H&R NEF Handi SB1 & SB2 Frames There is a Difference!

[Suo Gan]

If you are going to get a new H&R or NEF in a handi and are not totally up on them, you might be wooed by the great prices of a 357 Mag or 44 Mag rifle. Be aware that if the price is low it might be because it has the SB1 frame. This is a weaker frame and you can only use it for muzzleloader or shotgun barrels (and the 44 mag, 357 mag, and 500 S&W).

It cost me $23 as a 10% restocking fee because of my ignorance. Thought I would pass it along.

This is what I bought, and it clearly says SB1 on it so I guess that was my bad. Bud would not budge off their policy. Not a huge expense I guess in the scheme of things, just a lesson learned. I tried to change my order less than 10 hours later...no matter. I placed the order yesterday evening, and tried to change it this morning...
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/36_262/products_id/52891

I was buying the rifle for a young relative to use. I thought he could start out with the 357, and then we could get him a couple other barrels for varmints and deer later.

It is good not to be ignorant I guess!

[Catshooter]

Suo,

Well, at least it was a cheap lesson. You can't buy experience, but you sure do pay for it.

The SB1 frame will also work with the .30-30.

I don't think that the .500 would though. I could be wrong but the last thing that round could be called is low pressure. It also has a pretty large case head so bolt thrust would be pretty high.


Cat

[cdet69]

It can make one go crazy trying to remember the number of frames they have.

[Swampman]

The SB1 frame will handle quite a few cartridges but H&R won't install anything other than .357, .44 Mag, muzzleloader, and shotgun barrels on them. SB1 is cast iron and SB2 is steel.

[frkelly74]

357 could be a lot of fun. You should go for it.

[Suo Gan]

I found one in 30-30 for a good price. I will send the frame off to H&R to get a 357 barrel after a bit.

After four or five years of properly seasoning the barrels with cast boolits, then the kid can have at it!

[BAGTIC]

I have a factory original H&R .357 Maximum. Really like it. I would buy more of the pistol or other rimmed calibers if they were available with the SB2 frames. I don't have any uses for the SB1 frames and don't see the sense in buying a gun I don't need or want just to get an SB2 frame and then have to pay extra for the barrel I do want plus S&H for sending a new unfired gun back to the factory to have it "fixed".


Been looking at the new CVA Scout for a .44 Caliber.

[nanuk]

BAGTIC: you could probabaly buy the rifle and sell the barrel to finance the barrel you want

[Suo Gan]

I have a factory original H&R .357 Maximum. Really like it. I would buy more of the pistol or other rimmed calibers if they were available with the SB2 frames. I don't have any uses for the SB1 frames and don't see the sense in buying a gun I don't need or want just to get an SB2 frame and then have to pay extra for the barrel I do want plus S&H for sending a new unfired gun back to the factory to have it "fixed".


Been looking at the new CVA Scout for a .44 Caliber.

It is kind of a strange procedure I will admit that.

A lot of companies seem to have done things right in the past, and in time start doing things backwards. I thought it was supposed to work the other way. But being an American, that is pretty much how the entire country works.

[nanuk]

Suo Gan:

Follow the MONEY!

it all started with a Vision from Henry Ford

[frkelly74]

I would have thought it started with Eli Whitney. Make em fast - make em cheap. Cheaper is always better.

[Suo Gan]

Check this out. A $6,000 Handi. Not in stock right now though.
http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/handi-rifle-combo-72541-rem444-marlin-mossy-break-stock-blue-finish-p-124895.html

[OBXPilgrim]

Dang, I've got a 444 Handi - seems to like it should be worth $3000, huh?

[nanuk]

I would have thought it started with Eli Whitney. Make em fast - make em cheap. Cheaper is always better.

I thought it was Ford who said something like, "Sell the cars cheap enough for everyone to have one, and get RICH off the Parts"

[badgeredd]

The SB1 frame will handle quite a few cartridges but H&R won't install anything other than .357, .44 Mag, muzzleloader, and shotgun barrels on them. SB1 is cast iron and SB2 is steel.

Not true,,,cast steel would be appropriate; and forged steel would be the newer SB2 frame.

Ruger uses investment casting in a good number of their parts also. Different processes and steels give different capabilities. To my knowledge cast iron hasn't been used in firearms for over a century.

Edd

[nanuk]

so can someone tell me the difference between "Forged" and "Cast"?

[tacklebury]

casting is:

to give a shape to (a substance) by pouring in liquid or plastic form into a mold and letting harden without pressure <cast steel>

Forging is:

to form (as metal) by heating and hammering or
to form (metal) by a mechanical or hydraulic press with or without heat

*quotes from Webster's Dictionary

Casting allows for loose microcrystaline structure and can have significant flaws which are invisible to the eye internally on a part. Also, dross or impurities in castings have often made them weak.

Forging parts forces their metals into alignment, typically making a stronger part that doesn't have chances of impurities or weaknesses. That isn't to say it's a perfect process, ie automated hammerforging, but it's typically much stronger than cast only.

Newer Metal Injection Molding (MIM) processes and sintering are similar to casting, but slightly stronger as they are injected under pressure and have more consistency and less chance of issues internally.

[nanuk]

thanks Tacklebury

[BAGTIC]

I got it in writing from H&R that both models are made from the same metal. The difference is that the SB2 receives a special heat treatment that makes it stronger.

[oldred]

I think both are cast (cast steel not cast iron) and forging a part like that would be a neat trick. Nothing at all wrong with a properly done steel casting (think T/C) and the strength of a stress relieved and tempered casting can easily approach a forging. Castings are commonly used where very high strength is needed and the part shape does not lend itself to the forging process, I suppose some folks get the mistaken idea that steel castings are inherently inferior due to the nature of iron castings.

[SquirrelHollow]

I bought a Handi Rifle in .444 Marlin, not long ago (SB-2). Since the biggest reason for buying it, was to get additional barrels, I checked into availability and requirements before my purchase.

The end result is an action I can put any barrel on, except rimfires.

All four actions are castings.
The SS-1 is for rimfire barrels only.
The SB-1 is for pistol cartridges, the muzzle loader barrel, and most shotgun barrels; but not rimfires.
The SB-2 is for rifle cartridges, and can have any other barrel fitted, except rimfire barrels.
The SB-2-10 is used only for certain 12 ga rifled slug barrels and 10 ga barrels. Nothing else can be fitted to it (by H&R).
The .500 S&W is no longer built on the SB-1 frame. Too many of the SB-1 receivers got beaten up by the cartridge. Now, it is only offered on the SB-2 frame.

But... that only applies to current production. Older models can be found in other combinations. And, older models can still be found with ejectors for rimfire, pistol, and rifle cartridges; where newer production only has extractors, except for shotgun barrels.

[Papa Jack]

If you are going to get a new H&R or NEF in a handi and are not totally up on them, you might be wooed by the great prices of a 357 Mag or 44 Mag rifle. Be aware that if the price is low it might be because it has the SB1 frame. This is a weaker frame and you can only use it for muzzleloader or shotgun barrels (and the 44 mag, 357 mag, and 500 S&W).

It cost me $23 as a 10% restocking fee because of my ignorance. Thought I would pass it along.

This is what I bought, and it clearly says SB1 on it so I guess that was my bad. Bud would not budge off their policy. Not a huge expense I guess in the scheme of things, just a lesson learned. I tried to change my order less than 10 hours later...no matter. I placed the order yesterday evening, and tried to change it this morning...
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/36_262/products_id/52891

I was buying the rifle for a young relative to use. I thought he could start out with the 357, and then we could get him a couple other barrels for varmints and deer later.

It is good not to be ignorant I guess!

You guys may like to check out the NEF website for the difference in the frames.

http://www.hr1871.com/Support/accessoryProgram.asp

Also check out Grey Beard outdoors for all your "Handi Needs".... "PJ"

[jsshort2302]

Suo,

Well, at least it was a cheap lesson. You can't buy experience, but you sure do pay for it.

The SB1 frame will also work with the .30-30.

I don't think that the .500 would though. I could be wrong but the last thing that round could be called is low pressure. It also has a pretty large case head so bolt thrust would be pretty high.


Cat
Are you sure the SB1 can be fitted to a 30-30 rifle? I got one in 357 and the BARREL was stamped SB2, so I thought I was good, but the frame is SB2 and I want the 30-30 barrel. Called H&R and the said no.

[jsshort2302]

Oops, said I had sb2, but have sb1 frame, 357 sb2 barrel mounted to it. Catshooter said in a previous post that a 30-30 barrel could be fitted to a sb1 frame, is this true? I contacted h&r and they said no.

[BAGTIC]

I thought it was Ford who said something like, "Sell the cars cheap enough for everyone to have one, and get RICH off the Parts"
Sell ink jet printers at cost and get rich on the refill cartridges or do as I do and refill them at 95% savings. I am still using cartridges over 10 years old.

[BAGTIC]

I think both are cast (cast steel not cast iron) and forging a part like that would be a neat trick. Nothing at all wrong with a properly done steel casting (think T/C) and the strength of a stress relieved and tempered casting can easily approach a forging. Castings are commonly used where very high strength is needed and the part shape does not lend itself to the forging process, I suppose some folks get the mistaken idea that steel castings are inherently inferior due to the nature of iron castings.

The barrels for the 120mm tank guns begin as cast hollow tubes. The barrels are loaded to higher pressures than any small arms cartridge.

[Catshooter]

jsshort,

These days Remington/NEF only puts the 30-30 barrel on their SB2. But before Remington bought them it was different. Go to the Graybeard Outdoors site and check out their H&R forum. Chock full of good data.


Cat

[Tackleberry41]

I bought an extra H&R recently, had a 45-70, you would think they could use the SB1 frame, but I guess you never know what somebody might try to put in it. A SB1 would be fine for standard pressure loads, but not the heavy 'magnums' the SB2 45-70 is rated for. The new one is 22hornet had an interest in that already. It was used, so not bad on the price, but also had black synthetic furniture, I guess a 'varmint' version with a longer fore end on it. I wanted the furniture for my 45-70, checked the barrels do work on either one. And now have an extra frame I can send back for more barrels vs sending my only one.

You want complicated, have a look at Rossi. They have probably a dozen frames. Place around the corner always has several in the rack. Theres a large and small shotgun frame, they had a 410/22, hey cool I could stick the barrel on the 20ga/44mag I have, nope. 410 is narrower, vs H&R just making the barrel really thick. There is I guess a pistol caliber frame, then rifle caliber frame. They dont seem to have a specific rimfire, they just offset the barrel so it will work with rimfire, actually a decent idea, dont imagine Rossi came up with it. Now if they could just make a straight barrel.

Guess a decent machinist could take a H&R stub and thread it offset to use rimfire in a standard frame.

[cheggie]

To get a .357 handi with an SB2 frame, I bought an SB2 rifle, sold the barrel, and sent the frame to H&R for refit in .357. I wanted to be able to add rifle barrels later, so it has cost a little more time and money to get what I want. .357 barrels cannot be found on the used market right now!

[CastingFool]

I wish H&R would offer a Handi rifle chambered for 45LC.

[seaboltm]

I wish H&R would offer a Handi rifle chambered for 45LC.

Now you have me thinking: what about an SB2 Handi rebored to 405 Winchester by JES?????

[DeanWinchester]

I wish H&R would offer a Handi rifle chambered for 45LC.


They did! It was called the Classic Carbine. I deepened the chamber on mine to .454 Casull and it is the best money I've spent in YEARS.


http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd371/Reloadingfool/pix262955223_zpsce4f87ed.jpg

[CastingFool]

Now you have me thinking: what about an SB2 Handi rebored to 405 Winchester by JES?????

In my area of Michigan, they have just legalized the use of straight walled rifle cartridges for deer. They must be at least .35 caliber and no longer than 1.6 inches. Although I reload for other straight walled cartridges, the 45LC is the one I have the most experience with.

[leadman]

The pre SB1 and SB2 frames were cast iron and had casehardening colors on the frames. I still have a couple of the Huntsman 58 caliber muzzleloaders. They were available in 30-30. I had one that had lightening cuts along the top of the frame and rear of the barrels. Had a 30-30 barrel and a 20ga. Snap on fore-end made barrel changes fast. I also had 2 Shikaris, one in 45-70 and one in 44 mag. The 44 mag was later rechambered to 445 Super mag. I had a 22 Hornet and missed one in 22 Jet.
Sold the combo gun to my buddy and he handloaded some high pressure 30-30 for it and the primers beat the firing pin hole just about shut. He had .006" case expansion just up from the rim!

I have had 3 of the newer guns and the weight has increased so much just don't care for them anymore.

[rwadley]

Were there any NEF 500 S&W Handi Rifles built on a SB2 frame? I saw one that piqued my interest, but it was built in 2005. I am worried that it was built on SB1 frame. How can I tell without having the seller remove the buttstock? The barrel doesn't say SB2 and neither does the frame.321194

[jdgabbard]

Were there any NEF 500 S&W Handi Rifles built on a SB2 frame? I saw one that piqued my interest, but it was built in 2005. I am worried that it was built on SB1 frame. How can I tell without having the seller remove the buttstock? The barrel doesn't say SB2 and neither does the frame.321194

I think looking at the rear of the frame is the only guaranteed way of telling the difference between the two. I could be wrong. I looked into this same question a while back, but there doesn't seem to be a different answer.

[P Flados]

Here is a link to the old GBO thread that includes photos of the rear of the receiver with the stock removed.

The high pressure rated SB-2 has a distinct "skeletonized" rear surface.

The SB-1 most commonly has no openings (as shown), but I remember discussion that sometimes there casting voids visible.

https://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,80979.msg498556.html#msg498556

[Jedman]

The 500 S&W definitely came on a SB 2 receiver. It’s a very hi pressure round and has a huge case head that makes it more important that it stays on a SB 2.
I have a 50-70 that’s on a SB 1 but the loads I shoot are mostly under 20 K pressure the 500 factory loads are mostly 60 K pressure.
Jedman