.223 Help

[ralph029]

Howdy boys and girls!
Let me start this whole thing off by saying I do not own a chronograph...
I'm in the process of working up .223 loads for my Lewis Machine and Tool gas piston. I am casting the Saeco #62221 60 grain spire point.
I developed three cautious loads using IMR 4198 (this has been an excellent powder for me with Hornady boat tails).
While accuracy was fine, my rifle wouldn't cycle. Not enough umph to make the whole thing work like it should.
I know that I can adjust the piston but, I want to develop an accurate load first and then mess with the piston.
My current non-cast reload moves a 52 grain HPBT about 3200 fps and produces pressures around 49,000. This is pretty hot for even gas check boolit.
What recipes are you folks using and what are their numbers (if you have any).
Thanks for your help.:drinks:

[Larry Gibson]

Check out this thread; http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=135309 and also do a search as there's lots of information already posted. In the mentioned thread ignore the banter as it's usual but there is some good info. Then come back with specific questions regarding your expectations for .223 cast bullet loads out of the AR. BTW; 3200 fps with cast and accuracy is perhaps not a good expectation.

Larry Gibson

[ralph029]

I've been through that thread and was only able to pull two workable loads out of it. Like I said, 3200 fps is too hot even for a gas check. Also I do not have access to a chronograph so, I was trying to pull from a vast amount of experience as a solid starting point rather than have another trip to the range like I did today. I don't mind pulling bullets apart but it just seems so damn unproductive.

[1Shirt]

IMO if you can get a load that functions well and runs at or about the 2600 fps level you ought to be satisfied. You may be able to do better than that, but to me that would be a realistic goal that if attained you could tweek if desired. I would suggest that the harder you are BH wise the better. I would be looking for BH upwards of 26-28 or better.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[Larry Gibson]

With 4895 or Varget start at 17 gr.

With AA4350 start at 20 gr.

With H4831SC, RL19 or RL22 start at 22 gr.

Use a 1/3-1/2 gr dacron filler until loading density gets above 80%.

Work up in 1/2 gr increments until functioning is 100%. You don't mention the twist of your ARs barrel but if 7 - 9" twist you will find the best accuracy to be at functional reliability. You can find useable accuracy above that though. However, the accuracy I've gotten with those twists at 2600 fps is hardly what I find satisfactory. With My 12" twist AR (and numerous other 12" twist ARs and M16A1s) I find M193 accuracy is achieveable upwards of 2300 - 2400 fps. However, please give it whorl shooting upwards of 2800 fps (acheiveable with 4895 and Varget with your cast bullet) to staisfy your self and other who claim accuracy at such. Let us know the results of your accuracy at 200 yards with those HV loads. We'd all be interested in your results.

Larry Gibson

[ralph029]

With 4895 or Varget start at 17 gr.

With AA4350 start at 20 gr.

With H4831SC, RL19 or RL22 start at 22 gr.

Use a 1/3-1/2 gr dacron filler until loading density gets above 80%.

Work up in 1/2 gr increments until functioning is 100%. You don't mention the twist of your ARs barrel but if 7 - 9" twist you will find the best accuracy to be at functional reliability. You can find useable accuracy above that though. However, the accuracy I've gotten with those twists at 2600 fps is hardly what I find satisfactory. With My 12" twist AR (and numerous other 12" twist ARs and M16A1s) I find M193 accuracy is achieveable upwards of 2300 - 2400 fps. However, please give it whorl shooting upwards of 2800 fps (acheiveable with 4895 and Varget with your cast bullet) to staisfy your self and other who claim accuracy at such. Let us know the results of your accuracy at 200 yards with those HV loads. We'd all be interested in your results.

Larry Gibson

Perfect. Thank you sir. This is where I what I was hoping for. My LMT is a 1:7". I have never used Dacron filler before and will do some searching on the board for information about that. Does it really make a difference?
I do have a Trijicon on her but not magnified and my old eyes... Well you know the rest of that sentence so, I'm not sure about 200 yrds.

[ralph029]

IMO if you can get a load that functions well and runs at or about the 2600 fps level you ought to be satisfied. You may be able to do better than that, but to me that would be a realistic goal that if attained you could tweek if desired. I would suggest that the harder you are BH wise the better. I would be looking for BH upwards of 26-28 or better.
1Shirt!:coffee:

I will have to play around with my lead recipe and get the hardness up there. Thank you.

[kbstenberg]

Ralf could I ask a related question that Larry or 1Shirt would be knowledgeable on?
Gentlemen how much protection goes the filler material give to the base of a cast bullet? If say a cast bullet gives good accuracy till say 1100fps without a check. By adding the filler will the bullet without a GC be able to shoot to some level higher than 1100 fps.
Kevin

[1Shirt]

In my opinion, a filler adds little if any protection to the base of the blt. What it does is fill the void between the base of the blt and the powder. I find this to be a factor in accuracy. I am sure that some disagree, but I have been using fillers for many years with slower burning powders and cast rifle loads. Have not tried all of Larry's recommendations, but do like Varget, and I started I believe with 17-18 gr. with 225646 in my Savages. Keep us posted on your results.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[Larry Gibson]

ralf029

Good luck, the 7" twist is the most difficult to deal with. I did get useable groups equal to ball ammo with the cast at upwards of 1700 - 1800 fps. Only the slower powders give positive functioning, without altering the gas system, at that velocity level.

kbstenberg

The filler will shield a PB'd bullet from the heat to a certain degree. It may also prevent base distorion to a degree. A distorted base on exit from a muzle will have the same bad effect on accuracy as a bad/uneven muzzle crown. How much higher will depend on the bullet design, weight, alloy, fit in throat, fit in case neck, fit of case neck to chamber neck, obturation of case neck and accelleration rate. The only way to know is through testing with your rifle, your cast bullet and your loads.

Larry Gibson

[stubshaft]

+1 - On what Larry said. I have not been able to get decent accuracy out of my 1 in 7 unless velocities are low, even with pure Lino boolits water dropped.

[runfiverun]

the filler is there to insure ignition consistency.
it also makes the case smaller so you gotta back things down and re=work the load.
i'd back it down to where larry suggested or two full grains to be close to the original load.

[ralph029]

I just wanted to apologize to everyone on this thread. I have no idea what happened the first time I "pulled the trigger" on the search function. I have since "reloaded" a new search and came away with all this info typed, by you guys, 22,000 time before. I do know how to and, and adamant about, using the search function prior to wasting everyone's time. With that being said, thank you for the responses. Let me buy everyone a round :drinks:

Now I do have a question/comment about expectations from this load. The AR platform is not a varmint platform. It seems to me that considering it's intended application, accuracy at 50 yards should be what we are striving to perfect. There are platforms designed to reach out to 200 yards. Thoughts? Comments?

[mpmarty]

Heck even my 7.62 AK holds a couple of inches at two hundred yards. As said, only accurate rifles are interesting (or worth messing with) IMHO. :)

[x101airborne]

Welcome. No need to apologize, if we had anything better to do, we wouldn't be here in the first place.LOL

As far as your accuracy expectations, I test at 50 yards, but the proof is in the range. Many factors get added in there that may not be noticable at 50 yards. Now if you only really use your AR out to 100 yards or so, then sure, accuracy at 50 is fine. I shoot my favorite AR (of the 7 I own) with an ACOG out to 600 yards and can make piggy's do the dance all day long. And admittedly, not to that distance with cast, but still, the AR is CAPABLE of extreme accuracy. It is all in what you want to do with it.

You have gotten some great advice. I wish you luck in your quest.

[ralph029]

Hey x101airborne,
Your signature is one of the best I've seen! Cheers.

[ralph029]

Some initial testing results. First off let me say that I've got old eyes and I drink way too much coffee so, I can't see and I shake. Not making any excuses, just putting things into perspective. My LMT is not scoped. I do have a Trijicon Red Dot on it but it is not amplified. My LMT is a 1:7. These are at 50 yards. I decided to use Varget and Benchmark powders. My starting loads were 17.0 with the Varget and 19.0 with the Benchmark. I loaded 10 rounds of each increasing at 0.5 grains of powder for each load. So, 17.0, 17.5, 18.0, and 18.5 for the Varget. 19.0, 19.5, 20.0, and 20.5 with the Benchmark. I used a Saeco 62221 60 grain Spire Point resized to .224. I trimmed all my cases to 1.750 and seated the boolit at 2.250. I did not use Dacron as I did not have any. I used WLL Carnauba Red and hand dipped afterwards in Rooster Jacket twice with 24 hours in between dippings and reloading. I had zero leading at the completion of the tests.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c153/ralph029/Boolits/LMT100.jpg

What I'm showing here is the lands stop marking the boolit at .130. I wish I could have gotten the first ring closer to the rifling but then the only lube ring would have been exposed.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c153/ralph029/Boolits/LMT200-1.jpg

Just an idea as it sits next to a 52 grain Hornady HPBT

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c153/ralph029/Boolits/LMT300.jpg

Loaded in a Magpul

I started with the Varget. I got no rounds of any load configuration to cycle my LMT gas piston. I will continue to work with the Varget upon my next return to the range.

I moved on the the Benchmark. I had 40 positive cycles through the LMT. Not one jam or misfeed.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c153/ralph029/Boolits/LMT190.jpg

19.0 grains. All 10 rounds accounted for.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c153/ralph029/Boolits/LMT195.jpg

19.5 grains. I had two flyers but the bulk of the group held well. All 10 rounds accounted for.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c153/ralph029/Boolits/LMT200.jpg

20.0 grains. I had two flyers but the group started spreading quite a bit. Only 9 rounds accounted for.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c153/ralph029/Boolits/LMT205.jpg

20.5 grains. I had three flyers. Only 9 rounds accounted for.