Lee 180 and 200 gr Cast

[timtonya]

Does anyone have any load information using H4895 for a 308 bolt rifle?

THANKS

[runfiverun]

man i hate to do this but many manuals do have it even the lee book shows data for it.
but i would go directly to 28 grs and work from there.
a filler will definately improve groups.
and the coldest brisance primer you got is the one i'd work with.

[Larry Gibson]

runfiverun is spot on. With both bullets (assuming they are GC'd?) start with 28 gr, use a 1/2 - 3/4 gr dacron filler. Work up in 1/2 gr increments shooting 7 - 10 shot test groups for accuracy at 100 yards. You'll get the best accuracy somewhere between the 28 gr and 31 gr.

Larry Gibson

[timtonya]

Thanks. I wasn't sure if they'd be listed. They will be cc but do I have to use a filler?

[1Shirt]

You do not have to use a filler. In my experiance you might get better accuracy with a filler, but you would have to test both ways and go with what works best for you.
1Shirt!!:coffee:

[Larry Gibson]

I'd venture is 95 to 1 that you will get better and more consistent accuracy over various ranges and conditions with the dacron filler.

If you don't want to use a filler then a faster burning powder can be used but velocities will be lower or a slow burning powder that give 80% loading density yet ignites easily and consistently.

Larry Gibson

[timtonya]

Any suggestions on powders?

[Kraschenbirn]

I've tried H4895 (w/dacron fill) in both my .308s and achieved what I would consider "acceptable" results...like 2"-2 1/2" 100-yd groups...but have found that my McGowan-barreled M700 likes IMR4198 (also w/dacron fill) an awful lot better. A couple weeks ago, shooting off sandbags, I put 10 RCBS 30-165-Sil boolits into a 3" group at 200M from that rifle.

Bill

[MBTcustom]

I thought filler was to be used when all else fails, but Larry Gibson and runfiverun came right out of the gate with filler recommendations. Can you guys enlighten me? Was it the Hodgdon powder, or the .308? or do y'all do the filler with any bottle neck case?
I am very curious now!

[Larry Gibson]

Using a filler has to do with loading density, powder positioning and ignition consistency.

Many loads in many cases with faster powders give consistent ignition because the powder ignites easliy and burns uniformly at lower psi's. With those loads a filler is generally not needed nor recommended. Most all of my Bullseye and Unique loads fit this catagory.

The "slower" fast powders like 2400, 4227, 4198, 4759 and 5744 do not need a filler if the bullet weight and load is such that those powders burn quickly and efficiently. If using lighter weight for cartridge bullets these powders many times benifity from the use of the filler.

Medium or slow burning powders with a loading density of 80% or less almost always benifit from a filler. The ignition will be much more uniform and the burning will also be more consistent. This will result in better shot to shot uniformity with much less velocity spreads over a number of rounds. Accuracy will be better as a result.

Severe up or down angled shooting in loads with less than 80% loading density will have a very wide variation of velocity if a filler is not used to hold the powder in position in the case. With the subject cartridge of this thread, the .308W, as much as 300 fps variation with the same load can be experienced between an up shot and a down shot. Also, how the rifle is carried and shouldered for a shot, how the round is chambered, etc. can greatly vary powder positioning in the case and cause large extreme spreads in velocity. By using a filler you negate all of these as the powder is consistently held back against the primer. Better and more consistent accuracy is the result.

I normally don't use fillers in any handgun cartridge load but sometimes there they are benificial in single shots and rifles. A good example would be the recent load development Ben did for shooting coons in trees with the .357 out of a rifle.

Larry Gibson

[Frank]

timtonya:

Any suggestions on powders?
Lyman shows 200 grain cast bullet, 36 grains IMR4320, 2301 fps, 51,700 CUP. It also says that load is potentially the most accurate load.
Lyman also shows 187 grain bullet, 26.3 grns SR4759, 2137 fps, 48,200 CUP. Also potentially most accurate load.

I don't know what kind of throat you have, but you can't let the bullet go below the neck. You can with a jacketed, but with cast you have a lube groove exposed. Maybe you can leave that groove unlubed. I don't know how you would do that. Maybe with a Star lubesizer.

[runfiverun]

larry pretty much summed up what my tests have indicated also, h-322 on down through about 4064 has always shot better for me with a filler.
once i get into the slower case filling powders it's not so much a necessity.
primers will make a difference also.
my serious 308 target load is the rcbs 165 silhouette from 4/6/90 alloy 28.5 grs imr 4895 a fed primer and filler.
my target practice load is the same boolit with a win primer and 17 grs of 2400 no filler.
i have come close to the 4895 load by upping the powder charge to 30 grs but did not have the same shot to shot consistency, i did have the same velocity however.
yeah filler is a pain but it is worth it.
somewhere on this board is a test me and runfiveruns little girl posted using h-322 with/without a filler in three different bbl length 7.65 argentines.
showing clearly the effects of consistent ignition, that a filler provides with the medium powders.

[Frank]

Now here's a Lyman 160 grn, 41.0 grns IMR4320, it gives a whopping 2649 fps. And that's the most accurate load for the bullet! [smilie=p

runfiverun:

man i hate to do this but many manuals do have
Good idea.

[timtonya]

Im planning on using jacketed 165gr bullets also. Should I stick with the same bullet weight for cast to make it easier? Or just make it easy on myself and just use jacketed? Lol. Seems cast is easier for pistol than rifle.

[catboat]

Any suggestions on powders?

16 grains H2400, or 16-20 grains of IMR 4759 are good powder ranges to consider.

[Larry Gibson]

Im planning on using jacketed 165gr bullets also. Should I stick with the same bullet weight for cast to make it easier? Or just make it easy on myself and just use jacketed? Lol. Seems cast is easier for pistol than rifle.

Cast is easier in a pistol that rifle because, with cast bullets of equal weight, the same velocities can be achieved with equal or better accuracy and with the same zero as with jacketed bullets. In rifles it is different because with most rifle cartridges with 12" and faster twists accuracy with cast bullets at comparble jacketed bullet velocities is very difficult if not improbablable. Thus many times the choice of powder, amount used and the zero will be different. However, there are many practical reasons to develop cast bullet loads for your rifle, absolutely no reason to stick with just jacketed bullets.

Larry Gibson

[timtonya]

Ya I have about 200# of lead. Id mostly be using cast to save money and for plinking rounds for target shooting.

[Frank]

Larry Gibson:

In rifles it is different because with most rifle cartridges with 12" and faster twists accuracy with cast bullets at comparble jacketed bullet velocities is very difficult if not improbablable.
Lyman uses a 1/12 twist in the reloading manual. And they show a few loads I mentioned. But I don't have any bullets to test or a 1/12 twist barrel. If a bullet is hard and a slow powder is used, I don't see why you can't have 3/8" groups and 2400+ fps with a well-designed cast bullet. Am I in dreamland?

[Texantothecore]

I come from the larger side of the caliber side othings, .50s and .45-70s and the 1 in 12" twist seems foreign to me. What bullets are they used with?

My guns are all 1 in 18 or 20.

[MBTcustom]

Hey Tex, thats because your shooting those wussy 500grain slugs! If you start slingin' 750's your boolits will be long enough to need a faster twist.:kidding::kidding::kidding:

[timtonya]

The savage im planning on buying has a 1/10 twist. Maybe the 180gr would work best?

[timtonya]

Also, what would you size the bullet to? .310?? .311??

[Frank]

timtonya:

Also, what would you size the bullet to? .310?? .311??
I would go just a little over what the barrel slugs at. If it slugged at .3075 then I would go .3085. I want a positive seal, but also want least deformity to maintain balance. You have to watch what you do with any boolit in the lubesizer. A push thru die is better, as suggested, then the lubesizer but you need to set-up the sizer die carefully and watch each bullet closely. If any metal is stripped on a side or even on opposite sides equally, it is failing.

[timtonya]

I found the rifle, a Ruger M77 Baskets Tactical. 1/10 twist, heavy barrel. Thinking the Lee 180gr sized to. 310

[timtonya]

I found the rifle, a Ruger M77 Hawkeye Tactical, 1/10 twist, heavy barrel. Im thinking the Lee 309-180gr sized to. 310

[kelbro]

It would be interesting to know if powder position sensitivity be offset with a mag primer? I'm sure some of you have tested that.

[mpmarty]

Years ago in a distant galaxy there was a thing called a tube primer. Literally a tube that extended to almost the base of the projectile and was supposed to cause better more consistent ignition.

[Mike H]

Larry Gibson:

Lyman uses a 1/12 twist in the reloading manual. And they show a few loads I mentioned. But I don't have any bullets to test or a 1/12 twist barrel. If a bullet is hard and a slow powder is used, I don't see why you can't have 3/8" groups and 2400+ fps with a well-designed cast bullet. Am I in dreamland?

Frank,
I think you are dreaming and forget those Lyman loads you are quoting. Around 28 to 30 grains of H4895 or Varget is a good range.
Mike.

[timtonya]

Which would work better for 180 lead and 168 hp-bt, Varget or h4895?