.

My 1898 is also a .310 groove diameter. Most 311413 cast .313 - 4, sized .311 - 3 they will shoot very well.

Hope that helps,

Frank